Cassandra Cain/Lady Shiva Vs Taskmaster/Snake Eyes

@wolverine08: Huh... Ok.

That's correct and incorrect. Her speed isn't outright metahuman.

"@monsterstomp: What do you mean? He has the abilities of all the people i listed above plus his own anticipation... You said "It'd be like Cassie (with body reading) vs Cassie (without body reading)." So i made it into Cassie vs. Cassie with what i said. What doesn't make sense?"

Meh I thought this kind of did come off that way.

@funsiized: Her speed ranked meta-human on the footage, anything else is them trying to figure out the specifics.

@monsterstomp: Which is why i said you were correct, whilst also incorrect. as the specifics were that her individual movements are NOT meta human. The fact that she can do all of them in such a quick succession and at the same time, is what is Metahuman. You made is sound like she had Flat out superspeed.

@funsiized: Depends on what the common consensus of "super speed" is on the Vine. Super speed to me, is moving inhumanely fast. Cassandra has amazing speed.

@monsterstomp: Fair enough.

Team 2. Ninja types with grenades and Uzi's shouldn't be underestimated.

They should be when Team 1 literally WEAVES around bullets.

@funsiized: Did I mention they are ninja on top?

Truthfully I think all the combatants to be on par, so it comes down to equipment in this fight. And an Uzi in the hands of somebody who isn't a jobber is dangerous.

@risingbean:

Did I mention they are ninja on top?

Beings ninjas has nothing to do with it. Considering all characters here are Expert stealth users and considered "ninjas"

Truthfully I think all the combatants to be on par

SE is nowhere near anyone here. Everyone else has Body Reading. He does not.

Uzi in the hands of somebody who isn't a jobber is dangerous

Uzis are dangerous....to your average street leveler....i repeat,

WEAVES

WEAVES

Gallery

I think you get my point?

Task master is the only hope team 2 has. and it's VERY slim.

The anticipation is based on overall style from everything I have read on the subject. He learns their style, and he can anticipate the opponents moves. As for Cassie, the body reading is a trained skill, and part of her style. He may not learn it per se, but it is fully a part of how she fights, her modus operandi, and how she utilizes her moves. It can be "seen" effectively in how she fights. Learning her style, it would be factored in with his ability to anticipate. The longer the fight goes, the better his chances, and from what I have seen, the UDON stuff might give him that chance. Regardless, he won't need to copy her body reading ability, as he already does something akin to it. The anticipation bit is a similar skill to Cassandra's, hence jashro44 even bringing it up.

Without UDON, Cassandra would probably beat Tasky for a good majority. With UDON (speed enhancements and the various weapons he can replicate) and the multitude of styles he already has, he has a pretty good shot in this fight.

@wyldsong: Cassandra doesn't incorporate body reading in her style, its more of the defensive. Its a personal trait. Cassandra will dodge a punch, that's all Taskmaster will see. What he doesn't see, is what she does see, the breathing, the tightening of the muscles, every bone, every detail before the opponent makes their move. I have yet to see actual proof that Taskmaster can copy something this complex. It's not like Taskmaster is delving into her eyes, in which case he probably could copy her body reading ability.

Your thinking of there second fight. The fight I uploaded was there first meeting.

@ghostravage said:

UDON Tasky has Super Speed... I think that should give Team 2 an edge...

Gallery

I think this showing is WIS....It contradicts how taskmasters abilities work that by watching some of his fights in "double speed" he can move in double speed. He can't copy powers as we all know, for example when he copies spider-mans or captain americas moves the speed doesn't come with it... He is limited to his own speed (Which is impressive in his own right).

I know the OP says this is UDON taskmaster but UDON is canon to the 616 universe...

Ah my bad. Which issue was this? I'd rather get some first hand context myself.

@monsterstomp: Nightwing #81 - Venn Diagram, Part 2: Friends Under Fire

If it's in the defensive, and she uses it in combat, then she uses it in her style. There is no way around that. If she sucks without it, and becomes super awesome with it, then it shows in how she fights and it affects what she does, and is in fact, part of her style.

