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#1 Posted by mrtrevorguy (1198 posts) - - Show Bio

i know most people will say Carnage right off the bat, but give it some thought, Mac is physically stronger the Carnage, (according to Marvel's power grid) but Carnage is also a better fighter (through experience,) Fight takes place in new york subway station, no prep time, both are bloodlusted, fight is till death or ko 
i don't want any BFR's in this, 

#2 Posted by mrtrevorguy (1198 posts) - - Show Bio

anyone?

#3 Posted by The_Mayhem_Theory (1060 posts) - - Show Bio
After a tough battle, probably Carnage unless Venom gets a hold of him. I'm uncertain for right now.
#4 Posted by venomoushatred1001 (12334 posts) - - Show Bio

Carnage curbstomp.

#5 Posted by jashro44 (20801 posts) - - Show Bio

I heard current carnage beat iron man and spider-man at the same time...He stomps.

#6 Posted by mrtrevorguy (1198 posts) - - Show Bio
@jashro44: yes he did, when he had the cosmic power, he took on the avengers (including Thor) and spider-man no problem
#7 Posted by progenitor (7534 posts) - - Show Bio

I'll go with Carnage on this one, even if Venom is currently stronger, Carnage took on Venom and Spidey before, which would probably equal, if not max, the current Venom's strength, so Carnage could take it.
#8 Edited by SlimJ87D (9662 posts) - - Show Bio
@progenitor said:

I'll go with Carnage on this one, even if Venom is currently stronger, Carnage took on Venom and Spidey before, which would probably equal, if not max, the current Venom's strength, so Carnage could take it.

At that time Venom was rated at 11to 15 tons I think. Later in his career he reached 25 tons and was able to beat Carnage (I think) and his offspring (who were 35 tonners same as carnage) 1 on 1. 
 
That was Brock. Mac was in the 60 ton range. Carnage is in the 35 ton range.  
 
 Honestly I think Carnage is overrated. 
 
@jashro44 said:

I heard current carnage beat iron man and spider-man at the same time...He stomps.

He only did with PIS. He had control of technology and merged with it. And he never won, he was just giving them a hard time with a lot of PIS. Was a pretty boring story IMO. 
#9 Posted by InnerVenom123 (29499 posts) - - Show Bio

Carnage wins due to Mac's ineptitude. 

#10 Posted by jashro44 (20801 posts) - - Show Bio
@SlimJ87D said:
@progenitor said:

I'll go with Carnage on this one, even if Venom is currently stronger, Carnage took on Venom and Spidey before, which would probably equal, if not max, the current Venom's strength, so Carnage could take it.

At that time Venom was rated at 11to 15 tons I think. Later in his career he reached 25 tons and was able to beat Carnage (I think) and his offspring (who were 35 tonners same as carnage) 1 on 1. 
 
That was Brock. Mac was in the 60 ton range. Carnage is in the 35 ton range.  
 
 Honestly I think Carnage is overrated. 
 
@jashro44 said:

I heard current carnage beat iron man and spider-man at the same time...He stomps.

He only did with PIS. He had control of technology and merged with it. And he never won, he was just giving them a hard time with a lot of PIS. Was a pretty boring story IMO. 
can I see scans? He was upgraded by tech its basically a new carnage.
#11 Posted by Erik (32286 posts) - - Show Bio
@SlimJ87D said:
@progenitor said:

I'll go with Carnage on this one, even if Venom is currently stronger, Carnage took on Venom and Spidey before, which would probably equal, if not max, the current Venom's strength, so Carnage could take it.

At that time Venom was rated at 11to 15 tons I think. Later in his career he reached 25 tons and was able to beat Carnage (I think) and his offspring (who were 35 tonners same as carnage) 1 on 1. 
 
That was Brock. Mac was in the 60 ton range. Carnage is in the 35 ton range.  
 
 Honestly I think Carnage is overrated. 
 
@jashro44 said:

I heard current carnage beat iron man and spider-man at the same time...He stomps.

He only did with PIS. He had control of technology and merged with it. And he never won, he was just giving them a hard time with a lot of PIS. Was a pretty boring story IMO. 
Agreed on every point you made. Especially how Carnage is overrated.
#12 Posted by SlimJ87D (9662 posts) - - Show Bio
@jashro44: scans of what?
#13 Posted by ManofSteel (115 posts) - - Show Bio

Mac Gargan , due to strength advantage.

