Captain America (Lvenger) vs Kraven (ComicStooge)

For whatever reason, I couldn't post this thread without making it a poll. Weird.

But anyway, @lvenger, is this OP alright?

@comicstooge: The OP is just fine. I thought you would have gone for a more jungle like battlefield but this is a nice compromise for both combatants. Do you want to make the opening post or would you like me to start?

Dis gon be good!

With the quality of debates you two have been putting up recently,I can't help but be excited for this.

@lvenger Don't let Cap down ;)

@veshark: I'll try not to but unfortunately, street level debates are not my strongest forte. I'm only good with a select number of street levellers like Batman, Spider-Man and Cap. Nonetheless, I'll try not to let the side down! :)

Don't worry, I'm terrible at powerhouse-level characters myself! And nah, you'll do great. ;)

You too, @comicstooge Best of luck as well!

Its @slimj87d you need to worry about >:)

@laflux: Lol, thanks. I'm sure this is gong to be an awesome debate.

Would you mind starting?

@comicstooge: Sure I shall make my first post at some point today in the afternoon.

Cool. I would start, but I've been at a schoolduction all night and my brain is fried.

OK I'll make the opening post of what is my first ever street level debate. Luckily for you this isn't my forte. Let's get to it! Firstly, I'll note the environment choice. It's a nice even battleground for these two to fight on. A concrete jungle provides maneuverability to Kraven but it's somewhere Cap is very familiar with. If this were in a jungle, Kraven would have massive edge in utlising the environment to his advantage. Fortunately, that's not something he has here.

Now Kraven is far from an unworthy foe for Captain America to face. He's tangled with Spider-Man, Vermin, Venom, heck even the X-Men so he has a history of tangling with superhuman foes. His physical stats are nothing to be schoffed at, his fighting style uniquely developed and his equipment is vairable. But I'm going to start with the two main areas Captain America outclasses Kraven. First of all, I'll start with physical stats. Although Kraven is agile, I think Cap might be able to outmanaveur him in a concrete jungle which is an environment Cap can get a leg up in over Kraven

And there's also his reactions to consider. Though Kraven can dodge gunfire, Cap says he can see it coming in slow motion

So if Kraven turns to his poisons to take down Cap, there's a high chance Cap can dodge them at range fairly handily. Not to mention he can just easily block it with his shield

This means Kraven will have to come up close and up close, Kraven is outmatched in more ways than one. Let's continue with striking power. Cap has some very good striking feats to his name

And there's the steel door one which I unfortunately can't find for now. But suffice to say that, although Kraven has the lifting edge, Cap has better striking feats and that's where it counts. The last stat I'll look at is durability which is something Cap plainly outranks Kraven on. The man jumps from helicopters without any parachutes so it's easy to see he's got the durability edge.

That's my first advantage post on the edges Cap has over Kraven. I suggest we focus on physicals, fighting skills and equipment for this debate with mentality maybe thrown in too. Your move @comicstooge

Are you guys now an official CAV couple?

Didnt you guys do SS vs Cyborg Superman very recently?

Bromance is strong with this one ;)

@killemall: He wanted to do a debate with Kraven and none of the other Cap experts were available to my knowledge. @veshark has several debates of his own and @slimj87d is very busy nowadays. But it's certainly looking that way isn't it? :P

I'll get back to you after I've completed my homework, which will be soon. But, in the mean time...

@lvenger said:

OK I'll make the opening post of what is my first ever street level debate. Luckily for you this isn't my forte. Let's get to it! Firstly, I'll note the environment choice. It's a nice even battleground for these two to fight on. A concrete jungle provides maneuverability to Kraven but it's somewhere Cap is very familiar with. If this were in a jungle, Kraven would have massive edge in utlising the environment to his advantage. Fortunately, that's not something he has here.

Now Kraven is far from an unworthy foe for Captain America to face. He's tangled with Spider-Man, Vermin, Venom, heck even the X-Men so he has a history of tangling with superhuman foes. His physical stats are nothing to be schoffed at, his fighting style uniquely developed and his equipment is vairable. But I'm going to start with the two main areas Captain America outclasses Kraven. First of all, I'll start with physical stats. Although Kraven is agile, I think Cap might be able to outmanaveur him in a concrete jungle which is an environment Cap can get a leg up in over Kraven

While Cap's agility is impressive, Kraven's agility isn't too shabby either.

Allow me to demonstrate:

He's flat out faster and more agile than Daredevil:

In terms of running speed, Kraven is officially, as stated in handbooks, able to run up to 60 miles per hour:

And Kraven hasn't spent years hunting Spiderman across New York for nothing. He's very familiar with the territory and is almost as effective in an urban jungle as he is a tropical jungle.

Not to mention his high level of strategic intelligence and expert tracking ability will help him, from getting outmaneuvered.

And there's also his reactions to consider. Though Kraven can dodge gunfire, Cap says he can see it coming in slow motion

Impressive, though, Cap didn't specifically say the bullets were in "slow motion" per say, just that he can perceive them fast enough to react.

However, despite that, I do see Kraven has the faster of the two:

Here, he reacted to Kaine's attempts to blitz him, despite the fact he was caught off guard and by surprise. This is highly impressive, due to the fact Kaine is Spiderman's equal, if not superior, in terms of physical capability:

And yes, you were quite correct in saying that Kraven can indeed react to gunfire:

He's proven physical superior to Vermin, despite him giving Spider-man some trouble in the past:

Gallery

So if Kraven turns to his poisons to take down Cap, there's a high chance Cap can dodge them at range fairly handily. Not to mention he can just easily block it with his shield

Kraven's poisons aren't limited to blow darts.

His blades are covered in poison (this is also a reaction speed feat for Kraven, being able to tag a pissed and focused Peter):

This means Kraven will have to come up close and up close, Kraven is outmatched in more ways than one. Let's continue with striking power. Cap has some very good striking feats to his name

Kraven does have some impressive striking feats of his own.

Staggering Spiderman (he states the punch can take out a charging Rhino):

Punching the head off a frigging Gorilla:

His punches devastated Flash-Venom's face, despite him in the process of "Vulking" out:

And there's the steel door one which I unfortunately can't find for now. But suffice to say that, although Kraven has the lifting edge, Cap has better striking feats and that's where it counts. The last stat I'll look at is durability which is something Cap plainly outranks Kraven on. The man jumps from helicopters without any parachutes so it's easy to see he's got the durability edge.

