#1 Posted by k4tzm4n (34900 posts) - - Show Bio

Two famous duos face off... but who's left standing when they switch sidekicks?

Captain America / Nightwing

VERSUS

Batman / Bucky

Location

Rules

-Random encounter (this means they didn't have time to train together).

-Begin 30 feet apart.

-In character.

-Standard gear for all.

-Standard elimination rules apply.

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#2 Edited by SlimJ87D (10700 posts) - - Show Bio

@k4tzm4n: MIND ****!

Bruce usually dominates Grayson. We haven't seen a real fight between Bucky and Steve with any reasonable conclusions. In my respect thread for Bucky, I think it's pretty clear that Bucky is either as skilled as Steve or actually more skilled than he is due to his performance while lacking a SSS. Man this is real close, I think Batman and Bucky might take it 6/10 or it's 50/50.

#3 Posted by Dark Cloud™ (2386 posts) - - Show Bio

I consider Steve to be more capable a fighter than Bruce. The same goes for Dick over Bucky. So pitting Steve and Dick against Bruce and Bucky is straight overkill in my eyes. Team 1 7/10.

#4 Posted by SlimJ87D (10700 posts) - - Show Bio
#5 Posted by k4tzm4n (34900 posts) - - Show Bio

@SlimJ87D: Do you happen to have a handbook for Bucky? I think I've seen two (one as Winter Soldier, one as Cap) and his skill was 6 in one and 7 in another. I could be going crazy, though.

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#6 Posted by tg1982 (2712 posts) - - Show Bio

Captain America and Nightwing for the win 6/10

#7 Posted by Shawnbaby (10869 posts) - - Show Bio
@k4tzm4n said:

@SlimJ87D: Do you happen to have a handbook for Bucky? I think I've seen two (one as Winter Soldier, one as Cap) and his skill was 6 in one and 7 in another. I could be going crazy, though.

That could possibly be explained due to the brainwashing he was under as Winter Soldier could possibly have kept him from being at his peak ability. 
#8 Posted by k4tzm4n (34900 posts) - - Show Bio

@Shawnbaby: Or the handbook entries all over the place. I seem to recall Cap going from a 7 to a 6 when he was listed as "Captain Rogers." lol

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#9 Posted by tg1982 (2712 posts) - - Show Bio

@Shawnbaby: @k4tzm4n:

I personally put no stock in the handbook's or marvel site's stats they seem to be inaccurate and/or inconsistant with what is portrayed in the comics.

#10 Posted by Shawnbaby (10869 posts) - - Show Bio
@k4tzm4n said:

@Shawnbaby: Or the handbook entries all over the place. I seem to recall Cap going from a 7 to a 6 when he was listed as "Captain Rogers." lol

@tg1982 said:

@Shawnbaby: @k4tzm4n:

I personally put no stock in the handbook's or marvel site's stats they seem to be inaccurate and/or inconsistant with what is portrayed in the comics.

Yeah, I was just trying to create a more rational reason why there might be a discrepancy. 
#11 Posted by k4tzm4n (34900 posts) - - Show Bio

@tg1982: @Shawnbaby: Not sure why anyone would ever use stats from their website. Those things are all over the place and terribly inaccurate.

Regardless, I was only wondering.

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#12 Edited by tg1982 (2712 posts) - - Show Bio

@k4tzm4n: You'd be suprised how many people do use heir site for "statistical analysis". Maybe not on the Vine though that's why I come here the most.

@Shawnbaby: I see.

#13 Posted by Shawnbaby (10869 posts) - - Show Bio
@k4tzm4n said:

@tg1982: @Shawnbaby: Not sure why anyone would ever use stats from their website. Those things are all over the place and terribly inaccurate.

Regardless, I was only wondering.

Pretty much has always been the case...i remember back in the 90's when they had their trading card sets with the stats on them and often they would have different stats from year to year on characters. I think a lot of it stems from the writers taking liberties with what the characters supposed abilities are at times.
#14 Posted by tg1982 (2712 posts) - - Show Bio

@Shawnbaby: Yeah, I've always thought that too. Kind of confusing since one writer thinks that a 4 is peak human and another thinks a 3 is and you get someone like Punisher being stronger than Captain America (this is just an example)

#15 Posted by k4tzm4n (34900 posts) - - Show Bio

@Shawnbaby: The trading cards are notorious for terrible ratings. It's kind of amusing to think about how they ended up being all over the place.

