@comicdude23: I would say she is at most = to DD in all those aspects while not on par with DD in strength. She has never shown Strength on his level. She is peak human through training similar to him but his super-senses give him balance and coordination to a superhuman degree. This would overall boost his physical attributes. Only thing she brings to the table is the ability to read movements which DD can counter with the fact that he can scan the field for her and know where she is coming from at all times.
" @comicdude23: I would say she is at most = to DD in all those aspects while not on par with DD in strength. She has never shown Strength on his level. She is peak human through training similar to him but his super-senses give him balance and coordination to a superhuman degree. This would overall boost his physical attributes. Only thing she brings to the table is the ability to read movements which DD can counter with the fact that he can scan the field for her and know where she is coming from at all times. Daredevil Wins! "
She is faster than him
Her Speed feats put her on a Super Human level, she can also use Pressure Points!
@comicdude23: So can daredevil, it has be shown many times that he can use P points. It's not an actually fact that she is faster then him, DD has faced Speedsters before and due to the advanced warning his radar sense gives him is more then able to to dodge incoming attacks. As for your comment about her being stronger then he is, I have seen no prove of this as well. I am not sure where you are getting your facts from!! Below is a scan of DD catching a card thrown by Bullseye at Elektra (who we all know to be highly trained to the point of being one of the best in Marvel) yet she does not see it coming and he catches it with ease, while talking to her. I don't see how Cass even with her speed is going to catch him fully of guard.
@comicdude23: As he will know hers as she makes them!!!
I don't know why you are focusing on the pressure points when it has been established both characters are able to use them, are you wanting to rule out pressure point usage for DD as he may not use them as much as cass has been shown to!! which I am not sure is true, I would say they have roughly the same amount of usage of P Points. As for the glass bottle here is a scan of him catching a sai thrown at him at close range again by bullseye. Beating up a couple of thugs before a bottle drops is child play for either of these characters, below that picture is a scan of him easily avoiding a strike by wolverine and in a the same motion using a single move to drop him.
@comicdude23: Well Scans Have been posted to show his speed. He is quite fast and should be able to match her in speed. DD is similarly Superhuman and has feats against fantastic fighters. He has gotten the best Cap and enhanced Human and the battle ground puts him in location that is perfect for his senses. There is no interference, no conflicting sounds, it's simply perfect for him to utilize his abilities to there maximum capacity. .
" @comicdude23: Well Scans Have been posted to show his speed. He is quite fast and should be able to match her in speed. DD is similarly Superhuman and has feats against fantastic fighters. He has gotten the best Cap and enhanced Human and the battle ground puts him in location that is perfect for his senses. There is no interference, no conflicting sounds, it's simply perfect for him to utilize his abilities to there maximum capacity. . "
I wouldn't put his Speed on par with her's....she has better Speed Feats, Cass is faster than Cap...
Cassandra has been training for most of her life, she has Speed Feats that put her on a Super Human level, she has Body Reading
Now it's all down to Body Reading vs Radar Sense
I would say Body Reading is better
Her body reading will help her, she will know all of his moves before he makes them, and since she knows that, she can use her Body Reading to figure out what he will do, and proceed to use her Speed and tag him.
@comicdude23: Whats Cass's best speed feat compared to Cap? He has run a mile in under a minute and dodges bullets and laser with ease. I know she has done similar dodging but what else has she done on that level? Her speed won't be sufficiently higher to make it a solid win. In this scenario they are on even ground. She has body language reading. She can read all his movements before he reacts. There are few distracting noises. If DD can hear a gun Cock back a few blocks away in a busy city, he can hear her shift her feet in the ground to move or her hands cut the air. Plus, I don't think she strikes faster then a bullet which Daredevil frequently deflects with his Billy Clubs.
" @comicdude23: So can daredevil, it has be shown many times that he can use P points. It's not an actually fact that she is faster then him, DD has faced Speedsters before and due to the advanced warning his radar sense gives him is more then able to to dodge incoming attacks. As for your comment about her being stronger then he is, I have seen no prove of this as well. I am not sure where you are getting your facts from!! Below is a scan of DD catching a card thrown by Bullseye at Elektra (who we all know to be highly trained to the point of being one of the best in Marvel) yet she does not see it coming and he catches it with ease, while talking to her. I don't see how Cass even with her speed is going to catch him fully of guard.
