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#1 Posted by jashro44 (23815 posts) - - Show Bio

Constantine Drakon

VS

Captain America

Rules

  • Morals are on
  • Random encounter
  • Drakon has an assortment of knives
  • Cap has his shield and a dessert eagle with 1 clip
  • Both have basic knowledge on each other
  • Win by death/KO/incapacitation

Location

  • Begin 50 feat apart
  • Start visible
  • unpopulated
  • Fight takes place here

Who wins and why?

#2 Edited by TheSwordsman (1954 posts) - - Show Bio

Cap wins. He can track bullets with his eyesight. Tracking Drakon's movements will be no problem.

#3 Posted by tg1982 (2717 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't think Drakon has anything that Cap hasn't faced before. I say Cap FTW.

#4 Posted by jashro44 (23815 posts) - - Show Bio

Here are some Drakon feats.

Runs down the roof top of the apartment across the street, across the street, up the stairs, and kicks down the door in under a minute
He's faster than connor Hawke.
Shows pressure points and strength (punching connor through a door) also makes his left leg and arm numb.
Catching an entire weapon chest 1
Catches the entire chest and is only taken out with a hit from behind.
Running over to roy and cutting his throat 1
Running over to roy and cutting his throat before he can react 2
Cuts roys throat before he can react 3.
Introducing himself
Throws a knife really fast 1
Throws a knife really fast 2
Green arrow calls him a super speeding freak and he also shoots at him from across the street
Nearly shoots green arrow while blind.
More arrow catching
More arrow catching....These things are useless on him.
Blitzing connor and speedy
Blitzing connor and speedy
Blitzing connor and speedy
Defeated due to ambush.

Keep in mind connor hawke is a top tier fighter (gave shiva a tough fight, beat silver monkey, etc)

#5 Posted by dondave (38817 posts) - - Show Bio

Lookin at these Scans Drakon loos way faster tha Cap, Drakon ftw

#6 Edited by Wyldsong (5854 posts) - - Show Bio

@dondave said:

Lookin at these Scans Drakon loos way faster tha Cap, Drakon ftw

I am not trying to debate you down or prove anyone wrong, but I have seen scans of Cap outracing bullets from a gun after they have been fired, dodging lasers/gunfire/etc, and pulling off all sorts of crazy stunts. I am not seeing anything in those scans that would lead me to believe he is too fast for Cap. I am not saying it would be an easy fight, but nothing Cap couldn't handle.

My money is on Cap, but my mind could always be changed with a good argument.

#7 Edited by krauser99 (826 posts) - - Show Bio

Cap's damage soak/durability might be hard for Drakon to overcome. Crazy high fall and then Warmachine takes Cap down much faster and no shield for Steve as he crashes on John Steele like a bullet.

#8 Edited by krauser99 (826 posts) - - Show Bio

Drakon has incredible speed but Cap's stats are more balanced out IMO. With good speed in his own right.

#9 Posted by jashro44 (23815 posts) - - Show Bio

@krauser99:Cap is durable but he can be cut with knives.

#10 Edited by krauser99 (826 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44:True but Steve also has great defense with his shield and the chain mail gives him some protection. Which will make Drakon have less to target on. While Steve will have easier areas to target on his frame. Knives vs Shield my money is on the shield. Especially since its backed up by the experience and enhanced mind that Steve has.

#11 Posted by tg1982 (2717 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44: I didn't catch this until now, but is the "dessert" eagle chocolate? ;-) Just kidding.

@jashro44 said:

@krauser99:Cap is durable but he can be cut with knives.

True, but Drakon has to be able to get through Cap's defenses in order to cut him. If Cap can dodge bullets from close range after they've been fired then I don't see how Drakon can get close enough to even use knives, throwing them wouldn't do much good either, since Cap has his shield and, can dodge bullets after they've been fired. The arrow catching is impressive I won't lie, but he won't catch Cap's shield, IMO, unless he's as strong as Cap, which I doubt he is. Granted I'm not really knowledgeable on Drakon, but I still say that Drakon doesn't have anything Cap hasn't faced before. I'm not even convinced that Drakon is really that much faster than Cap, if at all. And I still think Cap is the better H2H fighter.

Captain America wins the majority in a good fight.

#12 Posted by jackofspades (1860 posts) - - Show Bio

capt

#13 Posted by Lone_Wolf_and_Cub (5234 posts) - - Show Bio

Cap has face tougher an won. Cap ftw

Online
#14 Posted by jashro44 (23815 posts) - - Show Bio

@krauser99 said:

@jashro44:True but Steve also has great defense with his shield and the chain mail gives him some protection. Which will make Drakon have less to target on. While Steve will have easier areas to target on his frame. Knives vs Shield my money is on the shield. Especially since its backed up by the experience and enhanced mind that Steve has.

Well yea thats why I made this fight. Caps got a extremely strong defense where as Drakon has a extremely strong offense IMO. Figured it could be interesting.

@tg1982:

I didn't catch this until now, but is the "dessert" eagle chocolate? ;-) Just kidding.

LOL my mistake.

True, but Drakon has to be able to get through Cap's defenses in order to cut him.

I think its possible with Drakons speed.

If Cap can dodge bullets from close range after they've been fired then I don't see how Drakon can get close enough to even use knives, throwing them wouldn't do much good either, since Cap has his shield and, can dodge bullets after they've been fired.

Sure Cap can move fast enough to dodge point blank bullets after they are fired but Drakon is fast enough to blitz bullet dodgers like Connor hawke, Roy Harper, etc. I think its possible he can get by caps defenses.

The arrow catching is impressive I won't lie, but he won't catch Cap's shield, IMO, unless he's as strong as Cap, which I doubt he is.

Drakon isn't as strong as cap but I think its possible he can catch the shield. Not to down play but lots of people who are slower and less skilled than Drakon have caught it or blocked it (gambit, daredevil, spider-man, punisher, and I think there are more) out of the people I listed I think spider-man is the only one faster than Drakon.

Granted I'm not really knowledgeable on Drakon, but I still say that Drakon doesn't have anything Cap hasn't faced before. I'm not even convinced that Drakon is really that much faster than Cap, if at all. And I still think Cap is the better H2H fighter.

