Captain America vs Miles Morales

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ComicStooge

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#1  Edited By ComicStooge

Combatants:

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VS

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Location:

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Rules:

- Morals on, Cap's OK with punching a child/teenager

- Cap is pre-depowerment

- 616 Cap

- Combatants start 20 metres apart

- WIn via KO, kill, incap or BFR

- Standard gear

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sirfizzwhizz

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#2  Edited By sirfizzwhizz  Online

Miles can win pretty easy with a good Venom Sting or Web Spam. His Spider Sense, Spider Speed, and Durability is enough to hang with Cap in a Morals on fight to deliver one of the two. Miles also lives in a world with a tougher Cap.

Going with Miles.

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comicace3

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Miles can win pretty easy with a good Venom Sting or Web Spam. His Spider Sense, Spider Speed, and Durability is enough to hang with Cap in a Morals on fight to deliver one of the two. Miles also lives in a world with a tougher Cap.

Going with Miles.

Miles may live with a Cap that has slightly better stats but he is still not as skilled as 616 Cap. While I do believe Cap won't kill MIles I'll bet my money on a KO. My main argument will be that he is more skilled and experienced than Miles so he should take it 6/10 times

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Night4345

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#4  Edited By Night4345
@sirfizzwhizz said:

Miles can win pretty easy with a good Venom Sting or Web Spam.

Cap can block a venom sting and dodge web spam.

His Spider Sense, Spider Speed, and Durability is enough to hang with Cap in a Morals on fight to deliver one of the two.

Miles barely ever listens to his spider-sense, Cap has just as good if not better speed feats than Miles, not if Cap goes for a nerve strike.

Miles also lives in a world with a tougher Cap.

And Steve lives in a world with a tougher Spider-Man.

Going with Miles.

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OreoAssassin

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@night4345: I agree with most of your points aside from the webspam. If Miles goes for the webspam (which it might already be too late if Steves landed a few hits), Cap cant dodge forever and eventually get tagged and then a conclusion of Venom Sting

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Night4345

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@night4345: I agree with most of your points aside from the webspam. If Miles goes for the webspam (which it might already be too late if Steves landed a few hits), Cap cant dodge forever and eventually get tagged and then a conclusion of Venom Sting

He doesn't need to dodge forever.

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jashro44

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@night4345: I agree with most of your points aside from the webspam. If Miles goes for the webspam (which it might already be too late if Steves landed a few hits), Cap cant dodge forever and eventually get tagged and then a conclusion of Venom Sting

I don't see Miles just web spamming the whole environment. Plus Steve only needs to dodge long enough to get in close.

Miles also lives in a world with a tougher Cap.

To be fair not only does Steve live in a world with tougher spider-men; but he's fought 2 of them. He lost to agent venom but he's done well against Peter (Albeit due to some factors). But Steve has studied how to fight spiders. Granted Miles has a few extra surprises for Steve but Steve really should have the experience advantage here.

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sirfizzwhizz

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#9 sirfizzwhizz  Online

@jashro44:

I agree Steve has the skill advantage, but that's all he has.

Miles 6 tons (base on the average strength of all UltimTe Spider Men) to Steve's 2 tons.

Miles speed and Caps are even, but Miles still has the advantage of Spider Sense which he has shown to use time from time, it is a factor.

Miles Durability may not mean much to Nerve Strikes, but again ask any real world MA fighter who knows nerve strikes, and just how much harder I is to land them then a normal blow. Even Military police are taught nerve pinches and nerve clusters, I was, and it was nearly impossible to apply it in a fight with so one as fast as yourself.

Cap fight Peter but Peter holds back all the time, and does not have Venom Sting or even Stealth ability of Miles. Miles has used web spam twice though we argued on this before, so even if we left that out, Miles webs can still play a factor.

616 may be more skilled or even experience than Ultimate, but UltimTe Cap is still a more dangerous Cap with better stats, lesser morals, and still stated multiple times to have a computer level brain, genius in all things related to war.

Miles should win IMO.

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mickey-mouse

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Cap, Morals Off Miles would kill him though

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Jacthripper

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Agreed with @lukehero

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jashro44

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#12  Edited By jashro44

@sirfizzwhizz:

I agree Steve has the skill advantage, but that's all he has.