" @comicdude23: Whats Cass's best speed feat compared to Cap? He has run a mile in under a minute and dodges bullets and laser with ease. I know she has done similar dodging but what else has she done on that level? Her speed won't be sufficiently higher to make it a solid win. In this scenario they are on even ground. She has body language reading. She can read all his movements before he reacts. There are few distracting noises. If DD can hear a gun Cock back a few blocks away in a busy city, he can hear her shift her feet in the ground to move or her hands cut the air. Plus, I don't think she strikes faster then a bullet which Daredevil frequently deflects with his Billy Clubs. "
DD won't move faster than what Cassandra can see. Daredevil has been tagged by slower people than Cass. Does DD consistentley use Pressure Points? because for most of the time he sticks to Punches and Kicks, Cass may also be Stronger. DD has maxed out at 400lbs
" He didn't do much to Logan, Logan just came at him and DD dodged, it was only 1 strike he dodged... and Cassie has been training since she was 3, she's fought Lady Shiva, Batman, etc "
And thats all you took from my whole post, Logan who is a very good H2H fighter got one shotted by DD and you don't think thats good. But Cass beating down four random street thugs with ease and thats a good feat in your eyes. DD has fought Cap, Hercules, Elcketra and more. You seem to ignored several things I have posted that actually question things you have said and pick out things that strength your point without replying to the other things. It was also the fact that DD was able to use the strike that logan did and turn it into an attack. I don't really see a point debating with you as I don't see what you do as actually debating!!!
" He didn't do much to Logan, Logan just came at him and DD dodged, it was only 1 strike he dodged... and Cassie has been training since she was 3, she's fought Lady Shiva, Batman, etc "
And thats all you took from my whole post, Logan who is a very good H2H fighter got one shotted by DD and you don't think thats good. But Cass beating down four random street thugs with ease and thats a good feat in your eyes. DD has fought Cap, Hercules, Elcketra and more. You seem to ignored several things I have posted that actually question things you have said and pick out things that strength your point without replying to the other things. It was also the fact that DD was able to use the strike that logan did and turn it into an attack. I don't really see a point debating with you as I don't see what you do as actually debating!!! "
Look at the scan again. All he did was dodge one strike and strike him in the neck. Logan could kill DD if he wanted to, Cassandra has beaten Lady Shiva, Lady Shiva is considered to be DC's greatest Assassain,
" He didn't do much to Logan, Logan just came at him and DD dodged, it was only 1 strike he dodged... and Cassie has been training since she was 3, she's fought Lady Shiva, Batman, etc "
And thats all you took from my whole post, Logan who is a very good H2H fighter got one shotted by DD and you don't think thats good. But Cass beating down four random street thugs with ease and thats a good feat in your eyes. DD has fought Cap, Hercules, Elcketra and more. You seem to ignored several things I have posted that actually question things you have said and pick out things that strength your point without replying to the other things. It was also the fact that DD was able to use the strike that logan did and turn it into an attack. I don't really see a point debating with you as I don't see what you do as actually debating!!! "
Look at the scan again. All he did was dodge one strike and strike him in the neck. Logan could kill DD if he wanted to, Cassandra has beaten Lady Shiva, Lady Shiva is considered to be DC's greatest Assassain, "
I think he was talking about all the other post he made and you ignored!!! Also in that comic that one strike took Logan out of the battle. Also in the comic you are talking about Cass was killed by Mad Dog and Lady shiva brought her back so they could fight, Just sharing all the facts. Cass has been tagged by People like Nightwing, you can't just push away one feat because it goes against what you are debating. As he said you posted a scan of Cass beating four punks and want people to take that as a speed feat, I can easily name about six sub par H2H fighters that could have done the same thing. If you want to count feats you need to take other feats as well even if they go against what you are trying to point out. Thats what makes a good debater, taking facts in and debating back and forth, not ignoring things because they don't support what you are trying to argue.
" He didn't do much to Logan, Logan just came at him and DD dodged, it was only 1 strike he dodged... and Cassie has been training since she was 3, she's fought Lady Shiva, Batman, etc "
And thats all you took from my whole post, Logan who is a very good H2H fighter got one shotted by DD and you don't think thats good. But Cass beating down four random street thugs with ease and thats a good feat in your eyes. DD has fought Cap, Hercules, Elcketra and more. You seem to ignored several things I have posted that actually question things you have said and pick out things that strength your point without replying to the other things. It was also the fact that DD was able to use the strike that logan did and turn it into an attack. I don't really see a point debating with you as I don't see what you do as actually debating!!! "
Look at the scan again. All he did was dodge one strike and strike him in the neck. Logan could kill DD if he wanted to, Cassandra has beaten Lady Shiva, Lady Shiva is considered to be DC's greatest Assassain, "
I think he was talking about all the other post he made and you ignored!!! Also in that comic that one strike took Logan out of the battle. Also in the comic you are talking about Cass was killed by Mad Dog and Lady shiva brought her back so they could fight, Just sharing all the facts. Cass has been tagged by People like Nightwing, you can't just push away one feat because it goes against what you are debating. As he said you posted a scan of Cass beating four punks and want people to take that as a speed feat, I can easily name about six sub par H2H fighters that could have done the same thing. If you want to count feats you need to take other feats as well even if they go against what you are trying to point out. Thats what makes a good debater, taking facts in and debating back and forth, not ignoring things because they don't support what you are trying to argue. "
1. Yes, but all DD did was dodge his attack and strike back, and Logan was going all out on him 2. Nightwing got Casandra by surpirse. 3. How is that not a Speed Feat???? She moved faster than a Glass Bottle can drop, a bottle can drop in a few seconds
1. Thats the point DD dropped him before he even had the chance!! you keep ignoring the feat and want people to pay attention to your own 2. No nightwing did not surprise her... again you are bending facts to suit you. 3.I did not say it was not a speed feat I said it's not a good one, again I say there is a load of people who can do the same feat. If it was against the league of assassins rather then a bunch of untrained fighter it would have been impressive.
