#1 Edited by Vouile (678 posts) - - Show Bio

Situation and conditions

Captain America, Gambit, Cyclops and Hawkeye converse one day and they each debate on who's a better fighter. Cyclops claims that he, Gambit and Hawkeye can beat Captain America in a hand to hand combat fight. Captain America challenges them as the soldier he is and they deal it out in the testing room. This is at the training room where everyone is equipped with dojo clothing and no one can use their superpowers. Everyone will then fight.

Rules

  • No preparation.
  • All opponents are "morals on" but still are going at their best.
  • Fight to K.O until the other team is unconscious or close-to-death if it must get ugly.
  • Regular Cyclops without the Phoenix Force.

Round 2

Rorscharch and Green Arrow to team 2 are added with the same rules. This round will be a fight to the death.

FIGHT! :D

Vouile

#2 Edited by God_Spawn (37140 posts) - - Show Bio

Cap. None of them are h2h threats to him. Cyclops is hardly better than Storm, Gambit's best skill feats are with his staff and Cap walked through him when he was disarmed and he trained Barton in all he knows of combat and Barton doesn't have much to show for it anyway. All 3 together might put up a bit of a fight but between his stat edge and skill being considerably higher, he wins every time.

Moderator
#3 Posted by Vouile (678 posts) - - Show Bio

@god_spawn said:

Cap. None of them are h2h threats to him. Cyclops is hardly better than Storm, Gambit's best skill feats are with his staff and Cap walked through him when he was disarmed and he trained Barton in all he knows of combat and Barton doesn't have much to show for it anyway. All 3 together might put up a bit of a fight but between his stat edge and skill being considerably higher, he wins every time.

Alright, then I won't give Gambit a wait. I'll change it up.

Vouile

#4 Posted by God_Spawn (37140 posts) - - Show Bio

@Vouile: So all are on even levels?

Moderator
#5 Edited by Vouile (678 posts) - - Show Bio

@god_spawn said:

@Vouile: So all are on even levels?

Yes, although each one is still on the same physical status if that's what you're asking.

Vouile

#6 Posted by God_Spawn (37140 posts) - - Show Bio

@Vouile: Cap still. He knows all of Barton's moves and Cyclops and Gambit are mediocre at best. They aren't up to par regardless.

Moderator
#7 Posted by Strafe Prower (11887 posts) - - Show Bio

I think the team could pull out a win or 2.

#8 Posted by Super_SoldierXII (6128 posts) - - Show Bio

@god_spawn said:

Cap. None of them are h2h threats to him. Cyclops is hardly better than Storm, Gambit's best skill feats are with his staff and Cap walked through him when he was disarmed and he trained Barton in all he knows of combat and Barton doesn't have much to show for it anyway. All 3 together might put up a bit of a fight but between his stat edge and skill being considerably higher, he wins every time.

This.

#9 Posted by Floopay (8562 posts) - - Show Bio

Without his shield? I don't think Captain could take all three at once. One on one, and maybe even two on one, but not all three. Cyclops took on like seven guys blindfolded.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

#10 Posted by God_Spawn (37140 posts) - - Show Bio

@Floopay: Seven random street thugs blind folded is nothing compared to Cap.

Moderator
#11 Posted by Super_SoldierXII (6128 posts) - - Show Bio

@god_spawn said:

@Floopay: Seven random street thugs blind folded is nothing compared to Cap.

Hasn't even Aunt May taken out a few street thugs in her day?

#12 Posted by God_Spawn (37140 posts) - - Show Bio

@Super_SoldierXII: Aunt May once made Wolverine use the litter box with rolled up newspaper. No one beats her.

Moderator
#13 Posted by Floopay (8562 posts) - - Show Bio

@god_spawn said:

@Floopay: Seven random street thugs blind folded is nothing compared to Cap.

@Super_SoldierXII said:

@god_spawn said:

@Floopay: Seven random street thugs blind folded is nothing compared to Cap.

Hasn't even Aunt May taken out a few street thugs in her day?

Yes she has. But seriously though, Cyclops has the best spacial awareness of any other comic character, and he's more than proficient in the danger room. I think he's even taken out Nightcrawler in hand to hand only, and I think he's even held his own against Wolvie before.