Drakon only has limited showings admittedly so there isn't a lot to go off of. Other than arrow catching, moving faster than eyes can follow (including from people such as roy harper) the best fighter Drakon has faced is connor hawke which as shown above was blitzed. All though Connor himself is a top tier fighter (beat the silver monkey, stomped the bamboo monkey, and gave shiva a tough fight)

Yes he does lose but he is capable to landing a few hits and also blocking and countering a few of shivas attacks.

Comparatively this is how Drakon VS connor went down

Connor is probably a martial artist that is pretty close to the top 10 at the very least and Drakon basically stomped him. I don't believe the same will happen to cap but I don't think he is fast enough to do that to connor.

Captain America wins the majority in a good fight.

I know I am the OP so I probably shouldn't be saying this but I personally think Drakon can take a slight majority. I agree it would be a good fight though and I can see cap possibly winning here. I think think Drakons speed will allow him to be able to cut cap with his knives and possibly get a win here.

#15 Posted by krauser99 (826 posts) - - Show Bio

That's the thing Drakon has done well against Connor while Steve has done well against guys like Cache, Taskmaster, USAgent. Plus Steve is faster then Connor. Your basing this off that Drakon will have a speed edge against Cap but it could very well be the opposite. Cap has ran by Daredevil like a breeze as Matt didn't even know who it was. To even moving so fast superhuman atleanteans struggle to keep up with him. Cap just brings more to the table.

#16 Posted by XiiX (9155 posts) - - Show Bio

@tg1982 said:

I don't think Drakon has anything that Cap hasn't faced before. I say Cap FTW.

Online
#17 Posted by tg1982 (2717 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:

@tg1982:

I didn't catch this until now, but is the "dessert" eagle chocolate? ;-) Just kidding.

LOL my mistake.

Don't sweat it. I make that mistake alot. LOL.

True, but Drakon has to be able to get through Cap's defenses in order to cut him.

I think its possible with Drakons speed.

I agree.

@jashro44 said:

If Cap can dodge bullets from close range after they've been fired then I don't see how Drakon can get close enough to even use knives, throwing them wouldn't do much good either, since Cap has his shield and, can dodge bullets after they've been fired.

Sure Cap can move fast enough to dodge point blank bullets after they are fired but Drakon is fast enough to blitz bullet dodgers like Connor hawke, Roy Harper, etc. I think its possible he can get by caps defenses.

Agreed. But I think it wouldn't be as effective as it is/was against Connor and Roy, mostly due to Cap being faster and stronger than them (Roy and Connor), unless they have enhanced speed as well (I'm not too knowledgeable on any of the Green Arrow familiy). I think if Drakon blitzed Cap he (Cap) would be able to get a few shots in as well, and though I don't know much about Drakon's durability, I think if Cap can get a few shots in, especially with the shield, Drakon would definately feel it and possibly it could be his downfall.

@jashro44 said:

The arrow catching is impressive I won't lie, but he won't catch Cap's shield, IMO, unless he's as strong as Cap, which I doubt he is.

Drakon isn't as strong as cap but I think its possible he can catch the shield. Not to down play but lots of people who are slower and less skilled than Drakon have caught it or blocked it (gambit, daredevil, spider-man, punisher, and I think there are more) out of the people I listed I think spider-man is the only one faster than Drakon.

Fair point. But I've always thought that Cap was holding back and not throwing it as hard as he would against enemies (due to them being fellow heroes), but I admit this is really just speculation, so I'll concede this point.

Also, Punisher caught Cap's shield? When was this? (Just curious)

@jashro44 said:

Granted I'm not really knowledgeable on Drakon, but I still say that Drakon doesn't have anything Cap hasn't faced before. I'm not even convinced that Drakon is really that much faster than Cap, if at all. And I still think Cap is the better H2H fighter.

Drakon only has limited showings admittedly so there isn't a lot to go off of. Other than arrow catching, moving faster than eyes can follow (including from people such as roy harper) the best fighter Drakon has faced is connor hawke which as shown above was blitzed. All though Connor himself is a top tier fighter (beat the silver monkey, stomped the bamboo monkey, and gave shiva a tough fight)

Yes he does lose but he is capable to landing a few hits and also blocking and countering a few of shivas attacks.

Comparatively this is how Drakon VS connor went down

Connor is probably a martial artist that is pretty close to the top 10 at the very least and Drakon basically stomped him. I don't believe the same will happen to cap but I don't think he is fast enough to do that to connor.

Drakon is indeed a great martial artist, but Cap has faced and either beaten or stalemated some of Marvels finest, Black Panther, Daredevil, Iron Fist, Taskmaster just to name a few. And has put up good fights against people who are highly skilled but also superhumanly durable Wolverine and Deadpool (although, I feel they only put up good fights against Cap due to their healing factor, but that is a debate for another time). So I still believe Cap is the better fighter. Although I'll give Drakon his due.

@jashro44 said:

Captain America wins the majority in a good fight.

I know I am the OP so I probably shouldn't be saying this but I personally think Drakon can take a slight majority. I agree it would be a good fight though and I can see cap possibly winning here. I think think Drakons speed will allow him to be able to cut cap with his knives and possibly get a win here.

It seems to me that Drakon likes to toy with his enemies during a fight, which will be his ultimate downfall, IMO. I agree the winner would only be by a slight majority, but I disagree on who that winner would be ;-)

Captain America 6/10 maybe 6.5/10

#18 Posted by Needlebay (1948 posts) - - Show Bio

Cap about 6/10 is about right. Constantine makes him work for it.

#19 Posted by Vaeternus (9410 posts) - - Show Bio

I'll go with Drakon, but you put a big name against a no name and we all know who will win popularity wise lol.

#20 Posted by jashro44 (23815 posts) - - Show Bio

@krauser99:

That's the thing Drakon has done well against Connor while Steve has done well against guys like Cache, Taskmaster, USAgent.

Qaulity>>>>Quantity. Just because cap has more showings doesn't mean they are better.

Plus Steve is faster then Connor.

Sure but I am not just saying drakon has a speed edge on connor therefore he has a speed edge on cap. I am saying he was able to blitz connor, a fighter who was good enough to bloody her up. And yet connor couldn't hope to react to constantine.

Your basing this off that Drakon will have a speed edge against Cap but it could very well be the opposite.

I haven't seen anything yet to say cap is as fast as drakon

Cap has ran by Daredevil like a breeze as Matt didn't even know who it was.

