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#1 Edited by Army2442 (1803 posts) - - Show Bio

Random encounter

No prep

Gear:

Marvel Team:

Captain America (steve) has standard gear

Hawkwey has his normal bow with 200 arrows, 10 explosive arrows

Black Panther has his standard gear (except replace his vibranuim armor with kevlar)

DC Team:

Btaman has standard gear

Superman has standard gear along 1 smoke grenade, and a sledge hammer

Wonder Woman his a steel longsword and a shield

Location:

Marvel teams starts out at the Lincoln memorial and the DC team starts out by the white house. (the entire area is abandoned)

This is pre new 52 dc characters

Pre upgrade black panther

current hawkeye and cap

Morals on

Superman and wonder woman are completely de powered down to peak human level.

who wins?

#2 Posted by Fresh Prince (5203 posts) - - Show Bio

Team Marvel. From what I know, Superman doesn't have H2H feats and I'm not sure what WW's H2H feats are, but I doubt that they'd be able to handle either Cap or BP. Both are above peak human and are surely better fighters than the two. The only real threat I believe is Batman but he would eventually go down as well. I didn't even bring up Barton yet who should also be a big plus in this fight fight his excellent marksmanship and especially with his explosive arrows which would really slow the opponents down and help Cap and BP take them out easier.

#3 Posted by YoungJustice (6887 posts) - - Show Bio

Team Dc

Wonder Woman solos possibly.

#4 Edited by ImTheDamnBatman (3548 posts) - - Show Bio

Oooooooo. Good one. Hawkeye dies, but I'm going to say Black Panther can beat Clark and WW, even with their combat abilities. Batman beats Cap by a slim margin, but is defeated by Black panther. For once, Marvel gets a win from me!

#5 Posted by TheVoiceOfReason (747 posts) - - Show Bio

@ImTheDamnBatman said:

Oooooooo. Good one. Hawkeye dies, but I'm going to say Black Panther can beat Clark and WW, even with their combat abilities. Batman beats Cap by a slim margin, but is defeated by Cap. For once, Marvel gets a win from me!

Is that a type or am i missing something.

#6 Edited by britsera (204 posts) - - Show Bio

Team Marvel wins by numbers.

Bats can hold his own, but Supes and WW have little to no experience fighting without their powers, and hence no H2H skills once they lose them (think of people who can operate a DVD player inside out, but have no idea what to do with a casette; all thier timing would be off, etc). The major exception in WW and her sword, but even that is affected - ex, the sword if going to feel a lot heavier without her super strength, she'll probably move a lot slower, etc.The lose all their resistances, etc and hence would have to change their style (i.e., Supes can't tank the hits anymore, WW probably can't knock the bullets) to something they are totally unfamiliar with. Bats is the only one unaffected.

WW and Supes would lose, leaving Bats to face the other three on his own. Bats is obviously one of DC's best H2H, but I don't think he could take the Marvel team all by himself, essp in a random encounter, daylight, out-of-Gotham, no prep condition.

#7 Posted by KnightRise (4785 posts) - - Show Bio

@Fresh Prince: Superman knows paralyzing nerve strikes and grappling that he had to learn during the New Krypton stuff. I think has scans?

#8 Posted by Immortal777 (7732 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm always confused when people say WW depowered because even without her god enhancements she's still a Amazon and their tonners.

#9 Posted by TheVoiceOfReason (747 posts) - - Show Bio

@britsera said:

Team Marvel wins by numbers.

Bats can hold his own, but Supes and WW have little to no experience fighting without their powers, and hence no H2H skills once they lose them (think of people who can operate a DVD player inside out, but have no idea what to do with a casette; all thier timing would be off, etc). The major exception in WW and her sword, but even that is affected - ex, the sword if going to feel a lot heavier without her super strength, she'll probably move a lot slower, etc.The lose all their resistances, etc and hence would have to change their style (i.e., Supes can't tank the hits anymore, WW probably can't knock the bullets) to something they are totally unfamiliar with. Bats is the only one unaffected.

WW and Supes would lose, leaving Bats to face the other three on his own. Bats is obviously one of DC's best H2H, but I don't think he could take the Marvel team all by himself, essp in a random encounter, daylight, out-of-Gotham, no prep condition.

How does WW have no H2H skills?

#10 Posted by Fresh Prince (5203 posts) - - Show Bio

@Immortal777 said:

I'm always confused when people say WW depowered because even without her god enhancements she's still a Amazon and their tonners.