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#16 Posted by Super_SoldierXII (6612 posts) - - Show Bio

@k4tzm4n: I CANNOT believe this hadn't been done before. Very good fight. Kudos. I'm leaning toward Bruce and Bucky atm.

#17 Posted by God_Spawn (38293 posts) - - Show Bio

Team 2.

Moderator
#18 Posted by k4tzm4n (34900 posts) - - Show Bio

@Super_SoldierXII: I was surprised as well! Thanks.

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#19 Posted by Shawnbaby (10869 posts) - - Show Bio
@k4tzm4n said:

@Shawnbaby: The trading cards are notorious for terrible ratings. It's kind of amusing to think about how they ended up being all over the place.

trudat
#20 Posted by SirMethos (1358 posts) - - Show Bio

Bruce has said himself that Nightwing is a better fighter.

Cap/Bucky is debatable, but Cap has far better feats.

Cap/Nightwing wins.

#21 Posted by Super_SoldierXII (6612 posts) - - Show Bio

@SirMethos said:

Bruce has said himself that Nightwing is a better fighter.

Cap/Bucky is debatable, but Cap has far better feats.

Cap/Nightwing wins.

What Batman said is hyperbole drawn against their feats. Batman is a notch above Nightwing without doubt. I see Nightwing as the weak link to be honest. Both Bucky and Bruce would beat him IMHO. And outside of a strict hand to hand fight, Bruce has admittedly got too many tricks in that belt of his that could feasibly take care of Steve. Were it strictly mano a mano, I choose Cap FTW. Add shield and utilities for Bruce, and I'm beginning to believe (after having read more Batman) that it's Bruce's fight to lose.

#22 Posted by nickthedevil (13900 posts) - - Show Bio

Bruce stalemates batman long enough for Bucky to trash Nightwing, then they double team Steve.

#23 Posted by Dex_Starr (4754 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickthedevil said:

Bruce stalemates batman long enough for Bucky to trash Nightwing, then they double team Steve.

=/

#24 Posted by nickthedevil (13900 posts) - - Show Bio

LOL I mean Captain America. **Bruce stalemates Captain america**

#25 Posted by ThexX (1576 posts) - - Show Bio

Team 2 Batman and Bucky for the win. Just wondering which Bucky is this BuckyCap or Winter Soldier (Before BuckyCap are After BuckyCap)

#26 Posted by k4tzm4n (34900 posts) - - Show Bio

@ThexX: It's BuckyCap.

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#27 Posted by Dex_Starr (4754 posts) - - Show Bio

Team 2 wins. Cap hasn't really done anything to suggest he can beat Batman. He has impressive physical feats but when it comes down to fights, Cap hasn't beaten anyone of Batman's caliber, where Bruce has beaten guys like Deathstroke and Prometheus who outclass Cap.

#28 Posted by Quntumking (215 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm going to pick CAP, but close. If it goes 5 rounds 3 Cap/2Bat.

#29 Posted by SlimJ87D (10700 posts) - - Show Bio

@k4tzm4n said:

@SlimJ87D: Do you happen to have a handbook for Bucky? I think I've seen two (one as Winter Soldier, one as Cap) and his skill was 6 in one and 7 in another. I could be going crazy, though.

Yeah I have those. What you said is true though. For the Winter Soldier series, these stats were posted in Brubakers run he's rated at a 7.

In the marvel handbook entry as Captain America he went down to a 6 for what ever reason.

But I think you guys discussed it already. I think once you get to a 5, 6 or 7 there are other factors that determine who would win. Black Panther is only a 5. Makes sense though since he studied all the martial arts in Wakanda, and is only vaguely familiar with other ones. Doesn't mean he can't fight though.

Honestly, I don't think Wolverine is deserving of a 7 and I hope they put him down to a 6. He doesn't know K'un Lun martial arts for example. And most of the time he uses Japanese martial arts. Rarely do I see him use Russian martial arts like Bucky, or Savate like Bucky, etc.

#30 Posted by SlimJ87D (10700 posts) - - Show Bio

@Dex_Starr said:

Team 2 wins. Cap hasn't really done anything to suggest he can beat Batman. He has impressive physical feats but when it comes down to fights, Cap hasn't beaten anyone of Batman's caliber, where Bruce has beaten guys like Deathstroke and Prometheus who outclass Cap.