Suck it, Ultimate Cap.

Seriously though, durability wise, Kraven is very impressive in the regard, as well:

He took a full punch from a rabid Spiderman, responding with a smirk.

Tanked a blast from Cyclops and was up in moments (Kraven had just hit Jean, Scott wasn't going easy on him):

This was prior to Kraven returning from the dead and gaining a healing factor and immortality. This healing factor allows him to tank otherwise fatal stab wounds to the heart, and not even be slowed down:

He even survived a brutal assault from the Hulk, though it was unclear whether or not he was KO'd:

And by no means do I want to low-ball Steve, but there was an instance in which Flash Thompson as Venom knocked him out cold with a single punch:

All in all, I'd say the advantages between the two aren't so clear cut, perhaps Kraven may edge it out it out in some regards.

Anyway, I'd say this debate is off to a pretty great start and I look forward to more.

@comicstooge said:

@lvenger said:

While Cap's agility is impressive, Kraven's agility isn't too shabby either.

Allow me to demonstrate:

He's flat out faster and more agile than Daredevil:

In terms of running speed, Kraven is officially, as stated in handbooks, able to run up to 60 miles per hour:

And Kraven hasn't spent years hunting Spiderman across New York for nothing. He's very familiar with the territory and is almost as effective in an urban jungle as he is a tropical jungle.

Not to mention his high level of strategic intelligence and expert tracking ability will help him, from getting outmaneuvered.

.

Very nice but as I say, Cap will be more familiar with the environment they're fighting in than Kraven in terms of being able to maneuver through the city along with there being few places Kraven can set up shop to tag him with his poisons at range. Not to mention that there are loads of buildings and walls Cap can rebound his shield off. But we''ll cover that in the equipment session. As for the agility feats, very nice but don't forget that Steve is no slouch in that department either as I've proven. Plus if we're talking strategic intelligence, Steve has been through a world war and led the Avengers many times so it's safe to say he has Kraven's number in the strategic intelligence department. And guess who else has been clocked on panel at running at 60 mph?

@comicstooge said:

Impressive, though, Cap didn't specifically say the bullets were in "slow motion" per say, just that he can perceive them fast enough to react.

However, despite that, I do see Kraven has the faster of the two:

Here, he reacted to Kaine's attempts to blitz him, despite the fact he was caught off guard and by surprise. This is highly impressive, due to the fact Kaine is Spiderman's equal, if not superior, in terms of physical capability:

And yes, you were quite correct in saying that Kraven can indeed react to gunfire:

He's proven physical superior to Vermin, despite him giving Spider-man some trouble in the past:

Gallery

I've posted him dodging an actual bullet earlier and can post more if you want. Hell, there's one of him reacting to multiple bullets whilst falling from the helicarrier if you want that for speed and reactions as a feat.

As for the Kaine feat, yes that's good but Cap has reacted to Spider-Man's attacks before too if you want to play it that way

Not to mention his Civil War fight with him. As for Vermin, he hasn't had that many showings so his capabilities are somewhat sketchy.

@comicstooge said:

Kraven does have some impressive striking feats of his own.

Staggering Spiderman (he states the punch can take out a charging Rhino):

Punching the head off a frigging Gorilla:

His punches devastated Flash-Venom's face, despite him in the process of "Vulking" out:

The first one is merely a statement which is typical of Kraven to boast about but it's credible that it hurt Spider-Man. The second one though is a bit out of context. I have that issue from the Grim Hunt and Kraven is wandering through his manor all pi$$ed that he can't beat Spider-Man and takes it out on his collection of stuffed animals. The scan you've posted is only one of Kraven punching off a stuffed gorilla's head which I can safely assert would be much less durable than a proper gorilla's head. And the third is him beating a worn down Venom that he'd wittled down earlier through other means than via direct combat with a physically superior version of Spider-Man. So all in all, I think I've dealt with the striking feats of Kraven's whilst showing Cap's feats of flooring Spider-Man, knocking down a steel door and punishing Wolverine are most impressive showings for Cap

@comicstooge said:

Suck it, Ultimate Cap.

Seriously though, durability wise, Kraven is very impressive in the regard, as well:

He took a full punch from a rabid Spiderman, responding with a smirk.

Tanked a blast from Cyclops and was up in moments (Kraven had just hit Jean, Scott wasn't going easy on him):

This was prior to Kraven returning from the dead and gaining a healing factor and immortality. This healing factor allows him to tank otherwise fatal stab wounds to the heart, and not even be slowed down:

He even survived a brutal assault from the Hulk, though it was unclear whether or not he was KO'd:

And by no means do I want to low-ball Steve, but there was an instance in which Flash Thompson as Venom knocked him out cold with a single punch:

All in all, I'd say the advantages between the two aren't so clear cut, perhaps Kraven may edge it out it out in some regards.

Anyway, I'd say this debate is off to a pretty great start and I look forward to more.

So with the first one, you're forgetting the oozing of blood Peter drew from Kraven in that blow. I'm aware Spidey's never hit Cap like that but Taskmaster has tanked a blow from a pi$$ed Peter when Spidey thought he'd kidnapped MJ

and he's not on the physical level Cap is at as the pinnacle of potential that humanity can one day reach. The healing factor's all well and good but need I remind you that Cap has KOed healing opponents such as Wolverine before? The HF won't stop Kraven being KOed as is the case for many healers in the 616 universe. And seriously, you're using that Hulk feat for your case? As many Hulk fans and experts on here will tell you, not only was Aaron's writing poor but his Hulk had some serious PIS moments in terms of feats in that series. The Hulk there was much weaker than Hulk normally is and realistically, Kraven wouldn't last 10 seconds against the Hulk in a straight out fight. And whilst it may not be lowballing, there's no shame in Cap being one shotted by a 20-25 tonner like Venom in the slightest. Let me know when Kraven survives being thrown from an exploding building any time soon as a good showing for his durability

So all in all, Kraven may take the physical strength trophy but in terms of reactions, speed and striking power, I think Cap has some distinct edges over Kraven in that regard.