#14 Posted by jashro44 (20801 posts) - - Show Bio
@SlimJ87D:were there scans detailing his upgrades in that series?
 
btw the marvel hand book had carnage ranked at class 50 tons.
 
http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/8863/carnagepowerabilitiesofficialtd5.png
#15 Edited by SlimJ87D (9662 posts) - - Show Bio
@jashro44 said:

@SlimJ87D:were there scans detailing his upgrades in that series?  btw the marvel hand book had carnage ranked at class 50 tons. http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/8863/carnagepowerabilitiesofficialtd5.png

That's real interesting. I'll have to look at another handbook. That handbook scan you showed has one key flaw and it says "estimated." 
  
Here I believe was Eddie's last and most updated handbook entry as Venom. It list him as class 25. Around this time he demonstrated high resistance to fire and fought Carnages offspring who are suppose to be as strong as Carnage himself. There are scans of  him 1-2ing Scream and knocking her out cold.  
 
  
 
 
 
 EDIT: I guess you are right. Carnage is class 50.  It doesn't change the fact that Mac has the strength advantage at Class 60. This actually makes all of Brocks victories over him 1 on 1 even more impressive though. 
 
 
 

#16 Posted by TheTrollDance (172 posts) - - Show Bio

Carnage stomp

#17 Posted by karrob (4279 posts) - - Show Bio

Carnage

#18 Posted by Superskrull86 (1831 posts) - - Show Bio

Venom
#19 Posted by mrtrevorguy (1198 posts) - - Show Bio
@SlimJ87D: were did you get that info on carnage? is there a website or something? its very well layed out
#20 Posted by Super_SoldierXII (6244 posts) - - Show Bio

Carnage shouldn't curbstomp this at all. This should be a very good fight actually.
#21 Posted by jashro44 (20801 posts) - - Show Bio
@SlimJ87D said:
@jashro44 said:

@SlimJ87D:were there scans detailing his upgrades in that series?  btw the marvel hand book had carnage ranked at class 50 tons. http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/8863/carnagepowerabilitiesofficialtd5.png

That's real interesting. I'll have to look at another handbook. That handbook scan you showed has one key flaw and it says "estimated." 
  
Here I believe was Eddie's last and most updated handbook entry as Venom. It list him as class 25. Around this time he demonstrated high resistance to fire and fought Carnages offspring who are suppose to be as strong as Carnage himself. There are scans of  him 1-2ing Scream and knocking her out cold. 
Here's the thing. That's not carnage. spider-man effortlessly over powered 3 of those children.
Now here is carnage stating he is stronger and faster then Eddie and Eddie responds with "maybe so but your not smarter" Venom just acknowledged that carnage is stronger and faster. Then finnally this last scan is from Carnage first fight with spider-man and venom
#22 Posted by SlimJ87D (9662 posts) - - Show Bio
@mrtrevorguy said:
@SlimJ87D: were did you get that info on carnage? is there a website or something? its very well layed out
It's from a handbook. I just googled it :D
#23 Posted by SlimJ87D (9662 posts) - - Show Bio
@jashro44: Also, we are not talking about Eddie here. And I never said Eddie was stronger or faster, he's a better fighter. 
 
We are talking about Mac Venom here and he is the one that is stronger and maybe faster than Carnage. 
#24 Posted by jashro44 (20801 posts) - - Show Bio
@SlimJ87D said:
@jashro44: Also, we are not talking about Eddie here. And I never said Eddie was stronger or faster, he's a better fighter.  We are talking about Mac Venom here and he is the one that is stronger and maybe faster than Carnage. 
he is completely useless...Eddie has a better chance to be honest. It was even stated he was the better venom yes gargan may have been better physically but he just couldn't do anything in combat. Besides current carnage is something called mass carnage he beat iron man and spider-man at the same time that's better then what mac ever did.
 
#25 Edited by SlimJ87D (9662 posts) - - Show Bio
@jashro44: How does that scan support anything? It's just a group of people talking. That's like me saying the earth is flat because it's flat on a map. 
     
I  mean I agree that Eddie Venom could outsmart Mac Venom no problem but that's because he'd outsmart him. In this case we can't go by ABC logic, it doesn't work here. That's also why Eddie later in his career would stand a better chance against carnage because he's smarter and managed to become more durable than carnage against fire and that's why he has a better chance. Carnage isn't smarter than Gargan and he's just as dumb so their fight is goign to play out with who is stronger.  
 
