@Jake Fury: I would assume that current Herc is about peak human condition and Thor has stated that Herc is a better H2H fighter than himself. So is Thor a better H2H fighter than Cap? If so Herc may take this.
"@Jake Fury: I would assume that current Herc is about peak human condition and Thor has stated that Herc is a better H2H fighter than himself. So is Thor a better H2H fighter than Cap? If so Herc may take this. "
That'd be an interesting debate (Thor/Cap fighting skills). I'm not really sure about Herc's current physical levels on a superhuman scale.
@comicdude23: Herc has been trained by the GODS for thousands of years in H2H, not to mention his own experence in battle. Where are you getting that cap is better H2H?
"@comicdude23: Herc has been trained by the GODS for thousands of years in H2H, not to mention his own experence in battle. Where are you getting that cap is better H2H? Please explain. "
So?
Thor has been trained for thousands of years but it doesn't make him a better fighter than Lady Shiva
Steve is a better fighter, but not by much. He's proven to be an excellent fighter
"@comicdude23: Herc has been trained by the GODS for thousands of years in H2H, not to mention his own experence in battle. Where are you getting that cap is better H2H? Please explain. "
So? Thor has been trained for thousands of years but it doesn't make him a better fighter than Lady Shiva Steve is a better fighter, but not by much. He's proven to be an excellent fighter Herc usually just gets into slugfests with Thor "
"@comicdude23: Herc has been trained by the GODS for thousands of years in H2H, not to mention his own experence in battle. Where are you getting that cap is better H2H? Please explain. "
So? Thor has been trained for thousands of years but it doesn't make him a better fighter than Lady Shiva Steve is a better fighter, but not by much. He's proven to be an excellent fighter Herc usually just gets into slugfests with Thor "
Herc would just grapple him down to the groud with his mastered greco-roman wrestling skills, apply the sleeper and fight over. If Cap manages to keep it on the feet for a few minutes Herc would wear him down with some Jabbs and leg/body kicks.
Herc would just grapple him down to the groud with his mastered greco-roman wrestling skills, apply the sleeper and fight over. If Cap manages to keep it on the feet for a few minutes Herc would wear him down with some Jabbs and leg/body kicks.
"
Um. No.
Steve is a master Martial Artist, and easily has enough Speed to move around Herc
"Until current Herc actually appears in a battle no one has any viable information to make assumptions about his durability. "
"
I totally agree with this, Herc is a legendary wrestler and should be able to go toe to toe with Cap and maybe get an edge. But this is going of assumption as we don't know how Marvel are going to play this yet. So until we do we have no comparable feats to use in this battle.
Herc and Thor are use to fighting with super powers for a long time. They don't seem to be able to do agile like feats, which play a big part in H2H. Bucky and Steve both mix in their agility with their fighting, and fighting in such an unorthodox fashion is hard to adjust to.
Herc and Thor going H2H are use to grappling and boxing, but are they use to someone that can flip over you?
Plus, if Herc is just peak of man, Bucky has defeated the Grand Director (A 2 tonner) who is experienced in combat and about 6 times stronger than him (He's twice as strong as Steve who is about 3 times as strong as Bucky).
@SlimJ87D: Flips and gymnastics are for the Olympics, comics and gullibles. In real combat, those trying to look all fancy with acrobatics end up KO'd in a heartbeat. Ever see an MMA fighter dance all about the octagon? No. They save their backflips for AFTER they've won the fight. But hey, we are talking comics so why not? However, if writers would pause, take deep breaths, and stop jobbing Hercules for half a heartbeat he'd pound the crap outta Captain America. Can't believe you can say 'so what' to thousands of years of combat - more than this, Champions of said combat. More than this GODS of battle... heroes among the Gods really... I mean SHEESH. BIG Wolverine fan here for those that know me, and if it were hand to hand, Hercules would school Logan as well. Depowered or no (by hand to hand I mean Wolverine doesn't gut the man - no claws, just skill. Couldn't hurt Logan, couldn't KO him, but could school him in some hand to hand).
Great match-up BTW. Very interesting debate to be had here. I go with Herc though.
