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#51 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

1) Your right, I need to stop the Condescending. Sry.

2) Again you have to take into account this is Spider Man in his first 20 issues. He has no grasp of his abilities, how to fight, or anything. On Stats alone he easily got tag but totally prevented Electra from winning as well, he was then fine after that. Pete when he died around 150 issues was much more trained as well prepared.

Granted I have not read Warriors Arc. However since she cannot kill him when he was a total Newb, I fail to see how she pwn him in any later arc, what was the context there?

3) He was subdued, then easily broke out of the handcuffs, and evaded the cops at the same time.

He was also shot by the cops to begin with because he was trying to reason with them and did not think for a second they would shoot him.

Didnt really faze him in the end as with the shot shoulder, he breaks out of the handcuffs and easily evades the whole police force out there.

4) I like to think you read them, and I am not trying to sound mean, but the way your describing everything seems you either skimed them or not remember them fully.

Now onto Ox.

1) Ox is beyond Peak Human. he can smash a Car top, glass and frame made for roll overs, with a single hit of his fist!

2) Ox falls on a car and shatters the windshield. Take a baseball bat to your car window. Guarantee it will take 4-5 good swings to do what Ox casual fall onto the hood with his HEAD!

Ox is Super Human.

#52 Posted by VeganDiet (1029 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2:

2. There's not really any special circumstances to their fight in the Warriors arc. There's a lot of different heroes and villains slugging it out, Spider-man webs them all up, everyone breaks free (Well, everyone with a cutting weapon does), Elektra and Spider-man go at it one-on-one, and she pretty decisively beats him.

3. The amount of panel time it takes and from the sounds he was making before, during, and after the breaking of the cuffs doesn't make it seem like he did it easily, to me, at least.

So then where was his spider sense? If his spider sense didn't warn him of that attack, then it must not be near as useful as the 616 Spidey's.

He was still momentarily taken out by being grazed by a bullet.

4. It's been a while yes, but I went back and read over everything that I was talking about before I made any claims about anyone.

1. What happened doesn't really seem that far out of reach for a comic book peak human. I mean, Daredevil has flipped over a limousine, and he's peak human.

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#53 Edited by Veshark (9058 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2

Again...I agree that Ultimate Cap would take a majority - and in this instance I think that Cap's slight edge in HTH wouldn't be able to beat Ult. Cap's mix of both good HTH and superhuman strength. I'm not contesting that.

But I just wanted to point out that while Cap's HTH skills aren't always able to surmount superior physicals, he has repeatedly shown to be able to. And as shown in him beating up an entire room of elves with his bare hands, he stands a chance of giving Ultimate Cap a tough fight even if he can't beat him.

#54 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2:

2. There's not really any special circumstances to their fight in the Warriors arc. There's a lot of different heroes and villains slugging it out, Spider-man webs them all up, everyone breaks free (Well, everyone with a cutting weapon does), Elektra and Spider-man go at it one-on-one, and she pretty decisively beats him.

3. The amount of panel time it takes and from the sounds he was making before, during, and after the breaking of the cuffs doesn't make it seem like he did it easily, to me, at least.

So then where was his spider sense? If his spider sense didn't warn him of that attack, then it must not be near as useful as the 616 Spidey's.

He was still momentarily taken out by being grazed by a bullet.

4. It's been a while yes, but I went back and read over everything that I was talking about before I made any claims about anyone.

1. What happened doesn't really seem that far out of reach for a comic book peak human. I mean, Daredevil has flipped over a limousine, and he's peak human.

2) Well that is then it is consistent.

1 match Spider stomps in one match with ease both her and King Pin.

2 matches Spidey and Electra were even match.

1 match Spidey lost after dealing with a room full of supers.

Seems average to me.She does not pwn him or humilate him. If anything her skill, willing to go for kill shots, plus Pete holds back, even them a bit.

3) His spider sesne is not precognition as 616 Petes have been shown (Depending on writer and arc :/ ) where Ultimate Spidey sesne constantly rings when in danger. Basicly it warn him of the danger, he ignored the fact ihe would be shot by a cop.

