#1901 Posted by SlimJ87D (11031 posts) - - Show Bio

@slimj87d said:

But to continue with our debate. Batman might have the great technique to strike sensitive regions and nerves with his toys too. But Cap is protected with a vibranium diaphragm that doesn't act as just protecting barrier to his sensitive regions but doubles as vibranium protection when it's his turn to strike.

His turn to strike? Don't be absurd. You think Cap's sensitive regions will last long against Bruce's vibrating palm technique?

Ionno, that diaphragm is pretty large in diameter. The diaphragm is also really good at absorbing vibrations.

#1902 Posted by krauser99 (826 posts) - - Show Bio

@Erik said:

@Dex_Starr said:

@jashro44: It was Cap/Falcon 13 and it's bad writing. It was explained in the next issue that his body went into shock and he willed his way back to life.

Rogers does it, it is bad writing. Slade does it and everything is peachy keen.

In fairness, Slade's resurrection was attributed to a healing factor instead of.......willpower. It's a tad more believable.

Actually the SSS is mentioned in those scans as also being a factor. Besides Steve has healed burnt wounds in "seconds". To even a alien virus that affected She Hulk and others did not affect Steve. To surviving in a block of ice for "decades". He can't even die of alcohol poisoning.

Plus Steve even has the lazourus serum injected in him from Dr. Geist.

#1903 Edited by SlimJ87D (11031 posts) - - Show Bio

@krauser99: Sup man, haven't seen you around lately. Yeah, those two users got banned. Dex_Starr for trolling and Erik... wrongfully so. Wish Erik was still around.

#1904 Edited by krauser99 (826 posts) - - Show Bio

@slimj87d said:

@krauser99: Sup man, haven't seen you around lately. Yeah, those two users got banned. Dex_Starr for trolling and Erik... wrongfully so. Wish Erik was still around.

Yeah I have been taking a break. Good to see your still here.

#1905 Posted by russellmania77 (15959 posts) - - Show Bio

Batman

#1906 Posted by TDK_1997 (15278 posts) - - Show Bio

And I will say it again.....Batman!

#1907 Edited by SlimJ87D (11031 posts) - - Show Bio

@tdk_1997 said:

And I will say it again.....Batman!

Only because your initials spell out THE DARK KNIGHT!

#1908 Posted by TDK_1997 (15278 posts) - - Show Bio

@tdk_1997 said:

And I will say it again.....Batman!

No,because Batman is more skilled and can handle Steve.

#1909 Posted by SlimJ87D (11031 posts) - - Show Bio

@tdk_1997 said:

@tdk_1997 said:

And I will say it again.....Batman!

No,because Batman is more skilled and can handle Steve.

Lol, you replied to yourself. Anyways, for the record I think it's a draw. Factors like battlefield are what would decide the victor.

Skill

I don't think Batman is that superior than Steve. The thing that Batman does have is a more elaborate history on his martial arts abilities and that's why I would give the slight nod to Bruce here. He's also done more nerve strikes than Steve has, but Steve has performed nerve strikes on a number of occasions as well. But I want to showcase some of Steve's skills here.

First, what I'm going to present shows that Steve is at stat advantage against these two. They have a higher durability rating thanks to their healing factors. The point I'm bringing forth is that pointwise and number of strikes landed is was pretty even with them.

Deadpool: Deadpool is a guy that gives Wolverine trouble. He is one of Marvel's top tier. If you haven't visited a Deadpool respect thread, when this guy is on his A game he has given other guys hell, even Taskmaster himself. He has gone back and forth with Wolverine on the scoreboard as well.

@slimj87d said:

Deadpool vs Steve Rogers:

Compared to Danny, what Steve does here is pretty impressive. Now yes, Steve got a first sucker punch, but DP has a healing factor and Steve gave him some time to recover before the fight actually started. Deadpool had a sword, and Steve was bare handed. Steve took a sword slash and a hilt butt to the temple but still managed to disarm DP and dislocate his arm. Again he started bare handed and DP's slash more than makes up for the sucker punch that Steve gave him, Steve as at a handicap this whole fight.

So above Steve unarmed pretty much stalemates Deadpool who is up there in skill and top tier. IMO, he did better than Deadpool skill wise because he has a lower durability rating than Deadpool and he was unarmed while managing to disarming Deadpool after he received a pretty deep cut across the chest.

Wolverine: Wolverine is arguably Bruce's equal or even superior. What Wolverine has showcased is also backed up with a VERY elaborate origin story of martial arts training. This is what Wolverine also has over Steve like Bruce. They both have a very elaborated martial arts history that authors have displayed where Steve's teachers and history is left pretty vague. Wolverine has one of the most impressive resumes of fighting other skilled h2h people with healing factors, adamantium exoskeletons, super strength, etc.

Captain America 404

In the end of the fight Cap tries to talk sense into Logan but gets headbutted by Logan's adamantium skull and gets knocked down. In the end we never knew what Cap had planned with his shield for a counter as he was shot and knocked out. But again, Logan has a much higher durability rating than Steve yet skill wise Cap managed to counter a lot of his strikes.

Wolverine Origins

Till this day I still have no clue how Wolverine used his shoe to cut through Cap's pants and make that deep of a cut. But throughout the fight, Cap showcased a good amount of skill landing dozens of strikes and hits on Logan and coming up with an idea for Logan to stick his claws back in and then crushing his tendons. It was the wound in the end that makes Cap falter, again he doesn't have a healing factor on par with Deadpool or Wolverine but what he did show was a good amount of skill.

AvX

In this fight, skill wise they were pretty even again with Wolverine having the obvious durability and healing factor advantage of course Cap wouldn't be able to beat him specially in these small quarters.

So just speaking of pure skill in maneuvering and landing strikes Cap is up there in skill judging by the way he performs against Wolverine and Deadpool. Sure he didn't beat them, but it's up for debate if Bruce could beat these guys too, and honestly IMO I don't think he could due to their healing factors and durability. Both Bruce and Steve are top tier fighters in their universes. The gap is minimal if there even is any. And if there really is a minimal gap, that is countered with Steve having superior physical stats.

People are always going to bring up Bruce's nerve striking abilities, but if it was that simple to land a nerve strike on a top tier character, why doesn't he just vibrate palm Deathstroke if it's that simple?

In the cases I see Bruce winning it would be due to his gadgets and skill. But Steve will win the other half because of his strength and stamina that compliment his own skill set.

#1910 Edited by TDK_1997 (15278 posts) - - Show Bio

@slimj87d said:

@tdk_1997 said:

@tdk_1997 said:

And I will say it again.....Batman!

No,because Batman is more skilled and can handle Steve.

Lol, you replied to yourself. Anyways, for the record I think it's a draw. Factors like battlefield are what would decide the victor.

Skill

I don't think Batman is that superior than Steve. The thing that Batman does have is a more elaborate history on his martial arts abilities and that's why I would give the slight nod to Bruce here. He's also done more nerve strikes than Steve has, but Steve has performed nerve strikes on a number of occasions as well. But I want to showcase some of Steve's skills here.

First, what I'm going to present shows that Steve is at stat advantage against these two. They have a higher durability rating thanks to their healing factors. The point I'm bringing forth is that pointwise and number of strikes landed is was pretty even with them.

Deadpool: Deadpool is a guy that gives Wolverine trouble. He is one of Marvel's top tier. If you haven't visited a Deadpool respect thread, when this guy is on his A game he has given other guys hell, even Taskmaster himself. He has gone back and forth with Wolverine on the scoreboard as well.

@slimj87d said:

Deadpool vs Steve Rogers:

Compared to Danny, what Steve does here is pretty impressive. Now yes, Steve got a first sucker punch, but DP has a healing factor and Steve gave him some time to recover before the fight actually started. Deadpool had a sword, and Steve was bare handed. Steve took a sword slash and a hilt butt to the temple but still managed to disarm DP and dislocate his arm. Again he started bare handed and DP's slash more than makes up for the sucker punch that Steve gave him, Steve as at a handicap this whole fight.

So above Steve unarmed pretty much stalemates Deadpool who is up there in skill and top tier. IMO, he did better than Deadpool skill wise because he has a lower durability rating than Deadpool and he was unarmed while managing to disarming Deadpool after he received a pretty deep cut across the chest.

Wolverine: Wolverine is arguably Bruce's equal or even superior. What Wolverine has showcased is also backed up with a VERY elaborate origin story of martial arts training. This is what Wolverine also has over Steve like Bruce. They both have a very elaborated martial arts history that authors have displayed where Steve's teachers and history is left pretty vague. Wolverine has one of the most impressive resumes of fighting other skilled h2h people with healing factors, adamantium exoskeletons, super strength, etc.

Captain America 404

In the end of the fight Cap tries to talk sense into Logan but gets headbutted by Logan's adamantium skull and gets knocked down. In the end we never knew what Cap had planned with his shield for a counter as he was shot and knocked out. But again, Logan has a much higher durability rating than Steve yet skill wise Cap managed to counter a lot of his strikes.

