@bat_girl_cc: you have to take in account that probably 2 out of the 10 hes gonna throw his shield for a KO. hes thrown the thing fast enough to catch up to a rocket and hes torn through a truck
he'll steel another couple of wins by strategically using his shield to get his opponent in the place he wants them (hes good at this)
and if Cass somehow manages to catch/dodge the shield then Cap usually follows with a tackle
but hes not gonna be stupid and try and chat.
and its not like Cass majory outclasses him in speed
he can sense changes in the air pattern. and he reacted to BP charging. Both were infected by the brood so neither was 100%
given Caps superior physicals, and tactical advantage he should take a 5.5-6/10 majority over Cassandra Cain
Lots of people have also caught the shield before. Punisher blocked it, hulks caught it a few times, daredevils caught it multiple times. There are more examples if people catching the shield and considering Cass's top tier reflexes as far as peak humans go, and her body reading I don't consider it impossible she can catch the shield. He doesn't always throw it at the speed it can catch a missile at.
Are far as tackling Cassie goes I don't see that working well. Because of her body reading she's going to know he is going to tackle her and she will probably be able to avoid it to be honest.
Cass can match him with speed feats, she has her body reading and another thing I would like to add is she has experience fighting similar enemies in deathstroke. She has done pretty well against him at times and its been flat out said on panel that even deathstroke cannot beat her in hand to hand (by Slade himself and also the bat family made a comment on it). The only time Slade really beat her was in titans east where Cass was angry and off her game as a result IIRC. The closest enemy I can think of that is similar to Cass in abilities is taskmaster. And I don't believe cap has ever beaten him.
Also in regards to the black panther showing in contest of champions 2 I would like to note black panther wasn't at his best in that encounter. I know you know that but I feel it should be noted for everyone else.
@bat_girl_cc: you have to take in account that probably 2 out of the 10 hes gonna throw his shield for a KO. hes thrown the thing fast enough to catch up to a rocket and hes torn through a truck
he'll steel another couple of wins by strategically using his shield to get his opponent in the place he wants them (hes good at this)
and if Cass somehow manages to catch/dodge the shield then Cap usually follows with a tackle
but hes not gonna be stupid and try and chat.
and its not like Cass majory outclasses him in speed
he can sense changes in the air pattern. and he reacted to BP charging. Both were infected by the brood so neither was 100%
given Caps superior physicals, and tactical advantage he should take a 5.5-6/10 majority over Cassandra Cain
Lots of people have also caught the shield before. Punisher blocked it, hulks caught it a few times, daredevils caught it multiple times. There are more examples if people catching the shield and considering Cass's top tier reflexes as far as peak humans go, and her body reading I don't consider it impossible she can catch the shield. He doesn't always throw it at the speed it can catch a missile at.
Are far as tackling Cassie goes I don't see that working well. Because of her body reading she's going to know he is going to tackle her and she will probably be able to avoid it to be honest.
Cass can match him with speed feats, she has her body reading and another thing I would like to add is she has experience fighting similar enemies in deathstroke. She has done pretty well against him at times and its been flat out said on panel that even deathstroke cannot beat her in hand to hand (by Slade himself and also the bat family made a comment on it). The only time Slade really beat her was in titans east where Cass was angry and off her game as a result IIRC. The closest enemy I can think of that is similar to Cass in abilities is taskmaster. And I don't believe cap has ever beaten him.
Also in regards to the black panther showing in contest of champions 2 I would like to note black panther wasn't at his best in that encounter. I know you know that but I feel it should be noted for everyone else.
read underlined section
2. i didnt say he'd always throw it at that speed thats why i said it'd give him 1 or 2 wins
3. if shes busy with the shield i dont see why it wouldnt work when its worked on Logan and even Spider Man
4. of course she can (thats why i said the speed difference was not that high) I actually think Cass might be slightly faster than cap
@serrure: My mistake in regards to you mentioning the context of the contest of champions. I missed that and not a lot of people really note that so I guess it was force of habit.
Fair point on suckering someone in on the shield. I'm still not sure how effective this will be on Cass due to her body reading. She could also potentially use her skill to counter. All though its a good argument.
@jashro44: not many people have read that comic so totally understandable. they just see "Dude Cap stalemated Black Panther DOY!" they dont understand that because the Panther God was fighting back an argument could be made that he was worse off than Cap.
@jashro44: not many people have read that comic so totally understandable. they just see "Dude Cap stalemated Black Panther DOY!" they dont understand that because the Panther God was fighting back an argument could be made that he was worse off than Cap.
Well Steve technically won but as you said there is context.
Good points, like i said, Cass vs Cap with his shield is a close one, i still see Cass being able to take a small majority, though...a bit faster + Body Reading + pretty good durabillity as well as pain tolerance + having stricking power enough to K.O Cap, not to mention nerve-strikes and pressure points, should do it.
Good points, like i said, Cass vs Cap with his shield is a close one, i still see Cass being able to take a small majority, though...a bit faster + Body Reading + pretty good durabillity as well as pain tolerance + having stricking power enough to K.O Cap, not to mention nerve-strikes and pressure points, should do it.
??...are we talking about speed or skill here?...speed-wise, how is that even remotely as impressive, as this?:
In the scan above Cass dodges a SNIPER-BULLET which (just in case you didn't knew already) travel WAY FASTER than a regular bullet...and it's not PIS/WIS, since she does it on a basis...in the scan above, you can see she doing it, and you can also see, images of her doing it, as part of her training with her father David Cain.
Daredevil has also reacted to a sniper bullet, diving into its path from ten feet away and deflecting it with an inch wide baton, which is more impressive than simply moving your head out of the way (that is still a great feat for Cass though.