Also that showing was in Spider Mans 4th month as a hero. Hardly fair to point out a showing where he still has not mastered his powers. It isnt till the Spider Clone arc that Spidey starts having over 2 years of real experience.

4) Daredevil flipping a Limo is PIS/WIS as Spider Man KOing Firelord. Ox on the other hand was hired by King Pin due to his insane physical power.

#55 Edited by VeganDiet (1029 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2:

2. Those matches were not close to even. Elektra tagged him effortlessly, then almost killed him in round 1. In the match on the building, during the Black Cat arc, he was barely even able to counter attack, and was kicked off a building. Immediately after that he was grumbling about how badly he'd gotten his butt kicked.

He didn't deal with a room full of supers all fighting against him. Everyone was fighting everyone else and only for, like, 2 pages. During those pages he mostly fought Elektra, or fodder, anyway, and they were mostly even. He then just spammed webbing everywhere. After Elektra broke out, she absolutely stomped him. She would have been just as tired from the previous fight as Spidey, possibly more so as she does not have super human stamina like Spider-man, but she still took him out.

Elektra has a pretty impressive record against Spidey.

3.Then that puts him at a pretty big disadvantage in this fight. He's fighting someone who has warning of all his attacks, whereas Ultimate Spidey's does not seem near as effective.

As for the inexperience thing, that's a fair point.

3. It still doesn't seem out of the realm of peak human capability to me, but I suppose it's up to our own interpretations.

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#56 Edited by CalebHara (2329 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump

#57 Posted by laflux (15405 posts) - - Show Bio

4) Daredevil flipping a Limo is PIS/WIS as Spider Man KOing Firelord. Ox on the other hand was hired by King Pin due to his insane physical power.

Daredevil does some other good Strength feats. He was able to wield a 400 pound Barbel like a bo staff. Flipping the Limo is probably a high end feat, but remember when Hawkeye flipped a car off himself with one hand :P ?

#58 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@laflux said:
@cadencev2 said:

@vegandiet said:

4) Daredevil flipping a Limo is PIS/WIS as Spider Man KOing Firelord. Ox on the other hand was hired by King Pin due to his insane physical power.

Daredevil does some other good Strength feats. He was able to wield a 400 pound Barbel like a bo staff. Flipping the Limo is probably a high end feat, but remember when Hawkeye flipped a car off himself with one hand :P ?

No actually.

#59 Edited by krauser99 (826 posts) - - Show Bio

@laflux said:
@cadencev2 said:

@vegandiet said:

4) Daredevil flipping a Limo is PIS/WIS as Spider Man KOing Firelord. Ox on the other hand was hired by King Pin due to his insane physical power.

Daredevil does some other good Strength feats. He was able to wield a 400 pound Barbel like a bo staff. Flipping the Limo is probably a high end feat, but remember when Hawkeye flipped a car off himself with one hand :P ?

Daredevil has also busted through thick sewer walls when fighting Sabretooth, to moving the special designed vault door(King Pins door) that even Spiderman himself strained a bit to do it. Daredevil struggled much more as well.

#60 Edited by jashro44 (20810 posts) - - Show Bio

@laflux said:
@cadencev2 said:

@vegandiet said:

4) Daredevil flipping a Limo is PIS/WIS as Spider Man KOing Firelord. Ox on the other hand was hired by King Pin due to his insane physical power.

Daredevil does some other good Strength feats. He was able to wield a 400 pound Barbel like a bo staff. Flipping the Limo is probably a high end feat, but remember when Hawkeye flipped a car off himself with one hand :P ?

No actually.

Pretty sure it was written by Bendis.....Bendis force>>>>>>>>>>>>Odin force.

#61 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44: ..... Bendis is a hack writer. He forgoes limits and realism as well common sense when he writes these days. He did a excellent job on USM, now he blows.