Wolverine Origins

Till this day I still have no clue how Wolverine used his shoe to cut through Cap's pants and make that deep of a cut. But throughout the fight, Cap showcased a good amount of skill landing dozens of strikes and hits on Logan and coming up with an idea for Logan to stick his claws back in and then crushing his tendons. It was the wound in the end that makes Cap falter, again he doesn't have a healing factor on par with Deadpool or Wolverine but what he did show was a good amount of skill.

AvX

In this fight, skill wise they were pretty even again with Wolverine having the obvious durability and healing factor advantage of course Cap wouldn't be able to beat him specially in these small quarters.

So just speaking of pure skill in maneuvering and landing strikes Cap is up there in skill judging by the way he performs against Wolverine and Deadpool. Sure he didn't beat them, but it's up for debate if Bruce could beat these guys too, and honestly IMO I don't think he could due to their healing factors and durability. Both Bruce and Steve are top tier fighters in their universes. The gap is minimal if there even is any. And if there really is a minimal gap, that is countered with Steve having superior physical stats.

People are always going to bring up Bruce's nerve striking abilities, but if it was that simple to land a nerve strike on a top tier character, why doesn't he just vibrate palm Deathstroke if it's that simple?

In the cases I see Bruce winning it would be due to his gadgets and skill. But Steve will win the other half because of his strength and stamina that compliment his own skill set.

Well Steve does have some really good skills.Through all of the years he has been one of the best Marvel fighters and he has had some really tough battles and I respect that.But I am giving it to Batman because of the way he walks into a fight.He is more of a thinker and a strategist,he sure thinks for the outcome of the battle way more than Steve(don't get me wrong,Steve is a strategitst as well).He has gone against opponents that have given him a hell of a battle but he has defeated them and in this battle will be exactly the same.

And for those scans,I know all of them but the first one and the last two I can't take them that seriously.That's because the first one is written by Daniel Way and he doesn't have a talent,his writing is absurd and so are his battles and that goes for the battle between Logan and Cap in Wolverine Origins as well.And for the last battle it's from AvX and in that event we saw some really stupid battles.

#1911 Posted by Pcexy (24 posts) - - Show Bio

Batman would win, he is a more skilled fighter (He's trained in over a hundred distinct martial arts), he's as strong, if not stronger than cap, he's also smarter like a LOT smarter, he has more gadgets, and he has the justice league on his side so if cap and batman call their teams to aid them, the justice league would beat the avengers.

#1912 Posted by SAMUSBOI (80 posts) - - Show Bio

Bats BOI!!!!! Yo nasty ass just got owned by Phorqe SON! LOL!

#1913 Edited by Sufferthorn (1738 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_mighty_thor said:

OP UPDATE:

(courtesy of your friendly neighborhood mod k4tz)

ROUND 1:

Standard gear. Opposite ends of a city block. Sun is setting. Unpopulated and the full environment is at their disposal. In character / standard elimination rules apply / random encounter.

ROUND 2:

Unarmed combat in a dojo. In character / random encounter / standard elimination rules apply.

ROUND 3:

Ladies and gentlemen, it's bloodlust time. Discuss how round 1 and 2 would play out if the characters were going for the kill.

Round 1: Batman

Round 2: Captain America.

Cap is a better H2H fighter imo.

But Batman is better AT fighting physically superior opponents, Round 1 is Batman's due to all of his toys and superior agility.

Round 3: I don't know, if Captain America hits Batman as hard as he can with his Shield, that could be deadly, and I still think he would win in Round 2.

#1914 Posted by comic_book_fan (6066 posts) - - Show Bio

batman wins all 3

#1915 Posted by nut34 (39 posts) - - Show Bio

@fetts: that isnt a real comic, its a home made comic of 4 pages made by a fan, so i think that doesnt probe nothing.

#1916 Posted by doggywarning (12 posts) - - Show Bio

I'd say the Captain, Batman is waaay overrated...

#1917 Posted by jojjimbo (2463 posts) - - Show Bio

Captain America.

#1918 Posted by jbach418 (7 posts) - - Show Bio

Batman definitly

#1919 Posted by Rex_the_Rebel99 (5 posts) - - Show Bio

Batman would own Cap.He would nerve pinch Cap before he could even attempt to throw his shield.

#1920 Posted by plow (1 posts) - - Show Bio

batman owns captain america

#1921 Posted by CF12793 (2993 posts) - - Show Bio

To me there's never been a distinct winner or loser in this fight. Both of them are top combatants, both are in second-to-none physical shape, both of them have had their share of impressive feats and are be able to go beyond human for a time, I'd say that given all we know about both characters and how they operate and fight, this fight would most likely end in a stalemate. Batman could take Cap down with a variety of his weapons, but Cap has the strength and the speed to put Bats down. I'd say that they're both equal in terms of skill, nearly unmatched except by a few (Nightwing, Richard Dragon, Shiva in the DC Universe. Iron Fist, Black Panther, Shang Chi come to mind in the marvel Universe)

It's really to close for me to call whether there'd actually be a "winner" in a fight between Batman and Captain America.

#1922 Posted by nightwing737 (1103 posts) - - Show Bio

I say Cap he could bite Batman's fingers off.

#1923 Posted by Erick_Williams (763 posts) - - Show Bio

im going bats on this one, too many gadgets and better martial skill, it comes down to caps sheild and everything in bats cave.

#1924 Edited by patrat18 (11152 posts) - - Show Bio

@plow said:

batman owns captain america

All rounds.

#1925 Posted by SOG7dc (8584 posts) - - Show Bio

Knockout gas

flash bangs

dim mak

tazers

is there any reason these things wouldnt work on Steve?

#1926 Posted by VMole (635 posts) - - Show Bio

@sog7dc said:

Knockout gas

flash bangs

dim mak

tazers

is there any reason these things wouldnt work on Steve?

Because he isn't a training dummy, he's Bruce's physical superior and has consistently displayed low-end superhuman qualities. Steve probably hasn't mastered as many martial arts as Bruce, but he doesn't need to, he knows enough to create an effective style that that synergizes them perfectly.

I'd say Steve and Slade are more physically comparable than Steve and Bruce, and we've seen how the fights between Deathstroke and Batman typically turn out.

#1927 Edited by comic_book_fan (6066 posts) - - Show Bio

batman

#1928 Posted by SOG7dc (8584 posts) - - Show Bio

@vmole said:

@sog7dc said:

Knockout gas

flash bangs

dim mak

tazers

is there any reason these things wouldnt work on Steve?

Because he isn't a training dummy, he's Bruce's physical superior and has consistently displayed low-end superhuman qualities. Steve probably hasn't mastered as many martial arts as Bruce, but he doesn't need to, he knows enough to create an effective style that that synergizes them perfectly.

I'd say Steve and Slade are more physically comparable than Steve and Bruce, and we've seen how the fights between Deathstroke and Batman typically turn out.

yes he is his physical superior but you really didnt answer my question. why wouldnt knockout gas, nerve gas, flash bangs, or tazers work on steve? remember that batman is slightly more skilled than cap and he is not a dummy either. bruce would be the smartest fighter steve has fought. and while yes slade does routinely spank bruce slade is almost always armored to the teeth, and bruce forgets all his gadgets as well. so does the SSS protect steve from things like knockout gas, nerve gas, flash bangs, and tazers? if it does not then i have to assume that all of those things are viable ways for batman to win against steve

#1929 Posted by VMole (635 posts) - - Show Bio

@sog7dc said:

@vmole said:

@sog7dc said:

Knockout gas

flash bangs

dim mak

tazers

is there any reason these things wouldnt work on Steve?

Because he isn't a training dummy, he's Bruce's physical superior and has consistently displayed low-end superhuman qualities. Steve probably hasn't mastered as many martial arts as Bruce, but he doesn't need to, he knows enough to create an effective style that that synergizes them perfectly.

I'd say Steve and Slade are more physically comparable than Steve and Bruce, and we've seen how the fights between Deathstroke and Batman typically turn out.

yes he is his physical superior but you really didnt answer my question. why wouldnt knockout gas, nerve gas, flash bangs, or tazers work on steve? remember that batman is slightly more skilled than cap and he is not a dummy either. bruce would be the smartest fighter steve has fought. and while yes slade does routinely spank bruce slade is almost always armored to the teeth, and bruce forgets all his gadgets as well. so does the SSS protect steve from things like knockout gas, nerve gas, flash bangs, and tazers? if it does not then i have to assume that all of those things are viable ways for batman to win against steve

Never said that gas wouldn't affect Steve if he were somehow a victim to swallowing some of the gas, though I am certain it would affect him less severely than it would a normal person, and I'd wager that he'd take a hit from a tazer a lot better as well since his stamina and overall toughness is far greater than that of any normal human.

Of course, you are also under the assumption that he'd fall victim to these maneuvers in the first place. Steve has been in the game long enough to deal with gas and flash bombs, and as for the taser, Steve can also just move out of the way from being struck. There's also nothing to imply that those gadgets would be as effective as you would assume them to be, 'else Batman would be employing them far more regularly against opponents that are beyond his paygrade, though to be fair, he did try them against Bane in their most recent fight, and Bane simply laughed them off and proceeded to beat Batman silly.

Also, if I recall, Deathstroke beat Batman bare handed in various instances with little use of his gear. You think it would have helped Batman to employ his gadgets to deal with Slade in those instances, right?

