Cassandra Cain VS Black Canary (Dinah Lance)?

I have been thinking about this all day and I'd love to hear some opinions on this topic. Since Black Canary and Cassie have both gone up against Lady Shiva I always put them on the same level, but I've been wondering who would win in a fight. Honestly I don't even know where my opinion is although I'm kinda leaning on the side of Team Cassandra.

I would go with Cassie because of her unique training under Cain. I would imaging she could "see" Canary's sonic scream coming and stop it.

@jsphsmth: Sorry it took so long for the response, I can only post 5 times a day haha.

I wonder if Cassie has more training then Dinah, because Dinah has been training under her uncle, Batman, Lady Shiva, and with everything she's learned about strategy from leading the JLA and Birds of Prey. I completely understand that Cassie is a god of war to put it lightly, but she only trained under Cain for 8 years, and Batman/Barbara for a few years. But I do agree that Dinah wouldn't even have the chance to use her Canary cry, she'd been too busy trying to keep up with Cassie's agility for that. I honestly just don't know, I wonder if Dinah is just underrated because I think she's a lot stronger then people give her credit for. Not to discredit Cassie, haha, like I said...god of war.

The only chance Canary would have to defeat Cass would be her Canary Cry. Cass is the superior h2h fighter.

Well if you really think BC's only chance would be with her Canary Cry then yeah I don't think Canary could win, because I think Cassie could dodge that, or stop Canary before she had the chance to use it.

@jsphsmth: I rented Birds of Prey: Sensei & Student from the library last night and just finished it an hour ago and was wondering what you thought of Lady Shiva's level as a fighter. Whenever she's brought up in comics the writer make a big deal about her being the most deadliest woman on Earth, but is that really true anymore? With upcommers such as Cassie and Black Canary who've both taken down Shiva on multiple occasions is she really as deadly as she's made to believe? Maybe her time has come and gone and now she's just an amazing assassin like Deathstroke, but not unbeatable.

cass definitely. she's defeated shiva, and according to tim drake, she's the only one who's ever reely hurt batman. that's good enough for me.

@BOPFAN#3: Shiva is one of the most skilled fighters in the DCU. The way she has been written has definitely changed over the years. Now she simply seems to be someone that heroes get to beat to show that they too are great fighters. Not sure how I feel about it, it seems like a waste of a valuable character.

@jsphsmth said:

@BOPFAN#3: Shiva is one of the most skilled fighters in the DCU. The way she has been written has definitely changed over the years. Now she simply seems to be someone that heroes get to beat to show that they too are great fighters. Not sure how I feel about it, it seems like a waste of a valuable character.

Agreed. Writers have been too inconsistent with Shiva and it is beginning to take its toll on her reputation. She's supposed to be one of the greatest martial artists in DC universe

@jsphsmth: I totally agree, I really wish they would bring Shiva back as a real threat. I feel like anyone could just go take a few martial arts courses and suddenly they're better then her. Honestly I'd love to see her kill a major character to at least show she's still dangerous, not just a tool to show how powerful other characters are. Shiva should be so amazing that even the thought of someone beating her makes you laugh because you know it's nearly impossible. You shouldn't be able to count the number of people who've beaten her with more then one hand. I mean hell didn't Tim Drake even beat her by poisoning her or something?

@BOPFAN#3: Tim did drug Shiva via some chocolates. This was one of the few times that I didn't have an issue with her beign beaten. Tim has always been a smart Robin. He knew he couldn't beat her physically, so he used his brains. I thought that it was very in character for him.

@soccersss: Hopefully this is something that will be corrected when Shiva makes her appearance in the DCnU.

@jsphsmth: Oh right it was chocolates wasn't it. Damn...freaking chocolates. Ok I agree Tim is very smart, he's one of my favorite members of the Batman Family, but would Shiva really fall for that? I would find it believable that Tim would do that, but I don't buy that Shiva, the most deadly woman on Earth, would just eat a box of chocolates and not fear being poisoned. I mean Shiva and Cheshire have never gotten along and I wouldn't put it past Cheshire to try and kill her that way. Where'd she get the box of chocolates? Like did it just show up at her doorstep or was Tim able to switch it with a box she'd bought herself? I guess it depends on the story, do you know which comic this took place in? I'd love to read it.

