Captain Marvel vs Superman

1. Well given that Blaze intervened and gave Adam powers from the Egyptian Gods, I fail to see how their feats can be seen as the same when their power source comes from different gods. Plus Superman never usually fights Billy at super speed like he does to so many other opponent. When he did fight Billy at super speed, as in the scan I showed, he KOed Billy in two hits. Not fair but it was a showing of the combat speed edge Superman has over Billy.
2. I've seen most, if not all the scans for Superman vs Captain Marvel fights and I hardly ever see those two engage in super speed combat. Superman speed blitzes Mongul, Imperiex Drones, Equus, a group of Dark Gods, Ultraman and more foes that range from being as powerful as him to weaker than him. There's consistent proof of this in Pre Flashpoint canon. Yet when facing Billy, he never uses his speed blitzing or reaction times whose feats put him on a level far beyond Billy. You need to show me evidence of Billy doing things like reacting at nanoseconds to an exploding baby or searching holograms of the Legion of Superheroes mid battle before Power Girl finishes saying Clark. Because from the Captain Marvel respect threads I've seen on KMC, there's a severe lack of combat speed feats for Billy. Hell I remember one scan where he says he'd have trouble reaching the necessary speed to travel through outer space when Superman can do that just fine. Again that's travel speed which you are known for distinguishing from combat speed on here but still...
3. I could nitpick and show Superman's better strength and striking feats but I'll leave that part out. I agree that Billy is capable of knocking Superman out but the sucker punch is a one off PIS non repeated feat. I don't know how many times I have to repeat that, let alone to you, but it seems to be unclear. So I'll say it again, that one off magic sucker punch only happened once whilst Billy was Captain Marvel. I've never seen Billy use magically enhanced punches against Superman ever again and to say that Billy has the magic to KO Superman based on a one off showing is a massively flawed argument as I have demonstrated already. If this was New 52 Billy, I might grant you that point since his punches clearly have lightning radiating from them which indicates the magic in his punches.
4. Only on the physical level. Once Superman uses his combat speed, reactions and strategic experience, Billy cannot compensate for these edges except with the magic lightning and Superman's resisted that in the past along with other magic attacks that I know of.

Now this is something I made a thread about but got no responses on but at least now I can be direct with this question. Does Eclipso's possession of a super powered host amp up their physical stats? Superman beating Lobo whilst possessed by Eclipso the first time can be linked to his superior speed and versatility not to mention instances when Superman has gotten the better of Lobo. And in the Captain Marvel fight, Superman only punched Billy from Metropolis to Hawaii (which honestly isn't outside his striking range), tossed a submarine at him and tanked his lightning. Superman's shown magical resistance feats before and Eclipso's possession of a super powered host has been sketchy at best as to what he does to them. To normal hosts, he amps their power massively that much is obvious. But the same is unclear for a super powered host.

No, I think there's another instance, but it might be from the Golden Age. Not sure. I haven't gone through Captain Marvel respect threads for a long long time now.

I'll admit, as of right now I don't have any evidence right now that presents Captain Marvel performing many speed feats.

The only thing that comes to my mind are DC handbook entries that state Captain Marvel is equal to Superman and Black Adam in all areas, but I don't have those resources with me right now either.

I still feel that there isn't evidence which proves he's not on par with Superman's speed either. I still feel there is a lack of evidence on whether he is or isn't as fast and capable as Superman and Black Adam. But when I get home I'll try and dig through any bios or handbook entries I might have on Captain Marvel and his speed.

@slimj87d:

I checked as well to see if I was mistaken but there aren't many, if any combat speed feats for Captain Marvel.

Which versions of the handbook are those? In any case, the handbooks can state all they want how equal Superman and Captain Marvel are but until Billy shows some proper combat speed feats, he cannot compensate for Superman's distinct advantage.

Because he hasn't shown any combat speed feats, that's why. Whereas there is evidence to show how fast Superman and therefore that can be taken over the non existent feats from Billy. I'll be interested to see what you can find on this topic though.