#1930 Edited by SOG7dc (8584 posts) - - Show Bio

@vmole said:

@sog7dc said:

@vmole said:

@sog7dc said:

Knockout gas

flash bangs

dim mak

tazers

is there any reason these things wouldnt work on Steve?

Because he isn't a training dummy, he's Bruce's physical superior and has consistently displayed low-end superhuman qualities. Steve probably hasn't mastered as many martial arts as Bruce, but he doesn't need to, he knows enough to create an effective style that that synergizes them perfectly.

I'd say Steve and Slade are more physically comparable than Steve and Bruce, and we've seen how the fights between Deathstroke and Batman typically turn out.

yes he is his physical superior but you really didnt answer my question. why wouldnt knockout gas, nerve gas, flash bangs, or tazers work on steve? remember that batman is slightly more skilled than cap and he is not a dummy either. bruce would be the smartest fighter steve has fought. and while yes slade does routinely spank bruce slade is almost always armored to the teeth, and bruce forgets all his gadgets as well. so does the SSS protect steve from things like knockout gas, nerve gas, flash bangs, and tazers? if it does not then i have to assume that all of those things are viable ways for batman to win against steve

Never said that gas wouldn't affect Steve if he were somehow a victim to swallowing some of the gas, though I am certain it would affect him less severely than it would a normal person, and I'd wager that he'd take a hit from a tazer a lot better as well since his stamina and overall toughness is far greater than that of any normal human.

Of course, you are also under the assumption that he'd fall victim to these maneuvers in the first place. Steve has been in the game long enough to deal with gas and flash bombs, and as for the taser, Steve can also just move out of the way from being struck. There's also nothing to imply that those gadgets would be as effective as you would assume them to be, 'else Batman would be employing them far more regularly against opponents that are beyond his paygrade, though to be fair, he did try them against Bane in their most recent fight, and Bane simply laughed them off and proceeded to beat Batman silly.

Also, if I recall, Deathstroke beat Batman bare handed in various instances with little use of his gear. You think it would have helped Batman to employ his gadgets to deal with Slade in those instances, right?

-help me understand what you mean here. you think batmanwould not be able to effectively utilize a tazer, a flash bang, a grenade with either knockout or nerve gas inside of it?

-well in the case of a flash bang he wouldnt have to ht him ith t just throw it in steve's vicinity. and as far as gas batman has displayed the skill to effectively use it on artemis in close quarters combat before.

-has steve shown any resistance in the past to knockout gas or nerve gas? if not then there is no reason to think that he would be immune or protected against it.

-i adressed this already. writers just dont let him use his gadgets in logical situations like that. when he fought sensei is one prime example. a well thrown flash bang and batman wins the fight. but the writer insists on batman goig h2h against him instead. in the battle forums we dont use PIS like that as a basis for intelligence.

-well first of all that is new 52 bane who seems to be alot stronger, faster and more durable on this new venom than he was pre-52 and even still the tazer showed a visible effect on bane both ties it was used.

-it definitely would have. but for the sake of plot there was no use of any gadget at all. thats PIS and we dont use it in the battle forums.

my argument in a nutshell:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11/113654/2127856-batman_artemis.png

why wouldnt that work on steve? (i remind of the high evel of h2h combat all amazons are subjected to)

#1931 Posted by Wolverine08 (46037 posts) - - Show Bio

I agree with Katz article a few months back that this fight is a 50/50 spilt.

Online
#1932 Edited by VMole (635 posts) - - Show Bio

@sog7dc said:

@vmole said:

@sog7dc said:

@vmole said:

@sog7dc said:

Knockout gas

flash bangs

dim mak

tazers

is there any reason these things wouldnt work on Steve?

Because he isn't a training dummy, he's Bruce's physical superior and has consistently displayed low-end superhuman qualities. Steve probably hasn't mastered as many martial arts as Bruce, but he doesn't need to, he knows enough to create an effective style that that synergizes them perfectly.

I'd say Steve and Slade are more physically comparable than Steve and Bruce, and we've seen how the fights between Deathstroke and Batman typically turn out.

yes he is his physical superior but you really didnt answer my question. why wouldnt knockout gas, nerve gas, flash bangs, or tazers work on steve? remember that batman is slightly more skilled than cap and he is not a dummy either. bruce would be the smartest fighter steve has fought. and while yes slade does routinely spank bruce slade is almost always armored to the teeth, and bruce forgets all his gadgets as well. so does the SSS protect steve from things like knockout gas, nerve gas, flash bangs, and tazers? if it does not then i have to assume that all of those things are viable ways for batman to win against steve

Never said that gas wouldn't affect Steve if he were somehow a victim to swallowing some of the gas, though I am certain it would affect him less severely than it would a normal person, and I'd wager that he'd take a hit from a tazer a lot better as well since his stamina and overall toughness is far greater than that of any normal human.

Of course, you are also under the assumption that he'd fall victim to these maneuvers in the first place. Steve has been in the game long enough to deal with gas and flash bombs, and as for the taser, Steve can also just move out of the way from being struck. There's also nothing to imply that those gadgets would be as effective as you would assume them to be, 'else Batman would be employing them far more regularly against opponents that are beyond his paygrade, though to be fair, he did try them against Bane in their most recent fight, and Bane simply laughed them off and proceeded to beat Batman silly.

Also, if I recall, Deathstroke beat Batman bare handed in various instances with little use of his gear. You think it would have helped Batman to employ his gadgets to deal with Slade in those instances, right?

-help me understand what you mean here. you think batmanwould not be able to effectively utilize a tazer, a flash bang, a grenade with either knockout or nerve gas inside of it?

-well in the case of a flash bang he wouldnt have to ht him ith t just throw it in steve's vicinity. and as far as gas batman has displayed the skill to effectively use it on artemis in close quarters combat before.

-has steve shown any resistance in the past to knockout gas or nerve gas? if not then there is no reason to think that he would be immune or protected against it.

-i adressed this already. writers just dont let him use his gadgets in logical situations like that. when he fought sensei is one prime example. a well thrown flash bang and batman wins the fight. but the writer insists on batman goig h2h against him instead. in the battle forums we dont use PIS like that as a basis for intelligence.

-well first of all that is new 52 bane who seems to be alot stronger, faster and more durable on this new venom than he was pre-52 and even still the tazer showed a visible effect on bane both ties it was used.

-it definitely would have. but for the sake of plot there was no use of any gadget at all. thats PIS and we dont use it in the battle forums.

my argument in a nutshell:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11/113654/2127856-batman_artemis.png

why wouldnt that work on steve? (i remind of the high evel of h2h combat all amazons are subjected to)

- Like I said, you're assuming perfect conditions for Bruce to get off a gas pellet to affect Steve, or a hit with a tazer. We can both argue back and forth on who would get a hit off with what, but the point is that none of those weapons have been used in an instance where it would have greatly helped Batman out, either because they just wouldn't be effective against the opponents he faces, or his opponents do not give him the opportunity to do so.

- Steve's a veteran of the superhero business and World War 2, he knows what the deal is when a guy throws a metal cylinder or egg-shaped object at him. He casually dodges bullets, a grenade is a heck of a lot more distinct than that.

- He's more resistant to most known toxins and diseases, I can't recall a specific instance where he was instantly affected by gas.

- Bane was stunned long enough for Batman to run away, there was no lasting effect of the taser and Bane still managed to catch up to him, granted Batman was already badly injured from their initial encounter, but it definitely wasn't strong enough to knock him out even when directly applied directly to his chest.

- Or maybe that Slade was too fast for Bruce to utilize his gadgets, it was a major point during their encounters that his enhancements were too much for Bruce to counter, even if he wasn't as skilled. Switching around gadgets mid-fight leaves you open to an opponent's attacks, and doing that against someone who is faster and stronger than you leaves you with no room for error.

As for that scan with Artemis and Batman, that right there is a lesson in that if you're going to kill someone, just do it and don't monologue about it.

#1933 Posted by SOG7dc (8584 posts) - - Show Bio

@vmole said:

@sog7dc said:

@vmole said:

@sog7dc said:

@vmole said:

@sog7dc said:

Knockout gas

flash bangs

dim mak

tazers

is there any reason these things wouldnt work on Steve?

Because he isn't a training dummy, he's Bruce's physical superior and has consistently displayed low-end superhuman qualities. Steve probably hasn't mastered as many martial arts as Bruce, but he doesn't need to, he knows enough to create an effective style that that synergizes them perfectly.

I'd say Steve and Slade are more physically comparable than Steve and Bruce, and we've seen how the fights between Deathstroke and Batman typically turn out.

yes he is his physical superior but you really didnt answer my question. why wouldnt knockout gas, nerve gas, flash bangs, or tazers work on steve? remember that batman is slightly more skilled than cap and he is not a dummy either. bruce would be the smartest fighter steve has fought. and while yes slade does routinely spank bruce slade is almost always armored to the teeth, and bruce forgets all his gadgets as well. so does the SSS protect steve from things like knockout gas, nerve gas, flash bangs, and tazers? if it does not then i have to assume that all of those things are viable ways for batman to win against steve

Never said that gas wouldn't affect Steve if he were somehow a victim to swallowing some of the gas, though I am certain it would affect him less severely than it would a normal person, and I'd wager that he'd take a hit from a tazer a lot better as well since his stamina and overall toughness is far greater than that of any normal human.