I'm just saying, Cyclops has some pretty decent hand to hand feats, granted his power feats are tenfold better, but his hand to hand is pretty good. Barton isn't to be underestimated either, I mean the guy has senses that border on super human, and almost a spidey sense for danger. Finally we add in Gambit, who might not be the most impressive hand to hand character without his staff and powers, but is still a pretty good fighter.

This comes down to numbers and the fact that Captain is going against 3 people who know how to work as a team very well.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

#14 Posted by Super_SoldierXII (6128 posts) - - Show Bio

@Floopay:

Scott was written as a Judo master in the 70's and 80's. He threw Wolverine around in very early X-titles (getting inside his head) but this was before Wolverine was considered and / or written as having studied various martial arts.

No one's saying Scott or Barton are bad fighters ... they're just not on Cap's level hand to hand. They, like Gambit, are a tier or two below. Add to that the fact Steve's significantly superior physically, and I don't think it's stretching it to say he'd take a majority here.

And your use of 'spacial awareness' here has me believing we just finished a debate you and I (your ALT?) in the Cap versus Slade thread :P

#15 Posted by Vouile (678 posts) - - Show Bio

@god_spawn:

@Strafe Prower:

@Super_SoldierXII:

Fine, I'll add Rorscharch and Green Arrow. They appear at the start of the battle to assist team 2. Hand to hand only prevails.

Vouile

#16 Posted by God_Spawn (37140 posts) - - Show Bio

@Floopay: Cyclops dodged Wolverine and flipped him before when he was in a rut. Cyclops also knows Wolverine quite well to where he can fight against him coupled with his powers. Aside from that Cyclops IS NOT in his league. Fighting 7 people blind folded and disarming a gunman is fine and dandy but that is nothing compared to Cap. Cap has plowed his way through armies, Daredevil has fought against 100 enhanced Yakuza thugs and Wolverine has dared to face 52,000 trained killers. Cap has done what Cyclops did but to far more extremes and has held his own against far more dangerous fighters than all 3 put together.

Gambit is sufficient in savate, that is it and like I said earlier, is only good when he has his staff. Cyclops has a black belt in Judo and Aikido, that is it. Hawkeye was trained by Cap and has hardly any noticeable feats that put him on Cap's level. Hell, Bucky has embarrassed Clint twice. In one fight, Clint couldn't even get a hit on Bucky. And Bucky is Steve's inferior in skill

All 3 together are not on his level. I know all of Cykes' h2h feats and most of Remy's and enough of Barton's to where I can compare him to someone like Cap, Daredevil, or Black Panther. None of those guys even make the top 20 in Marvel while Cap is easily one of the best. Teamwork has nothing to do with it when he is a far superior fighter. When Steve didn't even have serum he defeated 3 enhanced Super Soldiers so even when frail and weak, he can defeat people far more enhanced based on skill alone.

These 3 won't win the majority.

Moderator
#17 Posted by Super_SoldierXII (6128 posts) - - Show Bio

@god_spawn said:

@Super_SoldierXII: Aunt May once made Wolverine use the litter box with rolled up newspaper. No one beats her.

Lol.

#18 Posted by Floopay (8562 posts) - - Show Bio

@Super_SoldierXII:

I actually don't have any alternate accounts. I don't really want/need one. I made a heavy debate using Cyclop's spacial awareness in a bounty hunter wars tournament I believe. It's one of the key parts of his origins. They have never stated this, but I actually believe Cyclops is autistic. He was hit in the head at an early age and lost control of his powers (hence why he has to wear the visor), but is a prodigy child when it comes to basic geometry and spacial awareness. It comes up all the time in the comics with him bouncing his attacks off of every surface to disarm multiple people, or hit things that aren't actually in his line of attack.

Either way, I 100% agree they are one or two tiers below Captain America. I don't even kind of argue that point. However, it is still 3 vs. 1, and I don't think he outclasses them by so much that he can pull this off 6/10 times. And I do think he could take on 3 people who are below him in terms of skill, but all 3 of them are pretty much experts at using team work, strategics, and tactics to their advantage, and overwhelming a single opponent via numbers, and that's what's gonna get Captain here. With his armor, and/or his shield, he would take this, no question. But with all of them in a standard Ghi dojo style, I give it to the team.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

#19 Posted by Super_SoldierXII (6128 posts) - - Show Bio

@Vouile said:

@god_spawn:

@Strafe Prower:

@Super_SoldierXII:

Fine, I'll add Rorscharch and Green Arrow. They appear at the start of the battle to assist team 2. Hand to hand only prevails.