@BOPFAN#3: The comic with Shiva was towards at the end of the Robin ongoing series. It was collected in Robin Search for a Hero.

The Superboy/Cassie relationship that I mentioned earlier was more of a comedic event than a serious relationship. It only lasted a few issues, 39-41 of her ongoing series. I don't think that these were ever collected in a trade.

@jsphsmth: Thanks for the info, I'll see if I can get a hold of those comics. And yeah it annoys me that not all of the Cassie ongoing is collected! I wonder what Shiva is going to be like in the New 52, have you read any of the Deathstroke comic? Is he a really dangerous assassin or is he just kinda average like he was before DC switched to the new 52?

@BOPFAN#3: I have not been enjoying the Deathstroke ongoing. I was ready to drop it until I read that Liefeld is taking over in May. Kyle Higgins was writing Slade as a man who is trying to regain his status as the most dangerous mercenary in the world. The last few issues have improved somewhat.

@jsphsmth: Wow he's seriously trying to "regain his status as the most dangerous mercenary in the world"? Maybe someone at DC was thinking the same thing we are, the assassins of the DCU kinda suck at their job. I'm really excited to see the League of Assassins in the New 52, I'm hoping Shiva has closer ties to the League then she did in the old DCU. I wonder when they'll bring the League of Assassins back.

@BOPFAN#3:

One of the best parts of the reboot is that DC can fix characters that have have been poorly written. Hopefully this means returning Shiva to her iconic role as the best martial artist in the DCnU.

I am hoping for Shiva to appear in a Question ongoing series. She was very involved in the Question ongoing featuring Vic Sage back in the 80s and 90s.

I would prefer Renee Montoya in the role of the Question, if the series is ever developed again.

I would expect the League to show up at some point in the Batman comics, but not for a while. The larger threats for 2012 seem to be Leviathan and The Court of Owls.

@jsphsmth: I wanna know what they're going to do with Cassie in the New 52. What if they had her as a teenaged member of the League? What if David Cain's plan to turn her into the worlds greatest assassin actually worked and she didn't run away when she was 8? She could be the next in line for the throne of the League of Assassins.

@sputnik said:

she's the only one who's ever reely hurt batman. that's good enough for me.

That's the most absurd thing I've ever heard.

Cass wins, unless she manages to get the canary cry in.

@BOPFAN#3: Only two human level combatants have ever beaten Shiva in h2h without strange circumstances. Cassandra Cain and Richard Dragon.

Cassandra will make it to Canary's throat before she can scream. Dinah has no chance against Cassandra in a h2h fight.

Cassandra wins this.

@BOPFAN#3 said:

I wonder if Cassie has more training then Dinah, because Dinah has been training under her uncle, Batman, Lady Shiva, and with everything she's learned about strategy from leading the JLA and Birds of Prey. I completely understand that Cassie is a god of war to put it lightly, but she only trained under Cain for 8 years, and Batman/Barbara for a few years. But I do agree that Dinah wouldn't even have the chance to use her Canary cry, she'd been too busy trying to keep up with Cassie's agility for that. I honestly just don't know, I wonder if Dinah is just underrated because I think she's a lot stronger then people give her credit for. Not to discredit Cassie, haha, like I said...god of war.

It's the way they were both trained that I think makes the difference. Canary started with lessons from Wildcat and was just a natural and furthered her training. Cass was never taught to speak but instead read people. Body language became her first language. Plus training with other fighters helped widen her skill set. She wins her no doubt unless the Canary Cry isn't restricted here.

With upcommers such as Cassie and Black Canary who've both taken down Shiva on multiple occasions

Also when has Canary ever beaten Shiva?

@Pokeysteve: In one of the earlier Birds of Prey comics Black Canary, Huntress, and Catwoman dropped a building on Shiva, but this was before all of Canary's training.

