canon and not canon information in battles! (Read me!)

right, i know this has been bugging a lot of people lately, so can we actually iron out some rules for the battle forums please?

the main problem i've come across is people using information about characters not found in the comics if they want a specific character to win, but then denying the same 'outside' information if they want another character to loose.

mainly i have spotted this problem in the battle threads where the characters are either video game characters as well as comic characters, or movies / tv shows.

the main question is, do we allow outside information from games / movies / tv shows to be used as 'canon' information when there is absolutely no basis for these 'powers' in the comics?

say we start a battle, Sub Zero Vs Superman.

now, in the latest Mortal Kombat game, Sub Zero is basically a God... do we allow that as 'canon' as disregard everything learned about Sub Zero in the comics as a 'mortal man'?

the same goes for Superman... if we allow Sub Zero the 'outside' powers, the same must be allowed to him, so any powers that Superman has shown in any of the movies, TV shows, games... whatever...

so he has time travel, molecular control, faster than light speeds / reflexes... where does it stop?

So i ask this to the entire forum to set up as a standard rule.

Do we allow non-comic information to be used as 'canon' information?

========================================================================

M
Post Edited:2007-12-09 17:50:26

same thing goes for supes too if he basicly lifts a airplane like in the latest movie and someone brings that up its the same thing it happened.

id say its legitimate as long as they have the same outside proof like if something happened in a movie then post the part from the movie.

mmm hard decision

Warlock360 says:

"id say its legitimate as long as they have the same outside proof like if something happened in a movie then post the part from the movie."

in that case Superman is now immune to Kryptonite (Lois and Clark: New Adventures of Superman. Season 4, Episode 11 he gets an 'immunization shot' from his Kryptonian cousins who survived the explosion)

he is also faster than light. (Lois and Clark, season 3 episode 21)

It's canon because it appeared in an 'official' Superman story... right?

M

Eh, I figure it comes down to how the person would state it. Like, "Master Chief Vs. Deathstroke", the person should say what weapons MC has, if he has his suit or not, etc.

Sparda says:

"Eh, I figure it comes down to how the person would state it. Like, "Master Chief Vs. Deathstroke", the person should say what weapons MC has, if he has his suit or not, etc."

yup, fine...

MC appeared in comics with his full arsenal, use that as canon information

M

Methos says:

"Warlock360 says:

"id say its legitimate as long as they have the same outside proof like if something happened in a movie then post the part from the movie."

in that case Superman is now immune to Kryptonite (Lois and Clark: New Adventures of Superman. Season 4, Episode 11 he gets an 'immunization shot' from his Kryptonian cousins who survived the explosion)

he is also faster than light. (Lois and Clark, season 3 episode 21)

It's canon because it appeared in an 'official' Superman story... right?

M"

If the persons states at the beginning of the thread "New Adventures Of Superman version of Superman", then yeah....but otherwise, no, I don't think so.
Post Edited:2007-12-09 17:54:34

Sparda says:

"If the persons states at the beginning of the thread "New Adventures Of Superman version of Superman", then yeah....but otherwise, no, I don't think so."

so we set up separate battle threads for different 'canon' characters?

Superman comics, Superman animated, Superman movie 1, superman movie 2, superman movie 3, superman movie 4, superman returns movie, superman smallville, superman lois and clark, superman books, superman games...

where does it stop? they are all the same character, and this is primarily a comic forum.

M

It depends. I think more recent showing are the most important showings. Like Methos said, Sub-Zero vs Superfruit. The MK comics are old as hell so that information can't be used. I think Sub-Zero's godness should be used because it's his main area of creation.

Methos says:

"Warlock360 says:

"id say its legitimate as long as they have the same outside proof like if something happened in a movie then post the part from the movie."

in that case Superman is now immune to Kryptonite (Lois and Clark: New Adventures of Superman. Season 4, Episode 11 he gets an 'immunization shot' from his Kryptonian cousins who survived the explosion)

he is also faster than light. (Lois and Clark, season 3 episode 21)

It's canon because it appeared in an 'official' Superman story... right?

