I never claimed she had superspeed, at least not the kind of speed you think is encapsulated in the word "superspeed". She has enhanced speed to the point where she is noticeably faster than peak human level.
That is essentially the definition of superspeed.
Please point where I said she had superspeed. I don't have to explain how they are tied because they are written that way, whether you think it makes sense or not. The disappearance or reappearance of once caused the disappearance or reappearance of the other. There might be no logical explanation, but that is how they are written. And that will not change any time soon.
Have you ever heard of Occam's Razor?
Here is your hypothesis. Cassandra has speed that is superhuman - i.e. beyond the speed of someone like Batman, who is pretty much as quick as a normal guy can be - despite her not having a metagene or any in-story narrative that supports that. In addition to that, she also has the ability to read someone's moves. However, despite both of these advantages, she never demonstrates a speed advantage when fighting A-list people, and does not hit them at will, which would be expected for someone with both a speed advantage and the ability to read moves. Additionally, when she lost her ability to read moves, she also somehow lost her speed advantage, despite this also not being supported by any in-story explanation and despite you not being able to explain it either.
My hypothesis: Cassandra is about as fast as Batman and Nightwing. She is not as good at defensive fighting but compensates for this with move reading. However, when she lost her move reading, she was unable to defend herself nearly as well.
Which explanation is simpler? Which makes more sense? Which doesn't need any mental gymnastics in order to explain? Which meshes better with the comics themselves? Your hypothesis calls for a magical loss of an attribute that is never mentioned, mine does not. If Cassandra had both superior speed AND move reading, she should be dominating Batman, which she clearly does not.
I didn't respond to your post about Fat Cobra et al because to my knowledge, he has never demonstrated speed beyond Captain America, and we are talkign about a supposed speed advantage between Cassandra and Cap.
Also, you are ignoring the fact that Cap ALSO has feats of dodging bullets after they are fired - just like Cassandra. So either way, there is no speed advantage for her.
Sure it is. But that's not what you meant, is it? Superspeed covers a wide range of movement levels beyond peak human. I said she had one level that was above peak human, but you claimed that an argument was being made that she had a much higher level of speed; your precise words were "moving in slow motion compared to her". No one was saying that. Have you ever heard of a straw man argument? All you've been doing is attempting to refute one position by grossly overstating it to a level that is easier to refute, because that level is an improbable scenario and everyone knows it.
Have you ever heard of Occam's Razor?
Here is your hypothesis. Cassandra has speed that is superhuman - i.e. beyond the speed of someone like Batman, who is pretty much as quick as a normal guy can be - despite her not having a metagene or any in-story narrative that supports that. In addition to that, she also has the ability to read someone's moves. However, despite both of these advantages, she never demonstrates a speed advantage when fighting A-list people, and does not hit them at will, which would be expected for someone with both a speed advantage and the ability to read moves. Additionally, when she lost her ability to read moves, she also somehow lost her speed advantage, despite this also not being supported by any in-story explanation and despite you not being able to explain it either.
My hypothesis: Cassandra is about as fast as Batman and Nightwing. She is not as good at defensive fighting but compensates for this with move reading. However, when she lost her move reading, she was unable to defend herself nearly as well.
Which explanation is simpler? Which makes more sense? Which doesn't need any mental gymnastics in order to explain? Which meshes better with the comics themselves? Your hypothesis calls for a magical loss of an attribute that is never mentioned, mine does not. If Cassandra had both superior speed AND move reading, she should be dominating Batman, which she clearly does not.
I didn't respond to your post about Fat Cobra et al because to my knowledge, he has never demonstrated speed beyond Captain America, and we are talkign about a supposed speed advantage between Cassandra and Cap.
Also, you are ignoring the fact that Cap ALSO has feats of dodging bullets after they are fired - just like Cassandra. So either way, there is no speed advantage for her.