Are Deathstroke, or the Ravager, nameless fodder metahumans?...because i can post scans of thei're encaunters if you want, on which Cass has dodged most of their attacks, well, actually in her first encaunter with Deathstroke, they had a long, extended fight, on which Slade couldn't hit her once, and had to explode the building to escape!...and Cass never lost any of those encaunters...minus one, during the time when she was being drugged by Deathstroke.
No, they're not. But they are not as fast as Venom, who Daredevil danced around without getting touched, or Spider-Man, who Daredevil has also demonstrated speed to keep up with easily.
Also, i don't see why pointing out that Daredevil can react to a sniper shot, is relevant...when i've already tolded you that that's standard for Cass!...as you can see in the scan above.
It's relevant because the sniper feat I mentioned is far more impressive than hers.
Please don't tell me, that you're saying that Deathstroke isn't a TOP marksman!...because that would mean, that Slade is yet another character that you know nothing about.
I know more about Slade than you, which is why I wouldn't compare his marksmanship to Bullseye's. I would LOVE to compare feats for the two.
Wrong!...Taskmaster has his own version of the Copy Move abillity...not the Body Reading abillity!
Really?...and what are those other abillities?
You are correct in saying that Taskmaster does not have exactly the same type of body reading as Cass. But what he does have is photographic memory and the ability to predict exactly what his opponent will do before they do it. He can see them begin to do something and know what they will do. This ability was counteracted by Deadpool acting erratically without reason, similar to how Joker counteracted Cassandra Cain's body reading (which is idiotic btw, but it happened) His other abilities are those of lots of people. Bullseye's accuracy, Captain America's moves and skill with his shield, even brief bursts of superhuman attributes.
Go to youtube, and watch militar training sessions...even actors, like Jackie Chan, do stuff like that while filming movies!...and if Stephanie Brown was real, she would curb-stomp all of them together at the same time.
I'm pretty sure that is has never in history happened that someone falls 30 feet out of a helicopter onto concrete and got right up and started acrobatically moving around.
Lmao!...being tossed around, doesn't even top what a real-life militar does on a basis.
Just.....no. People in the military never get thrown 25 feet into the air into a building and get up without a scratch.
Anyway, why don't you post that feat?
Sure, here it is.
Did you read my last reply?...because i said:
" I also have a scan on which Mad Dog stabs Cass on her chest, and she still wins the fight, by K.Oing him, with one kick. "
Do you want proof? here it is:
And i also said:
" Not bad...but i have a scan on which Cass, as a 5 year old, is being shooted on her back multiple times, by her father David Cain, with Cass not even bating an eye...and in the next image, she jumps and dodges all bullets effortlessy. "
Do you want proof? here it is:
And, also this:
Cass is more durable, and she has a much greater pain tolerance, IMO.
Not gonna lowball, those are great feats. I concede pain tolerance, but not durability. I do think that she will push through Daredevil's attacks.....until she gets K.O'd that is.
1) Feats like flipping over an armored limo, proves that he's very strong, doesn't prove that he hits very hard, which is what it matters in a fight.
Fair enough.
2) I don't see, how any of that tops what i've said before...3 inches of quartz Dude, 3 inches!...and you do know that quartz is the 4th hardest natural material in the world! right?
On the vickers hardness scale quartz is around 1,200. Diamond is 10,000. Daredevil shatters Creel's arm, which is more than 6 inches around. He uses an iron wrecking ball, but the fact that he wielded such a weapon is impressive in its own right, and the ball shatters on impact, meaning he swung with enough force to shatter iron and diamond.
By the way, i'm not buying the missile proof window feat, i'm going to need a scan...if you don't mind.
The scan is coming, I'm working on getting it. Don't worry, it's on its way. In the meantime, here is a scan of him embedding his baton four or five inches into concrete with a toss.
As for the skyscraper monster feat, here it is:
The feat is very impressive, but that is not a skyscraper sized monster. I'll take one shotting Mister Hyde, a guy who has fought Thor.
..............................I thought you knew this, but since you apparently don't, i'm going to explain it to you:
Trainned yakuzas, ninjas, samurais, swat agents, special agents, etc...they are all featless fodder!...they appear in the stories with the sole purpose of making the hero look good...they never actually do anything...only when it serves the plot, they are more than moving targets...for exemple, if the plot intended, that either of those Yakuzas were actually any good, then Daredevil would had trouble taking them out 1-on-1...if the plot intended that one of the guys that Cass speed-blitzed and oneshoted in the scans that i showed you on my other reply, were actually any good, then Cass would had trouble taking them out 1-on-1...you named a fodder feat, and i gave 11 fodder feats, get it, now?
Come on. Not all fodder fights are equal. Fights against established characters are generally far more impressive, but that doesn't mean that all fodder fights are of the same level. Like defeating 100 yakuza, 50 of who took MGH(when Patriot took it bullets were bouncing of his skin) in under three minutes, is not comparable to defeating groups of mobsters and gangbangers.
Lady Shiva is much more skilled than anyone you just mentioned...also, you mention "skill" and then you name characters like (Mister Hyde, Absorbing Man, Beast, Sabertooth) lol.
Let's be real here. Who that I listed would Lady Shiva beat? I asked you to name three characters Cass has beaten that wouldn't die badly against someone on that list. Apparently you couldn't do so? Also, did you just say that Sabertooth isn't skilled? He fights like a brawler, but he is immensely skilled.
No, no-one says it, because no-one belives it, well, you apparently do...
They don't believe it because he's underrated and they don't know his feats.
Wrong, most people were agreeing with Deathstroke and Batman beating Cassandra Cain and Captain America, due to Deathstroke!...the only person's that agreed that Batman beats Cass, were you and Jmarshmallow...now, why is that? * fan-boys *
No, I posted plenty of evidence why Batman would win. I'm more than happy to do a CaV on the subject so we can see who actually makes the better argument.