If you have the chance, can I see the whole set of scans of Superman knocking CM out from what you posted earlier? Seems cool.

@slimj87d: The whole set from the scan earlier? That was the only one in the sequence just so you know. It's from JSA #34 - Stealing Thunder, Part 2 of 5: Troublestruck where Ultra Humanite mind controls a bunch of heroes and a new JSA including Captain Marvel goes to stop him. Whilst battling a group of mind controlled Titans and Leaguers, Superman sucker punches Captain Marvel twice to KO him. That's the only scan in that 'fight.'

@lvenger: Thanks. I know there's another awkward scan of Power Girl french kissing Superman to distract him so Captain Marvel can knock him out.

@slimj87d: Yep I remember that weird instance. Mind control again :P

@lvenger:

The scan above says that Captain Marvel has strength and powers ON PAR with Superman, as a bonus it even says that his powers are "similar" to Black Adams, but again we discussed why I brought up Black Adam, lets not take things out of context again and assume their feats are interchangable.

"par (pär): An equality of status, level, or value; equal footing: a local product on a par with the best foreign makes."

There are other handbook entries that came inside of the Captain Marvel comics where they describe Captain Marvel as "equals" to Superman if my memory serves me correct, but the scans above are good enough already to show that DC intended for Captain Marvel's stats to be close to equal to Superman.

Now the argument was that Superman can speed blitz Captain Marvel. I asked previously how when they are close in stats. I presented the argument that there is more evidence to suggest that Captain Marvel is as fast as Superman than there is evidence that Superman is significantly faster than Captain Marvel.

For a speed blitz to happen, you would have to be significantly faster than your foe. Although Superman has blitzed previous opponents before, he's never been shown to blitz Captain Marvel and they have battled plenty of times. A similar foe that has been shown to be able to blitz his opponents and battled the man of Steel is Black Adam. Black Adam is someone whom Captain Marvel has battled before and has never been shown to be able to speed blitz Captain Marvel either.

The counter argument against me is simply that Superman has an abundance of speed feats, ones that Captain Marvel has never shown to replicate mostly do to his limited appearances. Because of this reason alone, the argument suggests that Captain Marvel is not nearly as fast as Superman, and that Superman can easily speed blitz and beat Captain Marvel without Captain Marvel literally seeing what's happening. This argument does not hold much to any weight at all. The two have battled plenty of times, and excluding sucker punches, neither has ever outblitzed the other in speed. The only solid evidence you can present is if:

1. A blitz actually happened in one of their "fair" encounters.

2. One of the characters performed a speed feat that the other character could not only replicate, but wasn't even close to replicating.

3. A narration that just plainly states it itself.

Any one of the 3 would solidly prove that Superman can speed blitz Captain Marvel, but none of that hasn't been presented. The only evidence being used is that Superman just has speed feats, while Captain Marvel hardly has any. With the DC Encyclopedia itself stating that they are on par, I would like to state that there is more solid evidence to suggest that they are on par with each other in all areas of strength and powers and that neither can significantly outdo the other in any areas. This evidence outweighs the counter argument that lacks any solid evidence to back it up.

Lastly, as an added bonus and not part of my argument, we know that DC intended these two heroes to be on par with each other. Although not canon, just take a look at all their other universal appearances. Captain Marvel has kept up with Superman's speed on panel and blitzed some of Superman's rogues as well.

As for the battle, I would say it's close to 50/50.

Superman wins

@slimj87d said:

@lvenger:

The scan above says that Captain Marvel has strength and powers ON PAR with Superman, as a bonus it even says that his powers are "similar" to Black Adams, but again we discussed why I brought up Black Adam, lets not take things out of context again and assume their feats are interchangable.

"par (pär): An equality of status, level, or value; equal footing: a local product on a par with the best foreign makes."

There are other handbook entries that came inside of the Captain Marvel comics where they describe Captain Marvel as "equals" to Superman if my memory serves me correct, but the scans above are good enough already to show that DC intended for Captain Marvel's stats to be close to equal to Superman.