Vouile

Not a big fan of late additions like that.

Better to just make a new thread with new rules perhaps.

It risks looking as though, even if such is not actually the case, your goal is to keep piling on Cap till he loses

#20 Posted by God_Spawn (37140 posts) - - Show Bio

@Vouile: Make a new thread then. We have a debate here now.

Moderator
#21 Posted by Vouile (678 posts) - - Show Bio

@Super_SoldierXII said:

your goal is to keep piling on Cap till he loses

Well don't assume about my goals.

All I'm trying to do is to make the battle more fair to keep it interesting, that's all! :D

Vouile

#22 Edited by Super_SoldierXII (6128 posts) - - Show Bio

@Floopay said:

@Super_SoldierXII:

I actually don't have any alternate accounts. I don't really want/need one. I made a heavy debate using Cyclop's spacial awareness in a bounty hunter wars tournament I believe. It's one of the key parts of his origins. They have never stated this, but I actually believe Cyclops is autistic. He was hit in the head at an early age and lost control of his powers (hence why he has to wear the visor), but is a prodigy child when it comes to basic geometry and spacial awareness. It comes up all the time in the comics with him bouncing his attacks off of every surface to disarm multiple people, or hit things that aren't actually in his line of attack.

Either way, I 100% agree they are one or two tiers below Captain America. I don't even kind of argue that point. However, it is still 3 vs. 1, and I don't think he outclasses them by so much that he can pull this off 6/10 times. And I do think he could take on 3 people who are below him in terms of skill, but all 3 of them are pretty much experts at using team work, strategics, and tactics to their advantage, and overwhelming a single opponent via numbers, and that's what's gonna get Captain here. With his armor, and/or his shield, he would take this, no question. But with all of them in a standard Ghi dojo style, I give it to the team.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

Interesting theory. Actually makes sense.

I still respectfully disagree with the rest.

Without all of them using their respective powers, they don't take a majority. As they are essentially going against a man who still has all of his; the serum and his top tier ability. Steve's shield, while a formidable weapon adding significant durability, is not his principle strength. Scott's optics are, Gambits use of kinetic energy is ... Hawkeye's bow and arrows are likewise far more vital to what makes him a viable addition to the Avengers than his stats or hand to hand skill. His mediocre stint as Ronin notwithstanding.

Cap effortlessly took out Starfox and Black Knight at once in a similar training session set-up. Only they had use of their tools and powers.

I think Steve's being slightly underestimated here.

Give Scott his optics, and Steve his shield and we have a debate. Otherwise ...

#23 Posted by Vouile (678 posts) - - Show Bio

To solve the solution, I added a second round.

Vouile

#24 Posted by Vouile (678 posts) - - Show Bio

To solve the solution, I have added a second round.

Vouile

#25 Posted by Floopay (8562 posts) - - Show Bio

@Super_SoldierXII said:

@Floopay said:

@Super_SoldierXII:

I actually don't have any alternate accounts. I don't really want/need one. I made a heavy debate using Cyclop's spacial awareness in a bounty hunter wars tournament I believe. It's one of the key parts of his origins. They have never stated this, but I actually believe Cyclops is autistic. He was hit in the head at an early age and lost control of his powers (hence why he has to wear the visor), but is a prodigy child when it comes to basic geometry and spacial awareness. It comes up all the time in the comics with him bouncing his attacks off of every surface to disarm multiple people, or hit things that aren't actually in his line of attack.

Either way, I 100% agree they are one or two tiers below Captain America. I don't even kind of argue that point. However, it is still 3 vs. 1, and I don't think he outclasses them by so much that he can pull this off 6/10 times. And I do think he could take on 3 people who are below him in terms of skill, but all 3 of them are pretty much experts at using team work, strategics, and tactics to their advantage, and overwhelming a single opponent via numbers, and that's what's gonna get Captain here. With his armor, and/or his shield, he would take this, no question. But with all of them in a standard Ghi dojo style, I give it to the team.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

Interesting theory. Actually makes sense.