Have you ever heard of the phrase "comic book logic"? You're attempting to reconcile discrepancies in comic books with real world logic, when those discrepancies are meant to be explained with comic book logic. Therein lies the fault in your hypotheses. You say Batman is "pretty much as quick as a normal guy can be"? Which is weird, because in Robin: Year One, Bruce himself says Dick is faster and more agile than him. Nightwing being the agile member of the Batclan is an element that is brought up again and again. Just as Cassandra's speed is brought up an as element of her character again and again. She has moved fast enough that people who clocked her with CCTV cameras ranked her as metahuman:
How's that for in-story narrative? Which begs the question, how much of Cass have you actually read? Because nowhere in any comic has anyone ever mistaken Batman or Nightwing for metas. In individual fights, Slade has wiped the floor with Batman, the only time Bruce won a fight with Slade was when his back was turned, and even then Slade was kicking him around prior to that. In her own fight with Slade, he fired four shots at her, she dodged them all. And this is a man who shot down the Atom with a laser pointer on the move. That should give you some idea of his marksmanship. She did better against Slade than Bruce or Dick have ever done, considering they have both been tagged repeatedly by Slade. Cass is only Nightwing level? Dick himself stated that Slade could kill him without even breaking a sweat? By what parameter is Cass at Nightwing's level? She also beat Ravager in a fight, and Rose is an enhanced human who has kept up with multiple metas including Slade in individual fights. No mental gymnastics necessary.
Yeah, Fat Cobra and co. dwarf Cap, this should be common knowledge. I don't really see why anyone would think otherwise after reading the stuff he's been in, but whatever.
So do Batman, Nightwing and dozens of other street levelers. What's your point? Bullets are the biggest jobbers in comics. But Cass has dodged bullets from a gun that was about 20 inches away from her face.
@Vance Astro: I'm not too sure about the more intelligent part, or about her being obviously better. Captain America has been around much longer and definitely has more feats and feats that may match her in each category, the problem is I haven't actually read his every appearance so I can't actually which feats are just pis and which are actually solid.
Having more feats isn't the same as having BETTER feats and I'm not really seeing why people think they can compare their combat feats.It doesn't matter how long Cap has been around her feats are just of a higher caliber.I haven't read his every appearance either but i've read a great deal of his comics and he has problems beating characters that wouldn't even TOUCH Cassandra.
I didn't say his feats were better, only that he has feats to match the things she's done and I'm not really talking about just h2h skills when I say that.
@Cochise: I can't believe you are still saying she doesn't have meta-human level speed. Let me walk you through this...
1. Slade has meta-human speed. Cassandra cannot body read Slade. Cassandra has better showings against Deathstroke than Batman and Nightwing.
2. Cassandra cannot body read a sniper rifle bullet as it's coming for her. Cassandra let the bullet get within inches of her head THEN proceeded to dodge. That requires meta-human speed.
3. None of this matters because she body reading has NOT been taken away for this fight. So I don't see the point in arguing this.
I didn't say his feats were better, only that he has feats to match the things she's done and I'm not really talking about just h2h skills when I say that.
I don't know about strength because Cap has some ridiculous strength feats but when it comes to speed she definitely has him beat feat wise.
@Vance Astro: I agree, but would you consider him running passed bullets to be a pis feat or something he's actually capable of? If that's something he can do normally I would say his speed is comparable to hers, she's definitely quicker than he is though.
@Vance Astro: I agree, but would you consider him running passed bullets to be a pis feat or something he's actually capable of? If that's something he can do normally I would say his speed is comparable to hers, she's definitely quicker than he is though.
I didn't see any scans where he "ran passed bullets".I saw him move from the spot where the shooter was shooting which pretty much every street leveler can do.
@Vance Astro: I remember seeing a scan where he was standing away from the shooter and runs from the other side of the room in front of the bullets with his shield to protect someone else from getting shot. It's been a while since I've seen it so that may not be how it happened.
Sure it is. But that's not what you meant, is it? Superspeed covers a wide range of movement levels beyond peak human. I said she had one level that was above peak human, but you claimed that an argument was being made that she had a much higher level of speed; your precise words were "moving in slow motion compared to her". No one was saying that. Have you ever heard of a straw man argument? All you've been doing is attempting to refute one position by grossly overstating it to a level that is easier to refute, because that level is an improbable scenario and everyone knows it.
You are the one who is saying she has speed beyond a peak human, not me. I am not refuting your claim by grossly overstating it, I am refuting your claim by using what happened in the comics.
Have you ever heard of the phrase "comic book logic"? You're attempting to reconcile discrepancies in comic books with real world logic, when those discrepancies are meant to be explained with comic book logic.
No, comic book logic is Superman lifting up a battleship and it not collapsing under its own weight. Once again, for old times sake:
-if Cassandra had metahuman speed (is that term OK with you?) AND her body reading, she would be hitting Batman and other A-listers at will. She can't.
-when she lost the ability to read moves, her ability to fight was crippled.
-if she had metahuman speed, she would be able to dodge punches without her move reading ability.
-there is literally nothing to say that her supposed metahuman speed is dependent on her move reading, it is simply something you fabricated.
