Cassandra Cain vs Daredevil & Elektra

@Vance Astro said:

Daredevil & Elektra together would curbstomp Cassandra.She would have a hard time beating either of them solo.

Agreed

@Hohenheim_of_light said:

@Stronger said:

@Hohenheim_of_light said:

@Stronger:It's in there feats, show Daredevil being able to kick through 3 inches of solid quartz, or show Daredevil being able to outpace a bullet, until you do than she's physically superior, and yes she's a better fighter than he is, she's also mastered more styles.

The fact that she has mastered more styles doesnt mean anything.The strengh of the will makes the warrior ,not martial arts.I know that because I know martial arts.

DD is a bullet dodger and has shown great strengh feats

No it doesn't, the fact that she has better skill based feats is what makes her a better fighter.

Dodging bullets is nothing compared to literally outpacing one, and how about you show these great strength feats you're talking about? Before you try showing the limo feat, this is a fight not a weight lifting contest, show Daredevil's striking power otherwise I accept your concession.

You know shit about martial arts...

Here is a scan with Sabretooth.

I remind you Sabretooth is superhuman.

I feel the tension rising, lol

@HBKTimHBK said:

I feel the tension rising, lol

:P LOL Not at all.

Dude we didnt come here to fight each other.We came here to argue peacefully,only as long as others do the same.

@Vance Astro said:

@HBKTimHBK said:

She was born fighting, he wasn't, she didn't even learn how to speak because she was focusing on training and fighting so much. I don't see the feats in martial arts that show that he can hang with her, she is just much more experienced then he is.

1.Being "born fighting" doesn't mean anything.The God of War, Ares is by nature a warrior and has millenniums more experience and training than both characters and Daredevil is STILL a better fighter than him. 2.You can stop running down her life's story.I read Batgirl v2 & v3. 3.How much Daredevil have you read? You seem to be downplaying him.The idea that he can't "hang" with her is nonsense.If he can "hang" with Iron Fist,Wolverine,Captain America,Black Panther,and the rest of Marvel's top Martial artists.I don't see how you can say he can't hang with Cassandra.

Number 3 is the best sentence I have ever saw in th whole site.Thats what I am trying to explain.

@Vance Astro said:

@HBKTimHBK said:

She was born fighting, he wasn't, she didn't even learn how to speak because she was focusing on training and fighting so much. I don't see the feats in martial arts that show that he can hang with her, she is just much more experienced then he is.

1.Being "born fighting" doesn't mean anything.The God of War, Ares is by nature a warrior and has millenniums more experience and training than both characters and Daredevil is STILL a better fighter than him. 2.You can stop running down her life's story.I read Batgirl v2 & v3. 3.How much Daredevil have you read? You seem to be downplaying him.The idea that he can't "hang" with her is nonsense.If he can "hang" with Iron Fist,Wolverine,Captain America,Black Panther,and the rest of Marvel's top Martial artists.I don't see how you can say he can't hang with Cassandra.

I haven't read much of Daredevil for quite some time. I'll just stop debating for now because I need to get some new information back up anyway.

@Stronger:Dude he beat Sabretooth before he had any established powers, Cassandra would of wiped the floor with him back then too.

@Stronger said:

@HBKTimHBK said:

@Stronger said:

@Hohenheim_of_light said:

@Stronger:It's in there feats, show Daredevil being able to kick through 3 inches of solid quartz, or show Daredevil being able to outpace a bullet, until you do than she's physically superior, and yes she's a better fighter than he is, she's also mastered more styles.

The fact that she has mastered more styles doesnt mean anything.The strengh of the will makes the warrior ,not martial arts.I know that because I know martial arts.

DD is a bullet dodger and has shown great strengh feats

He can not dodge bullets like she does, and she is way too fast for him. Also she is a far better martial artist, much more experienced. And believe me kicking through solid quartz, or punching someone so fast and so hard for them to almost instantly cough up blood, Daredevil is good, but Cassandra is one of the best martial artists in comics. Not the best, but one of the best.