I still respectfully disagree with the rest.

Without all of them using their respective powers, they don't take a majority. As they are essentially going against a man who still has all of his; the serum and his top tier ability. Steve's shield, while a formidable weapon adding significant durability, is not his principle strength. Scott's optics are, Gambits use of kinetic energy is ... Hawkeye's bow and arrows are likewise far more vital to what makes him a viable addition to the Avengers than his stats or hand to hand skill. His mediocre stint as Ronin notwithstanding.

Cap effortlessly took out Starfox and Black Knight at once in a similar training session set-up. Only they had use of their tools and powers.

I think Steve's being slightly underestimated here.

Give Scott his optics, and Steve his shield and we have a debate. Otherwise ...

I definitely see your point. At this point I'm thinking this may go 50/50 more than anything. Again, we might just have to agree to disagree, but it has been a pleasure discussing this. I think if Cap had his shield and Cyclops had his optics, I would give it to the team for sure though. Cyclops could bounce that beam and hit Cap in the back, or bounce it right between his legs and hit him in the........stomach :P

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

#26 Posted by Strafe Prower (11887 posts) - - Show Bio

@Vouile: This match is balanced enough. Don't let them fool you ;)

#27 Posted by YourNeighborhoodComicGeek (19883 posts) - - Show Bio

Captain America should win, but it'd be tough.

#28 Posted by Super_SoldierXII (6128 posts) - - Show Bio

@Floopay:

I was thinking one on one.

If Scott had his optics in this scenario, then the team takes a majority here. Thanks for the debate!

#29 Posted by Floopay (8562 posts) - - Show Bio

@Super_SoldierXII:

Always a pleasure!

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

#30 Posted by God_Spawn (37140 posts) - - Show Bio

@Strafe Prower said:

@Vouile: This match is balanced enough. Don't let them fool you ;)

You shush, Mr. 1 or 2 wins >=/.

I could see them getting a win or two ,though just they fall short for majority despite being solid combatants just not Cap tier, even together.

Moderator
#31 Posted by Vouile (678 posts) - - Show Bio

@Strafe Prower said:

This match is balanced enough. Don't let them fool you ;)

Lol', thank you.

Vouile

#32 Posted by Strafe Prower (11887 posts) - - Show Bio

@god_spawn: I don't think that they are so far behind that he could take all 3 at the same time. That is a hard feat to pull off, even for Cap.

Add that to the fact that Hawkeye knows his fighting styles and tendencies

Cap doesn't have his shield either, which is going to make it hard to defend against acrobats like Gambit and Hawkeye.

#33 Posted by God_Spawn (37140 posts) - - Show Bio

@Strafe Prower: I think he can. Maybe not every time like I originally said but for a solid majority yes. Cap is still significantly stronger than any of them and more agile and faster than Hawkeye and Cyclops. While Hawkeye knows Cap's tendencies it is still a double edged blade cause it works in the opposite direction and Cap probably knows far more than what he taught Clint. Add in Cap does know pressure point strikes which I think can come in handy in a pinch. I don't see these guys having the feats to take him for a majority, regardless of teaming up.

Moderator
#34 Posted by Strafe Prower (11887 posts) - - Show Bio

@god_spawn: I don't think the difference in strength, which isn't by that much, is going to make a difference against 3 opponents of this level. Speed/agility/skill are far more important.

Hawkeye has always shown to be just as agile as Cap, as well as dodging attacks from Steve, Batroc, and others of Cap's level.

Hawkeye has also been on more missions with him than I can count. He knows a lot more than what Cap taught him so long ago.

While he does know pressure point strikes, I haven't seen him use them often enough for him to do this more than once or twice out of 10 matches.

#35 Posted by God_Spawn (37140 posts) - - Show Bio

@Strafe Prower:

Until any one of the three can toss hundreds of pounds of concrete at 2 story buildings or have a bullet in one arm while bleeding out (albeit wrapped up) and shove a steel door inward, it will remain a factor. Cap's agility is higher up than Cykes by a large margin and while Hawkeye is a capable acrobat, he is still slower than Steve. The stat edge is there. The only one really on par with Cap and maybe even slightly above his Gambit but he is probably the worse h2h fighter here.