What you say is probably true about Batman's fights with DS and Prometheus, but can I see scans of when he beat them? I vaguely remember, but I remember seeing DS beating Batman more times then not as well.

#31 Posted by Saren (25058 posts) - - Show Bio

I remember Bruce beating Prometheus, but that was with prep.

Moderator
#32 Posted by SlimJ87D (10700 posts) - - Show Bio

@CitizenBane said:

I remember Bruce beating Prometheus, but that was with prep.

How did he beat Deathstroke, didn't Deathstroke not have his serum and was sick later in bed and Batman commented on Slade being sick later?

#33 Posted by Saren (25058 posts) - - Show Bio

@SlimJ87D: I don't remember them fighting while Slade was depowered, but Bruce beat Slade once by snatching his gun away and whamming him with it (he took quite a beating before that, though). He also beat Slade along with Dick and Tim during Infinite Crisis, but that was an off-panel fight.

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#34 Posted by k4tzm4n (34900 posts) - - Show Bio

Someone ask Morph kindly and he can probably drop every Bruce vs Slade encounter ever.

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#35 Posted by Super_SoldierXII (6612 posts) - - Show Bio

@SlimJ87D said:

@k4tzm4n said:

@SlimJ87D: Do you happen to have a handbook for Bucky? I think I've seen two (one as Winter Soldier, one as Cap) and his skill was 6 in one and 7 in another. I could be going crazy, though.

Yeah I have those. What you said is true though. For the Winter Soldier series, these stats were posted in Brubakers run he's rated at a 7.

In the marvel handbook entry as Captain America he went down to a 6 for what ever reason.

But I think you guys discussed it already. I think once you get to a 5, 6 or 7 there are other factors that determine who would win. Black Panther is only a 5. Makes sense though since he studied all the martial arts in Wakanda, and is only vaguely familiar with other ones. Doesn't mean he can't fight though.

Honestly, I don't think Wolverine is deserving of a 7 and I hope they put him down to a 6. He doesn't know K'un Lun martial arts for example. And most of the time he uses Japanese martial arts. Rarely do I see him use Russian martial arts like Bucky, or Savate like Bucky, etc.

One can only be a 7 if they've mastered arms and munitions as well. Which Logan has. Seeing as how Steve has fought in WWII (has been protrayed at least using firearms) he should be proficient in their use as well. So perhaps there are other reasons behind his level 6 rating.

And I disagree that Logan mostly adheres to Japanese martial arts. Bushido (Samurai), Aikido & Karate aside, Japan doesn't have much to offer. He has mastered all forms of Kung Fu (many through Master Po), has studied in both past and present with Stick, and has been quoted professing to knowing and using many different styles besides. Due to his longevity and the fact he's been just about everywhere as an operative (Black Ops, CIA, Weapon X etc. etc.) he stands perhaps most to reason as having mastered most forms on earth than anyone else IMO.

I mean Bucky hasn't been seen demonstrating all forms of martial arts either. No one has really.

#36 Posted by Dex_Starr (4754 posts) - - Show Bio

@CitizenBane said:

I remember Bruce beating Prometheus, but that was with prep.

He was kicking Prom's ass until Prom shot him in the face

#37 Edited by SlimJ87D (10700 posts) - - Show Bio

@Super_SoldierXII: I didn't say Bucky should be a 7 either. Yes it would make sense for Logan to be the closest since he is over 100 years old, but like I said I haven't seen him use other forms of martial arts like savate, russian ones, etc. Maybe the weapon X program taught him those ones.

But the retcons are still going through where they put Steve, Bucky and a few others from a 7 to a 6. We'll see what happens when they get to Wolverine, Mister X, Omega Red, etc.

#38 Posted by ReVamp (22798 posts) - - Show Bio

Bucky and Batman. Nightwing is by far the weak link.

#39 Edited by SlimJ87D (10700 posts) - - Show Bio

@Dex_Starr said:

@CitizenBane said:

I remember Bruce beating Prometheus, but that was with prep.

He was kicking Prom's ass until Prom shot him in the face

This is taken from Morpheus_ post about that fight. I also looked the fight up, Prometheus did get away and Batman was prepped.