Miles 6 tons (base on the average strength of all UltimTe Spider Men) to Steve's 2 tons.

I disagree skill is all Steve has. As I said he has experience and tactics as well. And when I say experience I don't mean just "he's been a super hero longer" but he's faced more and different challenges than Miles has, which he can apply how he dealt with those challenges here.

Miles speed and Caps are even, but Miles still has the advantage of Spider Sense which he has shown to use time from time, it is a factor.

Well skill kind of balances spider-sense out and Miles spider-sense doesn't have a lot of amazing feats. IIRC his best feat is detecting the missile fired at him by that one war machine right? Besides Steve has studied how Peters spider-sense works. He has developed tactics to get in close to him. Due to Miles lack of experience fighting someone like Steve I think spider-sense can be overcome.

Miles Durability may not mean much to Nerve Strikes, but again ask any real world MA fighter who knows nerve strikes, and just how much harder I is to land them then a normal blow. Even Military police are taught nerve pinches and nerve clusters, I was, and it was nearly impossible to apply it in a fight with so one as fast as yourself.

I agree but Steve has used pressure points on Peter with the use of his tactics in civil war. So its possible he could do the same to Miles.

Cap fight Peter but Peter holds back all the time, and does not have Venom Sting or even Stealth ability of Miles.

True.

Miles has used web spam twice though we argued on this before, so even if we left that out, Miles webs can still play a factor.

Eh, twice out of how many fights? Besides as I said Steve only needs to avoid until he is in close. Once its hand to hand he will press the attack and have Miles avoid web spam. That was his main strategy when fighting Peter.

616 may be more skilled or even experience than Ultimate, but UltimTe Cap is still a more dangerous Cap with better stats, lesser morals, and still stated multiple times to have a computer level brain, genius in all things related to war.

True but MIles never fought ultimate cap. He'll have a general idea what to expect here but Steve has actually developed tactics to fight Spiders as I said. Miles is going to have to decide how to fight Steve as the fight is going on and he is going to have to adapt to everything Steve offers on the fly. Steve only needs to adapt to his camouflage and venom sting but Steve is very adaptable in general according to Kang and black panther.

Miles should win IMO.

I think its debatable :p

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hatemalingsia

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Miles Morales.

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jashro44

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#15  Edited By jashro44

@sirfizzwhizz: Also just to add I don't think cap needs pressure points to hurt miles. Miles can take a lot of damage but repeated shield bashes will be damaging.

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laflux

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@jashro44 said:

@sirfizzwhizz: Also just to add I don't think cap needs pressure points to hurt miles. Miles can take a lot of damage but repeated shield bashes will be damaging.

Or he could just throw it at him. That should hurt plenty :p

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ElderSkaar

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Miles

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jashro44

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@laflux said:

@jashro44 said:

@sirfizzwhizz: Also just to add I don't think cap needs pressure points to hurt miles. Miles can take a lot of damage but repeated shield bashes will be damaging.

Or he could just throw it at him. That should hurt plenty :p

Possibly. Problem with that is caps shield has been caught before. Granted he has also tagged faster than Miles but there are like 20+ examples of the shield getting caught I know will be brought up.

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ComicStooge

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Bump

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ComicStooge

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@nickzambuto: Except Cap has tagged opponents almost as fast, as fast or faster then himself with nerve strikes.

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Urban_Ninja_X

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I'll go with Steve for now.

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Keehn93

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Morals on Cap wins. Morales off Cap wins. He ain't going to lose to a child lol Cap would snap him like a twig if he got ahold of him.

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Eisenfauste

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Cap

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Jestersmiles

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miles

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nickzambuto

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@nickzambuto: Except Cap has tagged opponents almost as fast, as fast or faster then himself with nerve strikes.

Like who?

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SpinnerComix

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Miles pretty easily

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Rubear

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Miles via ambush.

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jashro44

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#29  Edited By jashro44

@nickzambuto said:

@comicstooge said:

@nickzambuto: Except Cap has tagged opponents almost as fast, as fast or faster then himself with nerve strikes.

Like who?

Peter Parker and USAgent.