"Until current Herc actually appears in a battle no one has any viable information to make assumptions about his durability. "
"
I totally agree with this, Herc is a legendary wrestler and should be able to go toe to toe with Cap and maybe get an edge. But this is going of assumption as we don't know how Marvel are going to play this yet. So until we do we have no comparable feats to use in this battle. "
"Until current Herc actually appears in a battle no one has any viable information to make assumptions about his durability. "
"
I totally agree with this, Herc is a legendary wrestler and should be able to go toe to toe with Cap and maybe get an edge. But this is going of assumption as we don't know how Marvel are going to play this yet. So until we do we have no comparable feats to use in this battle. "
I have not been a die hard Herc fan over the years but i have been following him recently. Has he ever been de-powered like Thor has been over the years? I know it has been shown that Thor is still a beast in hand - to - hand without powers, I was going more off depowered Thor feats, Herc would be right up there with his skill set, I would immagine better.
We will see more of depowered Hercules fighting the thugs in Brooklyn this April, lol. should be interesting
"@SlimJ87D: Flips and gymnastics are for the Olympics, comics and gullibles. In real combat, those trying to look all fancy with acrobatics end up KO'd in a heartbeat. Ever see an MMA fighter dance all about the octagon? No. They save their backflips for AFTER they've won the fight. But hey, we are talking comics so why not? However, if writers would pause, take deep breaths, and stop jobbing Hercules for half a heartbeat he'd pound the crap outta Captain America. Can't believe you can say 'so what' to thousands of years of combat - more than this, Champions of said combat. More than this GODS of battle... heroes among the Gods really... I mean SHEESH. BIG Wolverine fan here for those that know me, and if it were hand to hand, Hercules would school Logan as well. Depowered or no (by hand to hand I mean Wolverine doesn't gut the man - no claws, just skill. Couldn't hurt Logan, couldn't KO him, but could school him in some hand to hand). Great match-up BTW. Very interesting debate to be had here. I go with Herc though. "
This isn't "the octagon" agility matters in comics , that's why Spiderman fights Rhino and doesn't die , That's why Deadpool fought Juggernaut and didn't die , real life MMA cannot be used as the importance of agility in comics.
Also Cap too has over a thousand years of experience so its not as if we're saying "so what" as Cap also has over a thousand years of experience.
We have never seen Herc. fight without his Super strength , we can't say he's in Logan and Cap's league when it comes to skill as most of the people he fights aren't as strong as him and when we do see him fight people in his leage e.g. Hulk , Thor etc. he doesn't showcase a great deal of martial arts finesse.
I'm going with Cap but we will have to wait for the next issues as Jake Fury said until we can see better how Herc. will deal with his new self .
@CaptainRodgers: His people are gods. It's safe to say he's used to fighting oponents in and or around his strength league. And I don't care how strong you are, if you don't know how to fight, and the other person does, odds are against you winning. Though you're right, superhumans with agility and the ability to jump 30 feet in the air are a far cry from the octagon. However, Captain America, at his strength and speed levels, is a far, far cry from Spiderman in this regard. If he tries to be Mr. Gymnastics against Mr. MMA, with the same to similar physical attributes, then Mr. MMA will own him. A real fighter forgoes the fancy for the effective. However, even Spiderman uses said acrobatics to principally avoid, hit and run, dodge weave and whatnot... eventually, you have to come down to go hand to hand... (effective for Spidey only due to the fact he is superhuman in EVERY respect, whereas our good Captain is an enhanced human. Much different.)