This feat doesn't make sense. Daredevil and cap have fought multiple times and daredevil was able to keep up with cap...He had issues sure but he has given cap a tough fight. Cap has even commented on his speed IIRC. All though do you have a scan or issue reference of this?

To even moving so fast superhuman atleanteans struggle to keep up with him.

like who?

Cap just brings more to the table.

Maybe but I don't see how it compensates for Drakons speed.

@tg1982:

Agreed. But I think it wouldn't be as effective as it is/was against Connor and Roy, mostly due to Cap being faster and stronger than them (Roy and Connor), unless they have enhanced speed as well (I'm not too knowledgeable on any of the Green Arrow familiy). I think if Drakon blitzed Cap he (Cap) would be able to get a few shots in as well, and though I don't know much about Drakon's durability, I think if Cap can get a few shots in, especially with the shield, Drakon would definately feel it and possibly it could be his downfall.

I agree Drakon cannot blitz cap in the manor he did to connor and Roy and they are not enhanced human beings. However they are actual bullet timers. Connor has dodged bullets before (admittedly I am not so sure about Roy all though I would be surprised if he couldn't dodge bullets). Yet despite that they can't even react to Drakon. I haven't seen cap do something like blitzing bullet timers of Roy (he is only a bit behind nightwing) and connor hawke (who is only a bit behind lady shiva) Especially in the way Drakon does it.

Fair point. But I've always thought that Cap was holding back and not throwing it as hard as he would against enemies (due to them being fellow heroes), but I admit this is really just speculation, so I'll concede this point.

Also, Punisher caught Cap's shield? When was this? (Just curious)

Punisher never caught it but he did block it once. Just for the record I am not saying cap would have a hard time beating punisher. He was just one of the example of people slower than drakon who have reacted to caps shields that I remembered.

Drakon is indeed a great martial artist, but Cap has faced and either beaten or stalemated some of Marvels finest, Black Panther, Daredevil, Iron Fist, Taskmaster just to name a few. And has put up good fights against people who are highly skilled but also superhumanly durable Wolverine and Deadpool (although, I feel they only put up good fights against Cap due to their healing factor, but that is a debate for another time). So I still believe Cap is the better fighter. Although I'll give Drakon his due.

Well sure he has defeated or stalemated some of the best in his universe all though he doesn't dominate them like Drakon does. I am not sure about every battle between iron fist and cap though but if I am not mistaken the one time they fought iron fist was exhausted, right? Also I taskmasster has in most encounters done better than cap has, same with wolverine. I do think cap can hold his own but they both have good records against cap. Cap is indeed one of the best in his universe but I just think some of the people mentioned have done pretty well with cap.

It seems to me that Drakon likes to toy with his enemies during a fight, which will be his ultimate downfall, IMO. I agree the winner would only be by a slight majority, but I disagree on who that winner would be ;-)

Captain America 6/10 maybe 6.5/10

Yea, I can't deny cap is the more serious combatant. I agree it is something to be taken into account however I think Drakon can still take a majority here.

#21 Posted by krauser99 (826 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:

@krauser99:

That's the thing Drakon has done well against Connor while Steve has done well against guys like Cache, Taskmaster, USAgent.

Qaulity>>>>Quantity. Just because cap has more showings doesn't mean they are better.

But those three are quality with quantity added to Cap's feats. For him it's just the standard. Notice the characters that Cap defeats are enhanced/skill full guys while Drakon ringer speed helps him defeat just a skill full guy. Hence my phrase Quality/Quantity>>>>Quality.

Plus Steve is faster then Connor.

Sure but I am not just saying drakon has a speed edge on connor therefore he has a speed edge on cap. I am saying he was able to blitz connor, a fighter who was good enough to bloody her up. And yet connor couldn't hope to react to constantine.

Blitz someone who is not comparable to Cap. But Cap has speed feats/blitz feats that would not allow drakon advantage to sway the tide. Cap has feats of tagging characters faster then Connor to even some faster then even Drakon like Spiderman, Beast, Tarantula.

Your basing this off that Drakon will have a speed edge against Cap but it could very well be the opposite.

I haven't seen anything yet to say cap is as fast as drakon

To be honest drakon speed is impressive but by feats Steve seems to be able to match him.

Cap has ran by Daredevil like a breeze as Matt didn't even know who it was.

This feat doesn't make sense. Daredevil and cap have fought multiple times and daredevil was able to keep up with cap...He had issues sure but he has given cap a tough fight. Cap has even commented on his speed IIRC. All though do you have a scan or issue reference of this?

It makes perfect sense. Cap is kind of like Spiderman in a sense that he holds back just not as much as Parker. When he fought Protocide(Another Super Soldier) he remarked he could finally cut loose. In a fight Daredevil can do well because of his Radar/heightened senses for superior anticipation to do well in fights. But Steve is that fast.

To even moving so fast superhuman atleanteans struggle to keep up with him.

like who?

She knows Namor in Cap vol 4 she struggled to keep up with Steve.

Cap just brings more to the table.

Maybe but I don't see how it compensates for Drakons speed.

I believe it does but Drakon definitely can be a threat.

#22 Posted by darktiger (4622 posts) - - Show Bio

@Needlebay said:

Cap about 6/10 is about right. Constantine makes him work for it.

#23 Posted by whitewings1234 (233 posts) - - Show Bio

@TheSwordsman said:

Cap wins. He can track bullets with his eyesight. Tracking Drakon's movements will be no problem.

#24 Posted by Pokeysteve (8558 posts) - - Show Bio

Wow good fight!!

What has two thumbs and is completely torn here.................THIS GUY!

#25 Posted by jashro44 (23815 posts) - - Show Bio

@krauser99:

But those three are quality with quantity added to Cap's feats. For him it's just the standard. Notice the characters that Cap defeats are enhanced/skill full guys while Drakon ringer speed helps him defeat just a skill full guy. Hence my phrase Quality/Quantity>>>>Quality.

I don't know anything about cache but U.S.Agent isn't a better fighter than connor hawke at all and cap has never beaten Taskmaster. There fights have never had a conclusion and from what I have seen taskmaster usually gets the better of cap. The only time I can think cap ever beat taskmaster was there fight on the bridge where he caught taskmaster off guard with the cyber shield. But I don't believe the fight ever finished. The fall simply separated them.