Just for those wondering Steve is wearing USAgents costume in the captain america 350 scans.

Also in regards to our challenge a viner sorry for not getting my response up when I said I would. Its a combination of me being lazy and busy with school. I'll try to get a response up this week.

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jashro44

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Miles pretty easily

No way does he win easily.

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nickzambuto

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#31  Edited By nickzambuto

@jashro44 said:

@nickzambuto said:

@comicstooge said:

@nickzambuto: Except Cap has tagged opponents almost as fast, as fast or faster then himself with nerve strikes.

Like who?

Peter Parker and USAgent.

Just for those wondering Steve is wearing USAgents costume in the captain america 350 scans.

Also in regards to our challenge a viner sorry for not getting my response up when I said I would. Its a combination of me being lazy and busy with school. I'll try to get a response up this week.

I never thought Cap used a pressure point on Spider-Man in that fight. It isn't stated in the story, there are no real life pressure points located around that area, and you don't punch pressure points anyway. I know Peter said he was numb below the waist, but that's what happens when you get punched in the waist three times within 10 seconds. Also that wasn't a pressure points he used against U.S. Agent either, he just punched his ears which is a very discombobulating technique, but it's not a pressure point. The other scan is legit, but since when is U.S. Agent fast anyway?

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jashro44

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@nickzambuto:

I never thought Cap used a pressure point on Spider-Man in that fight. It isn't stated in the story, there are no real life pressure points located around that area, and you don'tpunch pressure points anyway.

Pressure points can actually be applied by rubbing, punching, poking or squeezing, etc. Plus that was a poke and not a punch. And its kind of hard to tell if Steve hit Peters side or chest IMO in the panel he pokes him, but on the next page Peter is holding his side which IIRC is actually a pressure point.

I know Peter said he was numb below the waist, but that's what happens when you get punched in the waist three times within 10 seconds.

I would find it hard to believe Steve numbed Peter in the iron spider-suit by poking him. The suit under the same writer was taking hits from titanium man who is an iron man villain. IIRC he is class 90 according to hand books and Peter didn't seem to be too bothered:

"Yes I did want to make an impression but still ow." Peter seems to be joking after he was slammed into the wall with enough force to crater the wall....Peter was still conscious after being slammed through a building by titanium man as well.

I highly doubt Steve can do more damage with a poke. Plus the way Peter was talking about Steve he kept on saying Caps hand to hand skill was why he was having so much trouble. I think it makes sense.

Also that wasn't a pressure points he used against U.S. Agent either, he just punched his ears which is a very discombobulating technique, but it's not a pressure point.

I believe punching the ears does count as a pressure point. Either way its still a vital point which is very damaging. It is basically the same thing and I don't think there is a big difference. I've found a few sites which list it as a pressure point, albeit not all sites do though:

Regardless I think this is just schematics. Its a vital point and the general idea is still the same.

The other scan is legit, but since when is U.S. Agent fast anyway?

Since always.

This panel in particular is impressive. And for those who haven't read the issue this is also captain america 350, and this is indeed John Walker.
This panel in particular is impressive. And for those who haven't read the issue this is also captain america 350, and this is indeed John Walker.

I think he is at least as fast as Miles, plus John Walker has been trained by taskmaster. He's not the fastest street leveller there is or anything but he is fast and decently skilled. For the record I agree pressure points aren't the most effective way of fighting, but the thing is I question if Miles has the skill to defend from caps skill. Miles best hope is to try to take advantage of his camouflage. Not sure if it would be that easy against Steve.

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deactivated-5e291995a18d6

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Battle Forums Debating = Logical Debating

This is Battle Forum 101 people.


I honestly have no idea what you mean by that...

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sirfizzwhizz

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#36 sirfizzwhizz  Online

@sirfizzwhizz said:

Battle Forums Debating = Logical Debating

This is Battle Forum 101 people.

I honestly have no idea what you mean by that...

Means using Logic is how you argue feats and confirm PIS/WIS/CIS from legit feats.

People saying Comics=/=reality are just either trolling the Battle Forums becuase they have no sensible "debate" to put up or simply dont belong here since they refuse to discuss feats.