Their both idiots, they're both going to hit each other till one is down and since Mac is stronger he has a better chance of surviving that fight. 

The OP didn't say which Carnage he is using. Normal showings or the techno-organic PIS carnage.   
#26 Posted by mrtrevorguy (1198 posts) - - Show Bio
@SlimJ87D:  its not all about strengths Carnage has many powers that Venom doesn't  he can block out Venom's "spider sence" and can also create projectial weapons in which can be throw at venom 
#27 Posted by mrtrevorguy (1198 posts) - - Show Bio
@SlimJ87D: Also Carnage isnt as dumb as Mac is, he rates alot higher on intelligence then mac does on marvels power grid, hes also higher in fighting skills
#28 Posted by SlimJ87D (9662 posts) - - Show Bio
@mrtrevorguy: But what good do projectile weapons do to symbiotes? And I'm not talking about their old showings but their more new showings. They take bullets and stabs like nothing. 
 
Mac Gargan Venom has shown to manipulate his suit and it's mass also. So with greater mass he could deliver even greater blows. So Mac does have that advantage as well. He has created large hands to smash things, large as a person. 
 
So sure Carnage can created bladed weapons,  but Mac can increase his size greater than Hulk giving him the mass manipulation advantage. And as we all know the greater your mass is the greater the force is you can inflict on your opponent. 
#29 Posted by jashro44 (20801 posts) - - Show Bio
@SlimJ87D said:
@jashro44: How does that scan support anything? It's just a group of people talking. That's like me saying the earth is flat because it's flat on a map.      I  mean I agree that Eddie Venom could outsmart Mac Venom no problem but that's because he'd outsmart him. That's also why Eddie later in his career would stand a better chance against carnage because he's smarter and managed to become more durable than carnage against fire and that's why he has a better chance. Carnage isn't smarter than Gargan and he's just as dumb so their fight is goign to play out with who is stronger.   Their both idiots, they're both going to hit each other till one is down and since Mac is stronger he has a better chance of surviving that fight. The OP didn't say which Carnage he is using. Normal showings or the techno-organic PIS carnage.   
It proves that if eddie couldn't handle carnage gargan has no chance.
 
My understanding is we use current versions unless stated other wise of the characters in battle fourum and current carnage was upgraded. Why are you declaring his new upgrades are pis when it only has 1 showing? its quite possible a charcter can be upgraded to be a lot stornger then he was originally. He beat both iron man and spider-man at the same time with these new upgrades gargan never beat anyone of any significance ever when he was venom.  Also gargan isn't really that far above venom is strrength carnage can also make up for that by turnning his hands into blades.
#30 Posted by SlimJ87D (9662 posts) - - Show Bio
@jashro44 said:
@SlimJ87D said:
@jashro44: How does that scan support anything? It's just a group of people talking. That's like me saying the earth is flat because it's flat on a map.      I  mean I agree that Eddie Venom could outsmart Mac Venom no problem but that's because he'd outsmart him. That's also why Eddie later in his career would stand a better chance against carnage because he's smarter and managed to become more durable than carnage against fire and that's why he has a better chance. Carnage isn't smarter than Gargan and he's just as dumb so their fight is goign to play out with who is stronger.   Their both idiots, they're both going to hit each other till one is down and since Mac is stronger he has a better chance of surviving that fight. The OP didn't say which Carnage he is using. Normal showings or the techno-organic PIS carnage.   
It proves that if eddie couldn't handle carnage gargan has no chance.  My understanding is we use current versions unless stated other wise of the characters in battle fourum and current carnage was upgraded. Why are you declaring his new upgrades are pis when it only has 1 showing? its quite possible a charcter can be upgraded to be a lot stornger then he was originally. He beat both iron man and spider-man at the same time with these new upgrades gargan never beat anyone of any significance ever when he was venom.  Also gargan isn't really that far above venom is strrength carnage can also make up for that by turnning his hands into blades.
Your scan at the TV with all the heroes don't prove anything that is what I'm talking about. 
 