You have no response for this, just a theory that her metahuman speed is somehow tied to her body reading because it supports your argument.
She has moved fast enough that people who clocked her with CCTV cameras ranked her as metahuman:
Those scans basically say she is the word's best multitasker. It sasys her individual moves are borderline human, i.e. CBPH. it says he can do a bunch of things that other highly trained people can, just do several of them at once. impressive? yes. Metahuman speed? No.
Which begs the question, how much of Cass have you actually read? Her entire solo run.
Because nowhere in any comic has anyone ever mistaken Batman or Nightwing for metas. Actually, it isn't uncommon for people in story to say that about Batman. However, you are the only one who is mistaking Cassandra for a metahuman.
In individual fights, Slade has wiped the floor with Batman, the only time Bruce won a fight with Slade was when his back was turned, and even then Slade was kicking him around prior to that. In her own fight with Slade, he fired four shots at her, she dodged them all. And this is a man who shot down the Atom with a laser pointer on the move. That should give you some idea of his marksmanship. She did better against Slade than Bruce or Dick have ever done, considering they have both been tagged repeatedly by Slade. Cass is only Nightwing level? Dick himself stated that Slade could kill him without even breaking a sweat? By what parameter is Cass at Nightwing's level? She also beat Ravager in a fight, and Rose is an enhanced human who has kept up with multiple metas including Slade in individual fights. No mental gymnastics necessary.
Slade's power level is all over the place. This is a guy who has tagged Kid Flash on multiple occasions. Wouldn't this be a low showing for him? Of course it is. That being said, she held him off for all of four pages in their first fight. In their next fight, she admitted he was playing with her. This doesn't make her seem like the dominant fighter. And Slade's most dominant victory over Batman left him so battered and injured he went down to a nameless goon several pages later, specifically saying the fight with Batman left him wasted. When Nightwing and Cassandra fought in Teen Titans, they stalemated each other. When Batman and Cassandra fought in her series, they stalemated each other. When she briefly tussled with Connor Hawke, they stalemated each other. Where is the metahuman speed? Not in the comics.
Let me ask, when Cap keeps up in terms of speed with people like Spider-Man, Iron Fist, Shang Chi, etc.; when he dodges bullets; when he does these things, it's PIS/WIS. when Cassandra does them, it's "consistent." What bias.
Yeah, Fat Cobra and co. dwarf Cap, this should be common knowledge. I don't really see why anyone would think otherwise after reading the stuff he's been in, but whatever.
I'll just ignore this because I'm going to assume you don't have scans of Fat Cobra and co. moving at speeds that are beyond Cap.
So do Batman, Nightwing and dozens of other street levelers. What's your point? Bullets are the biggest jobbers in comics. But Cass has dodged bullets from a gun that was about 20 inches away from her face.
Congratulations! You contradicted yourself in the span of two sentences. If bullets are the biggest jobbers in comics, and we should throw out Cap's bullet dodging feats, then we should also throw out Cassandra's, considering how she does not overwhelm other A-list martial artists with her speed.
Cap wins after a good fight the majority of the time.
Cap wins largely due to the shield. Without the shield I'm guessing he would figure out Cass's move reading and then try to overcome it. I'm gonna go 6/10 for Cap just barely if it's purely H2H. Since when did Cass have superhuman speed? I always thought she anticipated the path of the bullet and gets out of the way, like with her move reading.
@Vance Astro: I found it. I had to do some digging. It's not like I remembered it though.
damn! impressive...
@kajitatsu said:
Cap wins largely due to the shield. Without the shield I'm guessing he would figure out Cass's move reading and then try to overcome it. I'm gonna go 6/10 for Cap just barely if it's purely H2H. Since when did Cass have superhuman speed? I always thought she anticipated the path of the bullet and gets out of the way, like with her move reading.
Cap wins largely due to the shield. Without the shield I'm guessing he would figure out Cass's move reading and then try to overcome it. I'm gonna go 6/10 for Cap just barely if it's purely H2H. Since when did Cass have superhuman speed? I always thought she anticipated the path of the bullet and gets out of the way, like with her move reading.
Cap has had trouble beating worse fighters than Cain with his shield.I'm not really understading why people keep acting like the Shield is the Infinity Gauntlet.
Care to elaborate? I'd agree that a scan stating something wouldn't mean anything if the character didn't have the feats/skills etc to back up said statement, but the fact of the matter is that Cassie does have the feats to back that up.