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deactivated-5e291995a18d6

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@sirfizzwhizz: It's actually the other way around. People who say something in a comic shouldn't work because it does't work in real life (which is what I responded to) are trolling the battle forums. We should be looking for logic and consistency within the comics, not for real world logic. In comic books, nerve strikes are a common and effective attack for martial artists, as evidenced by multiple feats. We can't say, "they don't use them in MMA or the army in real life, so why should they work in comics" That's what I call ignoring feats.

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nickzambuto

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@jashro44: Well the panel with Cap attacking Spider-Man isn't the most clear, you say it looks like finger jabs but to me it's a closed fist, but I can also see how it can look like Steve's fingers are extended. We can't really prove it was a pressure point strike since it isn't clear what Steve is doing, obviously the artist didn't really think that deeply about it when he drew the scene so he didn't figure such detail was necessary. The only evidence pointing to that possibly being a pressure point strike are Cap's fingers and Peter's comment that he was numb, and if it was more clearly a finger jab then I would admit it's most likely a pressure point strike, but since it really isn't clear, I just don't think there's enough evidence to assume Captain America hit Spider-Man in a pressure point when it isn't stated or made clear at all.

Here's my line of thinking: if it takes detective work and debating to decide if something happened in a story, then it's likely not what the writer had in mind because then he would have made it more clear.

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sirfizzwhizz

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#39  Edited By sirfizzwhizz  Online

@thebourneposter said:

@sirfizzwhizz: It's actually the other way around. People who say something in a comic shouldn't work because it does't work in real life (which is what I responded to) are trolling the battle forums. We should be looking for logic and consistency within the comics, not for real world logic. In comic books, nerve strikes are a common and effective attack for martial artists, as evidenced by multiple feats. We can't say, "they don't use them in MMA or the army in real life, so why should they work in comics" That's what I call ignoring feats.

Ha, your the one in the wrong though. We were arguing if Spider Man was being pressure pointed or not. Unless stated, there is no evidence he was at all, just assumption to begin wit >_> seriously.

Like I said, people have no business in the Battle Forums if they wish to slap words around like Comics=/=Reality to argue points they have no standing to begin with on. In fact I am waiting for anything remotely productive from you in this thread.

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deactivated-5e291995a18d6

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@sirfizzwhizz: You said pressure points would not work in comics, because they are not effective in real life for MMA fighters and police. A ridiculous statement. Captain America can use pressure points effectively in combat, and has. I'd say Captain Americas history of feats using nerve strikes, outweighs your idea "they don't work in real life so they don't work in comics"

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jashro44

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@jashro44: Well the panel with Cap attacking Spider-Man isn't the most clear, you say it looks like finger jabs but to me it's a closed fist, but I can also see how it can look like Steve's fingers are extended. We can't really prove it was a pressure point strike since it isn't clear what Steve is doing, obviously the artist didn't really think that deeply about it when he drew the scene so he didn't figure such detail was necessary. The only evidence pointing to that possibly being a pressure point strike are Cap's fingers and Peter's comment that he was numb, and if it was more clearly a finger jab then I would admit it's most likely a pressure point strike, but since it really isn't clear, I just don't think there's enough evidence to assume Captain America hit Spider-Man in a pressure point when it isn't stated or made clear at all.

Here's my line of thinking: if it takes detective work and debating to decide if something happened in a story, then it's likely not what the writer had in mind because then he would have made it more clear.

Eh, I disagree. A lot of people thought black panther had silver surfer in an arm bar until the writer clarified Surfer allowed it.

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I think that even though this is quite a tough fight, Miles Takes it. Even though Cap has more acknowledged experience, Miles could utilize his venom strike on caps shield. If he and cap touch the shield, it can be conducted to cap. He could also just throw multiple steel beams on cap, Knowing he would move, and then hit him while hes stunned. Im not downplaying steve, but miles takes it due to more versatility and powers.

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#43  Edited By mickey-mouse

@nickzambuto:

Here's my line of thinking: if it takes detective work and debating to decide if something happened in a story, then it's likely not what the writer had in mind because then he would have made it more clear.

Only the writer and the artist often have opposing views & the opinion of the writer often is in conflict with the actual panel feats. Cough Cough*** Justin Jordan, Cough*** Luther Strode Fiasco....Cough*** Tweets...