I dont think she is more expierienced.Daredevil has been training for decades with Stick and the Hand

I'm pretty sure he didn't train for more than a decade with Stick, originally he already finished law school when his father was murdered, although I think Man without Fear retconned it.

Cassandra Cain wins

She has beaten and stalemated better fighters like Batman, Lady Shiva, Connor Hawke, & Deathstroke. She is also much faster and seriously doubt that either Elektra or Daredevil would be able to lay a hand on her since enhanced fighters like Deathstroke struggle to. Heck, even when she was a kid she was landing blows on Bronze Tiger.

@Stronger: Lose the profanity.

Anyway, Sabretooth was barely superhuman in those scans you posted. That was his base level.

This is really sad to see most people downplaying Elektra, firstly Elektra is a telepath and has shown the ability to talk inside people’s head. Latest example would be when she talked into Daredevil before he was almost dead in Shadowland. Now think of it this way, as impressive as Cassandra might be, can she really fight back when he is hearing random voices in her head?? Would that not distract her enough for Daredevil to knock her out??

@Hohenheim_of_light said:

@Stronger said:

@HBKTimHBK said:

@Stronger said:

@Hohenheim_of_light said:

@Stronger:It's in there feats, show Daredevil being able to kick through 3 inches of solid quartz, or show Daredevil being able to outpace a bullet, until you do than she's physically superior, and yes she's a better fighter than he is, she's also mastered more styles.

The fact that she has mastered more styles doesnt mean anything.The strengh of the will makes the warrior ,not martial arts.I know that because I know martial arts.

DD is a bullet dodger and has shown great strengh feats

He can not dodge bullets like she does, and she is way too fast for him. Also she is a far better martial artist, much more experienced. And believe me kicking through solid quartz, or punching someone so fast and so hard for them to almost instantly cough up blood, Daredevil is good, but Cassandra is one of the best martial artists in comics. Not the best, but one of the best.

I dont think she is more expierienced.Daredevil has been training for decades with Stick and the Hand

I'm pretty sure he didn't train for more than a decade with Stick, originally he already finished law school when his father was murdered, although I think Man without Fear retconned it.

Before Stick he was trainning with his fathers equipment and then he trained with the Hand for some time.

Before Stick he was trainning with his fathers equipment and then he trained with the Hand for some time.

@Vance Astro said:

@Stronger said:

Before Stick he was trainning with his fathers equipment and then he trained with the Hand for some time.

You must be thinking of Elektra.Daredevil never trained with the Hand. The only Ninja clan he ever trained with is the Chaste which is Stick's clan.

Correct.Thanks because I had forgotten the name of Sticks clan....

@Killemall said:

This is really sad to see most people downplaying Elektra, firstly Elektra is a telepath and has shown the ability to talk inside people’s head. Latest example would be when she talked into Daredevil before he was almost dead in Shadowland. Now think of it this way, as impressive as Cassandra might be, can she really fight back when he is hearing random voices in her head?? Would that not distract her enough for Daredevil to knock her out??

I don't think anyone's underestimating her, it's more like people are overestimating her. I'm very skeptical on her telepathic abilities since she's used them once in a blue moon and never uses them against a credible opponent, mostly canon fodder. If she constnatly used these abilities and used them effectively than she would be at the top of the street level food chain, but that's not the case.

Hmmm...this is a strange thread. After reading through it, it seems like the people in the "pro-Cassandra" camp are framing the battle as if Daredevil and Elektra will take turns fighting her individually (i.e., like stupid henchmen in an action movie fighting against the hero). Given the way that the OP presented the scenario, they'd clearly coordinate their actions against Cass.

She has no chance against them. Her performances against the top martial artists in the DC universe are mostly irrelevant. Why? Because nowhere in her comics has she demonstrated the ability to defeat two top tier DC martial artists coming at her AT THE SAME TIME.

People who keep citing her wins over Lady Shiva, Batman, etc. need to answer the following question: Would Cass win against TWO Batmans? TWO Lady Shivas?

