Captain America vs. Ra's al Ghul

I never got this, why is someone saying this any less important than a scan , in a context with no reason to lie, both are just ways for an author to get things across, PIS or not, it shouldnt matter.

Cap.

Steve

Cap.

@easternwind: go read the rules, then you'll understand.

This.

@slimj87d: You mean the forums rules? Which ones?

Edit: read em

I assume you mean PIS? I know the galactus statement is pis, but not because its a statement, because its inconsistant.

It could be argued that what Tim said is his opinion as a character, and not reflective of all the facts.

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Lets say a character says something like "I'm not good enough to win this fight"

This could mean he is not good enough, but could also mean he just has problems with his self esteem and confidence.

or

Character #1 could say "this fighter is garbage" which could mean that the fighter is indeed poor, but could also mean there is some resentment or bias between the two characters in question which is clouding Character #1's judgement.

etc etc

Yeah I really shouldnt have said anything.

It was kind of silly for me to say that when galactus is involved. I obviously dont think he stale mated galactus, but ive seen people through out statements in conditions where they shouldnt, like when that person has creative control.

I just dont think nightwing saying Ra's stalemated bruce is the same as Sentry stalemating galactus.

Just ignore me. Another debate for another time.

Don't worry about it, your question was totally understandable.

I'm not sure what Tim said should be entirely disregarded either, just that it can't be considered gospel truth.

Stalemate. Ghul got more experience and is a better fighter but Cap got 5% higher physicals.

Steve

Cap but not at all easily, and not a stomp.

Isn't Ra's not always portrayed at the level DC says he is at?

Steve

This is a great fight. I see Cap winning this fight but he will get some serious stab and slice wounds in that first round. Round two will be tough too. Round 1 Cap 6/10 Round 2 Cap 9/10

CA wrecks but he won't come out unscathed

Ra's is more skilled and is peak human, i believe he can win this.

Captain might win but Ra's would give him hell, he is more skilled and has more experience.

In a sword fight Ra's stomps though.

Cap beats the snot out of him.

Cap would stomp him. In a sword fight cap would still just out muscle him and get him to the ground and beat him down.

Ra's should win a slim majority in R1. He is actually very fast and has Superman with a kryptonite sword before, IIRC. SSS is not doing much against a sword to the head.

Steve would take a decent majority. Unless Ra's has some exceptional nerve strike feats, he is physically outmatched.

Ras isn't faster than Steve. I would like to know the issue number Ras held off superman but regardless that sounds like really bad writing. If you want to use those feats Steve wrecked the hulk with his bare hands. There isn't a reason Steve can just disarm Ras by breaking his sword with his shield.

Ras best hand to hand fights have context to my knowledge. He does know nerve strikes but Steve does to so no idea why that would make a difference.

@jashro44: It was probably in some Batman/Superman issue.

The reason why Ra's knowing nerve strike would make a difference is because Steve doesn't use them that often. Top combatants in DC does. But I've no idea how often Ra's uses them, so its kinda pointless to discuss this.

I'm going to need something more specific.

No one uses pressure points frequently. Do you know why? Because its a horrible way of fighting. It requires a lot of precision, and there difficult to land when your fighting someone who actually knows how to fight. Ras isn't landing a pressure point on Steve even if he tries. Heck Steve has better showings of pressure points. He's used them on people like USAgent and spider-man.

Ras isn't coming close to a majority. He wont get completely stomped but its a very clear win for Steve; and I would go so far as to say Steve wins every time. Ras track record isn't stellar in comparison to Steves.

@jashro44:

I'm going to need something more specific.

I actually don't remember the issue. I read it a long time ago. But I remember Ra's driving a kryptonite sword through Superman's arm. If anyone has scan, please post it. It happened though.

Ras isn't coming close to a majority. He wont get completely stomped but its a very clear win for Steve; and I would go so far as to say Steve wins every time. Ras track record isn't stellar in comparison to Steves.

In which round? I agree that Ra's looses a good majority in R2.

@rbt: Holding off Superman with a krypto sword? Alright if we are gonna go there Steve fought off a cruise ship full of female supervillians with minimal help from Paladin.

Until someone gives me an issue number with context I am going to say this never happened. Even if it did its bad writing. Post crisis superman can resist kryptonite to an extent and Ras isn't capable of reacting to superman. There isn't any reason superman can't fly out of range of the kryptonite sword and use a non lethal blast of heat vision to take Ras out. And again its not like Steve doesn't have showings equally as ridiculous or more so.

Both rounds. Ras has no chance at a majority. He puts up a good fight at best.

I probably made it sound more impressive that it was. Ra's did not hold off Clark. He just stabbed him once.

@jashro44: Steve has team busted groups of B and C list Villians on several different occasions if we want to use silly feats. ;)

@rbt: There still is no logical reason outside extreme context Ra could ever land a blow on Supes.

Yes but I am sure we can find stupider feats. IIRC he hurt Korvac when thor, wonder man, and a bunch of other avengers couldn't. I am sure with his planet busting strength he will overwhelm Ras...

Outside of standard "I forgot I have super speed" PIS which is common in comics.