Some writers and more to the point artists are aloof.

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sirfizzwhizz

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#44 sirfizzwhizz  Online

@sirfizzwhizz: You said pressure points would not work in comics, because they are not effective in real life for MMA fighters and police. A ridiculous statement. Captain America can use pressure points effectively in combat, and has. I'd say Captain Americas history of feats using nerve strikes, outweighs your idea "they don't work in real life so they don't work in comics"

Re read my statement, I said they work and can be used, just not as easy to pull off. Then @nickzambuto agreed which you pulled the whole Comics=/=reality. You can absolutley apply it Reality here becuase Steve RARELY ever shows stated Nerve Strikes of any kind. The argument that started this was Steve using Pressure points to win. While he can, he rarely does, and the fact is it is hard to pull off on foes your level of speed if they are actively dodging, much less the Spider Sense factor :/

@lukehero said:

@nickzambuto:

Here's my line of thinking: if it takes detective work and debating to decide if something happened in a story, then it's likely not what the writer had in mind because then he would have made it more clear.

Only the writer and the artist often have opposing views & the opinion of the writer often is in conflict with the actual panel feats. Cough Cough*** Justin Jordan, Cough*** Luther Strode Fiasco....Cough*** Tweets...

Some writers and more to the point artists are aloof.

Cough cough, Jordan states Luther cannot lift a car, cough cough, but then states right after he is twice as strong as the strongest olympic athlete, cough cough, the strongest olypic athlete can dead lift 1,100 pounds, cough cough, double that equals over a ton, cough cough, meaning Luther can dead lift most cars over his head LMAO cough cough hack hack cough......

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jashro44

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#46  Edited By jashro44

@sirfizzwhizz: Well all though I think Steve can pressure point Miles for reasons stated; I don't think thats his only way to win. I agree with the point there not easy to pull off and people do overrate them, but Steve is at least as fast by feats, way way way more skilled in martial arts, and all though Miles has spider-sense I don't think he has enough showings with it to say he uses it as a way to compensate for his lack of skill. Plus Steve has shown he has studied Peter and developed tactics to work around spider-sense.

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sirfizzwhizz

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#47 sirfizzwhizz  Online

@jashro44 said:

@sirfizzwhizz: Well all though I think Steve can pressure point Miles for reasons stated; I don't think thats his only way to win. I agree with the point there not easy to pull off and people do overrate them, but Steve is at least as fast by feats, way way way more skilled in martial arts, and all though Miles has spider-sense I don't think he has enough showings with it to say he uses it as a way to compensate for his lack of skill. Plus Steve has shown he has studied Peter and developed tactics to work around spider-sense.

Fair enough, but how many times has Steve used Pressure Points? Beast from X-Men showed Pressure Points in fights twice, but most debaters will not argue him doing that in most fights. So what about Steve and what consistency he has using Pressure Points?

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jashro44

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@jashro44 said:

@sirfizzwhizz: Well all though I think Steve can pressure point Miles for reasons stated; I don't think thats his only way to win. I agree with the point there not easy to pull off and people do overrate them, but Steve is at least as fast by feats, way way way more skilled in martial arts, and all though Miles has spider-sense I don't think he has enough showings with it to say he uses it as a way to compensate for his lack of skill. Plus Steve has shown he has studied Peter and developed tactics to work around spider-sense.

Fair enough, but how many times has Steve used Pressure Points? Beast from X-Men showed Pressure Points in fights twice, but most debaters will not argue him doing that in most fights. So what about Steve and what consistency he has using Pressure Points?

I believe there are examples of Steve using pressure points in this thread:

http://www.comicvine.com/captain-america/4005-1442/forums/captain-america-the-living-legend-respect-thread-1511991/

I don't have time to look at the moment.

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Since people said Miles beats Bane in my thread with limitations even Miles should stomp efortlessly here... But from my knowledge he is only 5 ton at best, also he is an inexperienced kid.

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Since people said Miles beats Bane in my thread with limitations even Miles should stomp efortlessly here... But from my knowledge he is only 5 ton at best, also he is an inexperienced kid.

Fighting Bane isn't the same as fighting Cap.