I don't know why I even try and help you become a better debater, it's just the same stuff over and over again. continue debating im done!!
" @comicdude23: 1. Thats the point DD dropped him before he even had the chance!! you keep ignoring the feat and want people to pay attention to your own2. No nightwing did not surprise her... again you are bending facts to suit you.3.I did not say it was not a speed feat I said it's not a good one, again I say there is a load of people who can do the same feat. If it was against the league of assassins rather then a bunch of untrained fighter it would have been impressive. I don't know why I even try and help you become a better debater, it's just the same stuff over and over again. continue debating im done!! "
1. Was Logan going all out on DD? was he using his full speed?
2. There has been different times where Nightwing and Cassandra have fought. In one of them Nightwing one shotted Cassie, that was the one i was talking about. And Nightwing is fast, he has moved so fast that Catwoman cannot see him.
3. Name me someone who has moved faster than a bottle can drop? someone at Cassandra's level, or lower
1. No he never got the chance to go all out, he was enraged so he was moving at a decent speed and again you missed the point.
2. Yes and you picked the one battle that helped proved your point rather then admitting the many times that Nightwing had tagged her...again ignoring facts to strengthen your point.
3. Okay, Shiva, Deathstroke, Nightwing, Tim Drake, Speedy, Green Arrow I can keep going..STREET thugs getting taken out in a few seconds is nothing, again your missing the point, the feat in itself is not a good one, find a better speed feat, there is a rather impressive one of her taking out several guards in moments and appearing in front of a target.
"Im game if your up for it, we could shake the dust off!!! "
hahaha why not.
Although Cass has some impressive speed feats I dont believe it would be a major advantage, if one at all. Green Arrow, Batman, David Cain, Nightwing, etc have all tagged her so Daredevil would be able to as well. I havent read all the posts but from what I did see no one has brought up the fact that they get their standard gear. Cass isnt known for utilizing gadgets but she does use them. In a non-canon crossover between Daredevil and Batman, Bruce was able to deduce that DD was blind by subtle indicating movements, now as I said it wasn't canon but with Cass' ability to read people's movements like a book I see no reason why she wouldn't be able to do the same only easier. Then it would become a question of whether or not she had any gadgets that would exploit this fact.
" @comicdude23: 1. No he never got the chance to go all out, he was enraged so he was moving at a decent speed and again you missed the point. 2. Yes and you picked the one battle that helped proved your point rather then admitting the many times that Nightwing had tagged her...again ignoring facts to strengthen your point. 3. Okay, Shiva, Deathstroke, Nightwing, Tim Drake, Speedy, Green Arrow I can keep going..STREET thugs getting taken out in a few seconds is nothing, again your missing the point, the feat in itself is not a good one, find a better speed feat, there is a rather impressive one of her taking out several guards in moments and appearing in front of a target. "
1.So he wasn't thinking clearly, yes he will dodge her hits, but not ALL of them
@Gambler: She can React to a high powered sniper rifle bullet. Very Impressive but that shows her reaction and evasion to a single shot. Doesn't show her striking speed being as fast a bullet. Ducking and Jabbing are 2 very different actions.
Also DD's Bullet Deflecting feats are far better. It shows him reacting and actually striking the bullet. That also counts as a combat speed feat.
" @Gambler: She can React to a high powered sniper rifle bullet. Very Impressive but that shows her reaction and evasion to a single shot. "
Which is exactly what you asked for yes? She has dozens of bullet dodging feats (single and automatic). You stated she didnt have bullet time speed and I provided you with a scan that proves otherwise.