It says depowered to a peak human level.

@KnightRise said:

@Fresh Prince: Superman knows paralyzing nerve strikes and grappling that he had to learn during the New Krypton stuff. I think

Something that the Marvel fighters can also do.

#11 Edited by KnightRise (4785 posts) - - Show Bio

@Fresh Prince said:

@KnightRise said:

@Fresh Prince: Superman knows paralyzing nerve strikes and grappling that he had to learn during the New Krypton stuff. I think

Something that the Marvel fighters can also do.

Just giving you something to compare to.

NOTE: NINENINENINE!!!!

#12 Posted by Fresh Prince (5203 posts) - - Show Bio

@KnightRise: Yeah, I know. Appreciate it man.

#13 Edited by Army2442 (1803 posts) - - Show Bio

@britsera said:

Team Marvel wins by numbers.

Bats can hold his own, but Supes and WW have little to no experience fighting without their powers, and hence no H2H skills once they lose them (think of people who can operate a DVD player inside out, but have no idea what to do with a casette; all thier timing would be off, etc). The major exception in WW and her sword, but even that is affected - ex, the sword if going to feel a lot heavier without her super strength, she'll probably move a lot slower, etc.The lose all their resistances, etc and hence would have to change their style (i.e., Supes can't tank the hits anymore, WW probably can't knock the bullets) to something they are totally unfamiliar with. Bats is the only one unaffected.

WW and Supes would lose, leaving Bats to face the other three on his own. Bats is obviously one of DC's best H2H, but I don't think he could take the Marvel team all by himself, essp in a random encounter, daylight, out-of-Gotham, no prep condition.

Wonder Woman has her own feats and is considered Batman's H2H equal.

#14 Edited by Static Shock (47329 posts) - - Show Bio

@Army2442 said:

Wonder Woman has her own feats is considered Batman's H2H equal.

I disagree with this, nor have I read it anywhere.

#15 Posted by TheVoiceOfReason (747 posts) - - Show Bio

@Static Shock said:

@Army2442 said:

Wonder Woman has her own feats is considered Batman's H2H equal.

I disagree with this, nor have a read it anywhere.

Hasn't Batman stated Wonder Woman was Earth's best melee fighter.

#16 Posted by Static Shock (47329 posts) - - Show Bio

@TheVoiceOfReason said:

Hasn't Batman stated Wonder Woman was Earth's best melee fighter.

Yes, but it was probably stated because of her skill level combined with her superhuman physical abilities. Plus, melee refers to disorganized fighting tactics (especially with swords and shields in full-scale battles). Not sure if his meaning of the word is the same, but that's the original meaning. Other than that, she's not the best fighter in the world. There are fighters weaker than her that have better fighting skills than she does.

#17 Posted by Static Shock (47329 posts) - - Show Bio

@YoungJustice said:

Team Dc

Wonder Woman solos possibly.

Not at all.

At Cap and Black Panther's physical level, she doesn't stand a chance. She's not as skilled as they are.

#18 Edited by britsera (204 posts) - - Show Bio

@TheVoiceOfReason said:

@britsera said:

Team Marvel wins by numbers.

Bats can hold his own, but Supes and WW have little to no experience fighting without their powers, and hence no H2H skills once they lose them (think of people who can operate a DVD player inside out, but have no idea what to do with a casette; all thier timing would be off, etc). The major exception in WW and her sword, but even that is affected - ex, the sword if going to feel a lot heavier without her super strength, she'll probably move a lot slower, etc.The lose all their resistances, etc and hence would have to change their style (i.e., Supes can't tank the hits anymore, WW probably can't knock the bullets) to something they are totally unfamiliar with. Bats is the only one unaffected.

WW and Supes would lose, leaving Bats to face the other three on his own. Bats is obviously one of DC's best H2H, but I don't think he could take the Marvel team all by himself, essp in a random encounter, daylight, out-of-Gotham, no prep condition.

How does WW have no H2H skills?

Not that she doesn't have any, but its very different fighting with no powers and fighting with them (I'm saying she has fewer depowered H2H skills). For example, her ability to fly probably helps her to flips, high kicks, get off the ground, etc, because she is used to having that capability (getting off the ground is easy for her due to wherever the ability to fly comes from). Similarly, swinging a 20 pound sword is far easier when you can lift 20 tonnes (a decimal point of your max capacity), vs when you can lift like 60 pounds (a third of your max capacity). Back to the flips, etc example - Now she has to do them using her legs alone (not that she's not perfectly capable, but its different). I'm saying that "strangeness" is going to hamper her combat ability, and hence even at "peak human condition" her H2H will not be nearly as good as usual.