And the Canary cry isn't restricted, although I think Cass is too fast for Canary to use it. And Dinah's had a lot of training to, she's trained with Shiva, Batman, Babs, Wildcat, Wonder Woman, and even a few of Shiva's masters. But because I feel like Cassie's speed mixed with her fighting level I think she would win in a fight against Black Canary.

And do you guys feel like DC has been giving assassins like Lady Shiva, David Cain, Deathstroke, etc. a bad name? Because it seems like every hero in the DCU can beat them.

@BOPFAN#3 said:

And do you guys feel like DC has been giving assassins like Lady Shiva, David Cain, Deathstroke, etc. a bad name? Because it seems like every hero in the DCU can beat them.

The thing is, they're bad guys - at the end of most stories, they are going to lose... Otherwise DC will run out of superheroes. Also Deathstroke has had at least one semi-recent excellent showing I can recall, almost beating the JLA singlehandedly (though that caused a bit of a negative reaction in the other direction.)

Also, Cassandra should win this after a decent fight. Yes, Canary can win via Canary Cry, but she almost never uses it when she's engaged in H2H combat.

@Cochise: Deathstroke VS the JLA? Sounds amazing! What comic was it? And yeah if I were reading a comic book and my superheroes lost every time I'd be pretty upset. But I don't think the "World's Most Dangerous Assassins" should just require a few years of training in martial arts to beat. Like if Lady Shiva is fighting her daughter and loses that's one thing, but if Lady Shiva is fighting Tim Drake, Tim should be dead. Not that I support the death of Tim Drake, but assassins shouldn't fall for poisoned chocolates.

The more I talk about Cassandra Cain the more I miss her :(

@BOPFAN#3 said:

@Cochise: Deathstroke VS the JLA? Sounds amazing! What comic was it? And yeah if I were reading a comic book and my superheroes lost every time I'd be pretty upset. But I don't think the "World's Most Dangerous Assassins" should just require a few years of training in martial arts to beat. Like if Lady Shiva is fighting her daughter and loses that's one thing, but if Lady Shiva is fighting Tim Drake, Tim should be dead. Not that I support the death of Tim Drake, but assassins shouldn't fall for poisoned chocolates.

The more I talk about Cassandra Cain the more I miss her :(

Identity Crisis - he's defending Doctor Light from Green Arrow, Black Canary, Green Lantern (Kyle), Flash (Wally), Zatanna, and Atom (may have been someone else there, can't remember.)

I get what you are saying though. I don't mind two top-tier fighters - say, Batman and Shiva - trading wins and loses in a H2H fight. It doesn't diminish either of them to lose to the other, they are both phenomenal fighters. And I think someone can lose to a fighter who is one tier below them, but it should take a really heroic effort on the lower tiered fighter to do so, and is certainly not a common thing. For me, comics are all about people overcoming impossible odds and their own limitations once in a while. More than one tier difference (yeah, this is subjective) and the higher ranked fighter really shouldn't be losing - say, Shiva losing to Stephanie Brown in a straight-up fight, without Steph using trickery or tech or something like that (though as a Steph fan I'd still buy the issue, heh.)

@BOPFAN#3: Cassie and Stephanie are showing up eventually. That has been confirmed a few times now. Unfortunately it is a waiting game at this point. April solicits are out and still no mention of them.

Cassie would win.

@jsphsmth said:

@BOPFAN#3: Cassie and Stephanie are showing up eventually. That has been confirmed a few times now. Unfortunately it is a waiting game at this point. April solicits are out and still no mention of them.

If Stephanie shows up, she would probably go back to being Spoiler and have ties with Tim Drake but what about Cassie. It would be interesting to see what DC have planned for her

@soccersss: Dan Didio pretty much confirmed that Steph would be back as Spoiler at one of the bigger conventions last Fall. I don't know if she will show up in the Teen Ttians. With the exception of Tim Drake, the series is focusing on metas because of the NOWHERE storyline.