Even if I do count that fight as a win it still wouldn't match up to Drakons showings against connor. Connor is in the same tier as Lady shiva (he isn't as good as her but he has held his own against her)

Blitz someone who is not comparable to Cap. But Cap has speed feats/blitz feats that would not allow drakon advantage to sway the tide. Cap has feats of tagging characters faster then Connor to even some faster then even Drakon like Spiderman, Beast, Tarantula.

The only character you mentioned that is actually faster than Drakon is spider-man. I honestly don't think either beast or tarantula are faster than Drakon. The first time cap fought spider-man was decades ago, the same decade spider-man was having a hard time with the enforcers. The next time cap did well was in civil war when spider-man was morally conflicted, cap studied spider-mans moves. There is also the fact spider-man is a captain america fanboy.

It makes perfect sense. Cap is kind of like Spiderman in a sense that he holds back just not as much as Parker. When he fought Protocide(Another Super Soldier) he remarked he could finally cut loose. In a fight Daredevil can do well because of his Radar/heightened senses for superior anticipation to do well in fights. But Steve is that fast.

Your scan doesn't say caps speed is why daredevil didn't recognize cap...Cap was an entire block away when daredevil picked up his scent and they are in a city with lots of other things that smell. He does state he is faster than daredevil and runs by him with ease but this isn't a race. Daredevil didn't have any issues sensing him when cap was close enough to him. Usain Bolt is not a faster fighter than bruce lee but he would win a race against bruce lee. Constatine Drakon blitzes bullet timers in combat, cap doesn't (well not so far anyways...)

She knows Namor in Cap vol 4 she struggled to keep up with Steve.

LOL I am a idiot. I don't know why but I didn't read that as atleanteans. Sorry about that. Anyways Namor isn't a skilled fighter. There is a difference between fighting a martial artist who is really fast and fighting a brick.

@Pokeysteve said:

Wow good fight!!

What has two thumbs and is completely torn here.................THIS GUY!

Thank you!

#26 Posted by krauser99 (826 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:

@krauser99:

But those three are quality with quantity added to Cap's feats. For him it's just the standard. Notice the characters that Cap defeats are enhanced/skill full guys while Drakon ringer speed helps him defeat just a skill full guy. Hence my phrase Quality/Quantity>>>>Quality.

I don't know anything about cache but U.S.Agent isn't a better fighter than connor hawke at all and cap has never beaten Taskmaster. There fights have never had a conclusion and from what I have seen taskmaster usually gets the better of cap. The only time I can think cap ever beat taskmaster was there fight on the bridge where he caught taskmaster off guard with the cyber shield. But I don't believe the fight ever finished. The fall simply separated them.

IIRC Cap defeated Taskmaster in Battle Scars either 1-3 I was told? I could be wrong on that. Yeah the other time Cap had the advantage with his energy shield but still that was a prolonged fight. Tasky only had advantages by hit and run tactics plus he's enhanced unlike Connor. USAgent might be less skilled then Connor but he's pretty skilled in his own right and his stats are way ahead of Connors. Cache has enhanced stats and knows just about every martial arts on Earth thanks to his super computer like brain.

Even if I do count that fight as a win it still wouldn't match up to Drakons showings against connor. Connor is in the same tier as Lady shiva (he isn't as good as her but he has held his own against her)

ABC logic doesn't always work. Just because Drakon handles Connor well does not mean he handles Shiva or BG as well. Plus like you stated Shiva had Connor beat.

Blitz someone who is not comparable to Cap. But Cap has speed feats/blitz feats that would not allow drakon advantage to sway the tide. Cap has feats of tagging characters faster then Connor to even some faster then even Drakon like Spiderman, Beast, Tarantula.

The only character you mentioned that is actually faster then Drakon is spider-man. I honestly don't think either beast or tarantula are faster than Drakon. The first time cap fought spider-man was decades ago, the same decade spider-man was having a hard time with the enforcers. The next time cap did well was in civil war when spider-man was morally conflicted, cap studied spider-mans moves. There is also the fact spider-man is a captain america fanboy.

IIRC tarantula was in his stats class and Beast is pretty fast in his own right if you look at his feats. Cap fighting Spiderman a long time ago doesn't take that away. As even that Spiderman could percieve the world in slo-mo. Him having trouble with others doesn't mean much. Plus you forgot Spiderman in civil war was armor enhanced and Cap did very well against him just like the past. Cap also took it to Beast pretty easily in IC or IG. Can't remember which one.

It makes perfect sense. Cap is kind of like Spiderman in a sense that he holds back just not as much as Parker. When he fought Protocide(Another Super Soldier) he remarked he could finally cut loose. In a fight Daredevil can do well because of his Radar/heightened senses for superior anticipation to do well in fights. But Steve is that fast.

Your scan doesn't say caps speed is why daredevil didn't recognize cap...Cap was an entire block away when daredevil picked up his scent and they are in a city with lots of other things that smell. He does state he is faster than daredevil and runs by him with ease but this isn't a race. Daredevil didn't have any issues sensing him when cap was close enough to him. Usain Bolt is not a faster fighter than bruce lee but he would win a race against bruce lee. Constatine Drakon blitzes bullet timers in combat, cap doesn't (well not so far anyways...)

Cap is that fast to breeze by Daredevil without DD knowing who it is at that specific time when Cap ran by him. Cap lets him catch up with him at the top of the building. Its a good thing DD in past fights has stated Cap is faster then him.......while fighting. That scene just seals the deal. Blitzing Connor really isn't all that impressive since he's not enhanced in any way like the guys that Cap has fought IMO. It's a good feat none the less. Has Drakon blitzed someone like Batgirl(Cass or Slade?) then I would probably be much more impressed. Plus for a blitzer of bullet time beings. Connor has tagged him and he's much slower then Steve, as Connor got him with a knife to his side even with him rolling out of it in mid-leap. And got him with a arrow which is much slower then a bullet the other time, even if it caught him off gaurd on how he did it through the shoulder of his friend.

To be honest with you his fights with Connor so much didn't really look like a blitz but impressive speed combined with incredible skill. Otherwise Connor wouldn't even have time to react or punch to even make Drakon dodge his punch or even tag him at times. As Connor is no Super Soldier.

She knows Namor in Cap vol 4 she struggled to keep up with Steve.

LOL I am a idiot. I don't know why but I didn't read that as atleanteans. Sorry about that. Anyways Namor isn't a skilled fighter. There is a difference between fighting a martial artist who is really fast and fighting a brick.