@ThaMessenger07 said:
" Doesn't show her striking speed being as fast a bullet. "
I never made the claim that it was, or that it needed to be. Are you suggestion that she wouldn't be able to land strikes on DD? If not then this a moot point.
@ThaMessenger07 said:
" Ducking and Jabbing are 2 very different actions. "
Again I'm not sure what your point is here. Nowhere did I claim she could strike at bullet level speed. And again, she wouldn't need to.
@ThaMessenger07 said:
" Also DD's Bullet Deflecting feats are far better. It shows him reacting and actually striking the bullet. That also counts as a combat speed feat. "
I wasn't debating which was the better feat. Simply disproving your original statement. However if you read the second scan in the collection you posted you'll notice that DD is actually reacting to the sound of the hammer being cocked and even states as much. Meaning he's already started reacting to the gun shot before it was even fired. Which is an anticipation feat, not a combat speed feat. Cass' pic shows her waiting for the bullet to get within inches before moving.
" @comicdude23: His Radar sense IMO is superior to her Body Reading
DD has flipped a Limo and has spun 450 lbs like a baton and then tossed it across a room.
Once again Cass is fast but she is not faster then a bullet which DD reflects like it's nothing.
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"
DD flipping a Limo and spinning 450lbs like a baton and then tossing it across a room is quite impressive.
But Cassandra is faster than a Bullet, she has outran a Bullet.
Most Street Levelers can dodge them, but can they outrun them?
Also, i believe his Radar Sense is limited, didn't he have trouble sensing Lady Bullseye?
DD's senses are good. But Cass's are better IMO. Cass has fought and beaten Lady Shiva, Lady Shiva has Body Reading, yet Cass still won. In close combat her Speed, Fighting Skill and Durability should give her the win.
@Gambler: 1. It is not what I was looking for. Though I did not specify so it is my fault.
2. The point was to show comicdude, the individual I was debating with that she may be fast but she isn't fast to the point that DD can not react to her. He frequently dodges and deflects projectiles thrown by one of the greatest marksmen in comics and other shooters wielding guns at point close range. Unless she strikes faster then a Bullet, her speed does not mean a guaranteed victory.
3. Please Refer to #2
4. I believe the context that you put your scan in is completely wrong. At no point does it seem like she is just waiting except when showing her training. DD's senses are the reason why he reacts to the gun. That is so obvious you stating he hears the hammer seemed unnecessary. He also heard a Card slicing through the air. He can and will react similarly to her strikes and he will have the speed to deflect, counter, absorb, or dodge. He still needs speed to actually make contact with the bullet. Just cause I tell you I'm going to toss the ball to you and then toss it doesn't mean you will catch it if you don't have the right coordination and speed to react.
@comicdude23: Her outrunning a bullet is Impressive but Ive never seen her do so. Even if she can (which I doubt), DD can react to something at those speeds. His Hearing and senses make him superior to her by not needing to rely on her making a step or standing in a certain position. He can hear her heartbeat, pulse, joints, he can smell her, he feels the shift in the air or in her breath. These signs take much less then what her already fascinating ability does and IMO make him much deadlier.
DD's Radar Sense has some weaknesses that he generally overcomes. Lady Bullseye in her costume has a low pulse and little to no scent, so it was somewhat more difficult for him to track.
"Im game if your up for it, we could shake the dust off!!! "
hahaha why not. Although Cass has some impressive speed feats I dont believe it would be a major advantage, if one at all. Green Arrow, Batman, David Cain, Nightwing, etc have all tagged her so Daredevil would be able to as well. I havent read all the posts but from what I did see no one has brought up the fact that they get their standard gear. Cass isnt known for utilizing gadgets but she does use them. In a non-canon crossover between Daredevil and Batman, Bruce was able to deduce that DD was blind by subtle indicating movements, now as I said it wasn't canon but with Cass' ability to read people's movements like a book I see no reason why she wouldn't be able to do the same only easier. Then it would become a question of whether or not she had any gadgets that would exploit this fact. "
Sorry bro had to go eat :P
I agree fully that cassie's speed is not a massive factor in this battle. I don't see cass using her gear or relying on it to much. Biggest threat to DD in this battle is Cassies skill, She is almost flawless. But this is nothing new to DD, he has fought people who are much better H2H fighters then himself and came out on top, Cap is one that springs to mind and the PJ assassin Elecktra . I think it is valid to bring the crossover up as well its the only thing we have to compare DD to a member of the Bat family! But I don't think Cass will work out DD is blind as quick as Bruce did, the two had sometime with each other if I remember right before Bruce figured it out. I know cass can read movements but that is (correct me if im wrong) more focused on combat then normal movements! I think it would take her longer to connect the dots then it did for Bruce. I just think their minds are wired differently for her to connect the dots like Bruce did. For me DD radar sense gives him the edge, the reason he often gets the upper hand is because of this, as the fighters know nothing about each other, I think this gives him the edge at the start. My question is how long would he have before Cass managed to figure out that he has some type of Radar sense and use that against him!! Is it enough time for DD to pull the win?? I think it is....