No, she wouldn't. Her one on one fights with top DC martial artists are competitive enough to suggest a second opponent would be too much for her. Especially since her move-reading wouldn't be as helpful in a 2 on 1 situation. After all, you can't move-read a person you can't see. And Cass doesn't have eyes in the back of her head. She wouldn't be able to continuously/consistently track two elite martial artists coming at her from different directions at the same time.

And note how I haven't even factored in Elektra's meta-human ability. There's already a ton of evidence that DD and Elektra could beat her with just martial arts. Once Elektra's powers get added to the mix (ability to see the future, ability to put voices in her opponent's head, some telekinesis, etc.), this thread begins to look like a spite threat.

Daredevil and Elektra, 10/10

Team stomps. Daredevil alone is a hard enough fight for her.

Cassandra is a prodigy, barring extravagant characters like certain versions of Val Armorr or Batman 1 Million she might just be the most skilled martial artist in pre-Flashpoint continuity. Even so, while individually she would hold a distinct edge over both of them, together they should overwhelm her.

@morpheus_: I believe that depends on if we choose to use her newer showings from Rebirth. With those she could very well beat both of them at the same time.

@chimeroid: What has she done in Rebirth that puts her abover her new Earth counterpart and makes her good enough to beat these two at the same time?

The team wins easily. Cassandra can defeat them individually but not together.

@chimeroid: Just with Rebirth showings she would lose. She's done nothing in Rebirth to suggest she's anywhere near as skilled or as fast as she used to be. Pre-Flashpoint Cassandra was a master of every form of combat by the age of eight. Also, this thread was clearly made with the intention of including pre-N52 Cassandra.

what i aimed at was the combined feats of PFP and Rebirth. Meaning that she would have all the skill and speed of then, and the silly showings of her beating hundreds of assassins and then beating Shiva, who was just done beating the batfamily.

@chimeroid: Post-FP Bat family are not as skilled as they used to be, with Nightwing being a notable exception. I'm currently in the process of reading every Batman appearance post-Flashpoint and his pure skill has taken a steep dip, while his physicals are massively enhanced compared to his post-Crisis self. I don't believe beating hundreds of assassins is outside of pre-FP Cassie's purview and via speed and body reading alone she should take Rebirth Shiva, not even accounting sheer MA mastery. Also, Shiva is very imposing if we limit her strictly to Rebirth Showings, her appearances in Nightwing, RHatO and Birds of Prey are not as impressive.

@morpheus_: What do you think is the reason for such a huge increase in physicals?. Is it just armour or is he also enhanced in some way?.

@brucerogers: Armor and (mostly) writing. You could feasibly justify it with him being healed by Dionysium in Snyder's Endgame, but he has many showings withstanding a barrage of direct superhuman hits long before that occurred.

@morpheus_: Ahh. Gracias.

The team wins.

Well said

team murders cassie

Could go either way.

Team.

Team stomps.

Team absolutely crumblestomps. Mismatch

Cassandra wins with some difficulty, she could beat any single one of them easily but together they could give her some trouble.

@unlimited1: What are you basing that on?

TBH I think Elektra by herself is more than enough to content if not beat Cassie, with DD they take it without much trouble.

Team.

@brucerogers: Skill, speed and body reading.

@unlimited1: Daredevil has that too. He is a hard fight for her by himself.

@morpheus_: I think post flashpoint they focused more on bruces armor (as you said) and his tech/wits. Overall he's more diverse in a battle than pre flashpoint. I agree skill wise, he's taken a hit, but so has every member of the batfamily. Truthfully it doesn't help that King writes batman who writes him like a tanking brute and tynion writes the family, and his power levels are all over the place. cass fights 200 ninjas but struggles with azrael or five armed "batmen"?

In batman's case, i think the loss in skill is counter balanced by increased gear, especially under snyder and tomasi. I'd even say he's more dangerous than before, just a worse physically skilled fighter.