@Morpheus_ said:

@vuviper said:

" @Morpheus_: He already knew the first time that Prometheus had the skills and abilities of 30 martial artists on his helmet. Or at least Prometheus told him that. Batman was humbled after he was beaten and I think he knew it was true. But even from studying the helmet I'm not sure how it would make defeating someone much more skilled than you not a valid feat. I just consider it one of his high end feats that he would not be able to replicate on a regular basis.

"

He already knew, because Prometheus told him, as you say. By analyzing the helmet, Batman could become aware of who these specific martial artists were, as well as which styles Prometheus used against him. That could help him how Prometheus casually utilizes the helmet and understand the subtle, and small uses it may have - he seemed quite accustomed to them the second time around. Which tactics he favours. Taking Prometheus' arrogance into account, it would not be unlike him to try and defeat Batman in the same way he did the first time, or employ a tactic he thought Batman would not anticipate - only to find him being aware of it. At any case, it is all highly theoretical, and believe me, I am not one to diminish Bruce's skill and achievements, I just don't think it outside Batman's meticulous nature to try and do such a thing. It doesn't really take anything from the feat itself, but it does put it under another prism, which is what I wanted to point out, in the first place. It does not hold specific relevance to this fight, though.

I would have to agree that although it is a nice feat, it's on a another "prism" as Morpheus says here because of the prep, etc.

#40 Edited by SlimJ87D (10700 posts) - - Show Bio

@CitizenBane said:

@SlimJ87D: I don't remember them fighting while Slade was depowered, but Bruce beat Slade once by snatching his gun away and whamming him with it (he took quite a beating before that, though). He also beat Slade along with Dick and Tim during Infinite Crisis, but that was an off-panel fight.

@Dex_Starr:

I remember Morph posting scans about this fight too and addressing that Deathstroke had Batman on the ropes but was more occupied with trying to complete his mission, Like at 1:15, don't you think Deathstroke could have have done more to Batman when he was laying there? Deathstroke had enough time to get out of the elevator and relock onto his target.

Either way, I still think Batman with his gadgets holds off Steve just fine until Bucky comes and tips the favor for Batman and Bucky to win this.

#41 Posted by progenitor (7533 posts) - - Show Bio

@SlimJ87D said:

@k4tzm4n: MIND ****!

Bruce usually dominates Grayson. We haven't seen a real fight between Bucky and Steve with any reasonable conclusions. In my respect thread for Bucky, I think it's pretty clear that Bucky is either as skilled as Steve or actually more skilled than he is due to his performance while lacking a SSS. Man this is real close, I think Batman and Bucky might take it 6/10 or it's 50/50.

I concur with this. 50/50, IMO. I do see Grayson as the weak link in the chain.

#42 Posted by Dex_Starr (4754 posts) - - Show Bio

@SlimJ87D: What Deathstroke could of done to Batman the first 2 fights is irrelevant, in their third fight Batman was able to subdue him. Even though Slade has more victories over Bruce, Bruce still has a victory over Slade, where Cap doesn't have a win over an opponent of either of Batman or Deathstroke's caliber.

#43 Edited by SlimJ87D (10700 posts) - - Show Bio

@Dex_Starr: I don't know which fight you are referring to, that's what I was asking. Either you or Citizen said DS beat Slade by getting hit witha gun. The fight I posted int hat video, Batman hit Slade with the gun. Is that the fight you are referring to where Batman "beat" Slade?

Captain America has sparred against Shang Chi, and got a good strike on him that ended the spar. But they did have to go on their mission. Shang Chi has gone up against Wolverine, lost to him and beat him once.

Captain America has also beat Lady Deathstrike, someone that has stalemated Wolverine and was defeated by him a few times. Wolverine only could do so because of his Adamantium and healing factor. Deathstrike was beating him when he had bone claws and she stopped fighting him because a fight with him would only to her if Logan was at %100. Deathstrike is stronger, faster and more durable than Captain America and she has a healing factor, and Captain America compeltely dominated her. It's all ABC logic here, I don't know how Deathstrike would do against Shang Chi, and Wolverine most times has bested Cap. I don't think you could compare Deathstroke and Prometheus to Captain America because they fight very differently, one uses a shield very inhumanly.