Also, i only pointed that out, because in the other thread, you said that i was being a fanboy, by ignoring Batman's abillities, when actually, it was quite the oposite...just in this thread, the majority of people agrees that Cass would only stop at either Blade or at Deathstroke...which means that they think that Cass would beat Daredevil, all of the robins, Batman, Cap, etc...so it's not because Daredevil is underrated, on this site...it's because Cass has consistently performed better feats, all around...not to mention her Body-Reading.
You were ignoring Batman's abilities. I don't see how you can look at all the foes DD has bested and say Cass has all around better feats. I'd be more than willing to do a CaV with Cap as well against Cassandra Cain. And she would beat all the Robins.
Dude, it's just like i said, Cass is faster, hits harder, is more durable, and more skilled, the only aspect on which Daredevil is (may be) better than Cass, is on raw agilllity, nothing more.
I disagree and posted feats proving it is not so. But on another note, another user said this debate is very toxic, which is true, and a lot of that blame falls on me. So I'd just like to apologize and keep the discussion on the awesome and cool characters of comic books. :)
??...are we talking about speed or skill here?...speed-wise, how is that even remotely as impressive, as this?:
In the scan above Cass dodges a SNIPER-BULLET which (just in case you didn't knew already) travel WAY FASTER than a regular bullet...and it's not PIS/WIS, since she does it on a basis...in the scan above, you can see she doing it, and you can also see, images of her doing it, as part of her training with her father David Cain.
Daredevil has also reacted to a sniper bullet, diving into its path from ten feet away and deflecting it with an inch wide baton, which is more impressive than simply moving your head out of the way (that is still a great feat for Cass though.
Are Deathstroke, or the Ravager, nameless fodder metahumans?...because i can post scans of thei're encaunters if you want, on which Cass has dodged most of their attacks, well, actually in her first encaunter with Deathstroke, they had a long, extended fight, on which Slade couldn't hit her once, and had to explode the building to escape!...and Cass never lost any of those encaunters...minus one, during the time when she was being drugged by Deathstroke.
No, they're not. But they are not as fast as Venom, who Daredevil danced around without getting touched, or Spider-Man, who Daredevil has also demonstrated speed to keep up with easily.
Also, i don't see why pointing out that Daredevil can react to a sniper shot, is relevant...when i've already tolded you that that's standard for Cass!...as you can see in the scan above.
It's relevant because the sniper feat I mentioned is far more impressive than hers.
Please don't tell me, that you're saying that Deathstroke isn't a TOP marksman!...because that would mean, that Slade is yet another character that you know nothing about.
I know more about Slade than you, which is why I wouldn't compare his marksmanship to Bullseye's. I would LOVE to compare feats for the two.
Wrong!...Taskmaster has his own version of the Copy Move abillity...not the Body Reading abillity!
Really?...and what are those other abillities?
You are correct in saying that Taskmaster does not have exactly the same type of body reading as Cass. But what he does have is photographic memory and the ability to predict exactly what his opponent will do before they do it. He can see them begin to do something and know what they will do. This ability was counteracted by Deadpool acting erratically without reason, similar to how Joker counteracted Cassandra Cain's body reading (which is idiotic btw, but it happened) His other abilities are those of lots of people. Bullseye's accuracy, Captain America's moves and skill with his shield, even brief bursts of superhuman attributes.
Go to youtube, and watch militar training sessions...even actors, like Jackie Chan, do stuff like that while filming movies!...and if Stephanie Brown was real, she would curb-stomp all of them together at the same time.
I'm pretty sure that is has never in history happened that someone falls 30 feet out of a helicopter onto concrete and got right up and started acrobatically moving around.
Lmao!...being tossed around, doesn't even top what a real-life militar does on a basis.
Just.....no. People in the military never get thrown 25 feet into the air into a building and get up without a scratch.
Anyway, why don't you post that feat?
Sure, here it is.
Did you read my last reply?...because i said:
" I also have a scan on which Mad Dog stabs Cass on her chest, and she still wins the fight, by K.Oing him, with one kick. "
Do you want proof? here it is:
And i also said:
" Not bad...but i have a scan on which Cass, as a 5 year old, is being shooted on her back multiple times, by her father David Cain, with Cass not even bating an eye...and in the next image, she jumps and dodges all bullets effortlessy. "
Do you want proof? here it is:
And, also this:
Cass is more durable, and she has a much greater pain tolerance, IMO.
Not gonna lowball, those are great feats. I concede pain tolerance, but not durability. I do think that she will push through Daredevil's attacks.....until she gets K.O'd that is.
1) Feats like flipping over an armored limo, proves that he's very strong, doesn't prove that he hits very hard, which is what it matters in a fight.
Fair enough.
2) I don't see, how any of that tops what i've said before...3 inches of quartz Dude, 3 inches!...and you do know that quartz is the 4th hardest natural material in the world! right?
On the vickers hardness scale quartz is around 1,200. Diamond is 10,000. Daredevil shatters Creel's arm, which is more than 6 inches around. He uses an iron wrecking ball, but the fact that he wielded such a weapon is impressive in its own right, and the ball shatters on impact, meaning he swung with enough force to shatter iron and diamond.
By the way, i'm not buying the missile proof window feat, i'm going to need a scan...if you don't mind.
The scan is coming, I'm working on getting it. Don't worry, it's on its way. In the meantime, here is a scan of him embedding his baton four or five inches into concrete with a toss.
As for the skyscraper monster feat, here it is:
The feat is very impressive, but that is not a skyscraper sized monster. I'll take one shotting Mister Hyde, a guy who has fought Thor.