@lukehero said:

Actually, its completely plausible that Ra's could land a blow on Superman with a Krytonite sword. In Hush, Batman was easily tagging Superman only with a small kryptonite ring. He even mentioned it that the kryptonite was slowing down Clark's reflexes. IIRC, Metallo shot Superman with Krytonite bullet once. Superman was also killed by a couple of thugs by Krytponite bullets. Last two happened in Batman/Superman run.

Your ignoring the fact superman was resisting poison Ivy's mind control and was doing everything he could to not win; and the fact batman stated supes could kill him effortlessly with speed. The metallo thing is a low showing. Regardless even if we look at it as legit.....If supes was so weakened by kyrptonite that he can't even bullet time than Ras stabbing supes isn't impressive.

Trying to not win? Not true. Clark was trying not to kill Batman. He was all in for defeating Bruce. Heck, he even lifted a car and was going to throw it on Bruce when Selina showed up.

@rbt: What Jash said ^^^ @jashro44: I think he's knocked out Kang with a shield throw as well. Hot Damn Ras is gonna get sent into orbit with one shield hit.

Superman was fighting against Poison Ivy's mind-control at the same time against Bruce.

@rbt: Batman said he was holding as much as he could:

Towards the end of the fight when superman picked up the truck I am pretty sure superman was losing control at that point. Through out most of the fight Clark wasn't giving it his all. Hence why batman also said if Clark wanted he could kill him before he react:

Green Kyrptonite is not enough on its own to justify fighting superman. Batman in hush had more then Kryptonite on his side.....There is no way Ras could be a threat to superman without prep. With prep sure since he's taken superman out with red kryptonite IIRC in tower of Babel.

@jashro44:

Holding back enough not to kill Bruce. A good freeze breath from Clar would freeze every cell in Bruce's body.

Here-

@rbt: I have the fight. Just because Clarks reflexes are slowed down doesn't mean he wasn't doing everything he could to let Bruce win. If clark wanted to win he could just use an area of effect attack with heat vision. Batman isn't a radius which superman used to defeat an entire army of doomsdays clones. And supermans heat vision can be fired at a level which is non lethal. Batman would have no chance to counter that in tight quarters.

@rbt: @jashro44: The Hush feat was perfectely written, in my opinion. Superman was fighting for his own will, and alongside of that Batman had kryptonite, but he still admitted that Clark would blow him into pieces.

That's not what I originally made this post for, though. What I made this post for, is to show that green kryptonite hurts Superman, but not to the point where he can't operate. Hell, in the storyline Supergirl From Krypton, Superman wore a kryptonite ring himself, to take out Kara:

Gallery

The scans are from Superman/Batman #12 - The Supergirl from Krypton, Part Five: Traitor. Kryptonite doesn't have as huge effects on Clark as it have been portrayed in live action movies and TV-series. The only reason Superman didn't damage Batman was because of him fighting against Poison Ivy's will. Hell, even in the same issue, Clark tanked getting electrecuted with Metropolis' electricity, the entire city's electricity, that is. Batman shouldn't have lasted a single second in that fight, if it wouldn't have been for Superman's will.

@captain_batman_ftw: I agree. Also worth noting in sacrifice when wonder woman used krpytonite superman still punched her with enough force to send her flying to earth at faster than light speeds:

@jashro44: To be fair, he was by the sun when he punched Diana.

Kryptonite is something Clark has learned to resist over the years, just like characters like Punisher has been trained to tolerate a lot of pain.

I really dislike it when people say that kryptonite has a huge effect on Clark.

Still, I do think that if Superman was being fully mind-controlled, he would have stomped Batman.

Eh, they were there for about a second. Superman doesn't usually get a massive boost that quickly.

Agreed.

@jashro44: I mentioned that he was by the sun because his powers were pretty much neutral at that point. It was basically like this:

-1 and then back to 0. If you understand what I mean. The sun was basically disabling the effects of the kryptonite. Also, I do want to post a feat of Superman getting a massive boost from the sun in just seconds, but people will say that it's BS.

Glad you agreed. :D

Captain America

That I don't agree with. Yes, Clark was holding back. But he was not letting him win. Nothing like that was implied IIRC. Clark was throwing punches and even opened the battle with a heat vision that would've incapacitated Batman if he had not dodged it.

If clark wanted to win he could just use an area of effect attack with heat vision. Batman isn't a radius which superman used to defeat an entire army of doomsdays clones. And supermans heat vision can be fired at a level which is non lethal. Batman would have no chance to counter that in tight quarters.

I don't know how you missed this. Bruce knew Clark could take him down with heat vision, so he planned for it. Here's the scan-

Clark couldn't have used heat vision even if he wanted too. He wqould've blown up the entire block. Or that's what Bruce made him believe.

Ra's, the only way batman stalemates Ra's is due to him having a great amount of skill that by far surpasses cap. Also Ra's has 'superior' strength and endurance from the Lazarus pit. So basically cap is fighting a slightly less skilled but still much more skilled than cap himself, stronger, more durable batman who will kill him. Oh and he's DCs master swordsman. Cap isn't walking out of this intact.

Ra's al Ghul