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#1 Edited by MonsterStomp (18213 posts) - - Show Bio

Captain America (Depowered)

Batman

Round One

  • Hand to hand only
  • Morals on
  • Fighting in MMA boxers or sweat pants only.
  • Pre-52 Batman
  • Classic Captain America
  • Captain America is depowered to par with Batman's physique (strength, speed, durability, reflexes etc), but each combatant retains their own collective muscle memory.
  • Fight is in a boxing ring
  • Fight ends in a tap out or a knock out

Round Two

  • Hand to hand only
  • Morals on
  • Fighting in MMA boxers or sweat pants only.
  • New 52 Batman
  • Classic Captain America
  • Captain America is depowered to par with Batman's physique (strength, speed, durability, reflexes etc), but each combatant retains their own collective muscle memory.
  • Fight is in a boxing ring
  • Fight ends in a tap out or a knock out

Should be a true test to see who is the more skilled combatant.

I'd love to see this fight myself.

#2 Posted by RBT (4232 posts) - - Show Bio

Means this is just a test of skills. Batman wins. Pretty easily.

#3 Posted by Ddecourt (803 posts) - - Show Bio

Batman wins via gogoplata.

#4 Posted by patrat18 (9813 posts) - - Show Bio

@rbt said:

Means this is just a test of skills. Batman wins. Pretty easily.

Sums it up.

#5 Edited by Shawnbaby (10803 posts) - - Show Bio

@patrat18 @rbt There is no easy victory here for either one. Anyone who says there is is just biased.

#6 Posted by VMole (625 posts) - - Show Bio

If they're both physically the same, it could go either way.

Batman can reach a rough parity with Captain America in a lot of fight setups due of his gadgets even though Captain America has an innate edge over him due to his superior attributes granted by the SSS, so it stands to reason that if they were given similar bodies and both are stripped of any of their toys, they are fairly even.

#7 Edited by Wolverine08 (42816 posts) - - Show Bio

It could go either way. They were already equals in skill, and now they are physical equals too. This fight will get a 5/10 split on each side.

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#8 Posted by Wolverine08 (42816 posts) - - Show Bio

Oh yeah, and great thread MonsterStomp.

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#9 Posted by Veshark (9058 posts) - - Show Bio

If Cap's (entire physique) is depowered to peak human levels, I wager his brain would be affected as well. Considering Cap has eidetic memory as well as the talent of adapting to an opponent's fighting styles...he might lose that edge if his brain turns peak-human. Food for thought.

#10 Posted by Immortal777 (7624 posts) - - Show Bio

Batman ftw

Batman is definitely the more skilled of the two and without out the slight stat edge Cap had Batman should take a majority.

#11 Posted by Wolverine08 (42816 posts) - - Show Bio
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#12 Posted by God_Spawn (37950 posts) - - Show Bio

Bruce

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#13 Posted by Parallax_Hal_Jordan (867 posts) - - Show Bio

Batman

#14 Posted by AllStarSuperman (21965 posts) - - Show Bio

Batman

#15 Posted by The_Titan_Lord (5818 posts) - - Show Bio

Could go either ways.

#16 Posted by patrat18 (9813 posts) - - Show Bio

@shawnbaby: No not at all Batman has way better h2h feats than Cap.

#17 Edited by Shawnbaby (10803 posts) - - Show Bio

@patrat18 said:

@shawnbaby: No not at all Batman has way better h2h feats than Cap.

Not really. You're discrediting Captain America a whole let here. These two are very closely matched in skill.

#18 Posted by patrat18 (9813 posts) - - Show Bio

@shawnbaby: Then by all means show me scans of Cap not using his enhancements to take out greater opponents like batman does.