I didn't say Namor raced him. An atlantean that knows Namor struggled in keeping up with Steve IIRC her name is Hana. Though Steve has fought Namor in the past, that's not what I was referencing.

#27 Posted by jashro44 (23815 posts) - - Show Bio

@krauser99:

IIRC Cap defeated Taskmaster in Battle Scars either 1-3 I was told? I could be wrong on that. Yeah the other time Cap had the advantage with his energy shield but still that was a prolonged fight. Tasky only had advantages by hit and run tactics plus he's enhanced unlike Connor.

  1. I will look into battle scars and see if I can find the scans but I am gonna be honest and say that even if taskmaster did lose I still don't think it proves much. Taskmaster in most encounters has gotten the better of steve to my knowledge. The cyber shield incident taskmaster was landing multiple strikes until cap caught him off guard, the incident with iron man taskmaster also had the upper hand (he did run away but I think that was because cap had the backing of iron man), and I recall seeing a scan from UDON of taskmaster having the upper hand as well.
  2. Taskmaster is not physically enhanced. He has the copying ability yes but thats really only all he has.

USAgent might be less skilled then Connor but he's pretty skilled in his own right and his stats are way ahead of Connors.

USAgents stats are not as good as people make them out to be. I see connor beating him without much trouble muchless drakon.

Cache has enhanced stats and knows just about every martial arts on Earth thanks to his super computer like brain.

Does he have skill feats?

ABC logic doesn't always work. Just because Drakon handles Connor well does not mean he handles Shiva or BG as well. Plus like you stated Shiva had Connor beat.

Considering the manor he was beating shiva it does mean he can beat her. We have limited showings for Drakon and therefore limited comparisons to be made. I am comparing him to shiva because she is the main notable fighter connor has faced. He did also beat silver monkey (who gave batman a concussion IIRC and was "trained in every form of death"). Based off what we have to go off of so far he would beat lady shiva.

IIRC tarantula was in his stats class and Beast is pretty fast in his own right if you look at his feats.

Neither are as fast and skilled as Drakon. I have seen beasts feats. Tarantula isn't anymore impressive either.

Cap fighting Spiderman a long time ago doesn't take that away. As even that Spiderman could percieve the world in slo-mo. Him having trouble with others doesn't mean much.

Him not using his speed and agility is actually why cap was able to fight him. Based off of feats:

current spider-man>>>Constantine Drakon>>>>>>>>Teenage spider-man. Teenage spider-man was extremely unimpressive. The enforcers consistently gave him problems and he was pinned to the wall by punisher with some knives. Marvel chalked all those low showings up to Peters inexperience. Current spider-man would stomp classic spider-man.

Plus you forgot Spiderman in civil war was armor enhanced and Cap did very well against him just like the past. Cap also took it to Beast pretty easily in IC or IG. Can't remember which one.

Spider-man didn't use the features of the armor. When he did this happened.

Cap is that fast to breeze by Daredevil without DD knowing who it is at that specific time when Cap ran by him. Cap lets him catch up with him at the top of the building. Its a good thing DD in past fights has stated Cap is faster then him.......while fighting. That scene just seals the deal.

  1. The only time in that scan daredevil was unsure if it was cap was when cap was an entire block away, when he was on the city block daredevil was able to sense cap.
  2. When has daredevil stated cap was faster than him?
  3. I don't doubt cap is faster than daredevil I doubt the difference is that significant.

Blitzing Connor really isn't all that impressive since he's not enhanced in any way like the guys that Cap has fought IMO.

Connor has literally done feats like dodge sniper bullets after they have been fired, and has beaten enhanced humans before.

I don't think cap is out of connors league. He might be a tier ahead but I don't think its by much.

Has Drakon blitzed someone like Batgirl(Cass or Slade?) then I would probably be much more impressed.

If Drakon was able to blitz either of those people he would stomp captain america.

Plus for a blitzer of bullet time beings. Connor has tagged him and he's much slower then Steve, as Connor got him with a knife to his side even with him rolling out of it in mid-leap. And got him with a arrow which is much slower then a bullet the other time, even if it caught him off gaurd on how he did it through the shoulder of his friend.

IIRC all of these were surprise attacks.

To be honest with you his fights with Connor so much didn't really look like a blitz but impressive speed combined with incredible skill. Otherwise Connor wouldn't even have time to react or punch to even make Drakon dodge his punch or even tag him at times. As Connor is no Super Soldier.

He lands multiple blows and connor doesn't land one we even see him kick connor in the back of the leg which implies drakon ran around and kicked him in the back of the leg before connor could turn around and defend himself. That is a speed blitz. And he couldn't react here. And connor is in caps league.

I didn't say Namor raced him. An atlantean that knows Namor struggled in keeping up with Steve IIRC her name is Hana. Though Steve has fought Namor in the past, that's not what I was referencing.

Does the atlantean have feats?

#28 Posted by tg1982 (2717 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44: Damnit! I had a bunch of feats for Cap but now the post got deleted. >:-( I'll have to post them later tonight.

#29 Posted by jashro44 (23815 posts) - - Show Bio

@tg1982 said:

@jashro44: Damnit! I had a bunch of feats for Cap but now the post got deleted. >:-( I'll have to post them later tonight.

LOL no problem. I think that once happened to me before.

#30 Posted by jashro44 (23815 posts) - - Show Bio

@tg1982: All though I think its best to tell you to make it easier for you that the images you were uploading should all ready be in your galley. So you should have a easier time re-uploading the scans.

#31 Posted by jeanroygrant (20191 posts) - - Show Bio

Captain America.

#32 Posted by jashro44 (23815 posts) - - Show Bio

@jeanroygrant said:

Captain America.

Reason?

#33 Posted by tg1982 (2717 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44: It's not that, it was the quantity of them, lol. I had like +10 posted, and now I gots to works. but I'll up load them later tonight.

#34 Posted by dondave (38817 posts) - - Show Bio

Constantine Drakon ftw

#35 Posted by jashro44 (23815 posts) - - Show Bio

@tg1982:All right no problem.

#36 Posted by jeanroygrant (20191 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:

@jeanroygrant said:

Captain America.

Reason?

For reasons already stated.

#37 Posted by jashro44 (23815 posts) - - Show Bio

@jeanroygrant said:

@jashro44 said:

@jeanroygrant said:

Captain America.

Reason?

For reasons already stated.