Bryan Q Miller keeps dropping hints about a secret project that he is working on at DC. Since he wrote Steph so well before, I hope that it involves her as Spoiler. Or better yet, maybe he will revive the Steph/Cassie partnership.

From the interview that Scott Snyder gave a few weeks ago, it sounds like they won't necessarily show up where we expect them too.

@jsphsmth:

Yeah if Steph does returns she would have to be featured in one of the Batfamily books, because I don't think is Barbara is ready to give up the mantle of Batgirl anytime soon and Steph as Spoiler is not enough to hold her own book. You are most likely right in the sense that they won't show up where we expect them to.

I just realize that I haven't answered the topic of this thread. Cassie should win but Dinah is no walkover. It'd be good fight but Cassie is more skilled and more durable, Dinah would need a miracle to pull of an upset

@BOPFAN#3 said:

@Pokeysteve: In one of the earlier Birds of Prey comics Black Canary, Huntress, and Catwoman dropped a building on Shiva, but this was before all of Canary's training.

And the Canary cry isn't restricted, although I think Cass is too fast for Canary to use it. And Dinah's had a lot of training to, she's trained with Shiva, Batman, Babs, Wildcat, Wonder Woman, and even a few of Shiva's masters. But because I feel like Cassie's speed mixed with her fighting level I think she would win in a fight against Black Canary.

And do you guys feel like DC has been giving assassins like Lady Shiva, David Cain, Deathstroke, etc. a bad name? Because it seems like every hero in the DCU can beat them.

Dropping a building on someone doesn't really count as a H2H victory haha. Canary definitely has had more training but Cass' was superior I believe. She's knows what you're going to do before you do. I do wonder if that applies to someone of Canary's caliber though. Dinah wins with the Canary cry depending on how far apart they start.

@BOPFAN#3 said:

I have been thinking about this all day and I'd love to hear some opinions on this topic. Since Black Canary and Cassie have both gone up against Lady Shiva I always put them on the same level, but I've been wondering who would win in a fight. Honestly I don't even know where my opinion is although I'm kinda leaning on the side of Team Cassandra.

Canary has never gone up against Shiva one on one.@sputnik said:

cass definitely. she's defeated shiva, and according to tim drake, she's the only one who's ever reely hurt batman. that's good enough for me.

Dumbest thing I've ever heard.@jsphsmth said:

@BOPFAN#3: Shiva is one of the most skilled fighters in the DCU. The way she has been written has definitely changed over the years. Now she simply seems to be someone that heroes get to beat to show that they too are great fighters. Not sure how I feel about it, it seems like a waste of a valuable character.

WOW I actually agree with you for once.

@BOPFAN#3 said:

@jsphsmth: Sorry it took so long for the response, I can only post 5 times a day haha.

I wonder if Cassie has more training then Dinah, because Dinah has been training under her uncle, Batman, Lady Shiva, and with everything she's learned about strategy from leading the JLA and Birds of Prey. I completely understand that Cassie is a god of war to put it lightly, but she only trained under Cain for 8 years, and Batman/Barbara for a few years. But I do agree that Dinah wouldn't even have the chance to use her Canary cry, she'd been too busy trying to keep up with Cassie's agility for that. I honestly just don't know, I wonder if Dinah is just underrated because I think she's a lot stronger then people give her credit for. Not to discredit Cassie, haha, like I said...god of war.

Cassie has also trained with Bronze Tiger,Alpha,Merlyn and possibly Silver Monkey.But training means next to nothing,feats are what matter.@BOPFAN#3 said:

@jsphsmth: Thanks for the info, I'll see if I can get a hold of those comics. And yeah it annoys me that not all of the Cassie ongoing is collected! I wonder what Shiva is going to be like in the New 52, have you read any of the Deathstroke comic? Is he a really dangerous assassin or is he just kinda average like he was before DC switched to the new 52?