And Bucky still embarrassed him twice. I'm not doubting their agility but his lack of other stats will be a factor. Just because there are 3 of them here doesn't excuse them from that.

Fair point but it is vice versa, as I stated before. Just because Hawkeye has been said amount of missions with Steve, the fact remains true for Steve against him. Hawkeye is not near his level of combat expertise and does not know all of Cap's tricks while Cap more than likely knows more of Clint than Clint knows of him. Cyclops won't last long in h2h here and the other 2 will eventually fall.

That is still 2 wins under Cap's belt. The team will be lucky if they even get 4 wins IMO. I can live with 2 losses on Cap's end, maybe even 3, but I don't see them taking the majority.

Moderator
#36 Posted by Strafe Prower (11887 posts) - - Show Bio

@god_spawn: While I don't have strength feats for Gambit or Cyclops, Hawkeye has lifted a car off of him with one hand. Hawkeye has evidence of being faster than human on panel in reaction timing and speed.

At least peak level speed here.
Dodging machine gun fire at point blank

As for Gambit's skill, he is not to be underestimated. His fight with Daredevil is an easy indicator that he can hang with this caliber of fighter.

When did Bucky embaress him? I've seen Clint beat Batroc twice when Batroc had help and defeat Captain America while half-blind.

I don't think Cap knows more about Clint than Clint knows about Cap. They both are strategic people that observe their surrounds and peers constantly. I would say it's about equal. I also agree about Cyclops being the first to go down.

I don't know if actually believe the team will get the majority or not, but I figure it's worth debating.

#37 Edited by THUNDERBOLT30 (9875 posts) - - Show Bio

Cap for the win in round 1. Not sure on round 2.

#38 Posted by God_Spawn (37140 posts) - - Show Bio

@Strafe Prower:

I swear when Hawkeye lifted a car up with one hand was when he had spider powers right? Otherwise, he shouldn't be doing that IMO. I don't think he has consistently shown strength feats equal to that of Daredevil. (whom has flipped cars but needed both hands) and Gambit and Cyclops don't have strength feats lol.

As far as Cap's agility, he's been shown to turn mid-air fast enough to block gun fire while in mid-air falling already and the whole sees faster than bullets so he can dodge them.

Aside from that I've seen Cap ricochet off of a bunch of trees, dodge through groups of soldiers shooting at him with machine guns so it wasn't just a single target like Clint and prepare to block a blast from Cyclops point blank. It was a blocking feat sure, but he was a few feet away and had his shield on his back and all Cykes had to do was clench his fists to fire showing his reflex speed on getting his shield off his back and putting it in front of him. And he was shown dodging Gambit's explosions

Bucky vs Clint (sort of). The first fight had Bucky grabbing Barton's arrows out of mid air and then tripping him. The second, Barton couldn't even land a hit on James.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y27/JohnDV201/Bucky%20Barnes/Bucky%20Barnes%20Fighting%20Ability/Clint%20Barton/CaptainAmerica600DTs-Meganpg031.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y27/JohnDV201/Bucky%20Barnes/Bucky%20Barnes%20Fighting%20Ability/Clint%20Barton/CaptainAmerica600DTs-Meganpg032.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y27/JohnDV201/Bucky%20Barnes/Bucky%20Barnes%20Fighting%20Ability/Clint%20Barton/CaptainAmerica600DTs-Meganpg033.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y27/JohnDV201/Bucky%20Barnes/Bucky%20Barnes%20Fighting%20Ability/Clint%20Barton/img012.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y27/JohnDV201/Bucky%20Barnes/Bucky%20Barnes%20Fighting%20Ability/Clint%20Barton/img013.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y27/JohnDV201/Bucky%20Barnes/Bucky%20Barnes%20Fighting%20Ability/Clint%20Barton/img014.jpg

I've also seen Bucky defeat Batroc and fight him with a bunch of goons and defeat Crossbones on a few occasions. Clint wasn't able to lay a finger on Bucky when he didn't want to fight and Steve is Bucky's superior in every aspect.