Of course, you are also under the assumption that he'd fall victim to these maneuvers in the first place. Steve has been in the game long enough to deal with gas and flash bombs, and as for the taser, Steve can also just move out of the way from being struck. There's also nothing to imply that those gadgets would be as effective as you would assume them to be, 'else Batman would be employing them far more regularly against opponents that are beyond his paygrade, though to be fair, he did try them against Bane in their most recent fight, and Bane simply laughed them off and proceeded to beat Batman silly.

Also, if I recall, Deathstroke beat Batman bare handed in various instances with little use of his gear. You think it would have helped Batman to employ his gadgets to deal with Slade in those instances, right?

-help me understand what you mean here. you think batmanwould not be able to effectively utilize a tazer, a flash bang, a grenade with either knockout or nerve gas inside of it?

-well in the case of a flash bang he wouldnt have to ht him ith t just throw it in steve's vicinity. and as far as gas batman has displayed the skill to effectively use it on artemis in close quarters combat before.

-has steve shown any resistance in the past to knockout gas or nerve gas? if not then there is no reason to think that he would be immune or protected against it.

-i adressed this already. writers just dont let him use his gadgets in logical situations like that. when he fought sensei is one prime example. a well thrown flash bang and batman wins the fight. but the writer insists on batman goig h2h against him instead. in the battle forums we dont use PIS like that as a basis for intelligence.

-well first of all that is new 52 bane who seems to be alot stronger, faster and more durable on this new venom than he was pre-52 and even still the tazer showed a visible effect on bane both ties it was used.

-it definitely would have. but for the sake of plot there was no use of any gadget at all. thats PIS and we dont use it in the battle forums.

my argument in a nutshell:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11/113654/2127856-batman_artemis.png

why wouldnt that work on steve? (i remind of the high evel of h2h combat all amazons are subjected to)

- Like I said, you're assuming perfect conditions for Bruce to get off a gas pellet to affect Steve, or a hit with a tazer. We can both argue back and forth on who would get a hit off with what, but the point is that none of those weapons have been used in an instance where it would have greatly helped Batman out, either because they just wouldn't be effective against the opponents he faces, or his opponents do not give him the opportunity to do so.

- Steve's a veteran of the superhero business and World War 2, he knows what the deal is when a guy throws a metal cylinder or egg-shaped object at him. He casually dodges bullets, a grenade is a heck of a lot more distinct than that.

- He's more resistant to most known toxins and diseases, I can't recall a specific instance where he was instantly affected by gas.

- Bane was stunned long enough for Batman to run away, there was no lasting effect of the taser and Bane still managed to catch up to him, granted Batman was already badly injured from their initial encounter, but it definitely wasn't strong enough to knock him out even when directly applied directly to his chest.

- Or maybe that Slade was too fast for Bruce to utilize his gadgets, it was a major point during their encounters that his enhancements were too much for Bruce to counter, even if he wasn't as skilled. Switching around gadgets mid-fight leaves you open to an opponent's attacks, and doing that against someone who is faster and stronger than you leaves you with no room for error.

As for that scan with Artemis and Batman, that right there is a lesson in that if you're going to kill someone, just do it and don't monologue about it.

-perfect conditions? batman utilizes these techniques literally alll of the time. unless the writer wants to have him just fight h2h. he has never had trouble using them when he wanted to. you think that Cap would overwhelm him to the point where batman couldnt reach of a gadget and throw it effectively?

-and because he is a veteran he is somehow immune to smoke pellets or nerve gas or knockout gas?

-do you have anything to prove that claim? anything that proves steve is resisitant to knockout gases or nerve gases?

-and like i said already thats new 52 bane and batman. and it has been made clear that this is new venom with different effects than previous venom. regardless this battle isnt new 52.

-there is nothing that indicates that at all. its just conjecture on your part. batman had plenty of time to use his gadgets against slade but the writer decided that he didnt want it to happen. plain and simple. PIS

That scan also proves that batman is more than skilled enough to utilize knockout gas in CQC and more than capable of going h2h with someone far superior to him physically

#1934 Posted by The Stegman (26663 posts) - - Show Bio

@wolverine08: it's the most evenly matched fight in comics if you ask me.

#1935 Edited by Wolverine08 (46037 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_stegman:

I definitely see how you could think that. These two are equal in so many regards that it's ridiculous.

Online
#1936 Edited by VMole (635 posts) - - Show Bio

@sog7dc said:

@vmole said:

@sog7dc said:

@vmole said:

@sog7dc said:

@vmole said:

@sog7dc said:

Knockout gas

flash bangs

dim mak

tazers

is there any reason these things wouldnt work on Steve?

Because he isn't a training dummy, he's Bruce's physical superior and has consistently displayed low-end superhuman qualities. Steve probably hasn't mastered as many martial arts as Bruce, but he doesn't need to, he knows enough to create an effective style that that synergizes them perfectly.

I'd say Steve and Slade are more physically comparable than Steve and Bruce, and we've seen how the fights between Deathstroke and Batman typically turn out.

yes he is his physical superior but you really didnt answer my question. why wouldnt knockout gas, nerve gas, flash bangs, or tazers work on steve? remember that batman is slightly more skilled than cap and he is not a dummy either. bruce would be the smartest fighter steve has fought. and while yes slade does routinely spank bruce slade is almost always armored to the teeth, and bruce forgets all his gadgets as well. so does the SSS protect steve from things like knockout gas, nerve gas, flash bangs, and tazers? if it does not then i have to assume that all of those things are viable ways for batman to win against steve

Never said that gas wouldn't affect Steve if he were somehow a victim to swallowing some of the gas, though I am certain it would affect him less severely than it would a normal person, and I'd wager that he'd take a hit from a tazer a lot better as well since his stamina and overall toughness is far greater than that of any normal human.

Of course, you are also under the assumption that he'd fall victim to these maneuvers in the first place. Steve has been in the game long enough to deal with gas and flash bombs, and as for the taser, Steve can also just move out of the way from being struck. There's also nothing to imply that those gadgets would be as effective as you would assume them to be, 'else Batman would be employing them far more regularly against opponents that are beyond his paygrade, though to be fair, he did try them against Bane in their most recent fight, and Bane simply laughed them off and proceeded to beat Batman silly.

Also, if I recall, Deathstroke beat Batman bare handed in various instances with little use of his gear. You think it would have helped Batman to employ his gadgets to deal with Slade in those instances, right?

-help me understand what you mean here. you think batmanwould not be able to effectively utilize a tazer, a flash bang, a grenade with either knockout or nerve gas inside of it?

-well in the case of a flash bang he wouldnt have to ht him ith t just throw it in steve's vicinity. and as far as gas batman has displayed the skill to effectively use it on artemis in close quarters combat before.

-has steve shown any resistance in the past to knockout gas or nerve gas? if not then there is no reason to think that he would be immune or protected against it.

-i adressed this already. writers just dont let him use his gadgets in logical situations like that. when he fought sensei is one prime example. a well thrown flash bang and batman wins the fight. but the writer insists on batman goig h2h against him instead. in the battle forums we dont use PIS like that as a basis for intelligence.

-well first of all that is new 52 bane who seems to be alot stronger, faster and more durable on this new venom than he was pre-52 and even still the tazer showed a visible effect on bane both ties it was used.

-it definitely would have. but for the sake of plot there was no use of any gadget at all. thats PIS and we dont use it in the battle forums.

my argument in a nutshell:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11/113654/2127856-batman_artemis.png

why wouldnt that work on steve? (i remind of the high evel of h2h combat all amazons are subjected to)

- Like I said, you're assuming perfect conditions for Bruce to get off a gas pellet to affect Steve, or a hit with a tazer. We can both argue back and forth on who would get a hit off with what, but the point is that none of those weapons have been used in an instance where it would have greatly helped Batman out, either because they just wouldn't be effective against the opponents he faces, or his opponents do not give him the opportunity to do so.

- Steve's a veteran of the superhero business and World War 2, he knows what the deal is when a guy throws a metal cylinder or egg-shaped object at him. He casually dodges bullets, a grenade is a heck of a lot more distinct than that.

- He's more resistant to most known toxins and diseases, I can't recall a specific instance where he was instantly affected by gas.

- Bane was stunned long enough for Batman to run away, there was no lasting effect of the taser and Bane still managed to catch up to him, granted Batman was already badly injured from their initial encounter, but it definitely wasn't strong enough to knock him out even when directly applied directly to his chest.

- Or maybe that Slade was too fast for Bruce to utilize his gadgets, it was a major point during their encounters that his enhancements were too much for Bruce to counter, even if he wasn't as skilled. Switching around gadgets mid-fight leaves you open to an opponent's attacks, and doing that against someone who is faster and stronger than you leaves you with no room for error.

As for that scan with Artemis and Batman, that right there is a lesson in that if you're going to kill someone, just do it and don't monologue about it.