Think of it as switching from Google Chrome to IE and looking up comic vine. You can get to the website with both, but using the one you are not used to is going to make you slower to it, etc.

#19 Posted by YoungJustice (6887 posts) - - Show Bio

@Static Shock : I'm too scared to reply back. I don't like debating with mods. Scary.

#20 Posted by Static Shock (47329 posts) - - Show Bio

@YoungJustice said:

@Static Shock : I'm too scared to reply back. I don't like debating with mods. Scary.

LOL.

#21 Posted by Strafe Prower (11888 posts) - - Show Bio

Team Marvel for the win.

Superman is out of his league here, as is Wonder Woman. These 3 know each other well enough that they will have great teamwork and tactics. Not to mention that Team Marvel has the skill advantage.

#22 Posted by matchesmalone21 (9142 posts) - - Show Bio

@KnightRise: Scan s about what? supes nerve strike?

#23 Posted by Blacklightning13 (916 posts) - - Show Bio

@Army2442 said:

@britsera said:

Team Marvel wins by numbers.

Bats can hold his own, but Supes and WW have little to no experience fighting without their powers, and hence no H2H skills once they lose them (think of people who can operate a DVD player inside out, but have no idea what to do with a casette; all thier timing would be off, etc). The major exception in WW and her sword, but even that is affected - ex, the sword if going to feel a lot heavier without her super strength, she'll probably move a lot slower, etc.The lose all their resistances, etc and hence would have to change their style (i.e., Supes can't tank the hits anymore, WW probably can't knock the bullets) to something they are totally unfamiliar with. Bats is the only one unaffected.

WW and Supes would lose, leaving Bats to face the other three on his own. Bats is obviously one of DC's best H2H, but I don't think he could take the Marvel team all by himself, essp in a random encounter, daylight, out-of-Gotham, no prep condition.

Wonder Woman has her own feats and is considered Batman's H2H equal.

Considered by who? She is good but Batman is the best.

Superman does have some h2h experience. He knows a little boxing, ju do and some grappling. He is also near batman level with pressure point attacks. But that's mostly due to him having x ray vision so he can see the points perfectly. Without his x ray vision he would be much worse at h2h (of course im talking about skill only, the rest of his powers help with his physique.

Wonder Woman has a lot of h2h experience and training. She also has training with weapons which will help even more. Not to mention both Wonder Woman and Superman now have the bodies of Captain America, so they will be stronger and faster then Batman, Hawkeye or BP.

I give the win to Marvel. 8/10.

#24 Posted by jeanroygrant (20191 posts) - - Show Bio

@Static Shock said:

@TheVoiceOfReason said:

Hasn't Batman stated Wonder Woman was Earth's best melee fighter.

Yes, but it was probably stated because of her skill level combined with her superhuman physical abilities. Plus, melee refers to disorganized fighting tactics (especially with swords and shields in full-scale battles). Not sure if his meaning of the word is the same, but that's the original meaning. Other than that, she's not the best fighter in the world. There are fighters weaker than her that have better fighting skills than she does.

@Static Shock said:

@YoungJustice said:

Team Dc

Wonder Woman solos possibly.

Not at all.

At Cap and Black Panther's physical level, she doesn't stand a chance. She's not as skilled as they are.

This my friend, is correct.

Thread/

#25 Posted by matchesmalone21 (9142 posts) - - Show Bio

@Strafe Prower: @jeanroygrant: What Wonder Woman isn't skilled as Cap and Black Panther? The best female fighter of Dc Universe,that came from a island of ancient warrior womens,trained since the childhood in many form of armed and unamerd combat? The same Wonder Woman was trained by I-Ching. The same Wonder Woman,that outclass Black Canary (in h2h)? Seriously?

Where was the Captain America's physical upper,when he loses against Batroc,Zaran and Cross bones? That aren't skilled as him and physically inferior?

I think that I have to remember you guys,even depowered,Wonder Woman is still a Amazon..still physically above peak human and even above Cap and Black Panther.

:Here the scans

#26 Posted by ckal (1099 posts) - - Show Bio

matchesmalone- You think an average fighter who knows a couple pressure point moves is going to stop Cap, BP, or even Hawkeye? These guys go up against better fighters on a consistent basis, what makes you think they wouldn't be able to defend that?