@lvenger said:

Very nice but as I say, Cap will be more familiar with the environment they're fighting in than Kraven in terms of being able to maneuver through the city along with there being few places Kraven can set up shop to tag him with his poisons at range. Not to mention that there are loads of buildings and walls Cap can rebound his shield off. But we''ll cover that in the equipment session. As for the agility feats, very nice but don't forget that Steve is no slouch in that department either as I've proven. Plus if we're talking strategic intelligence, Steve has been through a world war and led the Avengers many times so it's safe to say he has Kraven's number in the strategic intelligence department. And guess who else has been clocked on panel at running at 60 mph?

True, while Cap's strategy is superior, Kraven is no idiot in comparison. He's strategically out-maneuvered Spiderman multiple times, is an expert tracker and has decades upon decades of experience himself. He's smart enough not to fall into any traps. In terms of running speed, they do seem equal, though.

@lvenger said:

@I've posted him dodging an actual bullet earlier and can post more if you want. Hell, there's one of him reacting to multiple bullets whilst falling from the helicarrier if you want that for speed and reactions as a feat.

As for the Kaine feat, yes that's good but Cap has reacted to Spider-Man's attacks before too if you want to play it that way

Those are some solid feat's for Cap, though, besides the bullet-reaction time, thing, Kraven has similar.

How about defeating and out-reacting Tigra?

He's reacted at fast speeds to catch a spear (I know, not on Cap's level, but still impressive):

Gallery

And has indeed similarly impressed Spiderman with his speed

I would post the rest of that fight, however, it applies to the weapons part of the argument.

He's even avoided Storm's lightning:

@lvenger said:

Kraven does have some impressive striking feats of his own.

Staggering Spiderman (he states the punch can take out a charging Rhino):

Punching the head off a frigging Gorilla:

His punches devastated Flash-Venom's face, despite him in the process of "Vulking" out:

The first one is merely a statement which is typical of Kraven to boast about but it's credible that it hurt Spider-Man. The second one though is a bit out of context. I have that issue from the Grim Hunt and Kraven is wandering through his manor all pi$$ed that he can't beat Spider-Man and takes it out on his collection of stuffed animals. The scan you've posted is only one of Kraven punching off a stuffed gorilla's head which I can safely assert would be much less durable than a proper gorilla's head. And the third is him beating a worn down Venom that he'd wittled down earlier through other means than via direct combat with a physically superior version of Spider-Man. So all in all, I think I've dealt with the striking feats of Kraven's whilst showing Cap's feats of flooring Spider-Man, knocking down a steel door and punishing Wolverine are most impressive showings for Cap

Thank you for correcting me on the animal scans.

Even if Kraven can't necessarily hit with the same force Cap has, he does like his nerve strikes, which have proven highly effective:

And even if he can't match his striking power, Kraven is not above grabbing and grappling opponents (as shown in those Spiderman scans), and outside of possibly striking power, Kraven has Cap outmatched in that regard.

In fact, Kraven is so strong Spidey had to resort to moving out of the way:

Look at what he did to his mutated son:

And he's torn Spiderman's shoulder from it's socket:

Getting up close and person, in a fist fight with Kraven is a good way for Cap to get some limbs disabled/broken.

@lvenger said:

So with the first one, you're forgetting the oozing of blood Peter drew from Kraven in that blow. I'm aware Spidey's never hit Cap like that but Taskmaster has tanked a blow from a pi$$ed Peter when Spidey thought he'd kidnapped MJ

and he's not on the physical level Cap is at as the pinnacle of potential that humanity can one day reach. The healing factor's all well and good but need I remind you that Cap has KOed healing opponents such as Wolverine before? The HF won't stop Kraven being KOed as is the case for many healers in the 616 universe. And seriously, you're using that Hulk feat for your case? As many Hulk fans and experts on here will tell you, not only was Aaron's writing poor but his Hulk had some serious PIS moments in terms of feats in that series. The Hulk there was much weaker than Hulk normally is and realistically, Kraven wouldn't last 10 seconds against the Hulk in a straight out fight. And whilst it may not be lowballing, there's no shame in Cap being one shotted by a 20-25 tonner like Venom in the slightest. Let me know when Kraven survives being thrown from an exploding building any time soon as a good showing for his durability

True, Kraven was bleeding, but considering that was a fully powered hit from a practically blood lusted Spiderman and all it did was break his nose, I'd still consider that highly impressive . And for the record, losing blood means nothing to Kraven now.

And in regards to the Taskmaster thing, Spiderman still wanted info from Taskmaster so it wouldn't have been one of his strongest hits (and in terms of durability, Taskmaster is an average dude as far as Spidey's concerned). In comparison, Peter basically can't afford to hold back much, against Kraven.

I'm aware healing factors don't prevent KO's, just pointing out that Kraven has it and it could play a factor.

In terms of durability, Kraven has consistently taken hits from Spiderman level opponents, so there's that.

Though, even if Kraven's striking ability isn't enough to put Cap down for the count, his weapons can...

Now onto weapons.

Here is the rest of those Spiderman fight scans I was referring to:

Kraven has gauntlets that can release poison darts, capable of causing hallucinations and unconsciousness to opponents. If Kraven can use these against Cap, in the same manner as he did Spiderman, they'll grant him the victory or at the very least be a game changer.

Likewise, Kraven covers his bladed weapons in poison. How strong is this poison, you ask?

Strong enough to overcome the Venom symbiote's poison resistance.

Even if he scratched Cap with one of his blades, as he has an angry and focused Spiderman, it could weaken Cap significantly.

@comicstooge said:

Those are some solid feat's for Cap, though, besides the bullet-reaction time, thing, Kraven has similar.

How about defeating and out-reacting Tigra?

He's reacted at fast speeds to catch a spear (I know, not on Cap's level, but still impressive):

Gallery

And has indeed similarly impressed Spiderman with his speed

I would post the rest of that fight, however, it applies to the weapons part of the argument.

He's even avoided Storm's lightning:

What are Tigra's reaction feats if you don't mind my asking? How good is she at combat speed and reactions? Spider-Man's complimented Cap's speed before too and has dodged lightning too

@comicstooge said:

Thank you for correcting me on the animal scans.

Even if Kraven can't necessarily hit with the same force Cap has, he does like his nerve strikes, which have proven highly effective:

And even if he can't match his striking power, Kraven is not above grabbing and grappling opponents (as shown in those Spiderman scans), and outside of possibly striking power, Kraven has Cap outmatched in that regard.