It's something she had to learn from everything I have ever read or heard on her (and she even had to relearn it). If it shows in how she fights, and it affects how she fights (which how could it not if it works as advertised), then it is a part of her style. To my knowledge, Tasky has beat Spider-Man before by knowing his style and anticipating his moves (albeit an older showing and against a more inexperienced version of Spidey -- the more experienced Spidey he generally retreats from). What affects Spidey's style? His spider-sense. Tasky couldn't learn that ability (it's a power), but it most definitely plays into Spider-Man's style and how he fights, and Tasky was able to compensate for it with his own ability at the time. That Tasky didn't have UDON gear to boot.

I just want to say that the scan with hawkeye isn't the only time taskmasters move reading has been brought up. His first fight to deadpool brought up how deadpool was unreadable (hence why deadpool is taskmasters kryptonite), and also there is a showing with spider-man where he states he can second guess all of spider-mans moves because he has studied them.

@wyldsong: You're right, but you're also wrong and I feel like we're going to keep going in circles until one of us gives up, then several months later pick it back up run around in circles and disappear over and over again. So I'll ask a simple question: How does Taskmaster copy something he can't see? The body reading on its own. How does Taskmaster copy it? I should have worded it a bit better. Cassie uses her body reading while fighting, but it isn't visual. Cassandra could be just as unpredictable as Deadpool.

@jashro44 I think I understand. Taskmaster can predict due to the styles he has copied. Wyldsong and I are trying to argue whether or not Taskmaster could copy Cassandra's body reading ability.

@monsterstomp: My mistake, I mostly just skimmed the thread. I don't think he can copy her body reading but I don't think he needs to. I do disagree cass will be as unpredictable as deadpool. She her self has had the same problem taskmaster had except instead of with deadpool it was with joker.

I should probably note I still haven't read through the entire thread (I'm a bit busy right now) so I haven't read the arguments on both sides.

Taskmaster look tight..Where does he rank on Marvel top 10 list in martial arts and h2h!??

Taskmaster is indeed an extremely skilled combatant. I'd say that if he isn't jobbing, he would fall just out of the top five among Marvel's best fighters. Not a man to be taken lightly in the slightest.

@wolverine08: Good looking Wolvie....Who would you have over him in pure h2h!??No equipment..

@jashro44: UDON is canon to Earth 616... And he actually copied movements in that fight, i'll post those scans later just made a quick stop here.

I know thats what I said (About UDON being canon).

I never argued he couldn't copy movements but he can't copy physicals of other people. Things like spider-mans speed are off limits, he can copy spider-mans fighting style but not his super human abilities. Thats why the double time thing doesn't really make sense.

I think you are misunderstanding what I am getting at here. I'm not actually arguing that. I already said he may not learn it directly, but it factors into how Cassie fights, and is a part of her style. Again, much like Spidey and his spider-sense being a part of his style, Taskmaster's anticipation seems to cover it:

Gallery

Here again, he talks about being able to anticipate opponents, and while Pete's spider sense was not as finely honed back then, he was still an avoidance master at the time. Yet Tasky was still able to take out someone who was faster with precognitive ability due to his anticipation bit (more modern versions of Spidey would wreck him to be honest, but he can give superhumans one heck of a fight if he isn't jobbing).

Copying her style, how she fights, he can offer a counter to her reading ability, which factors heavily into her style and how she fights. Like I said a few posts above:

"He may not learn it per se, but it is fully a part of how she fights, her modus operandi, and how she utilizes her moves. It can be "seen" effectively in how she fights."

It's going to factor into what he learns from her, but I am not arguing he will learn it directly. Just like Spidey's spider-sense would factor into what he learned about/from Spidey, he still didn't gain a precognitive ability. Learning their style and how they fight though gives him a good counter to such an ability with his own anticipation. Take away the jobber aura, and Tasky can be truly frightening.