-perfect conditions? batman utilizes these techniques literally alll of the time. unless the writer wants to have him just fight h2h. he has never had trouble using them when he wanted to. you think that Cap would overwhelm him to the point where batman couldnt reach of a gadget and throw it effectively?

-and because he is a veteran he is somehow immune to smoke pellets or nerve gas or knockout gas?

-do you have anything to prove that claim? anything that proves steve is resisitant to knockout gases or nerve gases?

-and like i said already thats new 52 bane and batman. and it has been made clear that this is new venom with different effects than previous venom. regardless this battle isnt new 52.

-there is nothing that indicates that at all. its just conjecture on your part. batman had plenty of time to use his gadgets against slade but the writer decided that he didnt want it to happen. plain and simple. PIS

That scan also proves that batman is more than skilled enough to utilize knockout gas in CQC and more than capable of going h2h with someone far superior to him physically

- All the time? Well dang, a lot of fights must be really short since he has the skill and aptitude to effortlessly utilize his gas and taser against his opponents.

Have you considered maybe because there are circumstances where they wouldn't be useful or require more effort than is necessary to use them?

- Where did I ever imply that he was immune? I said that because he has extensive experience with dealing with gas, he won't do something stupid like fight in it, but rather move outside of he cloud because anyone with any sense would do that.

- The SSS allows him to be resistant against toxins and disease and to expel them more easily, that's been a long established characteristic for the drug.

- What does it matter? Batman had the opportunity to use those devices against Bane in past instances, obviously they couldn't cut the mustard or else he'd use them every time Bane showed up.

- Or maybe because it wouldn't be viable against an opponent like Slade? Because Slade isn't stupid enough to fall for it and wasting time to pull off tricks like that against someone faster, stronger, and maybe a smidge less skilled than him would speed up the process of him getting the crap kicked out of him?

That's not really skill, there are many instances in real life where a person being physically overpowered has pulled out a weapon to kill or incapacitate their attacker, it's relying on the person being distracted from what you're doing with your hands and/or them not putting you in a proper hold to prevent you from using them, in which case, that's Artemis being careless.

As for your argument for Batman using his gas and taser against Captain America as if it's some sort of trump card, Steve has a penchant for throwing his shield with enough force to destroy various vehicles and knock out superhumans, has Batman shown a specific resistance to getting hit by shields thrown with such force?

#1937 Posted by XiiX (9516 posts) - - Show Bio

Split, or slight edge to Captain America.

#1938 Posted by MonsterStomp (21448 posts) - - Show Bio

Batman should closely win all rounds.

Online
#1939 Posted by The Stegman (26663 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_stegman:

I definitely see how you could think that. These two are equal in so many regards that it's ridiculous.

I feel like in terms of fighting skill, combat experience, determination, strategizing etc they are neck in neck. Cap obviously has the physical advantage, then again, Bats makes up for it with the advantage in weapons and tech. Great points can be made for both sides.

#1940 Posted by generator2000 (1202 posts) - - Show Bio

First round: Cap: He has taken Batman level opponents on before.

Second round: Cap: He is physically superior aand almost as skilled.

Third round: Could go either way for multiple reasons.

#1941 Posted by SOG7dc (8584 posts) - - Show Bio

@vmole said:

@sog7dc said:

@vmole said:

@sog7dc said:

@vmole said:

@sog7dc said:

@vmole said:

@sog7dc said:

Knockout gas

flash bangs

dim mak

tazers

is there any reason these things wouldnt work on Steve?

Because he isn't a training dummy, he's Bruce's physical superior and has consistently displayed low-end superhuman qualities. Steve probably hasn't mastered as many martial arts as Bruce, but he doesn't need to, he knows enough to create an effective style that that synergizes them perfectly.

I'd say Steve and Slade are more physically comparable than Steve and Bruce, and we've seen how the fights between Deathstroke and Batman typically turn out.

yes he is his physical superior but you really didnt answer my question. why wouldnt knockout gas, nerve gas, flash bangs, or tazers work on steve? remember that batman is slightly more skilled than cap and he is not a dummy either. bruce would be the smartest fighter steve has fought. and while yes slade does routinely spank bruce slade is almost always armored to the teeth, and bruce forgets all his gadgets as well. so does the SSS protect steve from things like knockout gas, nerve gas, flash bangs, and tazers? if it does not then i have to assume that all of those things are viable ways for batman to win against steve

Never said that gas wouldn't affect Steve if he were somehow a victim to swallowing some of the gas, though I am certain it would affect him less severely than it would a normal person, and I'd wager that he'd take a hit from a tazer a lot better as well since his stamina and overall toughness is far greater than that of any normal human.

Of course, you are also under the assumption that he'd fall victim to these maneuvers in the first place. Steve has been in the game long enough to deal with gas and flash bombs, and as for the taser, Steve can also just move out of the way from being struck. There's also nothing to imply that those gadgets would be as effective as you would assume them to be, 'else Batman would be employing them far more regularly against opponents that are beyond his paygrade, though to be fair, he did try them against Bane in their most recent fight, and Bane simply laughed them off and proceeded to beat Batman silly.

Also, if I recall, Deathstroke beat Batman bare handed in various instances with little use of his gear. You think it would have helped Batman to employ his gadgets to deal with Slade in those instances, right?

-help me understand what you mean here. you think batmanwould not be able to effectively utilize a tazer, a flash bang, a grenade with either knockout or nerve gas inside of it?

-well in the case of a flash bang he wouldnt have to ht him ith t just throw it in steve's vicinity. and as far as gas batman has displayed the skill to effectively use it on artemis in close quarters combat before.

-has steve shown any resistance in the past to knockout gas or nerve gas? if not then there is no reason to think that he would be immune or protected against it.

-i adressed this already. writers just dont let him use his gadgets in logical situations like that. when he fought sensei is one prime example. a well thrown flash bang and batman wins the fight. but the writer insists on batman goig h2h against him instead. in the battle forums we dont use PIS like that as a basis for intelligence.

-well first of all that is new 52 bane who seems to be alot stronger, faster and more durable on this new venom than he was pre-52 and even still the tazer showed a visible effect on bane both ties it was used.

-it definitely would have. but for the sake of plot there was no use of any gadget at all. thats PIS and we dont use it in the battle forums.

my argument in a nutshell:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11/113654/2127856-batman_artemis.png

why wouldnt that work on steve? (i remind of the high evel of h2h combat all amazons are subjected to)

- Like I said, you're assuming perfect conditions for Bruce to get off a gas pellet to affect Steve, or a hit with a tazer. We can both argue back and forth on who would get a hit off with what, but the point is that none of those weapons have been used in an instance where it would have greatly helped Batman out, either because they just wouldn't be effective against the opponents he faces, or his opponents do not give him the opportunity to do so.

- Steve's a veteran of the superhero business and World War 2, he knows what the deal is when a guy throws a metal cylinder or egg-shaped object at him. He casually dodges bullets, a grenade is a heck of a lot more distinct than that.

- He's more resistant to most known toxins and diseases, I can't recall a specific instance where he was instantly affected by gas.

- Bane was stunned long enough for Batman to run away, there was no lasting effect of the taser and Bane still managed to catch up to him, granted Batman was already badly injured from their initial encounter, but it definitely wasn't strong enough to knock him out even when directly applied directly to his chest.

- Or maybe that Slade was too fast for Bruce to utilize his gadgets, it was a major point during their encounters that his enhancements were too much for Bruce to counter, even if he wasn't as skilled. Switching around gadgets mid-fight leaves you open to an opponent's attacks, and doing that against someone who is faster and stronger than you leaves you with no room for error.

As for that scan with Artemis and Batman, that right there is a lesson in that if you're going to kill someone, just do it and don't monologue about it.

-perfect conditions? batman utilizes these techniques literally alll of the time. unless the writer wants to have him just fight h2h. he has never had trouble using them when he wanted to. you think that Cap would overwhelm him to the point where batman couldnt reach of a gadget and throw it effectively?

-and because he is a veteran he is somehow immune to smoke pellets or nerve gas or knockout gas?

-do you have anything to prove that claim? anything that proves steve is resisitant to knockout gases or nerve gases?

-and like i said already thats new 52 bane and batman. and it has been made clear that this is new venom with different effects than previous venom. regardless this battle isnt new 52.

-there is nothing that indicates that at all. its just conjecture on your part. batman had plenty of time to use his gadgets against slade but the writer decided that he didnt want it to happen. plain and simple. PIS

That scan also proves that batman is more than skilled enough to utilize knockout gas in CQC and more than capable of going h2h with someone far superior to him physically

- All the time? Well dang, a lot of fights must be really short since he has the skill and aptitude to effortlessly utilize his gas and taser against his opponents.

Have you considered maybe because there are circumstances where they wouldn't be useful or require more effort than is necessary to use them?

- Where did I ever imply that he was immune? I said that because he has extensive experience with dealing with gas, he won't do something stupid like fight in it, but rather move outside of he cloud because anyone with any sense would do that.

- The SSS allows him to be resistant against toxins and disease and to expel them more easily, that's been a long established characteristic for the drug.