#62 Posted by jashro44 (20810 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2: LOL I know. Did you here he had luke cage tank a nuke in age of ultron? Pretty sure most would agree he isn't to be trusted after that....

#63 Posted by laflux (15405 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44: Yes I know, hence the :P sign.

This is where I usually rant about how Bendis has destroyed my favorite villains but it seems the hate swirling around is enough to hold my tongue, just about :P

#64 Edited by jashro44 (20810 posts) - - Show Bio

@laflux: LOL yea I am glad people are understanding why Bendis writing shouldn't be taken too seriously.

#65 Edited by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:

@laflux: LOL yea I am glad people are understanding why Bendis writing shouldn't be taken too seriously.

Bendis does for Avengers what Loeb did for Red Hulk. BS!

#66 Posted by krauser99 (826 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:

@cadencev2 said:

@laflux said:
@cadencev2 said:

@vegandiet said:

4) Daredevil flipping a Limo is PIS/WIS as Spider Man KOing Firelord. Ox on the other hand was hired by King Pin due to his insane physical power.

Daredevil does some other good Strength feats. He was able to wield a 400 pound Barbel like a bo staff. Flipping the Limo is probably a high end feat, but remember when Hawkeye flipped a car off himself with one hand :P ?

No actually.

Pretty sure it was written by Bendis.....Bendis force>>>>>>>>>>>>Odin force.

Truth be told I don't think that such a bad feat since it is done on one side of the car. And Hawk has shown incredible upper body strength as IIRC Strong athletic men fail to stretch his bow as he does it "easily". That's a impressive good feat for him.

#67 Posted by jashro44 (20810 posts) - - Show Bio

@krauser99: I'm not an expert on the math but I'm pretty sure what hawkeye just did is a 1-2 ton feat. I don't think he is that strong. He is suppose to be peak human. Unless he has shown feats of that level regularly I wouldn't take it to seriously.

@cadencev2:

Yea pretty much. Hopefully now that he isn't writing avengers he can stop writing so many inconsistencies....

#68 Posted by SlimJ87D (9675 posts) - - Show Bio

Between Ultimate Captain America and 616 captain America, there's no proof as to who is better than the other in skill. They are about equal. Ultimate captain America has a pretty good track record in all of his fights even though he doesn't have nearly as much appearances. What Ultimate Captain America does have is a healing factor greater than 616, higher durability and greater strength. Speed wise they might be the same, might. Ultimate Captain America would probably beat 616 Captain America 7.5/10.

616 Spider-man seems to have better training and when comparing their bests lifting feats, 616 probably edges it out. Ultimate Spider-man I believe had started some combat training with SHIELD and had a few lessons under ultimate Cap, probably nothing as intensive as Spider-man creating a martial arts that suits him with Shang Chi. I'd say 616 wins it 6.5/10 times.

That being said, I think Ultimate Captain America finishes off 616 Cap faster than 616 Spider-man can take out Ultimate Spider-man. Ultimate Captain America will probably start healing up pretty quickly and will have time to rest with Ultimate Spider-man's help. Double teamed, 616 Spider-man can't take on Ultimate Captain America and Spider-man.

Team 2 wins it 6/10

#69 Edited by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@slimj87d said:

Between Ultimate Captain America and 616 captain America, there's no proof as to who is better than the other in skill. They are about equal. Ultimate captain America has a pretty good track record in all of his fights even though he doesn't have nearly as much appearances. What Ultimate Captain America does have is a healing factor greater than 616, higher durability and greater strength. Speed wise they might be the same, might. Ultimate Captain America would probably beat 616 Captain America 7.5/10.

616 Spider-man seems to have better training and when comparing their bests lifting feats, 616 probably edges it out. Ultimate Spider-man I believe had started some combat training with SHIELD and had a few lessons under ultimate Cap, probably nothing as intensive as Spider-man creating a martial arts that suits him with Shang Chi. I'd say 616 wins it 6.5/10 times.