..............................I thought you knew this, but since you apparently don't, i'm going to explain it to you:
Trainned yakuzas, ninjas, samurais, swat agents, special agents, etc...they are all featless fodder!...they appear in the stories with the sole purpose of making the hero look good...they never actually do anything...only when it serves the plot, they are more than moving targets...for exemple, if the plot intended, that either of those Yakuzas were actually any good, then Daredevil would had trouble taking them out 1-on-1...if the plot intended that one of the guys that Cass speed-blitzed and oneshoted in the scans that i showed you on my other reply, were actually any good, then Cass would had trouble taking them out 1-on-1...you named a fodder feat, and i gave 11 fodder feats, get it, now?
Come on. Not all fodder fights are equal. Fights against established characters are generally far more impressive, but that doesn't mean that all fodder fights are of the same level. Like defeating 100 yakuza, 50 of who took MGH(when Patriot took it bullets were bouncing of his skin) in under three minutes, is not comparable to defeating groups of mobsters and gangbangers.
Lady Shiva is much more skilled than anyone you just mentioned...also, you mention "skill" and then you name characters like (Mister Hyde, Absorbing Man, Beast, Sabertooth) lol.
Let's be real here. Who that I listed would Lady Shiva beat? I asked you to name three characters Cass has beaten that wouldn't die badly against someone on that list. Apparently you couldn't do so? Also, did you just say that Sabertooth isn't skilled? He fights like a brawler, but he is immensely skilled.
No, no-one says it, because no-one belives it, well, you apparently do...
They don't believe it because he's underrated and they don't know his feats.
Wrong, most people were agreeing with Deathstroke and Batman beating Cassandra Cain and Captain America, due to Deathstroke!...the only person's that agreed that Batman beats Cass, were you and Jmarshmallow...now, why is that? * fan-boys *
No, I posted plenty of evidence why Batman would win. I'm more than happy to do a CaV on the subject so we can see who actually makes the better argument.
Also, i only pointed that out, because in the other thread, you said that i was being a fanboy, by ignoring Batman's abillities, when actually, it was quite the oposite...just in this thread, the majority of people agrees that Cass would only stop at either Blade or at Deathstroke...which means that they think that Cass would beat Daredevil, all of the robins, Batman, Cap, etc...so it's not because Daredevil is underrated, on this site...it's because Cass has consistently performed better feats, all around...not to mention her Body-Reading.
You were ignoring Batman's abilities. I don't see how you can look at all the foes DD has bested and say Cass has all around better feats. I'd be more than willing to do a CaV with Cap as well against Cassandra Cain. And she would beat all the Robins.
Dude, it's just like i said, Cass is faster, hits harder, is more durable, and more skilled, the only aspect on which Daredevil is (may be) better than Cass, is on raw agilllity, nothing more.
I disagree and posted feats proving it is not so. But on another note, another user said this debate is very toxic, which is true, and a lot of that blame falls on me. So I'd just like to apologize and keep the discussion on the awesome and cool characters of comic books. :)
" Daredevil has also reacted to a sniper bullet, diving into its path from ten feet away and deflecting it with an inch wide baton, which is more impressive than simply moving your head out of the way (that is still a great feat for Cass though. "
That feat is crazy impressive...but i disagree as to which one is better...saying that Cass, "simply moved her head out of the way" is too narrow...Cass moved her head out of the way, when the sniper bullet was just a few inches from her face!...how much time do you think she had? it's about speed, but it's also about reaction-time, that's crazy fast!...not to mention, that you mentioned a feat, that Dardevil has performed once...Cass performed the feat above, as batgirl, and during the time she was being trained by her father David Cain.
" No, they're not. But they are not as fast as Venom, who Daredevil danced around without getting touched, or Spider-Man, who Daredevil has also demonstrated speed to keep up with easily. "
Cass has also danced around Deathstroke, who is also a bullet-timer, and he moves as fast as he can think!...Venom, maybe faster in raw speed. but Slade is way more skilled, way smarter, and has way more experience...for exemple, dancing around Usain Bolt, is not the same thing as dancing around Bruce Lee...personally, i consider dancing around Slade better, than dancing around Venom...also, i think you should take a look at some of Deathstroke's agillity vs speed feats:
" It's relevant because the sniper feat I mentioned is far more impressive than hers. "
I don't agree, and i've already explained above why...i think you only toke into account what it toke for Daredevil to perform his feat, and you didn't noticed, what it toke, for Cass to perform her feat...she didn't doged it right away, she only started moving when the sniper-bullet was already just a few inches from her face, and she still dodged it! now, how close is that?...you have to have a crazy reaction-time, to achieve something like this, not to mention, that it's standard for Cass, while D.D only did it once, but like i said, crazy impressive for D.D nontheless.
" I know more about Slade than you, which is why I wouldn't compare his marksmanship to Bullseye's. I would LOVE to compare feats for the two. "
I doubt that, also i didn't said that Slade > Bullseye, i said that Slade is a TOP marksman, which EVERYONE knows, the way you talked about Slade's marksman skills, it seemed to me, like you were implying that he's not a TOP marksman, which he is, and actually he's consider the best assassin in the DC Universe! that alone should tell you something...that's way, i pointed out the obvious...because, in case you were implying that Slade isn't a TOP marksman, that would mean, that you know 0 about Slade.
" You are correct in saying that Taskmaster does not have exactly the same type of body reading as Cass. But what he does have is photographic memory and the ability to predict exactly what his opponent will do before they do it. He can see them begin to do something and know what they will do. This ability was counteracted by Deadpool acting erratically without reason, similar to how Joker counteracted Cassandra Cain's body reading (which is idiotic btw, but it happened) His other abilities are those of lots of people. Bullseye's accuracy, Captain America's moves and skill with his shield, even brief bursts of superhuman attributes. "
But the thing is, Cassandra's own version, of the Copy Move abillity also allows her to also add someone's technique to her arsenal, she has done it before, here's the proof:
Not to mention that her Body Reading allows her to see everything!...every muscle, every bone, every breath, everything!