- What does it matter? Batman had the opportunity to use those devices against Bane in past instances, obviously they couldn't cut the mustard or else he'd use them every time Bane showed up.

- Or maybe because it wouldn't be viable against an opponent like Slade? Because Slade isn't stupid enough to fall for it and wasting time to pull off tricks like that against someone faster, stronger, and maybe a smidge less skilled than him would speed up the process of him getting the crap kicked out of him?

That's not really skill, there are many instances in real life where a person being physically overpowered has pulled out a weapon to kill or incapacitate their attacker, it's relying on the person being distracted from what you're doing with your hands and/or them not putting you in a proper hold to prevent you from using them, in which case, that's Artemis being careless.

As for your argument for Batman using his gas and taser against Captain America as if it's some sort of trump card, Steve has a penchant for throwing his shield with enough force to destroy various vehicles and knock out superhumans, has Batman shown a specific resistance to getting hit by shields thrown with such force?

- so you think batman, a tactical genius, opts to carry an entire belt and suit full of gadgets he wont be able to use?

-you kept saying he was resistant to toxins and diseases. but fair enough. you say he would move out of the cloud. how about if batman shot the needle in his neck like he did to Artemis?

-scans proving that? is there anything to prove that Cap wont be effected by nerve gas or knockout gas?

-dude. ive gone over PIS like 3 times. the same reason batman doesnt use those gadgets all the time is the same reason Superman doesnt speedblitz everyone he meets. it would make for a boring story.

-fine. call it whatever you like but he still was able to use it in CQC against someone physically stronger faster and at least as skilled if not more skilled than Cap.

yes. and batman has shown the capability t dodge bullets on multiple occasions. does cap throw the shield faster than bullets?

not to mention all the other stuff batman has at his disposal. he could get rid of the shield with powerful magnets that he has shown to carry, then flashbangs, knockout gas, tazers, non lethal grenades, etc.

#1942 Posted by MonsterStomp (21448 posts) - - Show Bio

First round: Cap: He has taken Batman level opponents on before.

Second round: Cap: He is physically superior aand almost as skilled.

Third round: Could go either way for multiple reasons.

1. And Batman has taken Captain America level opponents on before.

2. True. This round can go either way. Captain America would be slightly inferior in terms of skill as much as Batman is slightly inferior in terms of physicality.

3. I just use the mathematical cancel trick from round one.

Online
#1943 Posted by Experio (17632 posts) - - Show Bio

R1: Cap

R2: Cap

R3: Bats

#1944 Posted by VMole (635 posts) - - Show Bio

@sog7dc said:

@vmole said:

@sog7dc said:

@vmole said:

@sog7dc said:

@vmole said:

@sog7dc said:

@vmole said:

@sog7dc said:

Knockout gas

flash bangs

dim mak

tazers

is there any reason these things wouldnt work on Steve?

Because he isn't a training dummy, he's Bruce's physical superior and has consistently displayed low-end superhuman qualities. Steve probably hasn't mastered as many martial arts as Bruce, but he doesn't need to, he knows enough to create an effective style that that synergizes them perfectly.

I'd say Steve and Slade are more physically comparable than Steve and Bruce, and we've seen how the fights between Deathstroke and Batman typically turn out.

yes he is his physical superior but you really didnt answer my question. why wouldnt knockout gas, nerve gas, flash bangs, or tazers work on steve? remember that batman is slightly more skilled than cap and he is not a dummy either. bruce would be the smartest fighter steve has fought. and while yes slade does routinely spank bruce slade is almost always armored to the teeth, and bruce forgets all his gadgets as well. so does the SSS protect steve from things like knockout gas, nerve gas, flash bangs, and tazers? if it does not then i have to assume that all of those things are viable ways for batman to win against steve

Never said that gas wouldn't affect Steve if he were somehow a victim to swallowing some of the gas, though I am certain it would affect him less severely than it would a normal person, and I'd wager that he'd take a hit from a tazer a lot better as well since his stamina and overall toughness is far greater than that of any normal human.

Of course, you are also under the assumption that he'd fall victim to these maneuvers in the first place. Steve has been in the game long enough to deal with gas and flash bombs, and as for the taser, Steve can also just move out of the way from being struck. There's also nothing to imply that those gadgets would be as effective as you would assume them to be, 'else Batman would be employing them far more regularly against opponents that are beyond his paygrade, though to be fair, he did try them against Bane in their most recent fight, and Bane simply laughed them off and proceeded to beat Batman silly.

Also, if I recall, Deathstroke beat Batman bare handed in various instances with little use of his gear. You think it would have helped Batman to employ his gadgets to deal with Slade in those instances, right?

-help me understand what you mean here. you think batmanwould not be able to effectively utilize a tazer, a flash bang, a grenade with either knockout or nerve gas inside of it?

-well in the case of a flash bang he wouldnt have to ht him ith t just throw it in steve's vicinity. and as far as gas batman has displayed the skill to effectively use it on artemis in close quarters combat before.

-has steve shown any resistance in the past to knockout gas or nerve gas? if not then there is no reason to think that he would be immune or protected against it.

-i adressed this already. writers just dont let him use his gadgets in logical situations like that. when he fought sensei is one prime example. a well thrown flash bang and batman wins the fight. but the writer insists on batman goig h2h against him instead. in the battle forums we dont use PIS like that as a basis for intelligence.

-well first of all that is new 52 bane who seems to be alot stronger, faster and more durable on this new venom than he was pre-52 and even still the tazer showed a visible effect on bane both ties it was used.

-it definitely would have. but for the sake of plot there was no use of any gadget at all. thats PIS and we dont use it in the battle forums.

my argument in a nutshell:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11/113654/2127856-batman_artemis.png

why wouldnt that work on steve? (i remind of the high evel of h2h combat all amazons are subjected to)

- Like I said, you're assuming perfect conditions for Bruce to get off a gas pellet to affect Steve, or a hit with a tazer. We can both argue back and forth on who would get a hit off with what, but the point is that none of those weapons have been used in an instance where it would have greatly helped Batman out, either because they just wouldn't be effective against the opponents he faces, or his opponents do not give him the opportunity to do so.

- Steve's a veteran of the superhero business and World War 2, he knows what the deal is when a guy throws a metal cylinder or egg-shaped object at him. He casually dodges bullets, a grenade is a heck of a lot more distinct than that.

- He's more resistant to most known toxins and diseases, I can't recall a specific instance where he was instantly affected by gas.

- Bane was stunned long enough for Batman to run away, there was no lasting effect of the taser and Bane still managed to catch up to him, granted Batman was already badly injured from their initial encounter, but it definitely wasn't strong enough to knock him out even when directly applied directly to his chest.

- Or maybe that Slade was too fast for Bruce to utilize his gadgets, it was a major point during their encounters that his enhancements were too much for Bruce to counter, even if he wasn't as skilled. Switching around gadgets mid-fight leaves you open to an opponent's attacks, and doing that against someone who is faster and stronger than you leaves you with no room for error.

As for that scan with Artemis and Batman, that right there is a lesson in that if you're going to kill someone, just do it and don't monologue about it.

-perfect conditions? batman utilizes these techniques literally alll of the time. unless the writer wants to have him just fight h2h. he has never had trouble using them when he wanted to. you think that Cap would overwhelm him to the point where batman couldnt reach of a gadget and throw it effectively?

-and because he is a veteran he is somehow immune to smoke pellets or nerve gas or knockout gas?

-do you have anything to prove that claim? anything that proves steve is resisitant to knockout gases or nerve gases?

-and like i said already thats new 52 bane and batman. and it has been made clear that this is new venom with different effects than previous venom. regardless this battle isnt new 52.

-there is nothing that indicates that at all. its just conjecture on your part. batman had plenty of time to use his gadgets against slade but the writer decided that he didnt want it to happen. plain and simple. PIS

That scan also proves that batman is more than skilled enough to utilize knockout gas in CQC and more than capable of going h2h with someone far superior to him physically

- All the time? Well dang, a lot of fights must be really short since he has the skill and aptitude to effortlessly utilize his gas and taser against his opponents.

Have you considered maybe because there are circumstances where they wouldn't be useful or require more effort than is necessary to use them?

- Where did I ever imply that he was immune? I said that because he has extensive experience with dealing with gas, he won't do something stupid like fight in it, but rather move outside of he cloud because anyone with any sense would do that.

- The SSS allows him to be resistant against toxins and disease and to expel them more easily, that's been a long established characteristic for the drug.

- What does it matter? Batman had the opportunity to use those devices against Bane in past instances, obviously they couldn't cut the mustard or else he'd use them every time Bane showed up.

- Or maybe because it wouldn't be viable against an opponent like Slade? Because Slade isn't stupid enough to fall for it and wasting time to pull off tricks like that against someone faster, stronger, and maybe a smidge less skilled than him would speed up the process of him getting the crap kicked out of him?

That's not really skill, there are many instances in real life where a person being physically overpowered has pulled out a weapon to kill or incapacitate their attacker, it's relying on the person being distracted from what you're doing with your hands and/or them not putting you in a proper hold to prevent you from using them, in which case, that's Artemis being careless.