They could gauge her speed but I'm not sure how they can judge her strength if she's only hitting people. The term Baseline doesn't even make sense to me. Baseline means a reference point, I'm not sure if Baseline is average or means peak... or something completely different.
They could gauge her speed but I'm not sure how they can judge her strength if she's only hitting people. The term Baseline doesn't even make sense to me. Baseline means a reference point, I'm not sure if Baseline is average or means peak... or something completely different.
@_Whisper_ said:
@difficlus said:
@_Whisper_: That scan doesn't mean anything...
Care to elaborate? I'd agree that a scan stating something wouldn't mean anything if the character didn't have the feats/skills etc to back up said statement, but the fact of the matter is that Cassie does have the feats to back that up.
@Vance Astro said:
@difficlus said:
@_Whisper_: That scan doesn't mean anything...
Sure it does.
What is mean is there is no point arguing on whether Cain has superhuman speed, karate kid is still human and does really extraordinary things sometimes. Human in DC is different from human in real life. Heck even someone like batman who is human with human speed can hang with people like Deathstroke so the label of been meta or human or meta speed is not relevant.
Are you joking? Cap would have to be Slingshot or Quicksilver to do that.3 bullets are fired as he's pretty much next to the shooter but somehow he gets in front of them before they hit the target..it's obviously PIS.
Are you joking? Cap would have to be Slingshot or Quicksilver to do that.3 bullets are fired as he's pretty much next to the shooter but somehow he gets in front of them before they hit the target..it's obviously PIS.
Cain has done something like that...and you can see the bullet but hmm...yeah seems to much for both of them. At the same time i'm more inclined to believe Cain is capable of this since she has danced between individual bullets right?
Cain has done something like that...and you can see the bullet but hmm...yeah seems to much for both of them. At the same time i'm more inclined to believe Cain is capable of this since she has danced between individual bullets right?
Cassandra. She has a better track record in combat then Cap does.
Are you kidding? His record smashes hers. He's equal if not superior in skill, outstats her, and has a great defensive weapon. He easily takes the majority.
Cap has had more losses and fewer wins against skilled human opponents then Cassandra has. He's been ko'd by Daredevil and Taskmaster, Kingpin at one point was beating the crap out of him until Redwing saved him, Crossbones has smacked him around.
He isn't her equal in skill, Iron Fist has pretty much confirmed this when he stated that Captain America has a basic form. Cap has a tendency to overpower characters rather then outskill them. He even admitted recently that Black Panther was his equal in combat and he sure as hell isn't Cassandra's equal in skill either.
Captain America has never beaten a class 7 fighter before. He's beaten solid class 6 fighters like Bucky Crossbones and Daredevil but never a 7 like Iron Fist. Batgirl has defeated Shiva, who would easily be considered a class 7 by Marvel standards. She had Deathstroke on the ropes in their first encounter, she made Bruce cough up blood before he even realized he was hit. Cap outstatting her is debateable also, she's shown more impressive speed feats then Captain America such as outpacing a bullet, kicking through 3 inches of quartz, moving so fast that she couldn't be caught on camera. Cap is the stronger of the two but weather he hits harder is a different story.
Cassandra. She has a better track record in combat then Cap does.
Are you kidding? His record smashes hers. He's equal if not superior in skill, outstats her, and has a great defensive weapon. He easily takes the majority.
Cap has had more losses and fewer wins against skilled human opponents then Cassandra has. He's been ko'd by Daredevil and Taskmaster, Kingpin at one point was beating the crap out of him until Redwing saved him, Crossbones has smacked him around.
He isn't her equal in skill, Iron Fist has pretty much confirmed this when he stated that Captain America has a basic form. Cap has a tendency to overpower characters rather then outskill them. He even admitted recently that Black Panther was his equal in combat and he sure as hell isn't Cassandra's equal in skill either.
Captain America has never beaten a class 7 fighter before. He's beaten solid class 6 fighters like Bucky Crossbones and Daredevil but never a 7 like Iron Fist. Batgirl has defeated Shiva, who would easily be considered a class 7 by Marvel standards. She had Deathstroke on the ropes in their first encounter, she made Bruce cough up blood before he even realized he was hit. Cap outstatting her is debateable also, she's shown more impressive speed feats then Captain America such as outpacing a bullet, kicking through 3 inches of quartz, moving so fast that she couldn't be caught on camera. Cap is the stronger of the two but weather he hits harder is a different story.
I'd give Cap a 2-3/10 maybe a 4 at the most.