Look here:
And she only needs a mere glance at her opponent(s) to Body-Read him/them:
Look here:
" I'm pretty sure that is has never in history happened that someone falls 30 feet out of a helicopter onto concrete and got right up and started acrobatically moving around.
Just.....no. People in the military never get thrown 25 feet into the air into a building and get up without a scratch. "
You only posted the scan with of that feat now, and what i said before, i was only going by the info you had provided, it's easy for you to counter it now.
" Sure, here it is. "
In the scan that you provided i only se The Hulk grabbing D.D and sending him flying against some structure, which didn't even broke...i mean, i don't want to sound like i'm lownballing it, or something like that, but...that scan shows nothing!
" Not gonna lowball, those are great feats. I concede pain tolerance, but not durability. I do think that she will push through Daredevil's attacks.....until she gets K.O'd that is. "
Cass has durabillity more than enough to tank D.D's attacks...and that's assuming that he would tagg her, before losing...you see, she's faster than him + her Body-Reading would allow her to know what move D.D would do, before he did it + she has the stricking-power to K.O him + Nerve-Strikes / Pressure Points, something that Cass has used many times in the past.
" On the vickers hardness scale quartz is around 1,200. Diamond is 10,000. Daredevil shatters Creel's arm, which is more than 6 inches around. He uses an iron wrecking ball, but the fact that he wielded such a weapon is impressive in its own right, and the ball shatters on impact, meaning he swung with enough force to shatter iron and diamond. "
What?...oh!...i was actually beliving that D.D had actually broke through Diamond!...but actually, he broke it with another object...which isn't even standard for him, and thus, doesn't matter here...you see, Cass broke through 3-inch-quartz without any gadgets, or weapons!
Look here:
" The scan is coming, I'm working on getting it. Don't worry, it's on its way. In the meantime, here is a scan of him embedding his baton four or five inches into concrete with a toss. "
Yet another feat performed thanks to the use of weapons...well, at least in that one D.D actually used his standard weapons...Anyway, do you wanna see Cass doing better than that, while only using her bare hands?
Look here:
" The feat is very impressive, but that is not a skyscraper sized monster. I'll take one shotting Mister Hyde, a guy who has fought Thor. "
Now, wait there a second...something is wrong there...because Thor is WAY above street-level...so, either D.D one shotting Mister Hyde is PIS/WIS...or Mister Hyde taking on Thor is PIS/WIS...i will let you choose which one is.
By the way, i only posted the scans of Cass oneshotting the monster, which are obviously WIS, because you asked me to...and if we are to accept everything, than Cassandra's feat > D.D's feat...i mean, that monster was smacking around a kryptonian...and a kryptonian > Thor.
" Come on. Not all fodder fights are equal. Fights against established characters are generally far more impressive, but that doesn't mean that all fodder fights are of the same level. Like defeating 100 yakuza, 50 of who took MGH(when Patriot took it bullets were bouncing of his skin) in under three minutes, is not comparable to defeating groups of mobsters and gangbangers. "
?...did you actually saw the scans that i posted in my other reply?...in some of them Cass speed-blitzed and oneshotted like 10 guys, in like 5 seconds!...how is beating 100 guys in 3 minutes more impressive?...3 minutes = 120 seconds.
And why are always using the word "Yakuza"? it doesn't make it more impressive...a fodder feat, is a fodder feat.
" Let's be real here. Who that I listed would Lady Shiva beat? I asked you to name three characters Cass has beaten that wouldn't die badly against someone on that list. Apparently you couldn't do so? Also, did you just say that Sabertooth isn't skilled? He fights like a brawler, but he is immensely skilled. "
Lady Shiva could beat, like...all of them?
Out of my mind: David Cain, Lady Shiva, Onyx Adams, Black Wind, Mad Dog, several metahumans, Supergirl (depowered yes, but that's what makes it a legit feat), etc etc.
Not to mention, that she has proved to be superior "combat-wise" to Batman, Deathstroke, Superboy, etc.
" No, I posted plenty of evidence why Batman would win. I'm more than happy to do a CaV on the subject so we can see who actually makes the better argument. "
I'll do it, whenever you want...also we've kinda of been through that before, first of all, i made it more than clear on the first page, who is superior to who...everyone was basically debating Slade vs Cass...and Batman vs Cap...and then you and jmarshmallow, who for some reason thinks that Batman can actually hold his own against Cass Hand-to-Hand...when Cass has effortlessy dodged all of his attacks with a smile on her face, more than once...well, you and him, started to bring PIS/WIS feats "to the table"...that's when the debate ended...because it was pointless to continue.
" You were ignoring Batman's abilities. I don't see how you can look at all the foes DD has bested and say Cass has all around better feats. I'd be more than willing to do a CaV with Cap as well against Cassandra Cain. And she would beat all the Robins. "
1) No, i wasn't!...you know why i wasn't?...because, oneshotting Lady Shiva, stallemating Karate Kid, moving too fast for Superman or the Flash to see, etc it's not amoung "Batman's abillities", because he can't do that!...it's called PIS/WIS...it's like me saying that Cass out-maneuvered Bizarro-Supergirl, so that's amoung Cassandra Cain's abillities...lol...that's ridiculous!...that's the problem, of acknowledging everything that happens...some of it it's legit, but some of it it's not.
2) By the way, i've got some news for you...i was a Batman fan, WAY before i ever heard of Cassandra Cain...that's the thing, i actually know what he can, and he cannot do!
3) If you're talking about D.D beating Spider-Man or something like that, than that's PIS/WIS...if you're talking about D.D tagging Spider-Man, than it seems legit, but other peak-humans like Cass, have performed similar feats.
4) Again, i'll do it whenever you want...just send me a notification, or something like that...