In fact, Kraven is so strong Spidey had to resort to moving out of the way:

Look at what he did to his mutated son:

And he's torn Spiderman's shoulder from it's socket:

Getting up close and person, in a fist fight with Kraven is a good way for Cap to get some limbs disabled/broken.

Kraven's not the only one who's used nerve strikes in combat before. Cap has too and can employ them to similar effect as well as realise what Kraven is doing and avoid being on the receiving end of them

As for Kraven's 'playing dirty' tactics, they are a real concern though another scan you had notes Kraven's desire for honour and dignity so those could come into play. And where striking power is concerned, Cap has this over Kraven by a mile. Even martial arts master Iron Fist notes the power and speed of Cap's technique

Now for Kraven's tendency for grabbing and holds. A very impressive technique but Cap has gotten out of such holds before

Here he flips Starfox who notes that he's 50 times stronger than Cap is

So I imagine you can see that Kraven's grabbing tactic might not work out as a means to take Cap down

True, Kraven was bleeding, but considering that was a fully powered hit from a practically blood lusted Spiderman and all it did was break his nose, I'd still consider that highly impressive . And for the record, losing blood means nothing to Kraven now.

And in regards to the Taskmaster thing, Spiderman still wanted info from Taskmaster so it wouldn't have been one of his strongest hits (and in terms of durability, Taskmaster is an average dude as far as Spidey's concerned). In comparison, Peter basically can't afford to hold back much, against Kraven.

I'm aware healing factors don't prevent KO's, just pointing out that Kraven has it and it could play a factor.

In terms of durability, Kraven has consistently taken hits from Spiderman level opponents, so there's that.

Though, even if Kraven's striking ability isn't enough to put Cap down for the count, his weapons can...

True but he can't afford to hold back against Taskmaster either seeing how the man can use any martial arts style he's remembered on him, something Kraven can't do. And Cap's taken hits from Spider-Man level characters too amongst much stronger foes that he faces on a regular basis. I see you want to move onto weapons next so I'll end it here for physical stats. I'll have my second response up this afternoon British time.

@comicstooge said:

Now onto weapons.

Here is the rest of those Spiderman fight scans I was referring to:

Kraven has gauntlets that can release poison darts, capable of causing hallucinations and unconsciousness to opponents. If Kraven can use these against Cap, in the same manner as he did Spiderman, they'll grant him the victory or at the very least be a game changer.

Impressive and here I must concede that Kraven has more versatile weapons than Cap. However, you forget Cap's main weapon, his shield and his impressive feats with it. He can block the darts coming from a mile away and unlike in the Spider-Man scan you show, the close up darts won't work either if Cap blocks them with his shield. Steve isn't as gullible as Peter to fall for a simple trick like that. Seeing that I've shown him effortlessly block bullets with his shield, I posit that Cap won't fall for a trick like that. Besides he can dodge bullets at point blank range

And from sharpshooter Bucky no less

I'll also use this as an accuracy with shield feat for Steve that you'll see coming up below

@comicstooge said:

Likewise, Kraven covers his bladed weapons in poison. How strong is this poison, you ask?

Strong enough to overcome the Venom symbiote's poison resistance.

Even if he scratched Cap with one of his blades, as he has an angry and focused Spiderman, it could weaken Cap significantly.

I guess I have to make the same defense above. Spider-Man doesn't have the defensive capabilities that Cap has show such as a vibranium shield that can block Kraven's poisoned weapons and deliver a sharp blow to boot once Kraven's attack has been blocked. Now for my environmental advantage. Since you've chosen an urban battleground, there'll be plenty of places for Cap to throw his rebounding laws of physics defining shield around to nail Kraven with at range. How good is he with the shield you ask?

Nails Cable in mid air and Cable noting that Cap used his trajectory to avoid casualties

And one of my favourite Cap feats, using his shield to flick a lighter switch

And how hard/fast/far can he throw it?

Throws the shield to free Falcon from a missile way up in the air

Downs a helicopter by severing its rotor

So, it is evident that with the multitude of walls and areas Cap can rebound his shield off, Kraven will be kept off his guard trying to dodge it or getting hit by it and being unable to use his poisons. What's more, Kraven will be left open to an assault by the better striker (and more skilled though this should be discussed later) Captain America. A healthy dose of this and Kraven can be KOed.

Tigra is capable of avoiding a shot from Hawkeye, so she isn't slow.

@lvenger said:

Kraven's not the only one who's used nerve strikes in combat before. Cap has too and can employ them to similar effect as well as realise what Kraven is doing and avoid being on the receiving end of them

Interesting. However, Cap's nerve strikes might not be effective against Kraven, due to his healing factor.

As for Kraven's 'playing dirty' tactics, they are a real concern though another scan you had notes Kraven's desire for honour and dignity so those could come into play. And where striking power is concerned, Cap has this over Kraven by a mile. Even martial arts master Iron Fist notes the power and speed of Cap's technique

Now for Kraven's tendency for grabbing and holds. A very impressive technique but Cap has gotten out of such holds before

Here he flips Starfox who notes that he's 50 times stronger than Cap is

Kraven has shown to use dirty tactics against characters he doesn't believe he can beat, in order to gain the upper hand. Examples of this include his second fight against Tigra and his numerous battles against Spiderman. It would not be a stretch for him to use these dirty tactics against Cap, in the event he feels he would lose.

And what feats does Starfox have that suggest his skill and proficiency with these holds are superior to Kraven's?

Kraven's son Vladimir commented on Kraven's great skill:

It seems to me like the only reason Cap escaped that hold was because Starfox had no clue how to apply it. The same won't happen with Kraven, who's raw physical strength exceeds Steve's and his skill with these holds will prevent Cap from escaping.

A full powered hit from Spiderman would likely turn Taskmaster's face into jelly, given he is a relatively normal man in terms of durability. It's a safe bet Spiderman wasn't giving the punch all he had.

While those darts won't work as long as Cap has his shield up, Kraven has ways of lowering Cap's defenses, such as poison gas from his vest:

True, I guess Cap could his breath just as Ka-Zar did, but as clearly shown in the scan, the gas did stun him. The only reason Kraven didn't follow through with that was because, let's be honest, it's the classic "villain monologues while hero recovers" trope and it wouldn't happen in a battle such as this. Cap being stunned by gas is the perfect distraction Kraven needs to land a hit or two with his trusty poison knives, or give Cap a chest full of poison darts.