" @comicdude23: Her outrunning a bullet is Impressive but Ive never seen her do so. Even if she can (which I doubt), DD can react to something at those speeds. His Hearing and senses make him superior to her by not needing to rely on her making a step or standing in a certain position. He can hear her heartbeat, pulse, joints, he can smell her, he feels the shift in the air or in her breath. These signs take much less then what her already fascinating ability does and IMO make him much deadlier. DD's Radar Sense has some weaknesses that he generally overcomes. Lady Bullseye in her costume has a low pulse and little to no scent, so it was somewhat more difficult for him to track. "
That is a good ability, but Cassandra has dealt with people who also have similar abilities. Cassandra fought Shiva, Shiva also had body reading, yet Cassandra got past it. Now DD can react to bullets, etc. But in close combat she can get him,
Now DD has some advantages, his Radar Sense (Arguably), and his Strength
Cassandra has Fighting Skill over DD, Speed and Durability.
Both characters have been tagged before, the question is, who tags who first.
" It is not what I was looking for. Though I did not specify so it is my fault. "
So then what were you looking for? Your original statement was "She's fast, but not as fast as a bullet." The scan I provided clearly shows her reacting to a bullet after its been fired. Not only that but there is a scan posted by comicdude in which she actually moves her entire body from point A to point B faster then a bullet thats already been shot. And as I pointed out up above, she has numerous bullet dodging feats *after the bullet has been fired* I'm not taking a shot at you but this is pretty common Batgirl knowledge.
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@ThaMessenger07 said:
"The point was to show comicdude, the individual I was debating with that she may be fast but she isn't fast to the point that DD can not react to her. He frequently dodges and deflects projectiles thrown by one of the greatest marksmen in comics and other shooters wielding guns at point close range. Unless she strikes faster then a Bullet, her speed does not mean a guaranteed victory. "
Which is a statement I agreed with in my second post. They both dodge bullets, strikes, and projectiles on the regular. Speed (for either character) isn't going to be the deciding factor.
@ThaMessenger07 said:
" I believe the context that you put your scan in is completely wrong. At no point does it seem like she is just waiting except when showing her training. DD's senses are the reason why he reacts to the gun. That is so obvious you stating he hears the hammer seemed unnecessary. He also heard a Card slicing through the air. He can and will react similarly to her strikes and he will have the speed to deflect, counter, absorb, or dodge. He still needs speed to actually make contact with the bullet. Just cause I tell you I'm going to toss the ball to you and then toss it doesn't mean you will catch it if you don't have the right coordination and speed to react. "
The training sequence is the entire point of the normal time bullet dodge. Even for the sake of argument, if we only count the training dodge it still clearly displays her waiting until the bullet is within inches of her head before moving, but its not really paramount to the discussion as the point was to show her ability to react/dodge bullets after they've been fired. Which she does. I think you're missing the point about my DD comment. You said it was more impressive then the scan of Cass dodging a sniper bullet. In Cass' scan it makes no such mention of her having anticipated the shot by having heard the hammer cock, meaning she's actually reacting to the bullet once its in flight. DD is clearly reacting to the shooter cocking the hammer back before the shot is ever fired(in the second scan). Which to me isn't more impressive at all. And again, I'm not now, nor did I, claim he wouldn't be fast enough to react to her strikes. As for the ball comment, it doesnt mean I'll be coordinated or fast enough to catch it but it clearly gives me a heads up and time to start making my movements before you actually toss it. Which was my point.
In my second post I made it clear that from my point of view speed wasn't going to be a factor for either character. So basically we've wasted a good hour on a subject we both agree on. Its her skill, speed, body reading ability, and almost superhuman level of isolated training from birth combined that lead me to believe she would win. She killed her first man when she was nine by mimic a throat rip her father taught her. She was groomed to become the perfect weapon (and everyone from Batman to Deathstroke) have made comments supporting this fact.
DD's radar sense is indeed impressive but does it allow him the ability to know what his opponent is going to do before they do it? Not only does Cass' ability afford her this advantage but she can mimic the moves of her opponents (think Echo and Taskmaster). Not only that but her body reading should allow her the ability to deduce that DD is blind and possible exploit this knowledge. Either through skill or gadgets. Their both highly skilled martial artists (among the top in their respective companies) so it could go either way.
