Cassie should win with prep. Without it, I believe she herself said she couldn't beat Slade in a fight.
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Actually, he admit's the only way he can beat Cassandra is by getting inside her head. With 3 days prep, Cain invest in a couple of ear plugs.
He also said that getting in Rose's head is the only way to beat her, when he has done it regardless of manipulation.
Cassie should also invest in physical augmentations in those 3 days, because she has said that Deathstroke is stronger, faster, and smarter than she is, on top of her inability to read his body.
Bottom line, characters say lots of things, and have a lot of contradicting showings against one another.
Cassie should win with prep. Without it, I believe she herself said she couldn't beat Slade in a fight.
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Actually, he admit's the only way he can beat Cassandra is by getting inside her head. With 3 days prep, Cain invest in a couple of ear plugs.
He also said that getting in Rose's head is the only way to beat her, when he has done it regardless of manipulation.
Cassie should also invest in physical augmentations in those 3 days, because she has said that Deathstroke is stronger, faster, and smarter than she is, on top of her inability to read his body.
Bottom line, characters say lots of things, and have a lot of contradicting showings against one another.
Her speed feats are superior to his. Although, he is stronger.
I actually think this fight is pretty close. The 3 days prep give the edge to Cassandra in my opinion.
She just got stomped by a 10 year old speedster, but the guy who regularly hits Flashes, dodges CM3 when he attacks him from behind and impresses Superman with his speed has inferior speed feats to Cassandra Cain? Maybe if you disregard all that, she does, but not otherwise.
I actually think this fight is pretty close. The 3 days prep give the edge to Cassandra in my opinion.
I'd be lying if I said I recall Cassie doing anything with prep.
I haven't actually read them so pardon me, but aren't the situations where he tagged Flashes more him directing them where he wanted them to go or making a good guess to where they would be in order to hit them?
I haven't actually read them so pardon me, but aren't the situations where he tagged Flashes more him directing them where he wanted them to go or making a good guess to where they would be in order to hit them?
Two of them (once in Identity Crisis in which he also used explosives, and another in his own on-going in which he targeted the ground in front of Bart Allen instead of him) are. But there are at least 4 more off the top of my head where he just does it. On one occasion he even scorned Wally and said he didn't even need his enhanced reflexes to hit him.
@Morpheus_: I'm not even sure what that means? If he didn't even need his enhanced reflexes to hit him, you'd think he's saying anyone should be able to do it. or am i overgeneralizing ?
@Morpheus_: I'm not even sure what that means? If he didn't even need his enhanced reflexes to hit him, you'd think he's saying anyone should be able to do it. or am i overgeneralizing ?
She just got stomped by a 10 year old speedster, but the guy who regularly hits Flashes, dodges CM3 when he attacks him from behind and impresses Superman with his speed has inferior speed feats to Cassandra Cain? Maybe if you disregard all that, she does, but not otherwise.
The way he fights the flashes doesn't involve him being anywhere near as fast as them. He just outsmarts them. Usually, this is done with prep.
I actually think this fight is pretty close. The 3 days prep give the edge to Cassandra in my opinion.
I'd be lying if I said I recall Cassie doing anything with prep.
1. How about studying all of Lady Shiva's moves for a year. Until she got to the point that she actually defeated one of the number 1 rank contenders for DC's top martial artist in a fair fight.
2. I think giving Supergirl a good fight through the use of Kryptonite and red sun lightsabers counts as a prep feat as well.
@one_upper: Luckily punches to the face work on him just fine. She also has a battle simulator that she uses to get better acquainted with enemies movements and battle tactics.
He just outsmarts them. Usually, this is done with prep.
You know, after the first dozen times, it grew tiresome to read this.
When has he hit the Flashes with prep except for Identity Crisis or A Child's Game? He has hit Wally and Bart 4 times without any prep being involved and I already mentioned the times where he used smarts to do so, summing up to 1, where he hit Bart by targetting the ground in front of him as opposed to Bart himself.
We have,
i) New Teen Titans # 2, where he hits Wally in a straight fight ii) New Teen Titans # 34, where he hits Wally again while he tries to blitz him and even mocks him in the process. iii) Deathstroke # 13, where Wally blitzes Slade, but Slade blasts him in return later on. That's after Deathstroke had fought Aquaman and Hal Jordan, so he was far from his peak, too. iv) Teen Titans v3 # 5, where Bart catches him by surprise and Deathstroke still kicks him away.
And there are the two examples with Superman and Freddy Freeman which I also mentioned previously.
How about studying all of Lady Shiva's moves for a year. Until she got to the point that she actually defeated one of the number 1 rank contenders for DC's top martial artist in a fair fight.
I have read the story. Let us apply the same technique here, and assume that in 3 days (and not 365) she would study Slade's moves. But she already said she can't, so that's out.
I think giving Supergirl a good fight through the use of Kryptonite and red sun lightsabers counts as a prep feat as well.
Giving a Kryptonian a tough fight considering their well known weaknesses is cool, but very much inapplicable against someone who doesn't. And she still lost in spite of all the conditions in her favour.
@Void_Paladin: That was'nt Cass prep,it was Nyssa or Talia.
To be fair, the issue wasn't really clear on who's prep that was. Still, I suppose it wouldn't be logical to credit her with a feat based on speculation.
@Morpheus_: Are you trying to say that Slade hits flashes in combat because he, at that time, moved faster than them?! I don't see how that wouldn't be considered PIS.