Kraven can also use one of his nets to slow Rogers down. These nets are strong enough to hold Spiderman:

Or use a bolas (though this would likely fail, it's worth noting Kraven still possesses them).

@lvenger said:

I guess I have to make the same defense above. Spider-Man doesn't have the defensive capabilities that Cap has show such as a vibranium shield that can block Kraven's poisoned weapons and deliver a sharp blow to boot once Kraven's attack has been blocked. Now for my environmental advantage. Since you've chosen an urban battleground, there'll be plenty of places for Cap to throw his rebounding laws of physics defining shield around to nail Kraven with at range. How good is he with the shield you ask?

Nails Cable in mid air and Cable noting that Cap used his trajectory to avoid casualties

And one of my favourite Cap feats, using his shield to flick a lighter switch

And how hard/fast/far can he throw it?

Throws the shield to free Falcon from a missile way up in the air

Downs a helicopter by severing its rotor

So, it is evident that with the multitude of walls and areas Cap can rebound his shield off, Kraven will be kept off his guard trying to dodge it or getting hit by it and being unable to use his poisons. What's more, Kraven will be left open to an assault by the better striker (and more skilled though this should be discussed later) Captain America. A healthy dose of this and Kraven can be KOed.

Opponents who have similar reflexes to Kraven's have been shown capable of grabbing the shield in mid-throw:

It wouldn't be too far fetched to say that Kraven could do something similar, or use one of his projectiles to intercept the trajectory of the shield mid-throw.

@comicstooge: Very nice reply. I'll have to get back to you on this since I'm quite drained from today's work. But tomorrow will see my reply for certain!

That's cool, dude. I look forward to your retort.

@comicstooge said: Kraven has shown to use dirty tactics against characters he doesn't believe he can beat, in order to gain the upper hand. Examples of this include his second fight against Tigra and his numerous battles against Spiderman. It would not be a stretch for him to use these dirty tactics against Cap, in the event he feels he would lose.

And what feats does Starfox have that suggest his skill and proficiency with these holds are superior to Kraven's?

Kraven's son Vladimir commented on Kraven's great skill:

It seems to me like the only reason Cap escaped that hold was because Starfox had no clue how to apply it. The same won't happen with Kraven, who's raw physical strength exceeds Steve's and his skill with these holds will prevent Cap from escaping.

That's fair enough but you have set one of the conditions of the battle being morals off. So it's just as likely that Cap will be willing to perform dirty and lethal tactics in this fight that can grant him the win. Evidently, Kraven is more likely to do them but you've opened the gateway for a more vicious Cap in this fight. And morals on, he can be a fearsome opponent already. As for the grab comment, it's hard for me to reply to that without a proper feat of Steve escaping such a hold. But I've shown Cap's strength to be very impressive and his skill will be defended later on in our debate. So, suffice to say, Cap will know a lot about holds and be able to get out of even Kraven's holds. Not to mention that he could have thrown his shield before Kraven grabs him in a way that it will hit Kraven easily since he won't be able to grab it or dodge it.

True but Taskmaster was still on the receiving end of a quite angry Spider-Man punch. And one of Spidey's more lax punches is clearly dozens of times more powerful than a mere human punch. And Taskmaster is still less durable than Cap's greater than peak human stats so it's not out of the question for Steve to endure Spider-Man's attacks as well as Kraven has done in their fights.

@comicstooge said:

While those darts won't work as long as Cap has his shield up, Kraven has ways of lowering Cap's defenses, such as poison gas from his vest:

True, I guess Cap could his breath just as Ka-Zar did, but as clearly shown in the scan, the gas did stun him. The only reason Kraven didn't follow through with that was because, let's be honest, it's the classic "villain monologues while hero recovers" trope and it wouldn't happen in a battle such as this. Cap being stunned by gas is the perfect distraction Kraven needs to land a hit or two with his trusty poison knives, or give Cap a chest full of poison darts.

You defeat your own point for me mate. Cap is more than capable of holding his breath for an extended time then clobbering Kraven as Ka-Zar does in your scan. He's just as likely to leap out the way too. Now if Kraven were using the laser nipples, THEN Cap would have a problem :P

@comicstooge said:

Kraven can also use one of his nets to slow Rogers down. These nets are strong enough to hold Spiderman:

Or use a bolas (though this would likely fail, it's worth noting Kraven still possesses them).

Spider-Man had been drugged beforehand by Kraven at range so that made his reflexes all sluggish. Kraven needs to poison Cap first to get him with a net and I've already shown my feats for Cap's reflexes and reactions.

@comicstooge said:

Opponents who have similar reflexes to Kraven's have been shown capable of grabbing the shield in mid-throw:

It wouldn't be too far fetched to say that Kraven could do something similar, or use one of his projectiles to intercept the trajectory of the shield mid-throw.

Hawkeye has exceptional hand-eye coordination along with excellent reflexes so he's bound to be able to catch Cap's shield mid flight. He's also one of the few people who can throw the shield in a manner nearly as well as Steve. And Gambit is...someone whose feats I'm not familiar with due to my disdain for the X-Men lol. But he's someone with good reactions too I assume. So I admit Kraven has a chance of snagging the shield or deflecting it. But it's a way to keep him off balance too. Has Kraven shown the ability to perform such feats?

And shall we move onto fighting skills next or is there more on weapons you want to cover?

@lvenger I've come down with Pneumonia and I'm not allowed to be on the computer other than to do assignments. Would you mind if I got back to you tomorrow, or the next day?

@comicstooge: Of course, that's not a problem. Rest up on that pneumonia mate, it can be a real pain if you don't deal with it.

@lvenger said:

@comicstooge said: Kraven has shown to use dirty tactics against characters he doesn't believe he can beat, in order to gain the upper hand. Examples of this include his second fight against Tigra and his numerous battles against Spiderman. It would not be a stretch for him to use these dirty tactics against Cap, in the event he feels he would lose.

And what feats does Starfox have that suggest his skill and proficiency with these holds are superior to Kraven's?