I still do think Cap knows more. It isn't about Cap knowing more about Barton, it is Barton not knowing enough of Cap. It is the whole "I may have taught you everything you know but not everything I know" kind of thing. Cap did tell Hawkeye straight up that he would be least known for using a bow and more about his martial arts skill which isn't the case. As far as h2h combat goes, Cap has the higher knowledge on Barton than Barton would know about Cap's tricks. I'm taking anything away Barton may know but there are things he didn't learn from Cap while everything (or majority of) he learned of h2h from Cap himself.

As far as the Gambit scans go, that is something I was referring to earlier. Gambit is awesome at stick fighting. The "fight" with Daredevil was more of a stalemate in use of his powers and staff ability, not his h2h ability which Gambit has very few feats and none noticeable to put him in Cap's category. You take the staff away, Gambit has some Savate to fall back on but he isn't busting out Batroc levels with it. Not from what I have seen or maybe I missed something. But in their AvX fight (despite McNiven not doing his research on Gambit now charging organic matter), once Cap dispatched the staff from Gambit, Remy didn't last long up close. Cap 1 shot him actually.

Moderator
#39 Posted by Strafe Prower (11887 posts) - - Show Bio

I haven't read the issues yet, as they are next in line on my Barton crusade, but he doesn't look any different from normal. I could be wrong though.

Clint has plenty of strength feats, such as trading blows with US Agent who has superhuman strength. His bow as a rookie had 500 pounds of pressure as well, which he does with ease. He isn't cap's equal when it comes to strength, but Captain America is not in a different league from him or Gambit IMO.

As for Cap's agility, he is impressive for sure, though non of that is out of Barton's league when it comes to reaction timing/dodging/speed. He has been able to block arrows as well as catch them out of mid-air. he has kept up with Cap's agility during training and has a background as an acrobat (Was raised in a carnival). Cap is just as agile as Cap is IMO.

As for those fights, they aren't so much fights as sparring sessions, to be honest. By any definition, that does not constitute a win for Bucky on either set of scans. Regardless of what bucky has done, Clint has shown the ability to fight people who have hung with Cap or have been stated to be on his level of skill (Batroc twice, Cap, Mockingbird, US Agent) My point being that Clint is not levels below Cap in H2H and Cap isn't going to be defeating him easily when there are others to help Clint.

Not at all. Since Cap trained Clint, he has lead 2 teams, trained with Mockingbird, had countless battles, and many other events that furthered him in his abilities. If anything, The Clint that Cap trained is long gone and isn't relevant to what Clint is now. I still stand by the fact that they are equally aware of each others abilities, tactics, and tendencies.

I agree that his hand to hand skills aren't as good as his skill with a staff, but he does have some skill. Add that to the fact that he has caught bullets, reflected them at point blank, etc. and he should be able to keep up here for a while.

Captain Ameica one-shotting Gambit is funny, but not a valid showing. I would go to say that most of AvX consists of terribly written fights (Psylocke/Daredevil, Storm/Black Panther, etc.) If we go by AvX, Clint defeated Archangel.

#40 Edited by sync1 (2703 posts) - - Show Bio

The team can pull off a win.

Cyclops and Gambit managed to hold their own against Wolverine (who is physically stronger, durable, and more skilled.) With that said, they can manage to put down Cap with the addition of Hawkeye who can potentially stalemate Cap(not saying he will).

#41 Posted by God_Spawn (37140 posts) - - Show Bio

@Strafe Prower:

There was a time when he had spider powers during the spider island event so I'm just trying to remember if that was it or not. No one really looked different IIRC.

Clint has plenty of strength feats, such as trading blows with US Agent who has superhuman strength. His bow as a rookie had 500 pounds of pressure as well, which he does with ease. He isn't cap's equal when it comes to strength, but Captain America is not in a different league from him or Gambit IMO.

So has Punisher but I wouldn't put him in Cap's tier either and above Clint quite frankly. And I think the only reason Walker did as well against Cap was because of his stats. But I can't recall the fight that well. Gambit has no strength feats to begin with so yes, Cap is a tier above them, he does feats that are enhanced that those guys can't. Even if they are a couple hundred pounds off that is still a lot of weight. Cap's bent trees, bent solid steed doors, broken chains, benched 1100 pounds and repped out. A few hundred pounds as far as street levelers go is another tier IMO. The force of those punches will be different.