@jashro44: Check the scans I just added, he talks more about the anticipation bit=)

@kingares109: I personally think Taskmaster is somewhere around sixth giving Captain America a run for his money in the 5th spot.

My list of Marvel's most skilled fighters looks like this:

1. Iron Fist

2. Wolverine (When he's trying to use his skill.)

3. Black Panther

4. Daredevil

5. Captain America.

Taskmaster is around 6th.

@funsiized: The point I am making is I don't see Snake Eyes just dropping for her. He's a quasi mystical martial artist who is gonna run the fight alongside the rest. I don't see him getting downed. As per her bullet timing, can you find any scans of credible shooters firing at her? Just because John Q. Thug can't do it, does not mean that a guy of SE's caliber can't I won't discount her skill to dodge these guys entirely but I don't see her rolling over them either.

I give this to team 1 with Cass (Much to my displeasure) being the MVP. Tasky is the only real threat to her and he can't beat her with her movement reading. That's basically her trump card in martial arts and I can't fathom a way that taskmaster can duplicate it ( you can't really see that happening now can you? ) I bring up taskmasters fight with mr x. He lost badly there. This may not be the clean sweep that mr x had but the outcome should be the same

@jashro44: The speed thing was because he made a research on how to do it. It's an ability that doesn't come from mutation, meta-powers or anything similar, it's an ability that relies on skill, he then mentions he's about to collapse because he's using his body too fast.

He can copy this kind of abilities like he copied the "chi" usage in this instance...

Gallery

It's fairly easy to say he's not restricted to copy movement only... He can copy abilities that rely on skill as well. This technique is used by Shang Chi as well, and he's no meta human at all.

With this said, i think Taskmaster can copy Cassie's movement reading if he makes research on it.

PS: About the UDON being canon, i thought you meant it wasn't canon and you made a typo. My mistake.

@wyldsong: Fair points, I give you that. I think it still remains unanswered. IF Taskmaster can copy Cassandra, it'd be a stalemate at most or Cassandra wins due to superior speed. Cassandra caught Shiva off guard (despite her also having the ability to read body language). Which says a lot.

I will quickly clear up something. I am using UDON Taskmaster for the gear and extra speed boost. UDON is cannon to 616 as per Agency X so all of his feats in his other suit can still be used.

Taskmaster disagrees!!!

I respectfully disagree. It was shown during that fight that Taskmaster was under duress performing that feat and that if he held it consistently he'd have shattered his bones dur to the fact he was moving at super-human speed despite the fact that he is human. For example here:

He outright states he can copy his speed. Now is Taskmaster as fast as Spider-man of course not. If he was he'd be high-tier street level. However he has consistently matched people with super-speed so while he may not be able to do it to the same level of speed as the person concerned for long periods of time or even at the same level of speed pushing his speed to superhuman levels is not an uncommon feat for him he even took Daken(granted Daken's healing was on the fritz) and Venom by surprise:

I find it very unlikely that Taskys speed isn't above peak human on a standard basis.

@strider92: Oh yeah.... I forgot about that scan...

Well then that secures my standing by my cousins original score of 6.5/10 for team 2.

Well, he can definitely copy Cassandra, and the longer the fight goes, the more it would lean in Taskmaster's favor. He does have impressive speed himself, as many of Marvel's top tiers have experienced this (and like strider92 pointed out, even Daken and Venom, and as I have shown, Spider-Man can attest to this). When he isn't jobbing and is written to his fullest, Taskmaster ranks up there with some of the best.

@strider92: I don't think I have ever seen the scan of him using all at once...I knew he could use multiple, but that is impressive. That makes me lean a little more towards Tasky and less towards Cassandra.

You put IF at #1, I guess this list will do then=)

@wyldsong: Still not convinced he could copy her body reading, she incorporates it in her style but it can't be deduced that she's reading body language. So far (I'm on issue 41 of Batgirl, so don't quote be on this) no one has deduced she has body reading abilities, everyone has found out of this ability through someone else. I don't think its something that has been noted when she fights. People have seen review tapes and never mentioned anything about her body reading.