Kraven's son Vladimir commented on Kraven's great skill:

It seems to me like the only reason Cap escaped that hold was because Starfox had no clue how to apply it. The same won't happen with Kraven, who's raw physical strength exceeds Steve's and his skill with these holds will prevent Cap from escaping.

That's fair enough but you have set one of the conditions of the battle being morals off. So it's just as likely that Cap will be willing to perform dirty and lethal tactics in this fight that can grant him the win. Evidently, Kraven is more likely to do them but you've opened the gateway for a more vicious Cap in this fight. And morals on, he can be a fearsome opponent already. As for the grab comment, it's hard for me to reply to that without a proper feat of Steve escaping such a hold. But I've shown Cap's strength to be very impressive and his skill will be defended later on in our debate. So, suffice to say, Cap will know a lot about holds and be able to get out of even Kraven's holds. Not to mention that he could have thrown his shield before Kraven grabs him in a way that it will hit Kraven easily since he won't be able to grab it or dodge it.

@comicstooge said:

A full powered hit from Spiderman would likely turn Taskmaster's face into jelly, given he is a relatively normal man in terms of durability. It's a safe bet Spiderman wasn't giving the punch all he had.

True but Taskmaster was still on the receiving end of a quite angry Spider-Man punch. And one of Spidey's more lax punches is clearly dozens of times more powerful than a mere human punch. And Taskmaster is still less durable than Cap's greater than peak human stats so it's not out of the question for Steve to endure Spider-Man's attacks as well as Kraven has done in their fights.

@comicstooge said:

While those darts won't work as long as Cap has his shield up, Kraven has ways of lowering Cap's defenses, such as poison gas from his vest:

True, I guess Cap could his breath just as Ka-Zar did, but as clearly shown in the scan, the gas did stun him. The only reason Kraven didn't follow through with that was because, let's be honest, it's the classic "villain monologues while hero recovers" trope and it wouldn't happen in a battle such as this. Cap being stunned by gas is the perfect distraction Kraven needs to land a hit or two with his trusty poison knives, or give Cap a chest full of poison darts.

You defeat your own point for me mate. Cap is more than capable of holding his breath for an extended time then clobbering Kraven as Ka-Zar does in your scan. He's just as likely to leap out the way too. Now if Kraven were using the laser nipples, THEN Cap would have a problem :P

@comicstooge said:

Kraven can also use one of his nets to slow Rogers down. These nets are strong enough to hold Spiderman:

Or use a bolas (though this would likely fail, it's worth noting Kraven still possesses them).

Spider-Man had been drugged beforehand by Kraven at range so that made his reflexes all sluggish. Kraven needs to poison Cap first to get him with a net and I've already shown my feats for Cap's reflexes and reactions.

@comicstooge said:

Opponents who have similar reflexes to Kraven's have been shown capable of grabbing the shield in mid-throw:

It wouldn't be too far fetched to say that Kraven could do something similar, or use one of his projectiles to intercept the trajectory of the shield mid-throw.

Hawkeye has exceptional hand-eye coordination along with excellent reflexes so he's bound to be able to catch Cap's shield mid flight. He's also one of the few people who can throw the shield in a manner nearly as well as Steve. And Gambit is...someone whose feats I'm not familiar with due to my disdain for the X-Men lol. But he's someone with good reactions too I assume. So I admit Kraven has a chance of snagging the shield or deflecting it. But it's a way to keep him off balance too. Has Kraven shown the ability to perform such feats?

And shall we move onto fighting skills next or is there more on weapons you want to cover?

I think that's about it for weapons, skill it is then?

@comicstooge: I concur. But I'm going on holiday tomorrow. That's the bad news. The good news is that there should be wi fi there so I should be able to finish the debate. Nonetheless, would you mind if I made the first post on Cap's skill whilst I have proper access to the Internet and scans and all that? That way, even if I can't finish the debate, I'll have made my case for Cap's skill level.

Oh and you're winning on votes by the way. 56% to you, 44% to me.

OK I'm going to start on my skill post for Captain America, Here, I definitely feel that Cap has a markedly distinct and obvious edge over Kraven. The physicals advantage has had no clear victor so far in our debate IMO and the variety of equipment gives Kraven the edge. But here, Cap has a definite one up over Kraven in terms of skill. I'll start by pointing out that Cap started training before taking the experiment that would make him a super soldier

He says to Zemo that he'd mastered every form of combat known to man (though he could be talking about 1940s styles and it is just a statement I admit)

He's outmatched Wolverine in H2H combat before. Wolverine's healing factor and superhuman stats have been what keep Logan in the fight

Gallery

And Logan has centuries worth of fighting experience under his belt. Now there are two well known times when Cap has been outmatched. One is against Iron Fist and the other is against Black Panther. I'll post a link to the scans of Panther owning Cap but in most, if not all of their fights, there's some mitigating factor that prevents them having a proper fight whether that is the Panther Spirit holding T'Challa back in one instance allowing Cap to beat him or in these scans, Steve wanting to talk to T'Challa and it not being a real fight: http://lounge.moviecodec.com/vs-forum/black-panther-updated-vs-spider-manupgraded-109999/5

In the case of this Iron Fist fight I'm about to post, Iron Fist was worn out after fighting the Wrecking Crew and did beat Cap in the end whilst holding back. BUT Cap did give Iron Fist a damn good fight and Danny only beat him by using the Iron Fist technique, which he'd used twice on the same day already. Danny also constantly praises Cap's striking power, speed and technique in his fight.

Gallery

The reason why I focus on Cap's fights against martial artists he's lost against is because they're such skilled combatants, practically on Batman's level of skill. For Cap to give these guys a good fight is something Kraven can only dream of. Panther and Danny would definitely massacre Kraven in the fighting skills department IMO. Oh and he's done well against Taskmaster who's copied his moves along with a great deal of other fighters in the Marvel universe. And he's made Batroc look like a chump when, to most other people, Batroc is an incredibly skilled combatant.

Now there's something else I want to focus on. Cap's skill has been commendable enough to win him battles without the super solider serum. There's an instance where he beats Crossbones who's been trained by Taskmaster without the Super Soldier Serum. But he is peak human in that fight. I can't post the whole fight as I can't find it but here's the end result of that fight just so you know I'm not bluffing :P

Finally, there was a storyline where Cap was reduced to his prior physical condition totally. As a weakling once again, Cap goes up against some more goons. I posted a scan of him training before becoming a Super Soldier but here, Cap takes out some goons with pure skill and wits alone

Afterwards, he undergoes the Super Soldier process and becomes... super again lol. But him beating up fodder goons isn't too special. Here though, Cap shows off why he is one of the best trained combat fighters in the world without the SS serum.