As for Cap's agility, he is impressive for sure, though non of that is out of Barton's league when it comes to reaction timing/dodging/speed. He has been able to block arrows as well as catch them out of mid-air. he has kept up with Cap's agility during training and has a background as an acrobat (Was raised in a carnival). Cap is just as agile as Cap is IMO.

I think Cap is still superior. Cap still sees faster than the bullets and while Barton is impressive, I haven't seen him do anything Cap can't do or exceed and while he may seem close, Cap's physical advantage should allow him to do better. Dodging machine gun fire from hoards of enemies vs 1 enemy is much better as a feat IMO. Dodging and turning mid air while falling blocking bullets, better than catching arrows.

As for those fights, they aren't so much fights as sparring sessions, to be honest. By any definition, that does not constitute a win for Bucky on either set of scans. Regardless of what bucky has done, Clint has shown the ability to fight people who have hung with Cap or have been stated to be on his level of skill (Batroc twice, Cap, Mockingbird, US Agent) My point being that Clint is not levels below Cap in H2H and Cap isn't going to be defeating him easily when there are others to help Clint.

I never said Bucky won, I said he embarrassed him twice which is true. I have seen better and consistent feats from Bucky than anything from Barton and the little spat they had in those instances proved those for me. Bucky has beaten Batroc with more people attacking him as well. He took on Crossbones and Sin and soldiers all at once and more than once. Until I see something from Barton (other than Batroc whom only knows Savate and studies Cap's styles as well as others to do well and Mockingbird ) is facing off against Daredevil, Black Panther, Shang-Chi, Deadpool, Wolverine etc in h2h and can actually lay a hand on Bucky then I'll consider him a threat in h2h for Cap. Until then, the margin is there.

Not at all. Since Cap trained Clint, he has lead 2 teams, trained with Mockingbird, had countless battles, and many other events that furthered him in his abilities. If anything, The Clint that Cap trained is long gone and isn't relevant to what Clint is now. I still stand by the fact that they are equally aware of each others abilities, tactics, and tendencies.

Fair enough.

I agree that his hand to hand skills aren't as good as his skill with a staff, but he does have some skill. Add that to the fact that he has caught bullets, reflected them at point blank, etc. and he should be able to keep up here for a while.

I'm not saying Gambit is inept, I've continuously said he has a solid amount of Savate going for that. And he never caught a bullet, it was a grenade shell which is still impressive but significantly slower than a bullet. He has very few h2h feats and nothing notable that I remember. I think Cyclops is actually more skilled than him in h2h from what I can remember from both, Barton being the strongest bet on the team.

Captain Ameica one-shotting Gambit is funny, but not a valid showing. I would go to say that most of AvX consists of terribly written fights (Psylocke/Daredevil, Storm/Black Panther, etc.) If we go by AvX, Clint defeated Archangel.

I think it is. I'm not talking about any other fights and I can call out plenty of faults I found in the fight Gambit and Cap ( I even made a blog correcting McNiven's lack of research on Gambit's powers) and AvX in general but considering Remy is a regular human in durability and given someone of Cap's strength and skill, one shotting him isn't out of question. Especially a head shot like that. Realistically, Cap can one shot any of them here while Steve is actually pretty tough durability wise.

Anyways, good debate Strafe and I consider it a treat debating against you, but I'm tired and need to get to sleep and I have little interest in finishing this debate up. I'll just agree to disagree but I'll give the team another win and won't think of it as easy as I did before so you convinced me that, but I still stand by Cap having a higher skill than any by a margin and the stats to even things out.

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#42 Posted by Dextersinister (5677 posts) - - Show Bio

Cap is losing this, realistically it's next to impossible for someone to beat 3 highly trained fighters. In the comics he would also lose to these 3 as it would be acceptable for him to be beaten by 3 big named characters all at once.

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#43 Posted by Strafe Prower (11887 posts) - - Show Bio

@god_spawn: I would continue, but you need your sleep.

Great debate and it is a treat to debate you as well.

NOTE: I'm actually not sure who I would give a majority to, I just felt like debating XD

#44 Posted by TDK_1997 (14416 posts) - - Show Bio

The team can win only Round 2.Round 1 is easy for Cap.