There have been a lot of reasons stated. What reasons in particular?

#38 Edited by Daaerk (204 posts) - - Show Bio

Captain America wins.

The only advantage Constantine Drakon should have over Steve would be speed (he caught multiple arrows shown in previously in the scan) and slightly better fighting skills. Constantine Drakon is out-classed in all other means. Captain America in this fight has an advantage of offense and defense, he has his shield, while Constantine Drakon has throwing knives, which should not be a problem for Cap' to block. For he has fore-sensed bullets that were shot at him and which he easily blocked.

Captain America is also peak human. He is physically enhanced to the "peakest" human possible due to taking a serum.

Though this may be a close fight, I will have to give this fight to Captain America for the reasons I have stated, and others have already stated as well.

Daaerk

#39 Posted by jeanroygrant (20191 posts) - - Show Bio

@Daaerk said:

Captain America wins.

The only advantage Constantine Drakon should have over Steve would be speed (he caught multiple arrows shown in previously in the scan of insane Constantine Drakon features) and slightly better fighting skills. Constantine Drakon is out-classed in all other means. Captain America in this fight has advantage of defense and offense, he has his shield, which Constantine Drakon has throwing which should not be a problem for Cap' to block. For he has fore-sensed bullets that were shot at them and easily blocked them.

Captain America is also peak human. He is physically enhanced to the "peakest" human possible due to taking a serum.

Though this may be a close fight, I will have to give this fight to Captain America for the reasons I have stated, and others have already stated as well.

Daaerk

@jashro44

said:

@jeanroygrant said:

@jashro44 said:

@jeanroygrant said:

Captain America.

Reason?

For reasons already stated.

There have been a lot of reasons stated. What reasons in particular?

#40 Posted by Daaerk (204 posts) - - Show Bio

@jeanroygrant:

Thanks Jean.

#41 Posted by jeanroygrant (20191 posts) - - Show Bio

@Daaerk said:

@jeanroygrant:

Thanks Jean.

np

#42 Posted by whitewings1234 (233 posts) - - Show Bio

Captain America

#43 Edited by krauser99 (826 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:

He lands multiple blows and connor doesn't land one we even see him kick connor in the back of the leg which implies drakon ran around and kicked him in the back of the leg before connor could turn around and defend himself. That is a speed blitz. And he couldn't react here. And connor is in caps league.

@krauser99:

IIRC Cap defeated Taskmaster in Battle Scars either 1-3 I was told? I could be wrong on that. Yeah the other time Cap had the advantage with his energy shield but still that was a prolonged fight. Tasky only had advantages by hit and run tactics plus he's enhanced unlike Connor.

  1. I will look into battle scars and see if I can find the scans but I am gonna be honest and say that even if taskmaster did lose I still don't think it proves much. Taskmaster in most encounters has gotten the better of steve to my knowledge. The cyber shield incident taskmaster was landing multiple strikes until cap caught him off guard, the incident with iron man taskmaster also had the upper hand (he did run away but I think that was because cap had the backing of iron man), and I recall seeing a scan from UDON of taskmaster having the upper hand as well.
  2. Taskmaster is not physically enhanced. He has the copying ability yes but thats really only all he has.

1.I already countered your statement of "taskmater gotten the better of steve

to my knowledge." Like I said Task either knocked cap down and then ran away.

Simply that is not being better.....In a full on fight Cap had the edge and I coulde be wrong but he defeated him in Battle Scars.

2. Task is physcially enhanced did you forget he has photographic "reflexes"?

He has a feat of catching a bullet in the palm of his hand(much faster then arrows) And did also well against Spiderman.

USAgent might be less skilled then Connor but he's pretty skilled in his own right and his stats are way ahead of Connors.

USAgents stats are not as good as people make them out to be. I see connor beating him without much trouble muchless drakon.

I think you are low balling USagent guy is about 10 tons lifted building

rubble off of himself. Plus lifted exercise weights that look like in 8 tons.

A team of Avengers of Ironman, Hawkeye, and two others he fought

by himself and held his own(he was lucky Cap wasn't there).

Cache has enhanced stats and knows just about every martial arts on Earth thanks to his super computer like brain.

Does he have skill feats?

During his

fight with Steve he showed many different styles.

On paper Cache is kind of the Midnighter of his verse but much less feats.

During his fight he showed other styles due to his enhanced super processing computer.

But Cap got the better of him in the end.

ABC logic doesn't always work. Just because Drakon handles Connor well does not mean he handles Shiva or BG as well. Plus like you stated Shiva had Connor beat.

Considering the manor he was beating shiva it does mean he can beat her. We have limited showings for Drakon and therefore limited comparisons to be made. I am comparing him to shiva because she is the main notable fighter connor has faced. He did also beat silver monkey (who gave batman a concussion IIRC and was "trained in every form of death"). Based off what we have to go off of so far he would beat lady shiva.

Impressive don't get me wrong but Shiva is Shiva....and Connor is Connor.

It would be muc

h more impressive if it was Shiva, Batgirl, or even Slade.

I mean upgraded Prometheus(had newer styles) defeated Shiva in 3 seconds much quicker then

Drakon vs Connor fight. Does that mean Prom is greater then Batgirl or

Drakon......not necessarily certain styles counter others better. Drakon speed

counters Connors arrows very well. But Steve just brings more to the table

then Connor. I doubt Connor can go up against some of the characters that

Cap has done well against or even stalemate or have the adv against

Spiderman.

IIRC tarantula was in his stats class and Beast is pretty fast in his own right if you look at his feats.

Neither are as fast and skilled as Drakon. I have seen beasts feats. Tarantula isn't anymore impressive either.

Skilled I agree. Speed I disagree. That what seperates Drakon from

them and make him dangerous. But they have other advantages of course.

Cap fighting Spiderman a long time ago doesn't take that away. As even that Spiderman could percieve the world in slo-mo. Him having trouble with others doesn't mean much.

Him not using his speed and agility is actually why cap was able to fight him. Based off of feats:

current spider-man>>>Constantine Drakon>>>>>>>>Teenage spider-man. Teenage spider-man was extremely unimpressive. The enforcers consistently gave him problems and he was pinned to the wall by punisher with some knives. Marvel chalked all those low showings up to Peters inexperience. Current spider-man would stomp classic spider-man.

Agreed but current Cap is much better as well and held his own with Spiderman.