Deathstroke was never average,he would wipe the floor with Shiva.@BOPFAN#3 said:

@jsphsmth: I wanna know what they're going to do with Cassie in the New 52. What if they had her as a teenaged member of the League? What if David Cain's plan to turn her into the worlds greatest assassin actually worked and she didn't run away when she was 8? She could be the next in line for the throne of the League of Assassins.

Maybe in Bizarroland,both Ra's and Talia are active,I see no reason why DC would have them replaced by Cass.

@jsphsmth said:

@BOPFAN#3:

One of the best parts of the reboot is that DC can fix characters that have have been poorly written. Hopefully this means returning Shiva to her iconic role as the best martial artist in the DCnU.

I am hoping for Shiva to appear in a Question ongoing series. She was very involved in the Question ongoing featuring Vic Sage back in the 80s and 90s.

I would prefer Renee Montoya in the role of the Question, if the series is ever developed again.

I would expect the League to show up at some point in the Batman comics, but not for a while. The larger threats for 2012 seem to be Leviathan and The Court of Owls.

Leviathan=League of assassins with a different name so that their schemes would'nt be so obvious.

@jsphsmth said:

@soccersss: Dan Didio pretty much confirmed that Steph would be back as Spoiler at one of the bigger conventions last Fall. I don't know if she will show up in the Teen Ttians. With the exception of Tim Drake, the series is focusing on metas because of the NOWHERE storyline.

Bryan Q Miller keeps dropping hints about a secret project that he is working on at DC. Since he wrote Steph so well before, I hope that it involves her as Spoiler. Or better yet, maybe he will revive the Steph/Cassie partnership.

From the interview that Scott Snyder gave a few weeks ago, it sounds like they won't necessarily show up where we expect them too.

Dan Didio has been confirming Cassandra's return for years.@BOPFAN#3 said:

@Pokeysteve: In one of the earlier Birds of Prey comics Black Canary, Huntress, and Catwoman dropped a building on Shiva, but this was before all of Canary's training.

And the Canary cry isn't restricted, although I think Cass is too fast for Canary to use it. And Dinah's had a lot of training to, she's trained with Shiva, Batman, Babs, Wildcat, Wonder Woman, and even a few of Shiva's masters. But because I feel like Cassie's speed mixed with her fighting level I think she would win in a fight against Black Canary.

And do you guys feel like DC has been giving assassins like Lady Shiva, David Cain, Deathstroke, etc. a bad name? Because it seems like every hero in the DCU can beat them.

David Cain was nothing more than some plot device to built up Cassandra,he never had any other purpose.Shiva I agree with,Deathstroke...I don't know what you've been reading but the guy is unstoppable.

@Void_Paladin said:

@BOPFAN#3: Only two human level combatants have ever beaten Shiva in h2h without strange circumstances. Cassandra Cain and Richard Dragon.

Cassandra will make it to Canary's throat before she can scream. Dinah has no chance against Cassandra in a h2h fight.

Cassandra wins this.

Richard Dragon never beat her even in Dixon's mini which is non canon.Saar the Ageless one however beat the hell out of Shiva,but I guess he would'nt fall under the human category.

and Cassandra wrecks Dinah due to body reading and superior physical stats.

@entropy_aegis said:

Richard Dragon never beat her even in Dixon's mini which is non canon.

It seemed pretty obvious that he planned to die in that fight rather than kill her. He purposely missed opportunities that could have arguably ended that fight in his favor. You are right, however, he didn't actually win. I'm pretty sure it was cannon until the new 52. Since this fight is using pre 52 versions ( there is currently no existing version of Cassandra in the new 52), I figured it was legit to use.

Cassandra wrecks Dinah due to body reading and superior physical stats.

I wholeheartedly agree.

@Void_Paladin: Johns retconned it in 52.

@entropy_aegis: Ok.

Where is Saar the ageless from? I don't recognize the name.

@Void_Paladin said:

@entropy_aegis: Ok.

Where is Saar the ageless from? I don't recognize the name.

Only appeared in one issue,he was a centuries old fighter who smacked Shiva like a little girl,she even got desperate enough to use a sword which he destroyed with a casual punch.