Sorry this is a bit long but I want plenty of material on here in case I don't fully reply to your points. Your turn @comicstooge

While those darts won't work as long as Cap has his shield up, Kraven has ways of lowering Cap's defenses, such as poison gas from his vest:

True, I guess Cap could his breath just as Ka-Zar did, but as clearly shown in the scan, the gas did stun him. The only reason Kraven didn't follow through with that was because, let's be honest, it's the classic "villain monologues while hero recovers" trope and it wouldn't happen in a battle such as this. Cap being stunned by gas is the perfect distraction Kraven needs to land a hit or two with his trusty poison knives, or give Cap a chest full of poison darts.

You defeat your own point for me mate. Cap is more than capable of holding his breath for an extended time then clobbering Kraven as Ka-Zar does in your scan. He's just as likely to leap out the way too. Now if Kraven were using the laser nipples, THEN Cap would have a problem :P

Ah, but as seen in the second scan, the gas still stunned Ka-Zar, presumably burning his senses. Even if the gas doesn't KO Cap, it should give Kraven the opening he needs.

He's caught fast moving projectiles before, yes:

So I'd say it's not impossible for him to catch the shield.

@lvenger said:

OK I'm going to start on my skill post for Captain America, Here, I definitely feel that Cap has a markedly distinct and obvious edge over Kraven. The physicals advantage has had no clear victor so far in our debate IMO and the variety of equipment gives Kraven the edge. But here, Cap has a definite one up over Kraven in terms of skill. I'll start by pointing out that Cap started training before taking the experiment that would make him a super soldier

He says to Zemo that he'd mastered every form of combat known to man (though he could be talking about 1940s styles and it is just a statement I admit)

He's outmatched Wolverine in H2H combat before. Wolverine's healing factor and superhuman stats have been what keep Logan in the fight

Gallery

And Logan has centuries worth of fighting experience under his belt. Now there are two well known times when Cap has been outmatched. One is against Iron Fist and the other is against Black Panther. I'll post a link to the scans of Panther owning Cap but in most, if not all of their fights, there's some mitigating factor that prevents them having a proper fight whether that is the Panther Spirit holding T'Challa back in one instance allowing Cap to beat him or in these scans, Steve wanting to talk to T'Challa and it not being a real fight: http://lounge.moviecodec.com/vs-forum/black-panther-updated-vs-spider-manupgraded-109999/5

In the case of this Iron Fist fight I'm about to post, Iron Fist was worn out after fighting the Wrecking Crew and did beat Cap in the end whilst holding back. BUT Cap did give Iron Fist a damn good fight and Danny only beat him by using the Iron Fist technique, which he'd used twice on the same day already. Danny also constantly praises Cap's striking power, speed and technique in his fight.

Gallery

The reason why I focus on Cap's fights against martial artists he's lost against is because they're such skilled combatants, practically on Batman's level of skill. For Cap to give these guys a good fight is something Kraven can only dream of. Panther and Danny would definitely massacre Kraven in the fighting skills department IMO. Oh and he's done well against Taskmaster who's copied his moves along with a great deal of other fighters in the Marvel universe. And he's made Batroc look like a chump when, to most other people, Batroc is an incredibly skilled combatant.

Now there's something else I want to focus on. Cap's skill has been commendable enough to win him battles without the super solider serum. There's an instance where he beats Crossbones who's been trained by Taskmaster without the Super Soldier Serum. But he is peak human in that fight. I can't post the whole fight as I can't find it but here's the end result of that fight just so you know I'm not bluffing :P

Finally, there was a storyline where Cap was reduced to his prior physical condition totally. As a weakling once again, Cap goes up against some more goons. I posted a scan of him training before becoming a Super Soldier but here, Cap takes out some goons with pure skill and wits alone

Afterwards, he undergoes the Super Soldier process and becomes... super again lol. But him beating up fodder goons isn't too special. Here though, Cap shows off why he is one of the best trained combat fighters in the world without the SS serum.

Sorry this is a bit long but I want plenty of material on here in case I don't fully reply to your points. Your turn @comicstooge

That's all good.

While we can agree he isn't as skilled as Steve Rogers, Kraven isn't without skill himself:

He's officially listed as a 6 out of 7 on Marvel's grid of fighting skill, indicating he is a master of multiple forms of combat.

I know it's probably in bad taste to reuse scans, however Kraven's son acknowledges his father's great skill:

Along with his frequent employment of nerve strikes against Spiderman, Beast, Tigra and various others (as shown in this thread), his decades of experience and so forth, I think it's obvious Cap's skill alone cannot win him the day. A combination of strength and skill on Kraven's part allows him to knock out a charging Rhino with a punch, as well as knock out a Gorilla (via nerve cluster):

And true, while I guess you could brush this off as nothing but hyperbole...but you know who doesn't consider remarks about Kraven's skill hyperbole?

Spiderman.

So, while Kraven isn't Cap's equal in skill, he does possess enough skill and knowledge to ensure Cap can't rely solely on his fighting ability, much like how Kraven cannot rely solely on his gear to grant himself the win.

Alright, should we make out closing statements on why we think our chosen character wins @lvenger and then get to voting (even if it's already began, we can start it officially)? Or would you like to make one more rebuttal?

@comicstooge: I still have over an hour before packing is finished and I go on holiday. I think I can make one more rebuttal and my closing statement if you don't mind :P

@comicstooge said:

That's all good.

While we can agree he isn't as skilled as Steve Rogers, Kraven isn't without skill himself:

He's officially listed as a 6 out of 7 on Marvel's grid of fighting skill, indicating he is a master of multiple forms of combat.

Of course not. Kraven is a very skilled fighter and his prowess in combat has been noted many times before in his Marvel comics history. He's more than capable of giving Cap a good fight. But beating him in hand to hand combat? It's highly unlikely that Kraven can surpass Cap in this department as you yourself have admitted and as my scans in my last post hopefully prove. Even with the 6 rating on the Marvel grid, those aren't set in stone.