Strength has been proven on panel in their fights/contests in the comics. Handbooks can say Captain Marvel is on par with Superman on every level as much as they want but the fact remains that unlike in the strength area where Billy has proved himself to be on par with Superman's strength, Billy does not have the combat speed or reaction feats to put him on Superman's level. I've been through a good few respect threads for Billy and I might use him in a CAV so I'll be doing this again soon but to my knowledge, the lack of identifiable combat speed feats trumps any handbook entry that claims Billy is equal to Superman in every way without the proof to back it up which you still lack. Billy does not have the feats of him using his speed in the same way Superman does in combat ie moving his limbs at hypersonic+speeds or displaying reaction time comparable to making the world stand still and all that.

@slimj87d said:

Now the argument was that Superman can speed blitz Captain Marvel. I asked previously how when they are close in stats. I presented the argument that there is more evidence to suggest that Captain Marvel is as fast as Superman than there is evidence that Superman is significantly faster than Captain Marvel.

Nope there isn't I'm afraid. You haven't shown any evidence to support your case whereas I've shown multiple scans of Superman using his speed in combat and can do so a dozen times over. The fact remains that Billy does not have strong combat speed or reaction feats. I've checked the thorough KMC respect thread and in no scan does he hit his foes with multiple strikes like Superman does, he doesn't set off hypersonic booms with his punches or carry out a heated conversation in the middle of a fight like Superman does whilst literally fighting a foe across multiple countries

There is also a scan where Pre New 52 Captain Marvel claims he doesn't think he can make FTL travel across the bounds of space and he has to be given a Mother Box to get where he needs to go. This is something Superman does with ease on multiple occasions which you know of and I don't need to cite. I'll try and find this if I can. Hence this is even more solid proof that along with Billy not using his speed in combat like Superman does, he may not be able to travel anywhere near as fast as Superman at all.

You're missing the entire point of what a speed blitz is. Speed blitz fights can be carried out at incredible speeds just like DBZ fights are fought. Although Billy may have the speed of Mercury, he never displays any significant prowess with using his speed in combat. As for your Black Adam example, again their powers and combat tactics cannot be compared eye to eye since their powers come from different sources and they themselves are different people. Furthermore, Adam's fights with Billy and his one fight with Superman were pure slugfests. Both characters brawled with each other instead of using their speed to deliver more blows mid combat. I've seen all the scans to those fights and this fact is evidently clear. I can cite the scans if you honestly want me to but I'm confident enough in this assertion to not include them in this part of my post. Thus the idea that Billy can't be blitzed by Superman is undermined by the fact that his fights with Superman have been constrained by the writer to be pure brawls rather than how Superman has fought other foes before.

It's not only that. The ultimate fact that you cannot counter no matter how hard you try is that Billy never uses combat speed or reactions in combat. It's not my case that holds no weight, it's yours because no matter what you say, you cannot dispute the on panel, verifiable, observable and undisputed evidence that Billy does not use speed blitzes in his fights. The same cannot be said for Superman who is an incredibly experienced speed blitzer and knows how to use his speed in combat to maximise his chances of winning. Billy's speed feats are limited, perhaps due to lack of appearances but they're nonetheless demonstrations of how Billy does not use speed in fights and this puts him at a disadavantage against Superman because without WIS, Superman will use his speed in combat against Billy and there is no proof that Billy can counter it. He can tank the blitz but only for so long and multiple blitzes will eventually take him down. This is the blunt truth that you fail to understand undermines your case because the writers never show Superman and Billy going at it super speed style. Writers prefer powerhouses to slug it out with each other rather than use all their powers. Superman has done this with foes he could easily speedblitz but at least he has instances where he uses his speed on foes. Billy does not have that luxury

1. Explained above by writers preferring powerhouses to have slow brawls rather than practical and realistic uses of their powers.
2. Oh now this I can do. I'm surprised you've forgotten about this feat which I shall post below of Superman doing something that Billy absolutely cannot perform.
3. Writers prefer to state that certain characters are equal to others rather than showing it