#27 Posted by Strafe Prower (11888 posts) - - Show Bio

@ckal: Wait...am I dreaming or you actually alive? PM'd!

#28 Posted by ckal (1099 posts) - - Show Bio

Haha yes, it is truly me. Check your PMs ;)

#29 Posted by MisterWhisper (2124 posts) - - Show Bio

Batman should never call Wonder Woman earth's best melee combatant. Zealot might overhear it, then that would end badly.

#30 Posted by k4tzm4n (51199 posts) - - Show Bio
@matchesmalone21:  

Where was the Captain America's physical upper,when he loses against Batroc,Zaran and Cross bones?  That aren't skilled as him and physically inferior? 


  
  • Captain America only lost against Batroc when the Leaper was using non-traditional gear, which provided a technological edge. 
  • Crossbones has never defeated Captain America.  He took the edge once with a trap and another time was when he had his powers. 
  • When has Zaran defeated Cap?
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#31 Posted by Strafe Prower (11888 posts) - - Show Bio

As for the thread...

@matchesmalone21: Just because Bruce said that, doesn't mean it is true. Batman gives complements quite often, so don't take that for fact. Wonder Woman doesn't have the feats to back up such a claim. Lady Shiva, Cassandra Cain, and others have her beat by a good portion.

#32 Edited by matchesmalone21 (9142 posts) - - Show Bio

@Strafe Prower: Sorry, but you saw I'm saying something Batman stated Wonder Woman being the best female fighter,nope. So do not say I did not say,okay? Never do this again,never..

Which feats that she doesn't have? Fightning skills? because she already demonstrated many, or you missed any Wonder Woman issues?

#33 Posted by matchesmalone21 (9142 posts) - - Show Bio

@k4tzm4n:

1) That's no excuse

2) Win or Lose...Crossbones gives him a beaten,many times

3) When Batroc hire him ,to steal Cap's shield

#34 Posted by Strafe Prower (11888 posts) - - Show Bio

@matchesmalone21: I assumed that's the reason you stated that Diana was the best female fighter of the DC universe. My apologies if that's not what you were referencing.

In any case, She doesn't have the feats for such a title. She hasn't fought any highly skilled opponents on a consistent level, such as Lady Shiva, Cassandra Cain, Black Canary, etc. At least, she hasn't while in a de-powered state, as she is in this fight.

#35 Posted by k4tzm4n (51199 posts) - - Show Bio
@matchesmalone21:  
  1. It is an excuse.  You were implying Cap's phyiscals and skill wasn't enough to save him from Batroc - but it is.  He regularly beats Batroc.  Batroc's only victory was using advanced technology that isn't a part of his standard gear.  How does that translate to this battle at all?
  2. Sure, he's given Cap a good fight, but how is that a discredit to Cap?  The guy has also laid-out Bullseye and Daredevil.  He's a tough and quite skilled street leveler.  Not seeing how that's an insult to Cap's abilities.
  3. I haven't read that.  Any chance you can provide scans so I can see the context? 
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#36 Posted by Strafe Prower (11888 posts) - - Show Bio

Zaran beating Cap is a joke and should be disregarded if it is true.

#37 Posted by k4tzm4n (51199 posts) - - Show Bio
@Strafe Prower said:

Zaran beating Cap is a joke and should be disregarded if it is true.

It was my understanding that his best feat was chumping Moon Knight.
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#38 Posted by Strafe Prower (11888 posts) - - Show Bio

@k4tzm4n said:

@Strafe Prower said:

Zaran beating Cap is a joke and should be disregarded if it is true.

It was my understanding that his best feat was chumping Moon Knight.

Zaran has been beaten by Mockingbird and Hawkeye. For him to beat Moon Knight is questionable as well.

#39 Posted by k4tzm4n (51199 posts) - - Show Bio
@Strafe Prower said:

@k4tzm4n said:

@Strafe Prower said:

Zaran beating Cap is a joke and should be disregarded if it is true.

It was my understanding that his best feat was chumping Moon Knight.

Zaran has been beaten by Mockingbird and Hawkeye. For him to beat Moon Knight is questionable as well.

Oh yeah, no idea how legitimate the actual fight is.  I've never read it myself - I've just been told that's the only decent thing he has done.  
 
And despite this, he has a 7 for fighting skill in his handbook entry.  Hah.
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#40 Posted by Strafe Prower (11888 posts) - - Show Bio

@k4tzm4n: We should look it up. Most likely, it's got some sort of plot device or something to that effect.