#19 Edited by God_Spawn (37950 posts) - - Show Bio

I think saying either character has a vast edge in either stats or skill is rather ignorant. You take away Steve's enhancements, then you have a guy that could keel over from just walking down a flight of stairs. You take away Bruce's skill and you just have some jacked guy. Cap's physical argument has a lot of good feats against inanimate objects. He can jump out of a plane without a parachute and throw his shield through trucks, but in terms of that always helping him in combat, not so much. Plenty of skilled fighters that aren't enhanced or have low superhuman level stats have given Cap good fights. Daredevil, Taskmaster, Black Panther, Deadpool, Crossbones, Batroc, etc for examples.

On the other hand, asking for Cap's feats without the SS as a means to say he is far less skilled than Batman is ridiculous. Based on feats from a pure physical standpoint, Batman pulls out nearly some of the same sh*t Cap does. The guy can fight for 28 hours now. He's been drugged and stabbed and beaten up on for days and throws a Talon through the wall. He's punched through bazooka proof glass. He's deflected bullets with his gauntlets. Batman has crazy physical feats.

Seriously, the logic behind that Cap is so beneath Bruce as far as skill goes because he has enhancements is poor. The physical gap between them is already slim, but it's there and noticeable. Just as I would say that in terms of skill, Bruce has the slight edge over Steve. Turn Bruce into a 90 pound guy that looks like a Jew from Auschwitz with every health problem in the book and see how he handles his rogue gallery and then get back to me. Until then, the point is trash.

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#20 Edited by MonsterStomp (18213 posts) - - Show Bio

@god_spawn: Another user I wouldn't want to do a CaV with.

Oh yeah, and great thread MonsterStomp.

Thanks.

#21 Posted by Jmarshmallow (8146 posts) - - Show Bio

@god_spawn: While I can't be sure, because I didn't make the thread, I'm assuming he isn't referring to Steve Rogers when he was some frail little kid. He still "has the serum," but instead of putting his physicals ahead of Bats like most consider him to be, he would be the same. If anything, his physicals were just equalized to Bats.

So the logic that Batman wins by a decent margin isn't completely biased and without reason. An argument could EASILY be made for Bats in a regular Cap vs. Bats thread. So when you take away Caps greatest advantage against Bats, but let Bats keep the mostly-agreed upon skill advantage, it seems like logic would dictate that there really isn't much to discuss.

Now if you believe that Cap would usually destroy Bats in a regular battle, that's one thing, and now you have a solid argument. However, if you think Bats would give Cap a rough time usually, how could you believe that now it would suddenly be 50/50?

Not asking facetiously, I'm honestly curious?

To me, the winner of this battle is clear. Perhaps I'm missing something.

Jmarshmallow

#22 Posted by Wolverine08 (42816 posts) - - Show Bio

@jmarshmallow: Steve physicals aren't his greatest edge in the battle because he isn't that physically superior to Batman, and the winner really isn't clear. About 2 months ago, a thread where Steve with his enhancements vs Batman without gear in a pure H2H fight was made. 65% of people in the poll agreed that Cap would take the majority to due being just as skilled as Batman or very slightly below him, and having a physical edge. Now that Steve doesn't have a physicals edge, I can see why people can see this going either way because he's still just as skilled as Bruce just without the physicals edge.

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#23 Posted by WaveMotionCannon (5465 posts) - - Show Bio

This.

Stalemate

#24 Edited by Wolverine08 (42816 posts) - - Show Bio

To be frank, I really don't see how Batman is superior to Cap just because Cap has enhancements. Steve has been noted to have mastered all the world's fighting styles in the world, and has beaten or stalemated some of Marvel's most skilled fighters like Wolverine (a low level superhuman), Black Panther (a low level superhuman), Iron Fist (he becomes superhuman when using Chi), etc. His fighting skill is so great that he's been able to fight Spider-Man (someone with a BIG physical advantage over him) just by how skilled he was.

Saying someone isn't a skilled fighter just because they are physically enhanced is silly. By that logic, Black Panther, Wolverine, Daredevil, Deathstroke, and Iron Fist all aren't skilled fighters because they are physically enhanced someway. If you're a skilled fighter, you're a skilled fighter, whether or not you have enhancements.