" @comicdude23: Herc has been trained by the GODS for thousands of years in H2H, not to mention his own experence in battle. Where are you getting that cap is better H2H? Please explain. "
Maybe because we are counting cap's own showings and we are not speculating Herc's skills because of his experience. Also, i have seen more impressive skill showings from cap. Also if we are going to assume that Herc is more skilled, then how effective are his skills in combat? I have seen cap using nerve strikes and pressure points to cause great pain or incapacitate his opponents. I have seen cap using his skills to overcome his opponent's superior strength when he graped him. I have also see him holding his own or beating fighters that they have some actual skill feats and we don't just use their experience to count their skill level. We are actually counting their own showings. =]
Herc has greater Experience but it is experience with Power not Without. It's like a man that is a trained martial artist for 15 years and a Black belt becomes a Cop. He has a gun no and in any confrontation he uses it but still trains in techniques every so often. Now he fights some guy that has been training for three years practices techniques 5 days a week and has several in ring fights and many more street fights. The Cop has been through more violent situations and has more training as a martial artist. The reality is he has used a gun, tazer, cuffs, police baton, mace, etc..... for the past 15 yrs and has not actually applied his full on skill. Yes he may have fought other people with guns but once again they both were armed.
The gun concept applies to most heroes with great Power. The greater the Power the more it generally applies. Herc is skilled but he knows what it's like to take a mountain shattering punch, not a 1,200 lbs psi jab that actually can K.O him, which before could not even phase him.
Cap. Wins. Steve or Bucky. Steve being much easier while Bucky having to fight for it.
That's why Deadpool fought Juggernaut and didn't die ,
If i recall correctly, deadpool just spent that whole fight running away. It was less of a fight and more of a "oh god,please don't kill me" kinda thing.
That's why Deadpool fought Juggernaut and didn't die ,
If i recall correctly, deadpool just spent that whole fight running away. It was less of a fight and more of a "oh god,please don't kill me" kinda thing. "
You recall nearly correct yes , but you're missing the point , i'm not saying Deadpool won that i'm saying he survived it , through as you said "running away" he dodged his hits and jumped around and stuff , using his agility were it not for his agility he would be dead , what i'm trying to say is , you're wrong about agility not being important as character's constantly use it to fight opponents who are far stronger than them .
"Yeah Steve or Bucky win The fact is Steve is phyiscally superior to Herc and has combat feats Ans Bucky's Cybernetic arm will help him KO Herc "
That argument does not make any sense. There is no "Fact" that shows Steve to be "physically superior" to Herc in any way, in addition Herc has many combat feats that far surpass Cap's. The "Fact" is right now none of us have any idea how strong and skilled current Herc actually is at a depowered state.
Thor has been depowered a few times and nothing suggests that Captain America was his superior in H2H in any way when he was depowered, Herc is a more skilled hand- to - hand combatant than Thor is.
"Yeah Steve or Bucky win The fact is Steve is phyiscally superior to Herc and has combat feats Ans Bucky's Cybernetic arm will help him KO Herc "
That argument does not make any sense. There is no "Fact" that shows Steve to be "physically superior" to Herc in any way, in addition Herc has many combat feats that far surpass Cap's. The "Fact" is right now none of us have any idea how strong and skilled current Herc actually is at a depowered state.
Thor has been depowered a few times and nothing suggests that Captain America was his superior in H2H in any way when he was depowered, Herc is a more skilled hand- to - hand combatant than Thor is.
"
What does Thor have to do with this thread?
and no
Steve is a better fighter than Herc, he's learnt Martial Arts and has proved to be one of Marvels best fighters
Bucky has a Cybernetic arm that has destroyed Robots and bent the metal of Guns
@comicdude23: yh i agree cap wins what has herc done to show he has h2h skills on caps level and with herc depowered, cap is probably just as strong if not stronger
Every 'Hero' has their niche. It's too hard to convince that Hercules can compete with Captain America's (hand to hand) as Herc was known principally as the musclebound demigod of earth shattering proportions for so long, that people have disassociated with the fact he is the Big Daddy of hand to hand.
Gymnastics, flipping to and fro, while visually impressive in comics is truly 'meh' in the world of hand to hand combat.
And I agree with other posters, don't truly know what 'depowered' means for a God. Herc's strength and durability levels are still an unknown factor. I'd go with enhanced human minimum ...but still...
"Probably/Maybe" None of what the two of you are saying has been proven in any way in regards to Herc vs. Captain. there is nothing showing that Cap is a better fighter or that he has better skills. How can you say for sure that Captain is in better shape and has better fighting skills than someone else who we have not seen in action yet?? Everything you two have said is pure speculation at best.
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