As for your argument for Batman using his gas and taser against Captain America as if it's some sort of trump card, Steve has a penchant for throwing his shield with enough force to destroy various vehicles and knock out superhumans, has Batman shown a specific resistance to getting hit by shields thrown with such force?

- so you think batman, a tactical genius, opts to carry an entire belt and suit full of gadgets he wont be able to use?

-you kept saying he was resistant to toxins and diseases. but fair enough. you say he would move out of the cloud. how about if batman shot the needle in his neck like he did to Artemis?

-scans proving that? is there anything to prove that Cap wont be effected by nerve gas or knockout gas?

-dude. ive gone over PIS like 3 times. the same reason batman doesnt use those gadgets all the time is the same reason Superman doesnt speedblitz everyone he meets. it would make for a boring story.

-fine. call it whatever you like but he still was able to use it in CQC against someone physically stronger faster and at least as skilled if not more skilled than Cap.

yes. and batman has shown the capability t dodge bullets on multiple occasions. does cap throw the shield faster than bullets?

not to mention all the other stuff batman has at his disposal. he could get rid of the shield with powerful magnets that he has shown to carry, then flashbangs, knockout gas, tazers, non lethal grenades, etc.

- So you think Captain America, a tactical genius, hasn't dealt with people that have used various devices similar to what Batman uses?

- He reacts to bullets at pointblank range, I think he can pull it off a dodge from a dart.

- Holy crap, you lack reading comprehension, I said that the effects would be reduced, not that he won't be affected, because providing resistance to toxins and disease is part and parcel to the SSS, along with extending a person's youth and life expectancy.

- Superman's speed has the ability of being used in far more possible combat and non-combat scenarios and is more susceptible to bad writing because realistically, it's fairly overpowering in the context of the setting and glaringly noticeable when Superman doesn't use it. Gas works if the environment is relatively closed and if the opponent has no chance of escaping it, and the taser works if Batman can manage to tag his opponent. The latter is much less susceptible to instances of PIS than the former because its use relies a lot more on a specific set of circumstances for it to be effective, it's more plausible to believe that someone can simply cover their nose and mouth, hold their breath, or run away from the gas itself, and for people being too fast to tag by the taser or not being affected by the shock itself.

Batman not using specific gadgets can be more easily waved off as him not having it at the time or because it wouldn't be effective, Superman not using his speed can't be easily waved off unless he is specifically under the influence of something that inhibits his abilities or just plain bad writing.

- When? Deathstroke has beaten Batman more times than Batman has beaten Deathstroke, and I can't recall if gadgets were directly involved under those circumstances.

He carried that magnetic device when he specifically targeted a gang known for using metal masks, he doesn't carry something like that all the time.

#1945 Posted by SOG7dc (8584 posts) - - Show Bio

@vmole:

-ill concede as soon as you show me cap avoiding aforementioned tools that were being used by someone of batmans level of skill

-so you assume he would see the dart coming? like Artemis did?

-so now you degrade into insulting me? very mature on your part. and i will again ask you to prove that he will be less effected by knockout gas and nerve toxins by showing n panel feats. til then its a statement that means nothing.

-covering their nose and mouth? gases dont work if you cover your nose and mouth? someone should have told that to the people in WW2 thatgot hit with mustard gas.in all seriousness though you are grasping it air here. what you are essentially saying is that batmans gadgets wont work because Cap can avoid them all when batman has fought people who are more skilled and physically superior to Cap and utilized his gadgets against them (see Artemis) you also seem to be under the impression that Cap would know enough about batman to be ready for all of his gadgets.

-btman carries magnesium regularly im fairly certain he carries a magnet (that was extremely small) with him. or he could disarm Cap with a batclaw that he definitely has on him.

#1946 Posted by VMole (635 posts) - - Show Bio

@sog7dc said:

@vmole:

-ill concede as soon as you show me cap avoiding aforementioned tools that were being used by someone of batmans level of skill

-so you assume he would see the dart coming? like Artemis did?

-so now you degrade into insulting me? very mature on your part. and i will again ask you to prove that he will be less effected by knockout gas and nerve toxins by showing n panel feats. til then its a statement that means nothing.

-covering their nose and mouth? gases dont work if you cover your nose and mouth? someone should have told that to the people in WW2 thatgot hit with mustard gas.in all seriousness though you are grasping it air here. what you are essentially saying is that batmans gadgets wont work because Cap can avoid them all when batman has fought people who are more skilled and physically superior to Cap and utilized his gadgets against them (see Artemis) you also seem to be under the impression that Cap would know enough about batman to be ready for all of his gadgets.

-btman carries magnesium regularly im fairly certain he carries a magnet (that was extremely small) with him. or he could disarm Cap with a batclaw that he definitely has on him.

- Batman ate dirt when he went up against Prometheus and Deathstroke when attempting to directly engage them, I'm certain that a gas pellet or taser would have worked fine considering they were both out of Batman's league in a straight fight?

- She got hit by the dart because she was carrying on in a careless and arrogant manner, she beat Batman handily before that.

Let me put it in a proper context, Captain America carried on in a nonchalant and half-hearted manner against Gambit because he obviously didn't think much of Gambit's combat ability, that was until Gambit used his chest piece as a bundle of TNT and caught him off guard, Steve then proceeded to beat Gambit like a misbehaving child when he got serious. Steve has no reason to assume that Batman is some throwaway to carry on like initially did against Gambit, especially not under the circumstances stated by the topic starter, he's going in serious.

- I didn't insult you, I pointed out that you lacked reading comprehension because you were being disingenuous by constructing your question in a way to imply that Steve could not be affected by gases, something that I never stated or implied, if you feel insulted by that, then go back and read what I typed and read what you typed again. I never stated he would not be affected, just that they would have a reduced effect thanks to his enhanced physiology due to the SSS.

- Poor comparison, I'm assuming you meant WW1, those soldiers don't have the benefit of moving from their positions to avoid the gas since: 1) Chemical rounds were being fired by artillery to disperse around them, there was literally no place to run. 2) Soldiers risked getting cut to pieces by machine guns running out of their trenches. 3) Soldiers lacked gas masks or were too late to put them on. Steve doesn't have any of these issues and he has the benefit of being imbued with enhanced physical qualities and being in an environment that allows him to mitigate the use of gas much more easily.

Like I mentioned before, Batman was outfought by Artemis before she decided on sticking him with her knife. She got cocky and careless, then she got a dart to the neck, that doesn't show any exceptional skill, it just shows that he capitalized on an opportunity left by a careless opponent, that happens every day in fights.

- I would like to state again, he carried that magnetic device to trap those metal masked thugs when in fact he already studied and prepared for them well before going down into the subway.

Using the batclaw goes both ways, it also means that Steve can just yank Batman towards him and pop him over the head with his shield if Batman somehow manages to catch on to it.

#1947 Posted by SOG7dc (8584 posts) - - Show Bio

@vmole said:

@sog7dc said:

@vmole:

-ill concede as soon as you show me cap avoiding aforementioned tools that were being used by someone of batmans level of skill

-so you assume he would see the dart coming? like Artemis did?

-so now you degrade into insulting me? very mature on your part. and i will again ask you to prove that he will be less effected by knockout gas and nerve toxins by showing n panel feats. til then its a statement that means nothing.

-covering their nose and mouth? gases dont work if you cover your nose and mouth? someone should have told that to the people in WW2 thatgot hit with mustard gas.in all seriousness though you are grasping it air here. what you are essentially saying is that batmans gadgets wont work because Cap can avoid them all when batman has fought people who are more skilled and physically superior to Cap and utilized his gadgets against them (see Artemis) you also seem to be under the impression that Cap would know enough about batman to be ready for all of his gadgets.

-btman carries magnesium regularly im fairly certain he carries a magnet (that was extremely small) with him. or he could disarm Cap with a batclaw that he definitely has on him.

- Batman ate dirt when he went up against Prometheus and Deathstroke when attempting to directly engage them, I'm certain that a gas pellet or taser would have worked fine considering they were both out of Batman's league in a straight fight?

- She got hit by the dart because she was carrying on in a careless and arrogant manner, she beat Batman handily before that.

Let me put it in a proper context, Captain America carried on in a nonchalant and half-hearted manner against Gambit because he obviously didn't think much of Gambit's combat ability, that was until Gambit used his chest piece as a bundle of TNT and caught him off guard, Steve then proceeded to beat Gambit like a misbehaving child when he got serious. Steve has no reason to assume that Batman is some throwaway to carry on like initially did against Gambit, especially not under the circumstances stated by the topic starter, he's going in serious.

- I didn't insult you, I pointed out that you lacked reading comprehension because you were being disingenuous by constructing your question in a way to imply that Steve could not be affected by gases, something that I never stated or implied, if you feel insulted by that, then go back and read what I typed and read what you typed again. I never stated he would not be affected, just that they would have a reduced effect thanks to his enhanced physiology due to the SSS.

- Poor comparison, I'm assuming you meant WW1, those soldiers don't have the benefit of moving from their positions to avoid the gas since: 1) Chemical rounds were being fired by artillery to disperse around them, there was literally no place to run. 2) Soldiers risked getting cut to pieces by machine guns running out of their trenches. 3) Soldiers lacked gas masks or were too late to put them on. Steve doesn't have any of these issues and he has the benefit of being imbued with enhanced physical qualities and being in an environment that allows him to mitigate the use of gas much more easily.