5) Agreed.
"I disagree and posted feats proving it is not so. But on another note, another user said this debate is very toxic, which is true, and a lot of that blame falls on me. So I'd just like to apologize and keep the discussion on the awesome and cool characters of comic books. :)"
And i just posted feats, proving my point...
I don't doubt that there's people who think that this is very very close, i just don't see D.D as being more of match to Cass than Batman was, except for the Radar-Sense, but then again, Cass has her Body-Reading.
Good points, like i said, Cass vs Cap with his shield is a close one, i still see Cass being able to take a small majority, though...a bit faster + Body Reading + pretty good durabillity as well as pain tolerance + having stricking power enough to K.O Cap, not to mention nerve-strikes and pressure points, should do it.
I'd argue that moving her head out of the way when it it that close shows she barely had time to react to it. It is more impressive from a speed standpoint, that she was still able to get out of the way in time. But Daredevil's feat is more impressive, because he moved farther to intercept the bullet and had to be more precise to deflect it.
Those aren't bad feats for Deathstroke, but I had already seen them. And I could post more impressive feats from Batman then those. Venom isn't leagues faster than DS, but he has a speed and reflex advantage, and couldn't land a hit on Daredevil. DD also has shown similar speed to keep up with Wolverine and Spider-Man.
Slade is a top marksman, for sure. But Bullseye is of another caliber.
I know all about Cain's body reading, it and her speed are what allow her to hang with such high level characters. But DD is faster, and Cain has been hit before, by Batman, by Shiva, ect. So she isn't untouchable.
Not really, it shows an angry Hulk throwing DD around 25 ft into a concrete building. Next page DD is up and fighting again. A good feat.
Just because DD used weapons doesn't mean the feat isn't impressive. He had the strength to wield an iron wrecking ball to shatter diamond, and since diamond is much harder than quartz, and DD swung hard enough to shatter diamond and iron, the feat is much more impressive. And that wall feat is very impressive. But throwing something greatly decreases its speed and force, and he still penetrated through concrete casually. So his hits are much harder than that.
Not every feat is PIS or WIS. This is a comic book, lots of things can happen. And DD k.o's Mister Hyde using pressure points not beating him down.
DD defeated 100 guys in less than three minutes...and three minutes is actually 180 seconds, but whatever. So, let's divide 180 by 100(use your calculator if you want) and we get 1.8. That means in the Cass scan she defeated one guy every two seconds, against ten people. In the Daredevil scans, he defeated someone less than every 1.8 seconds, against 50 people and 50 metahumans.
Um, no. She could maybe beat...no, she couldn't beat any of them.
Those are impressive, but David Cain couldn't beat anyone I mentioned, I don't know what "several metahumans" are, lol at Onyx who got humiliated by Red Hood, Mad Dog couldn't beat anyone on that list, Supergirl depowered it that even impressive?
Cass dodged all his attacks in a training session. I posted a combat session where she was unable to do so, and both landed hits throughout the battle.
He can't do it because you don't think he should be able too? Batman can one shot Shiva. He did. Since his record against her is 1-0-2 he is better. I'm sorry you don't like it. And apparently only you know Batman's capabilities, not the writers.
Batman isn't faster than Flash, obviously. But saying that Batman one shotting Shiva and Batgirl dodging Bizarro are both PIS is insane when one is not, and one is.
Anyways, I'll conclude the debate here. I'll start PM'ing you asking about details of setting up the Cav.
I'd argue that moving her head out of the way when it it that close shows she barely had time to react to it. It is more impressive from a speed standpoint, that she was still able to get out of the way in time. But Daredevil's feat is more impressive, because he moved farther to intercept the bullet and had to be more precise to deflect it.
Those aren't bad feats for Deathstroke, but I had already seen them. And I could post more impressive feats from Batman then those. Venom isn't leagues faster than DS, but he has a speed and reflex advantage, and couldn't land a hit on Daredevil. DD also has shown similar speed to keep up with Wolverine and Spider-Man.
Slade is a top marksman, for sure. But Bullseye is of another caliber.
I know all about Cain's body reading, it and her speed are what allow her to hang with such high level characters. But DD is faster, and Cain has been hit before, by Batman, by Shiva, ect. So she isn't untouchable.
Not really, it shows an angry Hulk throwing DD around 25 ft into a concrete building. Next page DD is up and fighting again. A good feat.
Just because DD used weapons doesn't mean the feat isn't impressive. He had the strength to wield an iron wrecking ball to shatter diamond, and since diamond is much harder than quartz, and DD swung hard enough to shatter diamond and iron, the feat is much more impressive. And that wall feat is very impressive. But throwing something greatly decreases its speed and force, and he still penetrated through concrete casually. So his hits are much harder than that.
Not every feat is PIS or WIS. This is a comic book, lots of things can happen. And DD k.o's Mister Hyde using pressure points not beating him down.
DD defeated 100 guys in less than three minutes...and three minutes is actually 180 seconds, but whatever. So, let's divide 180 by 100(use your calculator if you want) and we get 1.8. That means in the Cass scan she defeated one guy every two seconds, against ten people. In the Daredevil scans, he defeated someone less than every 1.8 seconds, against 50 people and 50 metahumans.
Um, no. She could maybe beat...no, she couldn't beat any of them.
Those are impressive, but David Cain couldn't beat anyone I mentioned, I don't know what "several metahumans" are, lol at Onyx who got humiliated by Red Hood, Mad Dog couldn't beat anyone on that list, Supergirl depowered it that even impressive?
Cass dodged all his attacks in a training session. I posted a combat session where she was unable to do so, and both landed hits throughout the battle.
He can't do it because you don't think he should be able too? Batman can one shot Shiva. He did. Since his record against her is 1-0-2 he is better. I'm sorry you don't like it. And apparently only you know Batman's capabilities, not the writers.