What's the combat style?

The response..

That's... Tricky. Yosh says she's all over the place, weird combinations, no dominant school--

No reference to body reading, because they can't see it being used. Sure Taskmaster could copy her style, but I'm still not convinced he could copy her body reading ability. That's all I'm saying. You're trying to prove he probably could because its incorporated into her style, but he can't copy what he can't see and he hasn't done something alike (based on what I've seen here).

@monsterstomp: It's still seen/used in her style (like spider-sense is in Spidey's), affects her style, and can be accounted for due to that, as we have seen in the Spidey instance. He doesn't need to copy the ability, he has one of his own. All he has to do is account for it, and how it affects her style, which he most definitely will see, being that it is a part of and most definitely affects her style. Spider-sense can't be seen, but it affects how Spidey fights and his style, yet Taskmaster's abilities accounted for it, and it is not common knowledge that Spider-Man has that extra sense. Not to mention, with someone as experienced as Tasky is at anticipation, it wouldn't be all that far fetched for him to figure out someone else is doing something similar.

@wyldsong: Haha! With how much Danny's raw technical skill and training have been expounded on in this modern age with his upgrade, I had to give my boy Danny the nod.

@wyldsong: *shakes head* We're going to have to agree to disagree, man. Sorry.

@monsterstomp: I'll let it drop, but I'm sorry, if he can account for and counter an unseen precognitive ability, then I can see no valid argument for him not being able to do so for Cassandra's ability. Add in his anticipation abilities as he is learning Cassandra's fighting style, and top it off with the styles of all the heavy hitters in Marvel, with some enhanced speed of his own, UDON gear and you have a dangerous combination.

But, you don't agree, it's all good bro.

@ghostravage said:

@jashro44: The speed thing was because he made a research on how to do it. It's an ability that doesn't come from mutation, meta-powers or anything similar, it's an ability that relies on skill, he then mentions he's about to collapse because he's using his body too fast.

He can copy this kind of abilities like he copied the "chi" usage in this instance...

Gallery

It's fairly easy to say he's not restricted to copy movement only... He can copy abilities that rely on skill as well. This technique is used by Shang Chi as well, and he's no meta human at all.

With this said, i think Taskmaster can copy Cassie's movement reading if he makes research on it.

PS: About the UDON being canon, i thought you meant it wasn't canon and you made a typo. My mistake.

My major issue with the double time is how taskmaster explains he learned it. He said he learned by watching his fights at double the speed. I think he can do super human things and use chi like shang chi can I just have an issue with the double time specifically.

@strider92

As I said above my issue isn't him moving at the speeds he was moving at. Its how he explains he learns to do it.

The scan with spider-man may prove taskmaster can increase his speeds however he mentions "within limitations". I think what taskmaster means is he can replicate the way in which spider-man uses his speed and agility (it is a part of spider-mans fighting style) not that seeing spider-mans moves gives him an increase in speed. We agree he can't copy spider-mans max speed however the scans with the whole UDON double speed say he can learn to increase his speed twice as fast just because he saw a video tape of him moving twice as fast.

The venom and daken showing are impressive (All though I personally think the feat with Flash is PIS but thats a different debate for another day), but my issue isn't taskmaster being fast. Taskmasters photo graphic reflexes let him duplicate stuff but he is still limited to whatever his own stats are.

@wyldsong Nice!

@jashro44: Well, i think it plausible for Tasky to do such thing the way he learned it. It's his power after all, photographic memory, id he sees something moving at double speed, i think its possible for him to copy it if it's in the range of the humanly possible. Like he said in the scan, it's possible, but the Human Body isn't made to withstand such pressure in the muscles.

Anyway, i have no quarrels with the instance at all, but i understand your point.

@jashro44: I occasionally find a few gems here and there=)