" Biggest threat to DD in this battle is Cassies skill, She is almost flawless. But this is nothing new to DD, he has fought people who are much better H2H fighters then himself and came out on top, Cap is one that springs to mind and the PJ assassin Elecktra . "
I wouldn't say Cap is a better hand to hand fighter (skill wise). If he is its not be much/enough to be considered "much better." I get what you are saying though, but it pretty much equals Cass beating Deathstroke (Cap) and Shiva(Elektra).
@Final Arrow said:
" But I don't think Cass will work out DD is blind as quick as Bruce did, the two had sometime with each other if I remember right before Bruce figured it out. I know cass can read movements but that is (correct me if im wrong) more focused on combat then normal movements! I think it would take her longer to connect the dots then it did for Bruce. "
Her ability to read people actually extends beyond just combat. She's been able to pick out a character with morphing abilities simply be looking at them (even though they had morphed). Here's a perfect explanation of her ability
The last statement is the best one @Final Arrow said:
" For me DD radar sense gives him the edge, the reason he often gets the upper hand is because of this, as the fighters know nothing about each other, I think this gives him the edge at the start. My question is how long would he have before Cass managed to figure out that he has some type of Radar sense and use that against him!! Is it enough time for DD to pull the win?? I think it is.... "
I see his radar sense and her ability are basically one in the same. The advantages his senses grant him are countered by the advantages her body reading grant her. Her ability is called Body Reading but as you can see from the scan above its actually much more then that. She should be able to tell he is blind almost right of the bat which if she employs gadgets should give her the advantage.
@ThaMessenger07: hmmm this could go either way i say they are even in speed (both dodging bullets, taking down multiple targets) i'll give martial arts skills to Cass while DD is good, she's been trained since birth by the best, but strength goes to DD he is bigger and more muscular i mean she's just a really deadly 17 year old girl, the big factor is cass's gear, will she figure out he's blind and has a weakness to sound? if so she could use some type of sonic grenade or high explosive to disrupt his senses
@Gambler: What issue was that, it's something I have never seen before pretty badass :o. With that taken into account, I will agree that she could figure out he is blind, but Im not sure how much of a difference that will actually make in the over all scheme of things. It won't change the way they fight. The only way I see it helping is it will allow her to figure out his radar sense quicker and allow her to use her gadgets...I'll get back to that.
Again I agree that DD is equal to cap or Cap is not that much better and they both have similar feats in combat, Cass has bullet speed and DD has shown bullet speed reaction. I don't know how either is going to get the upper hand in pure H2H and agility, it' going to be a pretty brutal back and forth between the two. They both have the same level of accuracy, I would give agility an edge to DD, but Cass makes up for that in speed, its a very even battle all things considered.
back to the gadgets and this is more a pet peeve then anything else. What gadgets do we count as standard, Flash bangs, smoke, Taser and so on, do we count Sonic grenades. She does have that modified net and the batarangs that we have seen her use, but what does Cass actually carry in the belt! we know it's a little different from Bruce and the others due to the things already stated, even Shiva was impressed with how Cass had changed a few of the things in the utility belt to suit her needs!! She designed her weapons to reflect her fighting ability(as we saw when she reappeared, when tim found her) But what do we count as Standard gear?
I don't think Cass has faced anyone with a sense like her own well this close to it and until she finds away to get round that Radar sense I can't see her taking the win. If she does get the Radar sense down then she just has to let loose and get in close!!
Sorry, I did not notice you posted a scan of her out moving a bullet till Gambler referenced it. Still not efficient enough. If she closes the distance she needs to worry about loosing the full view of his body which allows her to gain a better reading. Her skill is visual, DD's is the shadow opposite as I said above.
@Gambler:@comicdude23:@The Stegman: I agree that we initially agreed lol if that makes any sense.
Nothing against you cause I am glad to respond and enjoy a good debate but you responded my initial stmt made to another viner. Had it been our Debate from the beginning we would have gaped the speed issue. I am not much of a Batgirl Follower and have brief knowledge of her most of it being from features with her rarely as the title character.
The problem is there is no explanation as to how she dodges the bullet. Did she hear it, did she see it, did she sense it, does she have cosmic awareness or is she a Jedi and used the force? There has to be some kind of anticipation, which the real-time action does not show but the training flash back does. She clearly is anticipating the shot in the Training, that is why she is standing in front of a Target Board with her father aiming a gun at her.