@Morpheus_: Are you trying to say that Slade hits flashes in combat because he, at that time, moved faster than them?! I don't see how that wouldn't be considered PIS.
Nah. I'm trying to say that what you said was inaccurate.
As far as my opinion on the matter, this is it: Slade regularly hits Flashes because he's extremely fast, and because they likely move at low Mach speeds, so it's within his ability to hit them. If they go all out, obviously he wouldn't be able to do it. But he evidently can hit them while they are moving with a degree of superspeed.
@Morpheus_: Are you trying to say that Slade hits flashes in combat because he, at that time, moved faster than them?! I don't see how that wouldn't be considered PIS.
Nah. I'm trying to say that what you said was inaccurate.
As far as my opinion on the matter, this is it: Slade regularly hits Flashes because he's extremely fast, and because they likely move at low Mach speeds, so it's within his ability to hit them. If they go all out, obviously he wouldn't be able to do it. But he evidently can hit them while they are moving with a degree of superspeed.
As a speed feat, this is ambiguous at best. We have no way of knowing how fast they were moving at the time. Add in the flashes history of being jobbed by much slower opponents, and you get an unreliable estimate of Wilson's speed.
Cassandra consistently dodges bullets in close range after they've been fired. Since bullets aren't known for holding back, this is a much more reliable testament to her speed. She's been depicted many times as moving to fast for mooks to see or even respond to in combat. I have yet to see this from Deathstroke.
Not in the least. You just choose to perceive it as such.
When a flash clocks what speed he's going at while fighting Slade let me know.
@Void_Paladin said: You know Slade has done that on several occasions, yes?
@Cassandra consistently dodges bullets in close range after they've been fired.
Name two. Scans? Proof? He just dodges the aim of the gun like every other street leveler.
She's been depicted many times as moving to fast for mooks to see or even respond to in combat Mooks? Ah, I changed my mind. Cassie is totally faster than Deathstroke.
When a flash clocks what speed he's going at while fighting Slade let me know.
When Cassandra Cain doesn't fail against a 10 year old speedster, let me know. Because Flashes don't produce afterimages, or Freddy Freeman didn't explicitly state Deathstroke matched the speed of Mercury in their fights.
Name two.
I'll give you four, off the top of my head.
Outsiders v3 # 22, he gives Roy Harper a free shot by standing still from a few feet distance. Roy fires two shots, Slade moves after they've been fired and dodges.
Outsider v3 # 29, three shooters target him with machine guns while he sits inside a limo, Deathstroke starts moving after they fire at him, closes the gap and slices their throats.
Titans v2 # 25, the assassin who targets Lex Luthor fires two bullets from close range, he reacts after they've been fired and even moves Luthor out of the way.
Deathstroke Annual # 4 - Vigilante has him at point blank, shoots, and Deathstroke dodges and appears behind her before she can realise what happened.
@Morpheus_: Yo, Morph, totally off topic but do you post at superherochat under the name "Morpheus?" Thanks. And fight the good fight. Deathstroke's awesome.
@Morpheus_: Hmm, those are impressive. I has under the impression that speed would be her main advantage over him, due to his superior strength, healing factor, and her inability to read his body.
You've proven your point. Unless someone comes in with a better argument for Cassandra, Slade wins this one.
@Morpheus_: Yo, Morph, totally off topic but do you post at superherochat under the name "Morpheus?" Thanks.
I am sorry to report that I do not.
And fight the good fight. Deathstroke's awesome.
Indeed so.
@Void_Paladin said:
@Morpheus_: Hmm, those are impressive. I has under the impression that speed would be her main advantage over him, due to his superior strength, healing factor, and her inability to read his body.
You've proven your point. Unless someone comes in with a better argument for Cassandra, Slade wins this one.
It's all good, man. I had a very thorough discussion on the topic with Gambler a few months back, check it out if you wish.
I think it's a toss-up, personally. Both tend to fluctuate a lot depending on who's writing.
@Morpheus_: True enough, Cassandra getting jobbed by Grayson was pretty bad. Good debate. I like discussing things with people who don't resort to name calling within the first couple of post. Hope to catch you again in future threads.
@Void_Paladin: I am appalled that my Hulk/Thor thread has degenerated so much. Yet it gets more traffic than the threads I put my heart and soul into. BTW you are awesome to talk to.
I wish I could discuss with friends rather than argue with enemies, but Thor/Hulk took off with over 2 thousand views while my others go unresponded to. The ones that could lead to good discussion.
@Void_Paladin: I am appalled that my Hulk/Thor thread has degenerated so much. Yet it gets more traffic than the threads I put my heart and soul into.
Once you've been around here for a while, you'll notice that's not novel. The old grudge match-ups always attract lots of views and posts, even though that's rarely for the better.
@Void_Paladin said: Cassandra consistently dodges bullets in close range after they've been fired.
Actually, if we're going by consistency she's shown to be in the "very fast but not superhuman" range, which is why she couldn't defend herself against Batman when she lost her body reading, instead of being able to dodge him with superspeed.
@Void_Paladin said: Since bullets aren't known for holding back, this is a much more reliable testament to her speed.
Bullets are the biggest jobbers in comics. And there is absolutely zero difference in objectivity between a fighter dodging another fighter and a fighter dodging a bullet in comics, since both are the result of a writer's imagination.
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