At the end of the day, I don't see why Steve should be any less skilled than Bruce by looking at his feats.

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#25 Posted by Saren (25694 posts) - - Show Bio

Bruce crushes.

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#26 Posted by Cable_Extreme (9379 posts) - - Show Bio

Bruce will have an advantage, when you depower someone who trained with a certain physical prowess, it will make them out of their comfortable zone. CA will probably over exert himself due to being use to his super endurance.

#27 Posted by Wolverine08 (42816 posts) - - Show Bio

Bruce will have an advantage, when you depower someone who trained with a certain physical prowess, it will make them out of their comfortable zone. CA will probably over exert himself due to being use to his super endurance.

Cap has been able to beat 4 super solider enhanced soldier while being sickly and 98 lbs. He's also been able to beat/stalemate some of the Marvel U's best fighters like Wolverine (a low level superhuman), Black Panther (a low level superhuman) before, and has even been able to fight Spider-Man just through his skill. I don't think his enhancements are what he relies on.

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#28 Edited by pooty (11241 posts) - - Show Bio

@patrat18 said:

@shawnbaby: Then by all means show me scans of Cap not using his enhancements to take out greater opponents like batman does.

In this thread Batman has no prep or gadgets. What greater opponents has Bats beaten just with skill alone?

#29 Posted by MonsterStomp (18213 posts) - - Show Bio

@pooty: To be fair, Captain America doesn't have his shield here either.

#30 Posted by pooty (11241 posts) - - Show Bio

@pooty: To be fair, Captain America doesn't have his shield here either.

Very true. I'm just thinking it's going to be difficult to show Bats or Cap beating opponents without there standard gear/gadgets

#31 Posted by Cable_Extreme (9379 posts) - - Show Bio

@cable_extreme said:

Bruce will have an advantage, when you depower someone who trained with a certain physical prowess, it will make them out of their comfortable zone. CA will probably over exert himself due to being use to his super endurance.

Cap has been able to beat 4 super solider enhanced soldier while being sickly and 98 lbs. He's also been able to beat/stalemate some of the Marvel U's best fighters like Wolverine (a low level superhuman), Black Panther (a low level superhuman) before, and has even been able to fight Spider-Man just through his skill. I don't think his enhancements are what he relies on.

I think his skill is on pars with Batman, but taking away his endurance will mean he most likely will have habits.

#32 Posted by MonsterStomp (18213 posts) - - Show Bio

@pooty said:

@monsterstomp said:

@pooty: To be fair, Captain America doesn't have his shield here either.

Very true. I'm just thinking it's going to be difficult to show Bats or Cap beating opponents without there standard gear/gadgets

Indeed. I'd still pay to watch this fight.

#33 Posted by pooty (11241 posts) - - Show Bio

@pooty said:

@monsterstomp said:

@pooty: To be fair, Captain America doesn't have his shield here either.

Very true. I'm just thinking it's going to be difficult to show Bats or Cap beating opponents without there standard gear/gadgets

Indeed. I'd still pay to watch this fight.

Hell yeah. I liked the crossover when they just made slight movements to see what the other would do. Then batman said: Listen.... It's possible you could beat me....but it would take a long time. So let's work together." They didn't even throw a punch and it was intense lol

#34 Posted by jashro44 (22266 posts) - - Show Bio

@pooty: In the iron fist scans it should be noted iron fist was mentally fatigued from using the iron fist too many times when he was fighting cap.

He use to have restrictions with how many times he could use it.

#35 Posted by Cable_Extreme (9379 posts) - - Show Bio

@pooty said:

@monsterstomp said:

@pooty said:

@monsterstomp said:

@pooty: To be fair, Captain America doesn't have his shield here either.

Very true. I'm just thinking it's going to be difficult to show Bats or Cap beating opponents without there standard gear/gadgets

Indeed. I'd still pay to watch this fight.