That being said, I think Ultimate Captain America finishes off 616 Cap faster than 616 Spider-man can take out Ultimate Spider-man. Ultimate Captain America will probably start healing up pretty quickly and will have time to rest with Ultimate Spider-man's help. Double teamed, 616 Spider-man can't take on Ultimate Captain America and Spider-man.

Team 2 wins it 6/10

Pretty much. 616 Cap is the weak link.

#70 Edited by Lvenger (19320 posts) - - Show Bio

@slimj87d said:

Between Ultimate Captain America and 616 captain America, there's no proof as to who is better than the other in skill. They are about equal. Ultimate captain America has a pretty good track record in all of his fights even though he doesn't have nearly as much appearances. What Ultimate Captain America does have is a healing factor greater than 616, higher durability and greater strength. Speed wise they might be the same, might. Ultimate Captain America would probably beat 616 Captain America 7.5/10.

616 Spider-man seems to have better training and when comparing their bests lifting feats, 616 probably edges it out. Ultimate Spider-man I believe had started some combat training with SHIELD and had a few lessons under ultimate Cap, probably nothing as intensive as Spider-man creating a martial arts that suits him with Shang Chi. I'd say 616 wins it 6.5/10 times.

That being said, I think Ultimate Captain America finishes off 616 Cap faster than 616 Spider-man can take out Ultimate Spider-man. Ultimate Captain America will probably start healing up pretty quickly and will have time to rest with Ultimate Spider-man's help. Double teamed, 616 Spider-man can't take on Ultimate Captain America and Spider-man.

Team 2 wins it 6/10

Pretty much. 616 Cap is the weak link.

Seconded but I'd change the ratio of 616 Spidey beating Ultimate Spidey to 7-8/10. Ultimate Pete is way outclassed physically, skill wise and experience but he might just hold Peter off long enough for Ultimate Cap to beat 616 Cap. Then Team Ultimate FTW.

#71 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger: That is what I banking on. Ultimate Pete holding out which he should. Speed wise they are same as well Strength (on Average) and Durability. They only reason 616 Pete would win is due to better Spider Sense and Skill.

Meanwhile 616 Cap is completely outclass by Ultimate in every way but skill, which then is near even as Ultimate Cap skill is one of the top 3 best in the Ultimate World. I would only rate Ultimate Shang Chi and Ultimate Red Skull higher in skill.

#72 Edited by Lvenger (19320 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2: Where does Ultimate Shang Chi appear? I remember that Red Skull storyline where he kicked Ultimate Cap's ass all over the place.

#73 Edited by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger said:

@cadencev2: Where does Ultimate Shang Chi appear? I remember that Red Skull storyline where he kicked Ultimate Cap's ass all over the place.

Yeah. Red Skull had superior stats to cap and had more training for many years compared to Cap.

Shang Chi appeared in the Ultimate Marvel Team Ups.

He appears again in Ultimate Spider Man with iron Fist I believe.

He was the worlds best train martial artist and untouchable in Kung Fu.

#74 Posted by SlimJ87D (9675 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger: cADENCEv2 made a pretty good respect thread for ultimate Spider-man that showcases some good strength feats. I think he could hold off 616 Spider-man a lot longer than 616 Cap can hold off Ultimate cap.

#75 Posted by Lvenger (19320 posts) - - Show Bio

@slimj87d: Hmm may have to have a look at that despite my feelings towards Bendis' current writing. Ultimate Spider-Man was good I have to say.

#76 Edited by SlimJ87D (9675 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger said:

@slimj87d: Hmm may have to have a look at that despite my feelings towards Bendis' current writing. Ultimate Spider-Man was good I have to say.

Yeah take a look at it. Nearly mortally wounded he managed to take on the sinister 6, lifts up a 9 ton truck and uses it like a baseball bat smashing it into Green goblin multiple times.

A lot of skill, strength and willpower there. Him and 616 Peter at the same age, around high school, he has had much more impressive feats I believe from that showing. To 616 Peter's defense comics weren't that detailed back in the classic cage though.