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"Cap has never beaten a class 7 fighter before"
In the first set of scans Iron fist was exhausted from using the iron fist twice and cap did not win the second fight and wolverine was feral. You didn't upload the full fight with wolverine.
Cassandra. She has a better track record in combat then Cap does.
Are you kidding? His record smashes hers. He's equal if not superior in skill, outstats her, and has a great defensive weapon. He easily takes the majority.
Cap has had more losses and fewer wins against skilled human opponents then Cassandra has. He's been ko'd by Daredevil and Taskmaster, Kingpin at one point was beating the crap out of him until Redwing saved him, Crossbones has smacked him around.
He isn't her equal in skill, Iron Fist has pretty much confirmed this when he stated that Captain America has a basic form. Cap has a tendency to overpower characters rather then outskill them. He even admitted recently that Black Panther was his equal in combat and he sure as hell isn't Cassandra's equal in skill either.
Captain America has never beaten a class 7 fighter before. He's beaten solid class 6 fighters like Bucky Crossbones and Daredevil but never a 7 like Iron Fist. Batgirl has defeated Shiva, who would easily be considered a class 7 by Marvel standards. She had Deathstroke on the ropes in their first encounter, she made Bruce cough up blood before he even realized he was hit. Cap outstatting her is debateable also, she's shown more impressive speed feats then Captain America such as outpacing a bullet, kicking through 3 inches of quartz, moving so fast that she couldn't be caught on camera. Cap is the stronger of the two but weather he hits harder is a different story.
I'd give Cap a 2-3/10 maybe a 4 at the most.
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"Cap has never beaten a class 7 fighter before"
In the first set of scans Iron fist was exhausted from using the iron fist twice and cap did not win the second fight and wolverine was feral. You didn't upload the full fight with wolverine.
He didn't have enough chi to spam Iron Fist to stomp Cap, he wasn't exhausted. He had been preparing to fight the Wrecking Crew?
And no, actually. The Avenger's show up and stop the fight, though we can agree that under normal conditions, both of the characters mention above can win due to an X-Factor, chi and the healing factor respectively, skill-wise, Cap is on the same level.
Danny clearly states in the second scan that the strain of charging the iron fist is almost more then he could bare. Not only that but iron fist was trying to talk to him there... I don't see how iron fist preparing to fight the wrecking crew really matters. As for the wolverine fight, wolverine had cap pinned from what I have seen. Please upload the rest of the fight.
The strain of conjuring up the Iron Fist, say your magic character in Skyrim runs out of Magik, but still has stamina. He isn't tired, he just doesn't have the magic to use the IF. Even without chi, Danny has proven a capable opponent. He's still using chi based enhancements, or so I guess, but the IF takes a large amount of chi to conjure, chi that Danny didn't have. The fact that Danny thought he'd need to use the IF to defeat Cap is a feat in it's own..
I don't have the rest of the scan, but basically it goes like that, and then Iron Man (?) takes him down. However, upon further inspection, I remember the context now, this isn't feral Wolverine, but it's as close as you can get. He had his mind switched with a werewolf. XD My bad.
The strain of conjuring up the Iron Fist, say your magic character in Skyrim runs out of Magik, but still has stamina. He isn't tired, he just doesn't have the magic to use the IF. Even without chi, Danny has proven a capable opponent. He's still using chi based enhancements, or so I guess, but the IF takes a large amount of chi to conjure, chi that Danny didn't have. The fact that Danny thought he'd need to use the IF to defeat Cap is a feat in it's own..
Back before Iron fist studied the book of iron fist he use to get mentally drained when he over used the iron fist.
He had just used the iron fist twice...He was exhausted (mentally at least).
I don't have the rest of the scan, but basically it goes like that, and then Iron Man (?) takes him down. However, upon further inspection, I remember the context now, this isn't feral Wolverine, but it's as close as you can get. He had his mind switched with a werewolf. XD My bad.
You didn't upload this scan:
If this is the part where iron man came in then its not exactly a solid feat for cap....
I'd give the edge to Captain America due to physical enhancements. I think Cain has better speed and hand to hand skill. Whilst Captain America isn't a slouch in hand to hand either, he has better strength and durability. Would be a pretty good fight to see though.
I still say cassandra. She has a better track record, comparable if not better speed feats (in combat at least), her body reading, and experience fighting similar opponents (deathstroke [who cassandra is normally unable to read unlike Steve]).
Just for the record I do think deathstroke would probably beat cass for a majority but she still has good showings against Slade.
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