#45 Edited by Super_SoldierXII (6128 posts) - - Show Bio

@Strafe Prower:

A few points I disagree with;

Hawkeye is no where near the acrobat Steve is. In fact, I'd be comfortable comparing, feat for feat, Steve's acrobatic accomplishments with the likes of Gambit (and have in a previous debate).

As to the 'car' lifting feat ...while impressive, I feel the artist was trying to portray Clint as using the cars own pendulum to roll it up and off more so than anything superhuman on Clint's end. (At most he was lifting the equivalent of the car's engine and two front tires, and this counterbalanced against the weight from the middle and the back end of the car likewise pulling it down to boot.) Let's see Clint with a few more lifting feats before we start seeing him anywhere remotely close to Captain America.

Finally, Captain America having trained Clint means Steve has far, far greater advantage in knowing how Clint moves than the inverse.

These three are moving into Steve's specialty here. Not the inverse.

Steve holds every advantage ... enough to see him take a majority IMHO.

#46 Posted by Super_SoldierXII (6128 posts) - - Show Bio

@Dextersinister said:

Cap is losing this, realistically it's next to impossible for someone to beat 3 highly trained fighters. In the comics he would also lose to these 3 as it would be acceptable for him to be beaten by 3 big named characters all at once.

No ... not if you're stronger, faster and far better trained it isn't.

#47 Posted by Strafe Prower (11887 posts) - - Show Bio

@Super_SoldierXII: Considering that Cap has no training as an acrobat, he isn't a better acrobat. He might have better agility, but he is not the better acrobat. There is a difference IMO.

As for agility, I would say Clint isn't far behind Cap in this area.

He trains his agility every day. He apparently can keep up with Cap enough to hold a conversation. There is also his fight with the Thunderbolts that shows he has impeccable agility. Add that to his fights with Batroc and Mockingbird (I can post if needed) and I think he is not too far behind Steve in agility.

I meant no implication that Clint is Cap's equal in strength, I'm only suggesting that Cap won't be one-shotting Clint based off strength alone. i honestly don't think it will be much of a factor against 3 opponents of this level.

I disagree. The whole point of training someone is showing them what you know how to do in a combat situation. Not that this has any real relevance to the fight, I just think that they know each other on a equal level.

I agree that this is where Steve's strengths are, but I'm just having a hard time seeing this as clear cut as first suggested. Could Steve take the majority? Definately, but doing so against 3 opponents of this level is a hard thing to do.

Also, I'd like to point out that Clint has proven to be able to dodge Steve's attacks and has beat him via the use of arrows on a previous encounter. The flashback only proves that Clint has improved a great deal since the time that they trained together.

#48 Posted by Strafe Prower (11887 posts) - - Show Bio

@Super_SoldierXII: The Hawkeye vs. Cap fight

#49 Edited by Super_SoldierXII (6128 posts) - - Show Bio

@Strafe Prower said:

@Super_SoldierXII: The Hawkeye vs. Cap fight

Impressive. Hawkeye is definitely growing into a better character. But he has no arrows here, and thereby lacks the damage output to put Steve down.

As to acrobatics, who says Cap has had no training? Irregardless, even in martial arts, has it ever been officially delineated how and from whom Cap's received his training in each and every respective discipline? Just because a comic doesn't expressly state character 'x' has trained 'x' amount of years under 'y' trainer does not mean he doesn't excel at a particular art when he has dozens of feats stating otherwise.

I will post a plethora of scans that will put everything you've shown thus far to shame when I get home later ... (at work ATM).

(Also, had Steve wanted to hit Clint in the scans above with his shield, he would have. Clint huddles up and covers his head. Steve was not trying to hit him. Just talk sense into him).

#50 Posted by Strafe Prower (11887 posts) - - Show Bio

@Super_SoldierXII: True, but Hawkeye also has 2 friends here to help with the damage output problem.

I agree, but Acrobatics just don't come naturally. It is a trained technique that is hard to learn. I haven't heard of Cap having any sort of training in the area, but he certainly could have. I see most of Steve's moves in that area coming from his stats, not training.

Please do. I've never seen any agility scans from Cap, but I will certainly concede this point should you impress me ;) Note: I have posted all my scans yet either, as the images have been stacking oddly as of late.

No argument here that he wasn't trying to hit him, but I think Hawkeye could dodge the shield regardless.