M"

basicly yeah as long as the title of the battle (or whatever comparison) includes or doesnt include something like that such as "Superman vs. Thor" you could basicly use that as an argument and if you have proof that it EVER happened you won (the argument)

Eternal Chaos says:

"It depends. I think more recent showing are the most important showings. Like Methos said, Sub-Zero vs Superfruit. The MK comics are old as hell so that information can't be used. I think Sub-Zero's godness should be used because it's his main area of creation."

but then that actually goes against what happened with Sub Zero's origin story in the comics... so now games are a more 'canon' source of information that the comics?

M

Warlock360 says:

"basicly yeah as long as the title of the battle (or whatever comparison) includes or doesnt include something like that such as "Superman vs. Thor" you could basicly use that as an argument and if you have proof that it EVER happened you won (the argument)"

fine then, if we use that as a basis, Superman owns everyone because of his 'time travel' abilities shown in the first Superman movie

M

I say it should be up to the person who created the thread, to take the extra 2mins and actually flesh out the battle a little. I mean would it kill people to give a little more information besides b vs a, who wins? I'm guilty of this as well. I think if they explain what medium is accepted and what isn't, it would solve the problem. Thats my opinion anyway.
Post Edited:2007-12-09 18:12:06

Methos says:

"Sparda says:

"If the persons states at the beginning of the thread "New Adventures Of Superman version of Superman", then yeah....but otherwise, no, I don't think so."

so we set up separate battle threads for different 'canon' characters?

Superman comics, Superman animated, Superman movie 1, superman movie 2, superman movie 3, superman movie 4, superman returns movie, superman smallville, superman lois and clark, superman books, superman games...

where does it stop? they are all the same character, and this is primarily a comic forum.

M

"

Comics (from the Greek "Κωμικ-ός", kōmikos, of or pertaining to "comedy") is a graphic medium in which words and images are utilised in order to convey a narrative. Comics can contain little or no words, and consist of one or more images, which may either illustrate or counterpoint the text to affect greater depth.

does that mean ANY medium if yes then heres ur answer

Methos says:

"Sparda says:

"If the persons states at the beginning of the thread "New Adventures Of Superman version of Superman", then yeah....but otherwise, no, I don't think so."

so we set up separate battle threads for different 'canon' characters?

Superman comics, Superman animated, Superman movie 1, superman movie 2, superman movie 3, superman movie 4, superman returns movie, superman smallville, superman lois and clark, superman books, superman games...

where does it stop? they are all the same character, and this is primarily a comic forum.

M

"

It doesn't stop, I guess. Perhaps the "off-topic" battles could go into the "off-topic" section, but then stuff gets muddled.

I just had a flashback to the Marvel forums.....oy....

Methos says:

"Eternal Chaos says:

"It depends. I think more recent showing are the most important showings. Like Methos said, Sub-Zero vs Superfruit. The MK comics are old as hell so that information can't be used. I think Sub-Zero's godness should be used because it's his main area of creation."

but then that actually goes against what happened with Sub Zero's origin story in the comics... so now games are a more 'canon' source of information that the comics? M"

It depends on the character. Which came first and which one still exists? The comic, or the game? In his case, it's the game. Another example is Solid Snake from Metal Gear Solid. The game came out first, not the comic and game is still around so it should be considered more canon. However when it comes to comic characters, I.E. Spider-Man or Green Lantern. Their main sources are comics, so the comics should be the canon source.

Sparda says:

"Methos says:

"Sparda says:

"If the persons states at the beginning of the thread "New Adventures Of Superman version of Superman", then yeah....but otherwise, no, I don't think so."

so we set up separate battle threads for different 'canon' characters?