On top of that, the census on the board state that Batman studied Prometheus and the 30 martial arts that Prometheus uses and prepared for a confrontation with him. Against Salde, I don't know which fight you are using, but the one in that Video, Slade pretty much told Batman he wasn't interested in fighting Batman, had Batman on the floor and returned to try and finish his mission. He was somewhat distracted. I would still say it's a win for Bats against Slade, but a clear win I would not agree with that notion.

As for the fight you are talking about, I don't know which one you are referring to. Is there another time Batman beat Slade?

#44 Posted by Dex_Starr (4754 posts) - - Show Bio

@SlimJ87D said:

@Dex_Starr: I don't know which fight you are referring to, that's what I was asking. Either you or Citizen said DS beat Slade by getting hit witha gun. The fight I posted int hat video, Batman hit Slade with the gun. Is that the fight you are referring to where Batman "beat" Slade?

That's the fight where Bats beat Slade, where he hit him with his own rifle.

#45 Posted by Super_SoldierXII (6612 posts) - - Show Bio

@SlimJ87D said:

@Super_SoldierXII: I didn't say Bucky should be a 7 either. Yes it would make sense for Logan to be the closest since he is over 100 years old, but like I said I haven't seen him use other forms of martial arts like savate, russian ones, etc. Maybe the weapon X program taught him those ones.

But the retcons are still going through where they put Steve, Bucky and a few others from a 7 to a 6. We'll see what happens when they get to Wolverine, Mister X, Omega Red, etc.

I get your point, and I don't mean to nitpick, but I think it's near impossible and impractical to physically portray and spell out every form 'x' hero was using in 'y' battle. There are hundreds, if not thousands, of different martial styles from around the world and throughout antiquity. I think a lot is meant to go without saying. We can say that about every single Marvel and DC character. Would be easy to find a fighting style or twelve for everyone that they've never been outwardly or overtly portrayed using.

And for the record, I personally, would have no problems believing Bucky is a 7 given his history and training. A 6 at the very least.

#46 Posted by SlimJ87D (10700 posts) - - Show Bio

@Super_SoldierXII: My main point of the thread though was that the rating system from 5 to 7 doesn't really matter. It's quality, not quantity. Shang Chi is rated 7, Cap is 6 now but he out sparred him. black panther is 5, but he has beat Cap before, maybe it has to do with his tech too though. Etc and etc.

#47 Posted by Super_SoldierXII (6612 posts) - - Show Bio

@SlimJ87D said:

@Super_SoldierXII: My main point of the thread though was that the rating system from 5 to 7 doesn't really matter. It's quality, not quantity. Shang Chi is rated 7, Cap is 6 now but he out sparred him. black panther is 5, but he has beat Cap before, maybe it has to do with his tech too though. Etc and etc.

I agree with that in part. But 'mastery' is mastery is it not? If one were to be presumed as a jack of all trades, then yes, I'd go with the bloke who has actually 'mastered' one or two significant forms of hand to hand than the one who is well versed in many, but far from mastered in some.

But if we guage ones abilities from 5 to 7 via quality and not quantity as opposed to quality AND quantity, then what is the point of the rating system as a barometer to begin with? Having mastered ALL forms of known combat is still better than one who has mastered or specialized in some but not all IMO if taken at face value.

#48 Posted by SlimJ87D (10700 posts) - - Show Bio

@Super_SoldierXII: There is proof for both sides. Example is Black Panther at 5 only supposedly mastering one kind of martial art. But he is also a genius. I think it gets much deeper with physical and mental ability as well. Amadeus Cho fending off Mister X lol.

#49 Posted by Silver2467 (16387 posts) - - Show Bio

Batman beat Prometheus in the hand to hand fight. Then Prometheus shot him in the chest and attempted to escape. Then Batman employed his gadget to control Prometheus' helmet to cause him to have the physicality of Stephen King and then punched him, smashing the helmet, and leaving Prometheus incapacitated. Prometheus never got away, and yes, he did lose.

#50 Edited by SlimJ87D (10700 posts) - - Show Bio

@Silver2467 said:

Batman beat Prometheus in the hand to hand fight. Then Prometheus shot him in the chest and attempted to escape. Then Batman employed his gadget to control Prometheus' helmet to cause him to have the physicality of Stephen King and then punched him, smashing the helmet, and leaving Prometheus incapacitated. Prometheus never got away, and yes, he did lose.

So what was Morpheus and CitizenBane talking about Batman prepping for the fight and studying the helmet and which martial arts Prometheus was using?