I find it unlikely that she can detect his Handicap. He spends his life training not to reveal his power and trick people/heroes/villains and seem normal as DD yet play off as if he has none as MM. Not to mention DD's training/experience should supersede her own, since he is older and has been trained since his early teens/ late childhood. He was also trained in deadly arts that were used by a Ninja clan to battle off another ninja clan, evil spirits and beast. Not to assassinate fat Drug Lords and Business Moguls. He also has Boxing training that dates back to his early child hood. In his first venture he hunted down the gangsters that killed his father and beat 3 of them nearly to death, one being a massive man who was a skilled fighter and chased the other one down till he died by falling out a window. DD has killed and has shown that he can reach in and use that dark Assassin inside of him as he proved when he went to prison.
The main reason I say his abilities are superior is due to the fact that his training and experience is greater then hers, not necessarily in effectiveness but in time frame. Not to mention as you said I feel there abilities are almost one in the same except his are non visual. When there back is turned to each other or they are in a dark room his abilities are still in effect, while she needs to see him to use her skill. Since he has more of a power that has been honed, then a skill acquired he should have a sufficient advantage.The environment they are fighting in is a ghost city. No traffic lights ticking, buses, cars, trains, people, almost no noise at all. Just there footsteps and movements. She will put up a good fight but DD will win this fight.
" @Gambler: What issue was that, it's something I have never seen before pretty badass :o."
V.1 #47
@Final Arrow said:
" It won't change the way they fight. The only way I see it helping is it will allow her to figure out his radar sense quicker and allow her to use her gadgets "
I'm not sure if it would or not. Theoretically a character who can read moves to the extent of predicting their attacks before they are made should be able to manipulate the battle (through angles, noise, misdirection, etc) in such a way that they are able to exploit this knowledge. We've seen Lady Bullseye use this to create a suit that muffled her heart rate to the point where DD could not hear/sense its beat and there for was unable to anticipate her moves. Cass has actually stopped her heart without the aid of a suit or gadgets. If she can out right stop it, its believable that she can control its rate of speed, possible slowing it enough to disrupt DD's ability to sense it. Of course thats speculation on my part.
@Final Arrow said:
"Cass has bullet speed and DD has shown bullet speed reaction. I don't know how either is going to get the upper hand in pure H2H and agility, it' going to be a pretty brutal back and forth between the two. They both have the same level of accuracy, I would give agility an edge to DD, but Cass makes up for that in speed, its a very even battle all things considered. "
I actually think Cass is the more skilled/technical fighter here. With her ability to almost instantaneously learn new techniques and fighting forms she should have a more extensive library of styles. Its more likely for her to break out with something DD's never seen before then vise versa. Their fighting skill is close, but I think she's slightly above him. Enough to give her an advantage as well. I also wouldn't give him the nod in agility (could be wrong but I haven't really seen any feats that put him above her). Both have been artistically depicted with the double flips,roof jumps, cartwheel attacks, etc. He may be a better acrobat, but so is Nightwing and it really hasn't done him any good. If I remember correctly out of all their encounters there was only one issue (Batman and the Outsiders) in which he actually landed any shots on her in a straight up fight. There was the one-shot knock out in Titans East but she was going after Deathstroke and he initially grabbed her from behind.
@Final Arrow said:
" back to the gadgets and this is more a pet peeve then anything else. What gadgets do we count as standard, Flash bangs, smoke, Taser and so on, do we count Sonic grenades. She does have that modified net and the batarangs that we have seen her use, but what does Cass actually carry in the belt! we know it's a little different from Bruce and the others due to the things already stated, even Shiva was impressed with how Cass had changed a few of the things in the utility belt to suit her needs!! She designed her weapons to reflect her fighting ability(as we saw when she reappeared, when tim found her) But what do we count as Standard gear? I don't think Cass has faced anyone with a sense like her own well this close to it and until she finds away to get round that Radar sense I can't see her taking the win. If she does get the Radar sense down then she just has to let loose and get in close!! "
I agree. Bat-Gadgets are, and always will be, "They have what they need when the need it" type of deal. Speaking from a comicbook standpoint and not a battle thread one. In comics she's whipped out gas-masks and nigh vision goggles on the fly. But as far as "standard" gear I'd say the grappling hook, shurikens and bat-a-rangs are the most commonly used. I dont know if I've ever actually seen her use flash bangs or even smoke grenades before. Although she did use some sort of burning powder on Dog in their fight. The belt has several visible pouches so who knows what all is in them. I have no problem though limiting her standard gear to the most commonly used items. As far as facing opponents with senses like her own there is Ravager and Shiva. One is a precog and the other has the same abilities as Cass. Theres also Batman who's combat anticipation is almost a super power in its own right. With her ability to prediect moves she should be able to dictate where DD is going to move before he does it. Like throwing a couple bat-a-rangs in certain locations knowing that it'll cause him to dodge, and before he actually does it she'd know where he is going to end up and get there first. Thats my take anyway.