Plus you forgot Spiderman in civil war was armor enhanced and Cap did very well against him just like the past. Cap also took it to Beast pretty easily in IC or IG. Can't remember which one.

Spider-man didn'

t use the features of the armor. When he did this happened.

During civil war in if I recall correctly civil war. Plus you left out

a scan there. In the next page Cap "uppercuts spiderman" sending

him flying in the air as Ironman crashes down on steve.

The fight I'm refferring to Spiderman uses his new spider arms to

scratch Cap's face. But Cap had the advantage the majority of that

fight in spidermans book IIRC.

Plus just wearing that armor is a enhancement in durability to parker.

Cap is that fast to breeze by Daredevil without DD knowing who it is at that specific time when Cap ran by him. Cap lets him catch up with him at the top of the building. Its a good thing DD in past fights has stated Cap is faster then him.......while fighting. That scene just seals the deal.

  1. The only time in that scan daredevil was unsure if it was cap was when cap was an entire block away, when he was on the city block daredevil was able to sense cap.
  2. When has daredevil stated cap was faster than him?
  3. I don't doubt cap is faster than daredevil I doubt the difference is that significant.

From that scan that I posted Cap is extremely faster.

Daredevil makes up for it with Mystical Radar/enhanced senses

to anticipate where someone is going to be. He even bats

away bullet

s with his clubs. It happened in one of there first fights

matt stated cap is faster them me and he was

going to say...stro-----but Matt got cut off by Cap's hit IIRC.

Blitzing Connor really isn't all that impressive since he's not enhanced in any way like the guys that Cap has fought IMO.

Connor has literally done feats like dodge sniper bullets after they have been fired, and has beaten enhanced humans before.

I don't think cap is out of connors league. He might be a tier ahead but I don't think its by much.

Impressive but Steve is a super soldier I don't see him doing

what Steve could do in hth combat. Weapons sure.

Has Drakon blitzed someone like Batgirl(Cass or Slade?) then I would probably be much more impressed.

If Drakon was able to blitz either of those people he would stomp captain america.

Exactly with that I would be very impressed by Drakon.

But he didn't really blitz Connor but beat him down and

won convincingly. But Connor is no Steve.

Pl

us for a blitzer of bullet time beings. Connor has tagged him and he's much slower then Steve, as Connor got him with a knife to his side even with him rolling out of it in mid-leap. And got him with a arrow which is much slower then a bullet the other time, even if it caught him off gaurd on how he did it through the shoulder of his friend.

IIRC all of these were surprise attacks.

The super soldier will surprise him much more.

Once he sees how fast and strong Cap is. Irregardless Connor did

hit him.

To be honest with you his fights with Connor so much didn't really look like a blitz but impressive speed combined with incredible skill. Otherwise Connor wouldn't even have time to r

eact or punch to even make Drakon dodge his punch or even tag him at times. As Connor is no Super Soldier.

Very impressive but not speed blitz IMO. But a impressive

victory.

I didn't say Namor raced him. An atlantean that knows Namor struggled in keeping up with Steve IIRC her name is Hana. Though

Steve has fought Namor in the past, that's not what I was referencing.

Does the atlantean have feats?

An average atlantean can handle the far pressures of the ocean easily. So I

guess average superhuman stats. But in speed she could

not keep up with Steve. Actual feats I can't recall.

Drakon is impressive but here Connor gets him with a trick arrow, and then

get's him with a arrow in the foot. Notice Connor then retreats because

Drakon with a gun is dangerous(to bad Connor has no shield or enhanced stats

like Steve.) Which is funny Taskmaster does sort of the same with

Cap. He gets a advantage and then has to retreat....kind of like..

Connor here in the first scan. In the second scan he taggs Drakon with a

knife but rolls out mid leap. And in the thrid scan below Connor dodges

Drakons strike. And Steve is faster then Connor thanks to the SSS potential.

#44 Posted by NeonGameWave (8496 posts) - - Show Bio

Captain America wins.

#45 Edited by krauser99 (826 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:

He lands multiple blows and connor doesn't land one we even see him kick connor in the back of the leg which implies drakon ran around and kicked him in the back of the leg before connor could turn around and defend himself. That is a speed blitz. And he couldn't react here. And connor is in caps league.

This is very impressive although it doesn't mean he ran around Connor could just

dash at a angle. But notice no speed blitz lines or moving like a blur or faded

images which represent more of a real speed blitz. A impressive victory none the less. Connor skill is close to or even with Cap but not his stats. Cap

does insane high falls for durability feats(I showed one earlier) and crazy super jumps. There's a difference in stats between

Connor and Cap. And that's what really helps make the difference and add to

that a shield with some decent chain mail on his frame. Steve's odds increase

dramatically in comparison to Connor. Enough for me to believe it favors him.

#46 Posted by jashro44 (23815 posts) - - Show Bio

@krauser99:

1.I already countered your statement of "taskmater gotten the better of steve

to my knowledge." Like I said Task either knocked cap down and then ran away.

Simply that is not being better.....In a full on fight Cap had the edge and I coulde be wrong but he defeated him in Battle Scars.

Captain america has never had the edge on taskmaster. He caught him off guard with a cyber shield. Taskmaster had the upper hand up until that point. They have never had a conclusive battle and taskmaster has had the upper hand in all of them. You have cited battle scars but you aren't really sure which issue it is or if cap won...So I am taking that at face value.

2. Task is physcially enhanced did you forget he has photographic "reflexes"?

He has a feat of catching a bullet in the palm of his hand(much faster then arrows) And did also well against Spiderman.

Photographic reflexes are not physical enhancements. And again taskmaster has had the upper hand in a majority of there fights anyways. There first fight he knocked cap down and would have kept hitting him but he ran away instead. Iron man was there so staying to fight would have been stupid but he clearly had the upper hand. They fought on the bridge and taskmaster cut steve and landed 3 hits (to be fair cap was unarmed) and then cap caught him off gurad with the cyber shield, knocked him down and kicked him off the bridge and taskmaster grabbed his leg while falling. The fight never finished. Cap never won, it was interrupted when they hit the water. I saw a scan of them encountering during Udon, not much of a fight. Cap tosses the shield and taskmaster catches...Thats it. There is supposedly battle scars which you have mentioned but I am still looking into it.

I think you are low balling USagent guy is about 10 tons lifted building

rubble off of himself. Plus lifted exercise weights that look like in 8 tons.