Hell yeah. I liked the crossover when they just made slight movements to see what the other would do. Then batman said: Listen.... It's possible you could beat me....but it would take a long time. So let's work together." They didn't even throw a punch and it was intense lol

I must see this!!!!! lol

#36 Edited by jashro44 (22266 posts) - - Show Bio

I think saying either character has a vast edge in either stats or skill is rather ignorant. You take away Steve's enhancements, then you have a guy that could keel over from just walking down a flight of stairs. You take away Bruce's skill and you just have some jacked guy. Cap's physical argument has a lot of good feats against inanimate objects. He can jump out of a plane without a parachute and throw his shield through trucks, but in terms of that always helping him in combat, not so much. Plenty of skilled fighters that aren't enhanced or have low superhuman level stats have given Cap good fights. Daredevil, Taskmaster, Black Panther, Deadpool, Crossbones, Batroc, etc for examples.

On the other hand, asking for Cap's feats without the SS as a means to say he is far less skilled than Batman is ridiculous. Based on feats from a pure physical standpoint, Batman pulls out nearly some of the same sh*t Cap does. The guy can fight for 28 hours now. He's been drugged and stabbed and beaten up on for days and throws a Talon through the wall. He's punched through bazooka proof glass. He's deflected bullets with his gauntlets. Batman has crazy physical feats.

Seriously, the logic behind that Cap is so beneath Bruce as far as skill goes because he has enhancements is poor. The physical gap between them is already slim, but it's there and noticeable. Just as I would say that in terms of skill, Bruce has the slight edge over Steve. Turn Bruce into a 90 pound guy that looks like a Jew from Auschwitz with every health problem in the book and see how he handles his rogue gallery and then get back to me. Until then, the point is trash.

Agreed.

#37 Posted by Cara_Hunter (3687 posts) - - Show Bio

@patrat18 said:

@rbt said:

Means this is just a test of skills. Batman wins. Pretty easily.

Sums it up.

#38 Posted by pooty (11241 posts) - - Show Bio
#39 Edited by Cable_Extreme (9379 posts) - - Show Bio

@pooty said:

@cable_extreme:

This is EXACTLY how it would happen!!!

My life is completed, thank you good sir!

#40 Posted by dondave (37972 posts) - - Show Bio

Bats

#41 Edited by Saren (25694 posts) - - Show Bio

It's very easy to claim that Cap doesn't rely on his enhancements and that they don't have any reflection on his combat competency, or at least not as much reflection on it as his skills do. It's also complete nonsense. Cap has had his enhancements for 99% of his publishing history, and in every single example quoted thus far on this thread, barring the one from Steve Rogers: Super Soldier, he was enhanced. Discounting the role played by his enhancements and crediting every victory to skill is a deliberately blinkered position to take. His enhancements are ubiquitous, so much so that they fade into the background and are easy to take for granted. Doesn't mean they're not there. They always are. Do the people on this thread really think that his enhancements made no difference to any of his fights? That the attributes they granted him didn't matter one whit; that the capabilities to hit harder, move faster and last longer are utterly insignificant next to his skills, that Cap's track record against highly skilled opponents would be identical with or without the Super-Soldier Serum?

Are these same people aware that line of reasoning is just plain terrible? I mean, really, why would anyone seriously believe that? Because 90-pound half-dead Steve once took on a group of enhanced brutes and won? Would that same example not be dismissed as fodder for any other street leveler worth their salt? Because god knows street levelers don't regularly face those odds and crush them, right? What is that example supposed to prove, that Steve's skills ensure that his competency in combat remains stationary regardless of where his stats lie? Go ahead and make a 90-pound Steve vs Wolverine/Black Panther/Iron Fist thread and see what kind of responses you get.