But on topic, cass could win in a close to semi close fight against one, against both she is going to lose. imo at least.

@brucerogers: From what I know, Daredevil has radar sense, not body reading. He is skilled, but Cassandra was trained from a much younger age and has beaten better martial artists (lady Shiva for example). From the feats I saw Daredevil doesn't seem that impressive, but if you know the character well you are welcome to post some good feats.

The team wins.

From what I know, Daredevil has radar sense, not body reading.

Daredevil's enhanced senses enables him to read his opponent's next move based on their sweat, heartbeat, muscle twitches etc and his radar sense increases his perception time. He is a move reader in his own right.

He is skilled, but Cassandra was trained from a much younger age and has beaten better martial artists (lady Shiva for example). From the feats I saw Daredevil doesn't seem that impressive, but if you know the character well you are welcome to post some good feats.

Just out of curiosity what feats have you seen from him?. Matt has beaten or stalemated Captain America, Winter Soldier, Bullseye, Elektra, Punisher, Black Panther and has done respectively well against Iron Fist too. To say he is not impressive is just plain false.

He may not beat Cass for a majority, but she most definitely isn't stomping him and honestly speaking, she isn't really out of his league in terms of anything.

Cassie beats Matt for a majority and Elektra gives her a tough fight. I'm not sure if she can actually beat them both, though.

@brucerogers: Any solid fighter can read his opponent to some extent, but Daredevil's ability to do so pales in comparison to that of Cassandra, its not even listed as one of his abilities. The difference is skill is also quite large, as Cassandra was trained by some of the best fighters in the world, beaten Shiva who is regarded by many as the best fighter in the world and fought hundreds of assassins single handedly, even batman admits he cant beat her. When did daredevil fought Iron Fist? He is the only one on your list the possesses this level of martial art.

Matt could take her maybe (3-4/10)

Adding Elektra makes this a mismatch.

@unlimited1: Any solid fighter can read his opponent to some extent, but Daredevil's ability to do so pales in comparison to that of Cassandra, its not even listed as one of his abilities.

Are you honestly dismissing this ability just because it has not been listed as such?. His actual feats seem to say otherwise. And I hope I don't have to explain to you how Daredevil's enhanced senses means he can smell, hear or perceive (so to speak) far better than an ordinary fighter.

As as an example, here is him move reading an entire room of hand ninjas before any of them can even make a move, when he was suffering from amnesia and fighting purely on instinct and muscle memory.

From Daredevil vol 1 #377

What are you even basing Cass's superiority from?. Even if you want to argue that she has better move reading, it's not going to be a game changing advantage against an opponent like him.

The difference is skill is also quite large, as Cassandra was trained by some of the best fighters in the world,

I have done my fair share of reading about her and needless to say, you are exaggerating the skill gap a little too much. Being trained by the best fighters in the world is not a feat. Unless you think the Question is a top tier martial artist just because he was trained by Lady Shiva too. Feats performed by the character are all that matter.

beaten Shiva who is regarded by many as the best fighter in the world and fought hundreds of assassins single handedly,

And Daredevil has thrown down with the best of his universe too and even beaten some of them. Worth noting that besides skill, some of them even have a stat advantage over him. Fighting multiple assassins is something even Matt has done, like the time when he took on 107 Yakuza hitmen, with half of them amped with a drug that gives it's users low level superhuman stats. With weapons to boot.

even batman admits he cant beat her.

I know. But that does not mean she can just fodderize him or anything.

When did daredevil fought Iron Fist?

They had a brief struggle during Miller's DD run, where neither of them could get the upper hand on the other. And they fought again during Daredevil vol 2 #87, where Danny was subbing for Daredevil while the former was in prison, unbeknownst to him. Due to not recognising each other they had a fight with DD getting the upper hand until Danny started using his IF, which gave away his identity.

He is the only one on your list the possesses this level of martial art.

You do know that there is much more to a combatant than just fighting skill right?. Most of the guys he has fought would stalemate to outright beat Shiva due to superior stats and their own skill to complement it.