Batman isn't faster than Flash, obviously. But saying that Batman one shotting Shiva and Batgirl dodging Bizarro are both PIS is insane when one is not, and one is.
Anyways, I'll conclude the debate here. I'll start PM'ing you asking about details of setting up the Cav.
" I'd argue that moving her head out of the way when it it that close shows she barely had time to react to it. It is more impressive from a speed standpoint, that she was still able to get out of the way in time. But Daredevil's feat is more impressive, because he moved farther to intercept the bullet and had to be more precise to deflect it. "
Fair enough, my point still stands, though.
" Those aren't bad feats for Deathstroke, but I had already seen them. And I could post more impressive feats from Batman then those. Venom isn't leagues faster than DS, but he has a speed and reflex advantage, and couldn't land a hit on Daredevil. DD also has shown similar speed to keep up with Wolverine and Spider-Man. "
D.S is a bullet timer, whith speed and reflexes above peak-human limitations...also. i've mentioned it before, Cass has had a long and extended fight with Deathstroke, on which he didn't landed one single hit on her, he even tryed to shot her, and faillied, and he had to blow up the building to escape, it's alot of scans, and i don't have them here, but i can find them and post them, if you want.
" Slade is a top marksman, for sure. But Bullseye is of another caliber. "
Whatever, the fact is, Cass has dodged bullets dozens of times, and everytime she got hit by a bullet, there was always context behind it...it never was because a peak-cassie couldn't dodge it.
" I know all about Cain's body reading, it and her speed are what allow her to hang with such high level characters. But DD is faster, and Cain has been hit before, by Batman, by Shiva, ect. So she isn't untouchable. "
I never said that she's untouchable, but only someone, who's either more skilled, or faster than her, should be able to do it, because there's really no other way, to counter her Body-Reading, you're either to fast for her like Cricket (a speedster that she faced on Red Robin)...or too skilled, like Lady Shiva.
D.D is neither faster than her, or more skilled.
" Not really, it shows an angry Hulk throwing DD around 25 ft into a concrete building. Next page DD is up and fighting again. A good feat. "
Right, but the problem is, in the scan that you posted, the last thing that can be seen, is D.D hitting the concrete, which didn't even broke.
" Just because DD used weapons doesn't mean the feat isn't impressive. He had the strength to wield an iron wrecking ball to shatter diamond, and since diamond is much harder than quartz, and DD swung hard enough to shatter diamond and iron, the feat is much more impressive. And that wall feat is very impressive. But throwing something greatly decreases its speed and force, and he still penetrated through concrete casually. So his hits are much harder than that. "
I didn't said that it wasn't impressive...it was very impressive, but Cassandra's was more impressive IMO, since he did it without any gadgets/weapons...plus the Diamond one doesn't even apply to this scenario, since D.D can only use his standard gear here...and as for the other feat, i already posted a scan on which Cass did better than what D.D did, and with her bare hands.
" Not every feat is PIS or WIS. This is a comic book, lots of things can happen. And DD k.o's Mister Hyde using pressure points not beating him down. "
Sure, but we can't just use that logic, everytime a character does things that he really shouldn't be able to do, specially when it's either way too much, or not consistent.
?...we were comparing stricking-power feats in that part of the post...so, why did you named a feat on which D.D used skill?...anyway, since you stricking-power counter, was actually a skill counter, my point still stands.
" DD defeated 100 guys in less than three minutes...and three minutes is actually 180 seconds, but whatever. So, let's divide 180 by 100(use your calculator if you want) and we get 1.8. That means in the Cass scan she defeated one guy every two seconds, against ten people. In the Daredevil scans, he defeated someone less than every 1.8 seconds, against 50 people and 50 metahumans. "
Lmao, i writte too fast, and mistakes like that happen to me sometimes...sorry about that.
Remember those 11 scans from Cass, that i provided to you, in a row?...go check them again, because in one of them Cass performs like 6 moves, before a glass botle could reach the ground...i'm not sure if that's even 2 seconds, i think it's less than that...anyway, we are here arguing fodder feats, that don't even desserve this much attention.
" Um, no. She could maybe beat...no, she couldn't beat any of them. "
Lmao, your knowledge on Lady Shiva is very very limited...she's way more skilled than you think, that's for sure...Oh!...and she's also considered by the large majority of the writters as the best fighter in the DC Universe!...Batman himself, has stated this many times, he has stated that Lady Shiva is the best fighter in the world, and that he has never defeated her, and i've got the scans of him saying so, which i can post if you want to see them.
Take a look at some of her feats:
Let's start by her Pre-New-52 back story:
As you saw in the scans above, she toke on the entire League of Assassins, alone, and she amost won!...she even oneshotted Bronze Tiger, and she only lost due to David Cain sucker punching her...shortly after that, she stomped David Cain, while being pregnant!...all of that, before she was even Lady Shiva!...before she started travelling the world, searching for the best fighters, and grand masters...at the time she fought the League of Assassins, she wasn't even 1/10 of the fighter, that she later became.
it's also worth to mention, that David Cain was one of Batman's trainner's.
Bronze Tiger himself admitted to Cass, that only the entire League of Assassins, could've taken down Shiva.
Also notice what he says next: "You gotta understand, this was a long time ago. She wasn't much older than you are now. She wasn't UNBEATABLE yet."...meaning that she is now...
it's also worth to mention, that Bronze Tiger has one win, and one stallemate against Batman...and yet, he got oneshotted by Lady Shiva, who wasn't even Shiva, yet.