After that he showed immense telepathic and energy absorption powers(enough to send Martian crying).

Justice League Taskforce#4.

@entropy_aegis said:

@Void_Paladin said:

@entropy_aegis: Ok.

Where is Saar the ageless from? I don't recognize the name.

Only appeared in one issue,he was a centuries old fighter who smacked Shiva like a little girl,she even got desperate enough to use a sword which he destroyed with a casual punch.

After that he showed immense telepathic and energy absorption powers(enough to send Martian crying).

Justice League Taskforce#4.

Nice. *leaves to find this issue*

Cassandra makes easy work out of her. As good as Canary is, Cass is a cut above. She's one of DC's best and when you add in her move reading and speed, she makes easy, easy work of her.

Black Canary beats her in all of about 2 seconds.

@entropy_aegis: When I said Deathstroke as average I just meant DC's been writing all of the assassins as average fighters. They're not the unstoppable killers they used to be, oh the good old days. Not that they're horrible fighters, but I don't think they're as good as they are. I love Dinah, but I don't know if she should be able to last for 2 seconds in a fight with Deathstroke, and I definitely don't think she should be able to take on Shiva. Is Deathstroke really as good as Shiva? I always considered them the top two, but I've never thought of who was better. I'm partial to Shiva just because I really like her, but I have to think about it for a bit before I can decide. Plus it'd have to be Deathstroke without guns, hand to hand fight.

@Pokeysteve: I guess dropping a house on someone doesn't count as a h2h fight, but still bonus points for being awesome, I've never been able to drop a house on someone.

black canary

Canary Cry

@ReVamp said:

@sputnik said:

she's the only one who's ever reely hurt batman. that's good enough for me.

That's the most absurd thing I've ever heard.

Cass wins, unless she manages to get the canary cry in.

@BOPFAN#3 said:

@Pokeysteve: I guess dropping a house on someone doesn't count as a h2h fight, but still bonus points for being awesome, I've never been able to drop a house on someone.

True story. You've never been able to?! Does that mean you've tried lol?

@BOPFAN#3 said:

@entropy_aegis: When I said Deathstroke as average I just meant DC's been writing all of the assassins as average fighters. They're not the unstoppable killers they used to be, oh the good old days. Not that they're horrible fighters, but I don't think they're as good as they are. I love Dinah, but I don't know if she should be able to last for 2 seconds in a fight with Deathstroke, and I definitely don't think she should be able to take on Shiva. Is Deathstroke really as good as Shiva? I always considered them the top two, but I've never thought of who was better. I'm partial to Shiva just because I really like her, but I have to think about it for a bit before I can decide. Plus it'd have to be Deathstroke without guns, hand to hand fight.

@Pokeysteve: I guess dropping a house on someone doesn't count as a h2h fight, but still bonus points for being awesome, I've never been able to drop a house on someone.

Deathstroke does not have as much pure skill as Shiva but he does have noticeably enhanced physical and mental stats to make up for that so he does not need as much skill. But in Skill no doubt Shiva is more skilled. In all honestly I would be hard pressed to rank Deathstroke as Top 20 much less Top 10 and especially not number 2.

@Pokeysteve: .......What happens in Vegas stays in Vegas?

@Skaddix: Slade might not be #2, but he's definitely Top 10 at least. I'm hard pressed to find other assassins in the DCU who could take him on. Maybe Ra's in a sword fight, but beyond that? I'm talking strictly hand to hand tho.

Slade is # 1 as far as assassins/mercs go. But being the premium assassin does not necessarily mean he is the most skilled h2h combatant there is, or even in the top 10 (even though I would probably rank him in the top 20; if not, then top 25). So you are both correct, just in different ways.

@Morpheus_ said:

Slade is # 1 as far as assassins/mercs go. But being the premium assassin does not necessarily mean he is the most skilled h2h combatant there is, or even in the top 10 (even though I would probably rank him in the top 20; if not, then top 25). So you are both correct, just in different ways.

Yup.