@comicstooge said:

I know it's probably in bad taste to reuse scans, however Kraven's son acknowledges his father's great skill:

If it's teacher feats you're looking for, Cap has taught martial arts skills to many Avengers before. For instance, She Hulk uses Cap's training to beat the much stronger Abomination (though this has been chalked up to PIS by some) and he's taught Bucky plenty of moves too and Bucky is one fine H2H combatant.

@comicstooge said:

Along with his frequent employment of nerve strikes against Spiderman, Beast, Tigra and various others (as shown in this thread), his decades of experience and so forth, I think it's obvious Cap's skill alone cannot win him the day. A combination of strength and skill on Kraven's part allows him to knock out a charging Rhino with a punch, as well as knock out a Gorilla (via nerve cluster):

And true, while I guess you could brush this off as nothing but hyperbole...but you know who doesn't consider remarks about Kraven's skill hyperbole?

Spiderman.

So, while Kraven isn't Cap's equal in skill, he does possess enough skill and knowledge to ensure Cap can't rely solely on his fighting ability, much like how Kraven cannot rely solely on his gear to grant himself the win.

I figured you'd come back to the nerve strikes coupled with Kraven's strength point again. As I said before, Cap has extensive knowledge of nerve strikes too so will know what trick Kraven is pulling. Not to mention his skill will mean that he can block or dodge Kraven's nerve attacks. And his shield is a formidable defensive tool too. A tad more limited in its functions than Kraven's gear but able to block nerve strikes for certain. Cap's shield is an integral part of his fighting style and coupled with his skill and striking power, it's more than a match for Kraven's nerve cluster strikes. Oh and I finally have the feat of Cap busting down a steel door. This is more than enough proof to show the capabilities of Cap's striking power

Now for my closing statement. The reasons why I think Captain America stands more than a good chance of beating Kraven the Hunter are as follows. The physical stats area has proven to be closer than I thought though I still hold that Cap's reactions and striking power will make the difference in him being able to dodge Kraven's potentially deadly poisonous weapons and land a deadly counterattack in his place. Cap can see bullets coming in slow motion and dance through gunfire with ease. And as for striking power, he's knocked superhuman opponents like Spider-Man, Wolverine and Beast for a loop. So, in that regard, I think Cap is more durable and can take Kraven's shots along with dishing them out too.

The shield is also an integral part of Cap's arsenal and combat style. Cap uses the shield in combat all the time and it's a particularly useful tool defensively (meaning he can block Kraven's poisoned weapons) and offensively (a shield smash to the face or a disorientating shield throw) Though Kraven has a chance to catch it and disarm Cap, Steve will be more than willing to avoid Kraven's other attacks and retrieve his shield at all costs, even if he has to harm Kraven badly to do it since morals are off here.

Finally, the biggest advantage Cap has is his fighting skills. He's considered one of the best combatants in the Marvel Universe, has outmatched the centuries worth of fighting experience Wolverine on skill alone, has given Iron Fist and Black Panther very close fights and has defeated foes without the Super Soldier serum on skill alone. Couple that with his physique and physical stats and Kraven is facing a foe who outmatches him in some physical areas as well as being a vastly more skilled H2H fighter. Steve's fighting style is going to play a big part in him beating Kraven as up close, Kraven's going to find that fighting a morals off Steve is a whole different game.

Well I've made my closing statement. Your turn @comicstooge. Best of luck to you in the voting though it seems you're winning 56% already since you've made this a poll lol.

Alright, for my closing statement I'll say this:

Kraven can defeat Cap, due to Kraven's greater raw physical strength, durability, comparable reaction time (consistently tagging Spiderman level characters) and his greater variety of gear.

Cap, while a superior fighter, only has one weapon, his shield. Kraven is a smart man, he'd know he neutralize this weapon, in the same way Gambit or Hawkeye would, by catching it mid-throw, as he has done against other thrown projectile weapons.

Once the shield is off the table, it's Kraven's fight to win. Kraven's employment of poisons coating his knives means that Cap can't afford to even get a scratch from Kraven, or he's going to suffer for it.

This holds opposite for Kraven, due to his high durability and healing factor, he can tank more than a few of Cap's hits and reply with a dirty maneuver, if he gets in trouble, such as his poison gas from his vest, which would give him an opening.

Kraven is also a skilled enough fighter to hang with Cap not get overwhelmed and could employ various grapples in order to gain an advantage over his opponent.

Kraven is also a skilled tactician, though not on Cap's level, he won't be falling into any traps Steve sets, especially since he knows New York so well due to hunting Spiderman there for so long.

Basically, he can hang with Cap at range, he can hang with Cap up close, but the thing that grants Kraven the win is his greater variety of gear, especially with his poison. All Kraven needs to do is wait for an opening in Cap's defense and employ some toxin and the fight's his.

Bump. We require votes!

Honestly, I think it best if we ignore the poles. The only reason I put them in in the first place was because I couldn't post the thread without them. Plus, I don't like the idea of the match being decided before the debating's done.

@veshark@deranged_midget@dondave@godtriggerhulk@theincrediblesuperhulk8642@neongamewave@jackknight

@comicstooge: Do you mean you want us to re vote again but not using the Poll? I still vote for Lvenger bye a hair though you were freakin close. Also I don't think Kraven is physically stronger or more durable than Cap but you made great arguments as to why he is even if I still disagree. Great debate though :)

Yeah, vote just like any another CAV (so, yeah, just like you did). And thanks for taking the time to read our arguments.

@comicstooge: Great. No problem it was really a great debate.

Bump.

@comicstooge: So are we going by poll votes or CAV votes? Because you're winning on the poll votes. Sorry for the delay, haven't set up Internet in Wales on my holiday for a few days. Will call in some more voters

@ancient_0f_days@slimj87d@jashro44@cadencev2@strider92

Would you guys mind voting in our debate between Captain America and Kraven if you have the time to spare? Please vote for who you thought debated better and represented their character the best.

Wow, Long debate, I will read this later.

Well for once this is almost too close to call. Both made use of scans, both shot the others counters down. So I will vote for in the end Kraven as I feel the debate did a good job showing of many variables he can add to a fight.

@cadencev2: Thanks for taking the time to read this Cadence! I really appreciate it :)

So that makes it 1 to me and 1 to you @comicstooge. It's already closer than our last debate :P