LOL, you know my view on the Handbooks. They are wrong about half the time.

#41 Posted by Alexander505 (2176 posts) - - Show Bio

Team DC stomps easy

#42 Posted by ckal (1099 posts) - - Show Bio

matchesmalone- Did you not reply to my comment by accident, or do you actually not have a good response to it?

#43 Posted by ckal (1099 posts) - - Show Bio

Alexander- Because your FanFic says so doesn't mean it's right.

#44 Posted by matchesmalone21 (9142 posts) - - Show Bio

@Strafe Prower: Actually she was depowered in Gail Simone's run,when she wasn't wearing her costume...and your remember that during Greg Rucka's run she fought/training with the JLA while blind and defeated them? (despite she doesn't have enhanced hearing) and she was depowered or less powerful,when Artemis replace her...

First scans is to show,that even depowered she can handle with people above her physical capacity

#45 Posted by matchesmalone21 (9142 posts) - - Show Bio

@k4tzm4n said:

@matchesmalone21:
  1. It is an excuse. You were implying Cap's phyiscals and skill wasn't enough to save him from Batroc - but it is. He regularly beats Batroc. Batroc's only victory was using advanced technology that isn't a part of his standard gear. How does that translate to this battle at all?
  2. Sure, he's given Cap a good fight, but how is that a discredit to Cap? The guy has also laid-out Bullseye and Daredevil. He's a tough and quite skilled street leveler. Not seeing how that's an insult to Cap's abilities.
  3. I haven't read that. Any chance you can provide scans so I can see the context?

1) This is not the first time that you read something I say and says another thing. There is no excuse for Captain America lose, he did not think would Batroc cheat to win .. oh please

2) Just as people discredit the Wonder Woman and credit Cap and Black Panther,using the damn ABC logic..I mean, that just like any comic book character, he is likely to lose to characters less experienced or less skilled. oque is not the case here, since we still have the Wonder Woman fighting skills and physical peak of an Amazon, which is still above peak human perfection. What most people ignore...

3) Okay,I will search and then,post here

#46 Posted by k4tzm4n (51199 posts) - - Show Bio
@matchesmalone21:  
 


  This is not the first time that you read something I say and says another thing. There is no excuse for Captain America lose, he did not think would Batroc cheat to win .. oh please 

You initial point was Captain America loses to Batroc.  You were attempting to say that his skill and physicals weren't enough to overcome Batroc.  That's simply not true and I was calling you out on it.  Disagree if you wish, but Cap doesn't have a bad track record against The Leaper.  Furthermore, you added these characters aren't as skilled and not as physically impressive, implying the losses were based on skill.  That isn't true for Batroc's victory against Captain America. 

  2)  Just as people discredit the Wonder Woman and credit Cap and Black Panther,using the damn ABC logic.. I mean, that just like any comic book character, he is likely to lose to characters less experienced or less skilled. oque is not the case here, since we still have the Wonder Woman fighting skills and physical peak of an Amazon, which is still above peak human perfection. What most people ignore... 

I haven't read the debate, nor am I even weighing in on which team wins.  I saw your post and I wanted to fact check it.  You said Cap loses to Crossbones - and again, that isn't true.  He's never lost to Crossbones.  So your initial point was false and I felt obligated to let you know. 

3) Okay,I will search and then,post here  
 

Excellent.  Thanks.
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#47 Posted by Army2442 (1803 posts) - - Show Bio

@Alexander505 said:

Team DC stomps easy

why?

#48 Posted by Baldy (5021 posts) - - Show Bio

Marvel wins this easily. Wonder Woman, is overrated and about as consistent as Wolverine in the combat skill department.

#49 Posted by matchesmalone21 (9142 posts) - - Show Bio

@ckal: are you feeling okay? you're needing something? some medicine? fresh air? I didn't reply to you..... my scan are for Knightrises,I said nothig baout supes knowing pressure points ..so stop to supost thing that I didn't say and pay attention,what are you reading

#50 Posted by matchesmalone21 (9142 posts) - - Show Bio

@k4tzm4n: Seriously, why you answered my comment without reading the other, I'm some kind of chosen? There are many points as I said about Wonder Woman, being underestimating by the other viners and you did not answer it. Yes I said physically inferior, compared to Captain America, who thanks to the super soldier serum,superpass their physical capacity..or I'm wrong in this?