I am honestly surprised you forgot about this one. How can Captain Marvel counter Superman speeding up his senses to match Flash's talking and movement speed so that it appears that time has stopped? Answer: He can't because not one of his feats show something to match this. I'll be interested to see if you can prove me wrong on this

Not to mention Superman's nanosecond reaction feat

Gallery

Well I have just presented two pieces of evidence that constitute solid proof that Superman can perform speed feats that Billy cannot replicate. The official Marvel handbook lists Thor's speed as a 7 yet his abysmal combat speed performances against Spider-Man, Moongoose, Wolverine and Captain America's training exercise, all of whom are street levellers directly dispute that handbook showing don't they? Your handbook evidence only makes a small part of the overall debate when so many more on panel showings discredit any notion that Superman and Billy are equals in speed. I can prove my assertion ten times over but you have to rely on mere statements to make your argument. An unspoken rule on the battle forums is that feats>statements and this has been the deciding factor on deciding whose arguments are more valid. Since I have supported my argument and countered yours, this outweighs your severely lacking attempt to make any sort of dispute against me when I have the necessary evidence and reasoning to conclusively prove that Billy not only lacks combat speed showings but also isn't as fast as Superman.

Marvel intended for Thor to be more powerful than the Hulk yet on many occasions the Hulk has gotten the better of Thor and vice versa. Wonder Woman was supposed to be Superman's physical equal upon creation but showings have put Superman squarely ahead of Diana as evidenced when he easily broke her wrist on the Sacrifice fight. You cannot rely on claims that these two were supposed to be equal when I have shown that Superman has a huge edge in feats and experiences with using his speed in combat. Finally, the non canon instances from Justice that you refer to are simply that. NON CANON. They cannot be used to compare how a fight between Pre Flashpoint versions of these characters would go. A What If? Secret Invasion story had Thor snap Sentry's neck in the end yet their Siege fight had Sentry at a very distinct advantage. The Siege instance is the more reliable fight since it is canon whereas the Secret Invasion one is not canon so it is not reliable evidence. Thus, when Superman's speed is conclusively proven as superior to Billy's, I fail to see how that won't drastically alter the outcome of their battle putting Superman at a slim majority.

@lvenger: I still stand by my argument. If you want, we can ask for people to vote and see how they feel or just call in other DC experts.

@slimj87d: As I do by mine. Maybe not the voting thing since this isn't a CAV lol but calling in other DC experts is the best bet of getting a good idea of which of our arguments holds up better.

Ehh, Billy still doesn't have any feats that compare with Superman being able to move around within the fraction of nano-second like it was real time

I think @buttersdaman000 knows quite a bit about Captain Marvel. We should probably ask people that wrote the Captain Marvel wiki page here too.

@powerherc@tgd124@mighty_max Does Captain Marvel have any good speed feats? Have narrations or anything in comics compared or called Captain Marvel's abilities and speed equal to Supermans? How do you feel abotu Captain Marvel's speed compared to Superman's? Could SUperman speed blitz Captain Marvel?

@slimj87d:

Captain Marvel used the speed of Mercury to catch the Flash in the "Justice" mini. He did this at Superman's suggestion after Superman admitted he couldn't catch the Flash.

Justice is non-canon IIRC

superman wins.

I'm not really an 'expert' per say, but I do know a bit. To answer your question below, yeah, he could speed blitz Superman. He did it in public enemies(?) and Superman even commented on how Captain Marvel was the logical choice to take him down. The feat and comment is a little discredited though when you find out Superman and Batman let themselves get taken. However, I think the speed blitz still stands since Superman definitely didn't see it coming.

That being said, I can't really think of an impressive combat speed feat from Captain Marvel. I'll go through my scans and comics later but for right now i'm drawing a blank.

Thank you. A lot of people here are claiming that Superman can speed blitz Captain Marvel and that Captain Marvel isn't that fast or impressive at all in the speed regard. From DC Encyclopedia, it's stated they are equal, but that is not enough to convince LVenger.