Why do people keep saying he beat Ironman and Spider-man? From my memory he got the hell out of there because he would have lost and got contained. He did not beat them for the last time. Sure he gave them a hard time. Also that whole fight was not straight up. Ironman and Spider-man had to worry about civilians and the users of the suits. There was a lot of things going on in that whole story arc. And that's why his showings are misunderstood or PIS. You are giving Carnage too much credit, like I said in the end I didn't see Spider-man and Ironman retreat I remember Carnage retreating.  
 
I don't have the issues here, I'll have to reread them after work but user Erik did agree that the whole issue was pretty much PIS. 
 
in a fight with Gargan he's not going to care if Carnage is hurting civilians. He's not going to go out of his way to try and make sure they are safe.
#31 Posted by SlimJ87D (9662 posts) - - Show Bio
@mrtrevorguy said:
@SlimJ87D: Also Carnage isnt as dumb as Mac is, he rates alot higher on intelligence then mac does on marvels power grid, hes also higher in fighting skills
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/4/43469/937041-official_handbook_of_the_marvel_universe___spider_man_2004___05_super.jpg 
 
 In reality, Kassedy is just a killer. Mac was at least a detective before he became a villain. 
#32 Posted by mrtrevorguy (1198 posts) - - Show Bio
@SlimJ87D: the bigger you are, the harder you fall ;)  
, don't just blow off my other point, having a spider sense is quite the thing, spider-man lost his spider-sense at one point, and someone shot him, he wasn't fast enough, carnage blocks out venoms spider sense, that gives carnage a huge advantage venom is used to fighting with his spider sense, not having it will throw him off, (not normally for eddie as hes used to fighting carnage but Mac has never actually fought  Carnage (hence this post)
#33 Posted by InnerVenom123 (29499 posts) - - Show Bio
@SlimJ87D said:

Your scan at the TV with all the heroes don't prove anything that is what I'm talking about.  Why do people keep saying he beat Ironman and Spider-man? From my memory he got the hell out of there because he would have lost and got contained. He did not beat them for the last time. Sure he gave them a hard time. Also that whole fight was not straight up. Ironman and Spider-man had to worry about civilians and

 the users of the suits.

 There was a lot of things going on in that whole story arc. And that's why his showings are misunderstood or PIS. You are giving Carnage too much credit, like I said in the end I didn't see Spider-man and Ironman retreat I remember Carnage retreating.   I don't have the issues here, I'll have to reread them after work but user Erik did agree that the whole issue was pretty much PIS.  in a fight with Gargan he's not going to care if Carnage is hurting civilians. He's not going to go out of his way to try and make sure they are safe.
The users of the suits were dead when Carnage wore them. Just a random FYI. :) 
 
(Seriously, not being a d_ck or sarcastic or anything).
#34 Edited by SlimJ87D (9662 posts) - - Show Bio
@mrtrevorguy: Wait... I'm a little lost. Venom's spider sense?  
 
@InnerVenom123:  
It's cool, i know you're not. I do have to go back in read the issue. But peopel keep saying he beat them when he did not. Give them a hard time? Yes, but for story sake. 
  
 From my memory Venom doesn't have a spider-sense. But the suit is able to see almost virtually piece of surface area on itself and warns its user of incoming attacks.
#35 Posted by mrtrevorguy (1198 posts) - - Show Bio
@SlimJ87D: the suit didn't not initially have the spider sense, once it bonded parker, it developed his powers, (which is why it can craw walls, and converted itsself to peter to it shot out its own form os spider webs, this was passed down to carnage, but weakens through out generations,  he also developed his own "spider sense" that also has the abilty of spider-man sensing him in turn, carnage has the ability to block out both spider-man and its parents spider-sense  

#36 Edited by SlimJ87D (9662 posts) - - Show Bio
@mrtrevorguy: I really do not believe that Venom has a "spider-sense" what his suit does do is what I said early. It can see in a 360 degree and it warns him that way. It is not really a six sense.  
 
Do you have a scan taht says Venom has spider-sense? 
 
Everyone discusses it here and they all agree that he does not. Someone mention that he should but he has never been shown to use it or even have it. 
 
http://www.comicvine.com/venom/29-1486/does-venom-have-spider-sense/92-415290/
#37 Posted by mrtrevorguy (1198 posts) - - Show Bio
@SlimJ87D: heres a scan that has spider man admit venom has all his powers, 
#38 Edited by SlimJ87D (9662 posts) - - Show Bio
@mrtrevorguy: He hardly knows anything about Venom there, that is more of a speculation from what he can see while they are fighting. It's not like Spider-man at that point knew Venom really well and what it could truly be giving Brock. All he can see is that he is more agile and stronger like a spider. 
 