Bronze Tiger vs Richard Dragon:
Now, Lady Shiva vs Richard Dragon:
Lady Shiva vs Connor Hawke:
Connor Hawke vs Richard Dragon:
Lady Shiva vs Batman (Batman need the help of Robin (Jason Todd to win):
Now, as for technical skill showings:
Killing her daughter Cassandra Cain with one punch, and reviving her with another punch:
Killing her with one punch:
Now, reviving her with another punch:
Dodging bullets:
And those, are just the scans that i've got here.
Now, what do you think of Lady Shiva, now?
" Those are impressive, but David Cain couldn't beat anyone I mentioned, I don't know what "several metahumans" are, lol at Onyx who got humiliated by Red Hood, Mad Dog couldn't beat anyone on that list, Supergirl depowered it that even impressive? "
David Cain who trained both Batman and Cass (even tho, on different times, and with different forms of training) and who is as good, or maybe evn better than Batman, can't beat anyone of them?...Onyx got humilliated by Red Hood? when?...i'm talking about Pre-New-52 Onyx, here...the one who once beat both Batman and Cass together at the same time...do you even know who Mad Dog is?...for instances, Cass dodged her eye beams, at close range!
" Cass dodged all his attacks in a training session. I posted a combat session where she was unable to do so, and both landed hits throughout the battle. "
You didn't posted anything, i posted all of their fights, and in the fight that you're talking about they were both drugged, Batman used tons of gadgets, like bat-a-rangs, flashbangs, a chain, etc, as well as dirty tactics...and in the end, they stallemated!...Batman has never beaten Cass on her prime, the best he did was stallemating her, and to do so, he needed gear + gadgets.
" He can't do it because you don't think he should be able too? Batman can one shot Shiva. He did. Since his record against her is 1-0-2 he is better. I'm sorry you don't like it. And apparently only you know Batman's capabilities, not the writers. "
No, not only Batman CAN'T oneshot Shiva, he also can't stomp most of the characters that he stomped in that arc...and the same goes for Superman, who made short work, out of several characters that normally give him a good run for his money...no-one takes that arc seriously, for a reason...it was a total wankfest!...also, Jeph Loeb is famous for his fan-service...i belive there's even an article here on the Vine, about that.
Also, i've got scans of New 52 Batgirl (Barbara Gordon) holding her own against a mind-controlled Bruce Wayne...so, i guess that's not PIS/WIS right?...since it has happened on panel, and the writters never got it wrong, it should be taken into account, right?...it's totally legit? right?
" Batman isn't faster than Flash, obviously. But saying that Batman one shotting Shiva and Batgirl dodging Bizarro are both PIS is insane when one is not, and one is. "
Batman has ALWAYS stallemated Lady Shiva...how/why can he sudently oneshot her?...not to mention that she was being mind-controlled, but that's not even the point...just the thought of Batman oneshotting Lady Shiva is laughable.
" Anyways, I'll conclude the debate here. "
It was already done anyway, unless you wanna try to counter the points i made...which you haven't successfully done, yet...so far, i've pointed out that (feat-wise) Cass is faster, hits harder, is more skilled, more durable, and has a much greater pain tolerance...all of my points, still stand.
At best, i think it could be said, that you managed to prove, that a Cass vs D.D fight wouldn't be a stomp, but that, we all already knew.
" I'll start PM'ing you asking about details of setting up the Cav. "
Ok, to me, Sunday would be the best day to start, because tomorrow i will be very busy.
Stops at the Wayne kids (Nightwing, Red Hood, Red Robin and Damian are too much for Cass with her morals on).
Stops at Batman, she's got body reading and speed on him as well as nearly matching him in many physical attributes and skill. However, Bruce is not so far away in speed that he will be unable to defend himself and his use of gadgets puts him above Cass since she will not be able to KO him before he uses an effective one. All it takes is one good gadget, not to mention his gauntlet tasers.
Stops at Captain America, Cass has similar advantages over Steve as she does Batman with the exception of any physical advantage. Steve isn't far behind in skill or speed much like Batman and he is definitely stronger and more durable along with the advantage of an all range weapon, body reading will definitely be an issue but he can figure it out and land a good shield bash ftw.
Stops at Bane, Cass has no way to put him down whatsoever. She may be strong enough to KO groggy super humans and throw around suicidal ones but Bane with New 52 venom was stomping Batman, she may be a bit faster than Bane but considering the fact that Batman is close to her speed and he was getting wrecked I doubt she'll do much better.
Stops at Black Panther, unless a katana counts as standard gear for Cass ... she has no way to put him down. Cass only has body reading and a minor speed advantage on him while T'challa dominates physically and has the gear to put him way above her ranging from his vibranium suit to his anti-metal claws.
Stops at Deathstroke, Cass doesn't stop here simply because he dominates her on every physical level or because his gear puts him above her ... she stops here because she'd have trouble reading him and she herself alluded that she could not beat him. If it is New-52 Slade, she has no way to put him down due to the Nth-Metal armor.
Stops at Wolverine, Cass has almost no advantages over him and body reading might not be so effective here. She has no way to put him down at all and he has dozens of ways to kill her outright, speed wise they should be about the same, skill wise Cass holds a slight advantage due to Logan's tendency to forget he knows kung-fu, physically Logan dominates due to his adamantium skeleton allowing for much harder punches and more striking power, with his claws extended he has range on her. There is no way for her to win and I'm counting on Logan using skill considering his most recent comic.
Stops at Naruto, his clones may be fodder, he sucks compared to her skill, and his physicals aren't crazy ... but as long as he keeps spamming clones he should be fine.
Stops at Lee, he's still faster than her. Lee even with weights on was fast enough to blitz Sasuke when he had his sharingan activated.
@silent_bomber: if tombstone got taken out by dare devil twice im sure cassandra can find a weak point in kingpin
Dont be fooled by Spiderman ..he is very good at making guys who are very powerful with low IQs look bad and guys with who our street levelers he makes them look good
But i agree kingpin in round one is not cool he should be in the last round
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