Cap's fight against Iron Fist took place in the 70's, and Danny was already tired before that fight happened. The Iron Fist of today is about twice as skilled and, I dunno, maybe three times more physically formidable if you want to quantify these things. His fight against Black Panther wasn't a fight, neither of them actually wanted to fight the other guy. I notice no one supporting Cap here brings up the time he lost another non-fight to Black Panther in Hudlin's run as if that were definitive of his skill vis-a-vis another top-tier street leveler. Wolverine? LOL. Cap has never stalemated Wolverine in a legitimate fight against a Logan in control of himself and his abilities. Either Logan's deranged and fighting like a berserk animal because of plot or he's been beat up and his healing factor's severely depleted and he's still giving Cap critical aneurysms in that condition, or he's been through a multi-day long gauntlet and is already exhausted and ready to drop before Steve sneaks up and bashes him from behind, or Giant-Man shows up and spares Cap the ignominy of a losing battle. I've noticed this on plenty of threads, but Cap supporters seem to think surviving for 30 seconds against Wolverine qualifies as stalemating Wolverine, as if the cards weren't heavily stacked against Steve from the beginning in a battle against Logan. Cap's battles with Logan always have some amount of plot intervening because if the two of them ever had a serious, no-context fight to the finish, there's only one way it would end: with a 21-gun salute at Arlington. Do not delude yourselves into thinking Cap is going to come out of that fight in one piece.

That thing that really gets me every single time is when people try to justify Cap's equal or greater skill using Spider-Man as an example. Spider-Man hero-worships Cap. In the Civil War fight that everyone quotes, his inner monologue is literally worshiping the ground Steve walks on right in the middle of a fight. Make Spider-Man a Democrat, pretend he doesn't know Steve personally and give him his hardened Back in Black personality and deadly focus, he'll rip Cap limb from limb every single time. Ok, that was a joke, but only the Democrat part. But more importantly, people are using the fight with Spider-Man to further the position that Steve's skills aren't as prominent a factor in his combat competency as his enhancements are? Despite the fact that we've seen in very recent years that people with near-peak or peak human stats like Punisher can literally deliver multiple punches to Parker's face and they'll accomplish so little that Spidey won't even acknowledge they happened? If you really want to cite Spider-Man as a serious example, I'd offer to cite Batman beating the crap out of Aquaman and Wonder Woman with his bare hands, but that'll just stir up trouble.

The reason people say Batman is more skilled than Captain America is because Batman's skill is easier to prove than Captain America's is. Batman is more like Wolverine and Iron Fist when it comes to skill: all three characters have well-documented and demonstrated training regarding the sources, extent and effectiveness of said training. Captain America relies almost exclusively on statements from himself and other people, and the mysterious contributions of unnamed "private tutors" to his skill. To compensate for that, people bring up his fights with other high-tier street levelers and rely on rudimentary ABC logic to establish his level of skill. There is no statement about Cap's skill that hasn't been applied to Batman's skill a dozen times more often, and in greater detail, and to infer a greater degree of competency with the specific skill subset. Cap claims that he's proficient in nerve strikes? Nightwing will claim Batman knows every single nerve strike ever devised in human history. Cap claims to be adept at all martial arts? Batman will not only lay claim to being a master of all martial arts, he will display mastery of martial arts so obscure that only two other people on the planet have ever heard of them. Little things like that.

Bruce wins a solid majority. He is the more skilled fighter and Cap's enhanced physicals typically make up the balance. Take away those physicals and I don't need to hold your hand and walk you through it.

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#42 Posted by Parallax_Hal_Jordan (867 posts) - - Show Bio
#43 Edited by ThanoStomp (790 posts) - - Show Bio

In every other Cap vs. Bats battle, I've said Cap. But in this format.... must resist....can't stop myself......arrrrrrgggghhhh!!!!!!! Batman. There I said it. I feel like crap.

#44 Edited by venomoushatred1001 (12334 posts) - - Show Bio

Must resist...must...resist.. Batman wins. F#ck!

#45 Posted by DigitalShooter9 (1666 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't get the point of this topic, I mean, with these conditions, Caps gets destroyed....You don't put someone who's got some military fighting training against someone who has mastered over 127 martial arts....