@ThaMessenger07 said:
" Nothing against you cause I am glad to respond and enjoy a good debate but you responded my initial stmt made to another viner. Had it been our Debate from the beginning we would have gaped the speed issue. I am not much of a Batgirl Follower and have brief knowledge of her most of it being from features with her rarely as the title character. "
My initial post was only intended to correct you about the statement you made about her speed. There was a scan right above your post that showcased her bulletspeed but I think at the time you had missed it.
@ThaMessenger07 said:
" The problem is there is no explanation as to how she dodges the bullet. Did she hear it, did she see it, did she sense it, does she have cosmic awareness or is she a Jedi and used the force? There has to be some kind of anticipation, which the real-time action does not show but the training flash back does. She clearly is anticipating the shot in the Training, that is why she is standing in front of a Target Board with her father aiming a gun at her."
Just going off that particular scan the explanation is clear, its her speed/reflexes. It shows her training to dodge bullets (after they've been fired). In the training sequence we can agree there most be a level of anticipation, but the scan clearly goes out of its way to show the bullet being fired and she still hasn't moved, next frame the bullet is closer and she still hasn't moved, final frame the bullet is inches away and she dodges it. Now take the DD scan in question, the context of narration is meant to imply that he's already started reacting to the shot thanks to his hearing. In the Cass scan she doesn't move until the last minute. We're shown the bullet moving towards her and her not moving for several frames. Now skip ahead to the same scan post-training sequence. She does not know the sniper is there and the practice sequence is mixed in with the real time act of dodging the bullet. This again is done to show her having the ability to dodge bullets after they've been fired. Here's a scan describing her abilities and how she obtained them.
@ThaMessenger07 said:
" I find it unlikely that she can detect his Handicap. He spends his life training not to reveal his power and trick people/heroes/villains and seem normal as DD yet play off as if he has none as MM. Not to mention DD's training/experience should supersede her own, since he is older and has been trained since his early teens/ late childhood."
Cass' ability allows her to detect characters who can morph their appearance like Mystique with a simple glance. Deducing DD is blind shouldn't cause her any struggle at all. DD's training was nothing like Cass'. She was trained sense birth no holds barred. If she failed she died. She was fighting grown men as a kid. Killing at age nine. Her ability allows her to pick up new techniques and styles within minutes, sometimes instantaneously. Everybody she fights is pretty much older and extensively trained. Not to mention her own rigorous training regiment.
@ThaMessenger07 said:
" He was also trained in deadly arts that were used by a Ninja clan to battle off another ninja clan, evil spirits and beast. Not to assassinate fat Drug Lords and Business Moguls. He also has Boxing training that dates back to his early child hood. In his first venture he hunted down the gangsters that killed his father and beat 3 of them nearly to death, one being a massive man who was a skilled fighter and chased the other one down till he died by falling out a window. DD has killed and has shown that he can reach in and use that dark Assassin inside of him as he proved when he went to prison. "
Cass was trained by her father, David Cain, as well as the League of Assassins. David Cain is one of the men who trained Bruce Wayne. Breaks Cain's thumb as a baby. And then gets first hand knowledge of Silver Monkey More training. Mimics her fathers moves
"When you go into your combat mode you're pretty much perfect right? Speed, Technique, everything. So why do you train all day long? With your abilities you dont really have to train do you?"
@ThaMessenger07 said:
" The main reason I say his abilities are superior is due to the fact that his training and experience is greater then hers, not necessarily in effectiveness but in time frame. Not to mention as you said I feel there abilities are almost one in the same except his are non visual. When there back is turned to each other or they are in a dark room his abilities are still in effect, while she needs to see him to use her skill. Since he has more of a power that has been honed, then a skill acquired he should have a sufficient advantage.The environment they are fighting in is a ghost city. No traffic lights ticking, buses, cars, trains, people, almost no noise at all. Just there footsteps and movements. She will put up a good fight but DD will win this fight. "
Her training began at a younger age and was far more intense. She was so extensively trained that the portion of her brain which is used for reading and speech was replaced with combat. Instead of being able to read words she could read people. Her speech was combat. (the scan I posted up above for Arrow illustrates my point best).
Except they're not in a dark room with their backs turned to eachother. Thats like saying if their in a small room with a tone of noise, commotion, and other debilitating factors that she would win. She may need to see him in order for her abilities to work but he needs to hear. Its the same level of disadvantage/advantage no? He can hear her and she can see him in this set-up. She'll be able to deduce he's blind before he figures out she can read him like a book. She can generate noise, and yes, he could try to take the fight somewhere she couldnt see but first he'd have to know what her abilities are. I dont see how he would. Not before she ends the fight anyway.
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