Venom doesn't have spider-sense like spider-man. 
#39 Posted by mrtrevorguy (1198 posts) - - Show Bio

its not exactally like spider-man, but carnage still blocks out his abiltiy to sense him,  
not only that, Carnage is a phycopath... 
he has no problems doing things like this....

#40 Posted by superojsimpson (784 posts) - - Show Bio

carnage cause he's red and red is the color of marvel.

#41 Posted by mrtrevorguy (1198 posts) - - Show Bio
@SlimJ87D: Carnage also has one other huge advantage, the symbolte is merged with his bloodstream, if Carnage gets Eddis suit off, hes done, i't wont work the other way around because if Kasady gets a little cut, Carnage will be born again :)
#42 Posted by theicon (1797 posts) - - Show Bio

venom

#43 Posted by Death Certificate (5438 posts) - - Show Bio

Carnage wins. Mac jobs too much

#44 Edited by SlimJ87D (9662 posts) - - Show Bio
@mrtrevorguy: Where does it block his sense to sense him? The symbiotes can see through their invisible eyes throughout the suit. It is not a 6th sense like I told you.  
 
Also, Eddie knew that Carnage was going to give birth to Toxin and he was able to sense him that way. I don't get what Carnage blocks of Venom's but I don't think it is anything important that will change the battle. 
 
Originally I was just making a case for Mac but didn't believe he would win. But the more I look into myself I think he does win because he is stronger and can deal far more damage than Carnage can. Sure Carnage has had the opportunity to mass murder, but that was also PIS that the FF, Ironman and most of the avengers were out of the city that week and Captain America came back a little early.  
 
 
 
Venom Mac is just stronger, has the mass advantage which will let him deal heavier blows. Carnages bladed weapons won't matter because Venom Mac has dealt with being cut, stabbed and shot with no problem at all.  
 
What advantage does Carnage have over Venom Mac that Mac can't deal with? Being psycho? I don't see any good reasons that mac can win against Gargan. 
#45 Posted by mrtrevorguy (1198 posts) - - Show Bio
@SlimJ87D:Carnage isn't that much below Mac's strength level plus strength dosen't count for everything in a battle, 
#46 Posted by SlimJ87D (9662 posts) - - Show Bio
@mrtrevorguy said:
@SlimJ87D:Carnage isn't that much below Mac's strength level plus strength dosen't count for everything in a battle, 
he is 10 tons lower. That is 20,000 lbs weaker. That is pretty significant.  
What advantages does he have? We already went through that Venom does not have a spider-sense. He can make bladed weapons that are useless because Gargan has been cut, shot and even sliced in half where you could see his spine and he regenerated. He's psycho which doesn't really matter. 
 
Now the only thing Carnage can't do is increase his mass and become even stronger. 
 
Both are not as smart as Spider-man or Brock when it comes to fighting, both will take the fight heads up and the only outcome is who is stronger because they are pretty much equal in all other departments. The whole suit in his blood stream isn't going to matter because that's not going to stop  him from being stopped. That's just going to help him come back for another comic book issue. 
#47 Posted by Death Certificate (5438 posts) - - Show Bio
@SlimJ87D
That's swordman. Mac lost to that guy 

#48 Posted by Enzeru (2954 posts) - - Show Bio

Isn't Carnage the one who can control a symbiot near perfectly, while the others often struggle with their symbiotes?
It should be a pretty could fight, but in the end I would still give it to Kletus, since he was always a way more dangerous fighter, while Mac Gargan was an extreme jobber... As the Scorpion and even as Venom.

#49 Edited by SlimJ87D (9662 posts) - - Show Bio
@Death Certificate said:

@SlimJ87D
That's swordman. Mac lost to that guy 

And the point is? Has Carnage gone up against Swordsman? It's nice to know that Venom survived from that too. 
#50 Posted by mrtrevorguy (1198 posts) - - Show Bio
@Enzeru: yes he can 
 
@SlimJ87D: Venom (as Eddie) was weaker then Carnage and look what eddie was able to do... 
Mac dosent hit nearly as hard as these guys do, so if Eddie can take it so can carnage, we also see him damaging foes with alot more range between him then Mac and Carnage have