I'll answer that if I may. It was a simple straight line blitz wasn't it? Marvel wasn't moving his limbs at superhuman speed or perceiving things in slow motion like Superman can. He surprised Superman with a sucker punch just like Superman has done in the scan I showed you Slim. That's the only times when those two have speed blitzed each other, as a surprise attack. Thus the speed blitz doesn't stand otherwise I could make the claim that Superman can take out Marvel in two hits which is obvious PIS and discredited by Marvel's durability showings. However, since you know a bit about CM, perhaps you know the answer to this. Does Billy ever use his speed in combat like Superman does on a countless plethora of occasions? To my knowledge searching through many a Captain Marvel respect thread, that has not been the case in my own findings. Ultimately, my argument is that Superman will use his speed in combat whereas Cap will not and so he'll be overwhelmed by Superman's speed, strategy and experience. A less tentative but still solid argument I make is that Billy may not be as fast as Superman anyway.

@comic_book_fan: True, at least Captain Marvel is just a kid !

I mentioned in a thread that i lost a lot of my comics a couple months ago. I really wish I could help out, but Power of Shazam #1-48 were also in there lol. But, off the top of my head, I can't remember any exact microsecond, blur reaction speeds. However, I do remember a few super speed punches, bullet timing and things of that nature.

Yes, it is.

But it's still a published, non-fan fiction example which could be considered in the absence of any other speed comparisons between Superman and Captain Marvel.

@buttersdaman000: I'll grant you that these threads lacked the feats you mentioned here. But it's not as if Superman can't perform these feats with ease either. Hell he effortlessly grabs dozens and dozens of bullets out of the air in some feats as well as stopping people from shooting themselves in the head multiple times. That's true effortless bullet timing which Billy doesn't have.

Going to say Superman here.

@lvenger: Superman has also stated that when he moves at super speed, lightning travels on slow motion.

Billy's gonna have trouble tagging him with them.

@comicstooge: I have that scan so it would be hard for Billy to tag Superman with his Shazam lightning. Billy usually bear hugs Superman first so he can't dodge the lightning. But the point of contention here is whether Billy can speedblitz or display combat speed on Superman's level. And even though he has the odd speed feat, I don't think Billy can match Superman's combat speed or experience.

Yeah, I know. To clear things up, I wasn't arguing for Billy, I was just answering Slims question. I think Superman beats Captain Marvel too, but he does have speed on Superman's level as far as travel/blitzing goes. Captain Marvel is pretty much the true equivalent to Thor in DC lol

@lvenger: I agree with you.

I think I'd give Supes the win 7 or 8 out of 10 times.

@buttersdaman000: Perhaps travel speed but his lack of blitz feats has me questioning that assertion.

@comicstooge Same here.

Superman, thanks to greater speed, durability and strength feats.

Ah here's the scan I was looking for

Granted it's an older one but it still applies to Cap's travel speed

Superman

Agreed.

@thundergodswrath:

I'd take Cap over Supergirl or Powergirl, but not Superman. He's built a resistance to magic, equals Cap in strength and is faster I believe.

Superman in a very close fight.

@galacticravenous: Lol

Captain Marvel has a great advantage over him because of magic. So Cap wins via lightning weaken him and then punch him to the moon.

Captain marvel is stronger and faster and made of magic (supermans other weakness)

"Superhuman Speed: He can move at incredible speeds making him at least fast enough to race the Flash on foot. Captain Marvel can move fast enough to render himself invisible and seemingly vanish and disappear at will. Even Superman himself (who is one of the fastest beings on Earth) admitted Captain Marvel as faster than him, and even considered him fast enough to catch an unstoppable Flash."-http://shazam.wikia.com/wiki/Shazam

"Hercules, strongest of the gods. Billy is empowered with Hercules' nearly limitless superhuman-strength which is often compared to, rivals/ matches and possibly surpasses that of Superman." - comicvine

Not to mention the power of Zues boost all his already strong powers making him stronger then Hurcules and faster then Murcury. So just imagine Hurcules punches covered in Zues bolts coming at superman at speeds beyond Murcury. SHAZAM LAWYERED!

lol superman

This is basically spam

How is this spam. All these are relevant accurate points.