Like I mentioned before, Batman was outfought by Artemis before she decided on sticking him with her knife. She got cocky and careless, then she got a dart to the neck, that doesn't show any exceptional skill, it just shows that he capitalized on an opportunity left by a careless opponent, that happens every day in fights.

- I would like to state again, he carried that magnetic device to trap those metal masked thugs when in fact he already studied and prepared for them well before going down into the subway.

Using the batclaw goes both ways, it also means that Steve can just yank Batman towards him and pop him over the head with his shield if Batman somehow manages to catch on to it.

-omg...PIS........i cannot make it clearer

-handly? what is your definition of handily? they were stalemated until she was on top of him. what evidence is there that bruce couldnt use the same dart on steve?

-and youre now comparing gambit to batman in h2h?

-whatever. you said, and i quote, "He's more resistant to most known toxins and diseases, I can't recall a specific instance where he was instantly affected by gas."

-whoa. i was obviously being facetious. bottom line is that there is no reason to believe that a)bruce couldnt use some sort of gas and b) steve could resist it

-you mentioned it before and you were wrong before:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11/113654/2127856-batman_artemis.png

that is your definition of "handily" beating someone?

let me put it this way: How could steve be ready for something he does not know batman has on him? Steve has no clue that bruce has knockout darts so how would he be ready for them? the same thing that happened to artemis would happen to steve

ok thats fair. he wont have a magnet. but he still has flash bangs (you cant run from sensory overload) and he has knockoutgas (which will work on steve he may be stronger faster and heal qucker but he still has to breathe) he still has enough skill to get the job done

-even though steve wont see it coming or be ready for it?

#1948 Edited by VMole (635 posts) - - Show Bio
@sog7dc said:

@vmole said:

@sog7dc said:

@vmole:

-ill concede as soon as you show me cap avoiding aforementioned tools that were being used by someone of batmans level of skill

-so you assume he would see the dart coming? like Artemis did?

-so now you degrade into insulting me? very mature on your part. and i will again ask you to prove that he will be less effected by knockout gas and nerve toxins by showing n panel feats. til then its a statement that means nothing.

-covering their nose and mouth? gases dont work if you cover your nose and mouth? someone should have told that to the people in WW2 thatgot hit with mustard gas.in all seriousness though you are grasping it air here. what you are essentially saying is that batmans gadgets wont work because Cap can avoid them all when batman has fought people who are more skilled and physically superior to Cap and utilized his gadgets against them (see Artemis) you also seem to be under the impression that Cap would know enough about batman to be ready for all of his gadgets.

-btman carries magnesium regularly im fairly certain he carries a magnet (that was extremely small) with him. or he could disarm Cap with a batclaw that he definitely has on him.

- Batman ate dirt when he went up against Prometheus and Deathstroke when attempting to directly engage them, I'm certain that a gas pellet or taser would have worked fine considering they were both out of Batman's league in a straight fight?

- She got hit by the dart because she was carrying on in a careless and arrogant manner, she beat Batman handily before that.

Let me put it in a proper context, Captain America carried on in a nonchalant and half-hearted manner against Gambit because he obviously didn't think much of Gambit's combat ability, that was until Gambit used his chest piece as a bundle of TNT and caught him off guard, Steve then proceeded to beat Gambit like a misbehaving child when he got serious. Steve has no reason to assume that Batman is some throwaway to carry on like initially did against Gambit, especially not under the circumstances stated by the topic starter, he's going in serious.

- I didn't insult you, I pointed out that you lacked reading comprehension because you were being disingenuous by constructing your question in a way to imply that Steve could not be affected by gases, something that I never stated or implied, if you feel insulted by that, then go back and read what I typed and read what you typed again. I never stated he would not be affected, just that they would have a reduced effect thanks to his enhanced physiology due to the SSS.

- Poor comparison, I'm assuming you meant WW1, those soldiers don't have the benefit of moving from their positions to avoid the gas since: 1) Chemical rounds were being fired by artillery to disperse around them, there was literally no place to run. 2) Soldiers risked getting cut to pieces by machine guns running out of their trenches. 3) Soldiers lacked gas masks or were too late to put them on. Steve doesn't have any of these issues and he has the benefit of being imbued with enhanced physical qualities and being in an environment that allows him to mitigate the use of gas much more easily.

Like I mentioned before, Batman was outfought by Artemis before she decided on sticking him with her knife. She got cocky and careless, then she got a dart to the neck, that doesn't show any exceptional skill, it just shows that he capitalized on an opportunity left by a careless opponent, that happens every day in fights.

- I would like to state again, he carried that magnetic device to trap those metal masked thugs when in fact he already studied and prepared for them well before going down into the subway.

Using the batclaw goes both ways, it also means that Steve can just yank Batman towards him and pop him over the head with his shield if Batman somehow manages to catch on to it.

-omg...PIS........i cannot make it clearer

-handly? what is your definition of handily? they were stalemated until she was on top of him. what evidence is there that bruce couldnt use the same dart on steve?

-and youre now comparing gambit to batman in h2h?

-whatever. you said, and i quote, "He's more resistant to most known toxins and diseases, I can't recall a specific instance where he was instantly affected by gas."

-whoa. i was obviously being facetious. bottom line is that there is no reason to believe that a)bruce couldnt use some sort of gas and b) steve could resist it

-you mentioned it before and you were wrong before:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11/113654/2127856-batman_artemis.png

that is your definition of "handily" beating someone?

let me put it this way: How could steve be ready for something he does not know batman has on him? Steve has no clue that bruce has knockout darts so how would he be ready for them? the same thing that happened to artemis would happen to steve

ok thats fair. he wont have a magnet. but he still has flash bangs (you cant run from sensory overload) and he has knockoutgas (which will work on steve he may be stronger faster and heal qucker but he still has to breathe) he still has enough skill to get the job done

-even though steve wont see it coming or be ready for it?

- So is Batman a walking PIS machine because he doesn't always have a specific gadget to take down every single opponent he fights because it'd be 'too easy' and not make for an interesting story?

It could be that he actually faces opponents that are out of his league in one way or another that gadgets can't properly counter?

- 1) He glides in and challenges Artemis. 2) She deflects a kick. 3) He deflects a punch. 4) He's left open and and Artemis delivers a punch right into his gut that winds him and puts him on the ground.

From the start of the fight, Batman was out in three maneuvers and Artemis had him dead to rights without a single clean blow against her prior to him ending up on the ground, I'd say she bodied him pretty badly.

- The point was that someone's mindset can affect how they fight, Steve was being just as much of an arrogant jerk as Artemis going into the fight with Gambit because he underestimated him and got careless. He lost his focus until Gambit reminded him of what he could really do, that's when he got serious and slapped Gambit around like he should have done at the beginning.

- Yes, I said 'more resistant to most known toxins and diseases', I said 'more resistant' and not 'unaffected'.

'scans proving that? is there anything to prove that Cap wont be effected by nerve gas or knockout gas?'

Notice how you constructed the question to imply that he won't be affected when my argument that Steve is simply more resistant? That's also when I countered that he has to be able to successfully gas him in the first place.

- There's nothing proving that it would be as effective as you make it out to be, otherwise Batman would have yanked it out in encounters against opponents that have put him on the ropes before, or maybe he simply didn't have it on hand to use against them because it's not standard kit?

- I already covered the Batman/Artemis fight, three moves and he was on the ground at her mercy. A dart like that would have been nice against Prometheus and Deathstroke to catch them off guard, no? A grenade would be too obvious, and gas, like I keep repeating over and over again, can be easily avoided.

- Already mentioned, Steve reacts to bullets shot at him from pointblank range, Batman's not pulling that off easily at all and there's nothing to imply that he'd end up in a position similar to Artemis' to allow him that opportunity.

#1949 Edited by AlphaOmegeek (2 posts) - - Show Bio

Ok, here goes. Its obvious that most of the people who argue these battles havent had the pleasure of researching this type of stuff or arent well versed enough in comic lore to make educated statements regarding "versus" combat. If any of you did then you'd know that this supposed "enhanced" athletic abilities edge that rogers is supposed to have is a fluke. Ive read and studied comic books (all= dc, marvel, continuity, crossgen, top cow, comico, malibu etc.) since I was six and just reading. Not to be a super jerk BUT, you must take into account all of any characters mythos to get a true understanding of what theyre capable of.

#1950 Posted by AlphaOmegeek (2 posts) - - Show Bio

The one BAD thing about all of these new comic movies is that the characters are being "tweaked" to fit the times and that provides a distorted view of who the character is and what their powers are. These "characters" have my respect, all of them and theyve earned the prestige they have because based off of their stories theyve done alot. However we need to learn to study stats. Stats were originally what creators used to gauge their creations potential. Any real comic head out there can tell me that the 1980's era Marvel official handbooks Captain America and the DC's who's who Batman had nearly identical stats. Now go my pupils, research and get back to me after the truth is revealed to you and we will again further discuss this contest between the dark champion and patriotic sentinel.