A team of Avengers of Ironman, Hawkeye, and two others he fought

by himself and held his own(he was lucky Cap wasn't there).

Strength isn't the issue (all though I have my doubts about him being a 10 tonner but whatever). Drakon has knives in the setup. All he needs is the speed and skill to cut cap. Iron man isn't a skilled fighter and hawkeye isn't as skilled as connor either. I don't know who the other avengers are so I wont say anything else about the showing until I hear who was there specifically.

Impressive don't get me wrong but Shiva is Shiva....and Connor is Connor.

It would be much more impressive if it was Shiva, Batgirl, or even Slade.

I mean upgraded Prometheus(had newer styles) defeated Shiva in 3 seconds much quicker then

Drakon vs Connor fight. Does that mean Prom is greater then Batgirl or

Drakon......not necessarily certain styles counter others better. Drakon speed

counters Connors arrows very well. But Steve just brings more to the table

then Connor. I doubt Connor can go up against some of the characters that

Cap has done well against or even stalemate or have the adv against

Spiderman.

I don't know much about prometheus but if thats the norm for him then yes that makes him better then batgirl or drakon. Again Slade, shiva, and cass are all as good as cap (I would even argue deathstroke and cass beating cap for a majority to be honest) if he was beating them in the manor he beat connor he would stomp cap easily. And connor isn't far from there level. He has all ready proven to be in the same tier as shiva...He isn't as good but he is capable of holding his own with shiva.

Agreed but current Cap is much better as well and held his own with Spiderman.

Due to spider-mans hero worship.

From that scan that I posted Cap is extremely faster.

Daredevil makes up for it with Mystical Radar/enhanced senses

to anticipate where someone is going to be. He even bats

away bullet

s with his clubs. It happened in one of there first fights

matt stated cap is faster them me and he was

going to say...stro-----but Matt got cut off by Cap's hit IIRC.

He said "I never realized how fast how str--" He never said cap was faster than him in combat. Just that he was fast. You can say I am fast but it doesn't mean I am faster.

Impressive but Steve is a super soldier I don't see him doing

what Steve could do in hth combat. Weapons sure.

Has Drakon blitzed someone like Batgirl(Cass or Slade?) then I would probably be much more impressed.

What I am trying to say is just because steve is enhanced doesn't mean he is out of connors league. What has steve done to put him out of connors league? I don't doubt steve would beat connor I doubt it would be in the manor drakon did however. I am not trying to prove drakon will stomp cap I am trying to prove he will win in a good fight.

The super soldier will surprise him much more.

Once he sees how fast and strong Cap is. Irregardless Connor did

hit him.

How so? If cap throws his shield Drakon will likely catch it before it hits a wall (he likes to catch projectiles). Cap could try using a gun but he only has a clip. And drakon was able to speed blitz a man who dodged a sniper bullet after it was fired. So he can dodge bullets and if he needs to he can use caps shield to block them as well.

An average atlantean can handle the far pressures of the ocean easily. So I

guess average superhuman stats. But in speed she could

not keep up with Steve. Actual feats I can't recall.

If he doesn't have feats I don't believe it is something Drakon cannot do.

Drakon is impressive but here Connor gets him with a trick arrow, and then

get's him with a arrow in the foot. Notice Connor then retreats because

Drakon with a gun is dangerous(to bad Connor has no shield or enhanced stats

like Steve.)

Thats not connor and cap doesn't have trick arrows so I don't see this as really that relevant. Replace the shield with the arrow and cap is at a disadvantage.

Which is funny Taskmaster does sort of the same with

Cap. He gets a advantage and then has to retreat....kind of like..

Connor here in the first scan. In the second scan he taggs Drakon with a

knife but rolls out mid leap. And in the thrid scan below Connor dodges

Drakons strike. And Steve is faster then Connor thanks to the SSS potential.

Drakon says he underestimated Connor. That is why he was tagged. He never dodged a kick in that scan

During civil war in if I recall correctly civil war. Plus you left out

a scan there. In the next page Cap "uppercuts spiderman" sending

him flying in the air as Ironman crashes down on steve.

The fight I'm refferring to Spiderman uses his new spider arms to

scratch Cap's face. But Cap had the advantage the majority of that

fight in spidermans book IIRC.

Plus just wearing that armor is a enhancement in durability to parker.

Almost forgot to address this part. The reason I didn't upload the 4th scan is because I don't think its relevant. Cap never hit spider-man, spider-man dodged cap. If he uppercutted spider-man spider-mans face would be above caps fist however in the final scan I missed his face is level with caps fist.

I know this isn't the fight you are referring, but as I all ready said spider-man didn't want to fight cap in that issue. He was emotionally conflicted and not giving it his all. When he did the above happened.

This is very impressive although it doesn't mean he ran around Connor could just

dash at a angle. But notice no speed blitz lines or moving like a blur or faded

images which represent more of a real speed blitz.

The kick is coming directly behind connor. Doesn't matter if he was only 98% behind connor he still ran behind him and kicked him.

A impressive victory none the less. Connor skill is close to or even with Cap but not his stats. Cap

does insane high falls for durability feats(I showed one earlier) and crazy super jumps. There's a difference in stats between

Connor and Cap. And that's what really helps make the difference and add to

that a shield with some decent chain mail on his frame. Steve's odds increase

dramatically in comparison to Connor. Enough for me to believe it favors him.

Steve can do great stuff like jump out of airplanes but he isn't immune to stabbing damage. He can be pierced. His speed isn't that far out of connors league from what I have seen. He is faster but I don't think its by enough to pretty much blitz him. Cap has never blitzed a bullet timer even one of roy harpers level. So Drakon is a good deal faster.

@NeonGameWave said:

Captain America wins.

Explain.

#47 Posted by NeonGameWave (8496 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44: He wins because of his durability and stamina.

#48 Posted by jashro44 (23815 posts) - - Show Bio

@NeonGameWave said:

@jashro44: He wins because of his durability and stamina.

Durability can be bypassed with a knife and when was the last time cap won a battle due to stamina?

#49 Posted by RobocopSlayerT800 (2341 posts) - - Show Bio

@TheSwordsman said:

Cap wins. He can track bullets with his eyesight. Tracking Drakon's movements will be no problem.

#50 Posted by NeonGameWave (8496 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44: I understand your point but it doesn't mean he loses either.