@ancient_0f_days: these are facts so get over it

Superman.

Wrong, Superman has helped move the planet, helped move the moon, cut one of Saturn's moons in half by flying through it, obliterated an energy based Shadow Moon by charging into it at 1% less than the speed of light, he's fought and physically matched some of the most powerful and strongest beings in DCU and he has physically overpowered Captain Marvel already. Superman has flown to the sun and back in less than a minute while grappling with Wonder Woman, has flown from another solar system to earth in minutes, has nano second reaction feats, can react at the speed of thought, can vibrate his molecules so fast they make him intangible or invisible, has blitzed more heroes and villains than Captain Marvel has, has used all of his powers like heat vision and freeze breath while blitzing, has moved so fast that the entire world around him seemed to stand still and while he was moving that fast was able to catch the Flash who was under a type of mind control. Superman has pushed through the powers of a magic user who was turning Wonder Woman back into clay with his magic, he's been granted a gift from the Phantom Stranger that shields him from magical attacks and while he was possessed by Eclipso he was struck by Captain Marvel's bolts many times and did not fall.

More to the point, Superman consistently uses his powers like heat vision, freeze breath, and super combat speed much more often than Captain Marvel ever used his magical abilties. In fact, he has walls worth of speed blitz feats unlike Captain Marvel who's best feat of speed is a race against the Flash. No one knows exactly how fast they were going, what we can say is that the Flash wasn't moving close to a fraction of his top speed since he can outrace time itself. So that race feat really doesn't matter against someone like Superman who better feats, we at least have an idea of how fast Superman and Flash were running since the world around them was frozen which makes Superman's feat more impressive. Strength of Hercules is a nice little claim, Wonder Woman was blessed with the strength of Gaea which is by her own admission greater than that of Hercules, it doesn't make her stronger than Superman and the same goes for Captain Marvel who like Wonder Woman is comparable and stated to be a match for Superman but has no such feats to prove that. Captain Marvel was blessed with the Speed of Murcury, Wonder Woman was blessed with the speed of Hermes, another cute title, but Superman still has superior travel speed feats to both of them. Captain Marvel being blessed by Zeus is nice as well, Superman is powered by the sun and and has displayed what he can do with his solar powers better than Captain Marvel has since all Captain Marvel seems to have picked up from Zeus is lighting based attacks. But like the other useless gimmicks it holds no weight other than to state the origin of his powers which are quantified by feats and feats alone and by feats he is not stronger, faster or more powerful than Superman.

He is also inexperienced compared to Superman who has forgotten more fights than Captain Marvel can remember, the wisdom of solomon is useful in some areas and can even be applied strategically but the fact remains that Billy Baston is a teenager and fights like a brawler. Superman was trained by Batman in the application of pressure points, he's been trained by Wonder Woman and fought beside her in a mystical 1000 year war and he has knowledge of kryptonian martial arts. He does not use pressure points or martial arts in many battles but his experience makes him a much better fighter than Captain Marvel ever was in his not so long career. Adding to Superman's experience is his general knowledge of his fellow teammates abilities and flaws, Captain Marvel is also predictable which is capitalized on by the Eclipso possessed Superman who grabbed Billy by the throat to stop him from saying Shazam. This can easily be exploited by Superman who knows Billy has to say the word to summon a bolt of lightning from the sky to strike him, and it doesn't help that Superman is faster than lightning.

You are wrong. Your source is a wiki, quotes from the site and your own assumptions which count for nothing, I can back up my post with all the scans I need. The only times Superman was even remotely close to some kind of loss to Captain Marvel was when he wasn't even fighting back at all and both times were before he was gifted with magical resistance by the Phantom Stranger. First he was sucker punched with magically imbued fists twice and didn't even bother fighting back or raising an arm in defense, second time he was caught completely off guard when his mind controlled cousin kissed him then Captain Marvel sucker punched him...there is no instance of Captain Marvel actually physically beating Superman regardless of his magical advantage.

Your definition of "relevant" and "accurate" need to change...cus those points were not factual, sound or indisputable.

Like I said, spam.