Another point, though, is that even with the effects of the serum, Caps is simply peak human strength. Batman is also at the peak of his physical condition. (Don't get me wrong caps has better strength feats than batman or maybe peak human in marvel is stronger than the peak human in dc. Any of these could be accounted.) But technically, you don't depower cap's to be in batman's level. They are meant to be at the same level....

#46 Posted by Cara_Hunter (3687 posts) - - Show Bio

Batman stomps lol most of Cap's feat relied on his peak human abilities.

in reality cap is peak while Batman on paper isn't

with 100% equal stats Batman decimates.

#47 Edited by VMole (625 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't get the point of this topic, I mean, with these conditions, Caps gets destroyed....You don't put someone who's got some military fighting training against someone who has mastered over 127 martial arts....

Another point, though, is that even with the effects of the serum, Caps is simply peak human strength. Batman is also at the peak of his physical condition. (Don't get me wrong caps has better strength feats than batman or maybe peak human in marvel is stronger than the peak human in dc. Any of these could be accounted.) But technically, you don't depower cap's to be in batman's level. They are meant to be at the same level....

Knowing 127 martial arts is overrated since only comparatively few of those martial arts have any sort of practical application. At the end of the day, a fight is very much determined by whoever possesses superior physical attributes with the ability of being able to apply a certain level of skill being right behind it. There's a reason why fighters are classed and distributed by weight and not by some arbitrary level of skill you know, though that doesn't matter because for the purposes for this match, the fighters are physically equal.

Also, stop downplaying military training, the military teaches grappling and striking maneuvers that are designed to incapacitate and/or kill unarmed and armed opponents in the quickest and most efficient manner possible. Flashy and esoteric styles and maneuvers are good for reading material, but they mean very little in actual combat.

#48 Posted by patrat18 (9813 posts) - - Show Bio

@pooty: Cap does not have his shield or his enhancements ill wait.

#49 Posted by patrat18 (9813 posts) - - Show Bio

@god_spawn: While I can't be sure, because I didn't make the thread, I'm assuming he isn't referring to Steve Rogers when he was some frail little kid. He still "has the serum," but instead of putting his physicals ahead of Bats like most consider him to be, he would be the same. If anything, his physicals were just equalized to Bats.

So the logic that Batman wins by a decent margin isn't completely biased and without reason. An argument could EASILY be made for Bats in a regular Cap vs. Bats thread. So when you take away Caps greatest advantage against Bats, but let Bats keep the mostly-agreed upon skill advantage, it seems like logic would dictate that there really isn't much to discuss.

Now if you believe that Cap would usually destroy Bats in a regular battle, that's one thing, and now you have a solid argument. However, if you think Bats would give Cap a rough time usually, how could you believe that now it would suddenly be 50/50?

Not asking facetiously, I'm honestly curious?

To me, the winner of this battle is clear. Perhaps I'm missing something.

Jmarshmallow

1000% agreed.

#50 Posted by RBT (4232 posts) - - Show Bio

Batman and Cap BOTH are peak human. Bruce is at peak condition of HIS body, Steve is peak of human condition. That's why Cap is slghtly stronger. But that doesn't really matter. People tend to forget that a little strength advantage is not going to create problems for Batman. He fights AND defeats Bane on a regular basis. A guy who is as fast and skilled as Captain and ten times stronger.

Batman knows 127 forms of martial arts. Now, a lot of people would say, just because he knows them, doesn't mean he's gonna defeat anyone who doesn't in a random hand to hand. They're right. Kinda. Batman cannot defeat Superman in a random h2h fight even though Supes hardly knows any form of fighting. But Cap is,no Superman. Barman knows AND applies 127 martial arts in his fights. Batman has tanked hits from Bane. Cap's punches won't really deter him as much.

Batman knows pressure point attacks. One touch on your neck and you're down. Cap has never shown any knowledge of this.

Bruce is smart. Cap has eidetic memory as well, but he's not even clise to Bruce when it comes to tactis, planning and prep.

Even after all this you say that 'Cap takes,majority', then you need to read DC.