Superman comics, Superman animated, Superman movie 1, superman movie 2, superman movie 3, superman movie 4, superman returns movie, superman smallville, superman lois and clark, superman books, superman games...

where does it stop? they are all the same character, and this is primarily a comic forum.

M

"

It doesn't stop, I guess. Perhaps the "off-topic" battles could go into the "off-topic" section, but then stuff gets muddled.

I just had a flashback to the Marvel forums.....oy...."

xD

Methos says:

"Warlock360 says:

"basicly yeah as long as the title of the battle (or whatever comparison) includes or doesnt include something like that such as "Superman vs. Thor" you could basicly use that as an argument and if you have proof that it EVER happened you won (the argument)"

fine then, if we use that as a basis, Superman owns everyone because of his 'time travel' abilities shown in the first Superman movie

M"

well under the cirumstance that he lost the one he loved and is very angry, but yeah its possible

Warlock360 says:

"Comics (from the Greek "Κωμικ-ός", kōmikos, of or pertaining to "comedy") is a graphic medium in which words and images are utilised in order to convey a narrative. Comics can contain little or no words, and consist of one or more images, which may either illustrate or counterpoint the text to affect greater depth.does that mean ANY medium if yes then heres ur answer"

theres your answer then...

Warlock360 says:

a graphic medium in which words and images are utilised

words are not utilized in Tv shows or movies, to that takes them out of the problem if we go by that ruling

M

Eternal Chaos says:

"Methos says:

"Eternal Chaos says:

"It depends. I think more recent showing are the most important showings. Like Methos said, Sub-Zero vs Superfruit. The MK comics are old as hell so that information can't be used. I think Sub-Zero's godness should be used because it's his main area of creation."

but then that actually goes against what happened with Sub Zero's origin story in the comics... so now games are a more 'canon' source of information that the comics? M"

It depends on the character. Which came first and which one still exists? The comic, or the game? In his case, it's the game. Another example is Solid Snake from Metal Gear Solid. The game came out first, not the comic and game is still around so it should be considered more canon. However when it comes to comic characters, I.E. Spider-Man or Green Lantern. Their main sources are comics, so the comics should be the canon source."

Yeah, I agree with this.

Gambler says:

"I say it should be up to the person who created the thread, to take the extra 2mins and actually flesh out the battle a little. I mean would it kill people to give a little more information besides b vs a, who wins? I'm guilty of this as well. I think he they explain what medium is accepted and what isn't, it would solve the problem. Thats my opinion anyway."

that makes more sense to me... i guess i'll always consider comics the primary source of information and the 'movies / tv shows / games' secondary to that, as long as they don't contradict the primary, comic, source of information

M

okay then lets make a rule that you MUST post the circumstances. like Current Juggernaught vs. Old Juggernaught

Eternal Chaos says:

"It depends on the character. Which came first and which one still exists? The comic, or the game? In his case, it's the game. Another example is Solid Snake from Metal Gear Solid. The game came out first, not the comic and game is still around so it should be considered more canon. However when it comes to comic characters, I.E. Spider-Man or Green Lantern. Their main sources are comics, so the comics should be the canon source.""

I agree with that... to an extent...

but what if the game / tv show / movie is stating something that is contrary to what is known to be true about the character in the comics?

M

or movie based Supes vs. comic based supes

Categorization!

i think its kinda like what ec said. i think that canon should be in whatever medium that character originated in. dragonball z? the manga. buffy? the movie or tv show. star wars? the movies. otherwise i think you should say which version of the character it is.

Apparition says:

"i think its kinda like what ec said. i think that canon should be in whatever medium that character originated in. dragonball z? the manga. buffy? the movie or tv show. star wars? the movies. otherwise i think you should say which version of the character it is."

yup

Methos says:

"Eternal Chaos says:

"It depends on the character. Which came first and which one still exists? The comic, or the game? In his case, it's the game. Another example is Solid Snake from Metal Gear Solid. The game came out first, not the comic and game is still around so it should be considered more canon. However when it comes to comic characters, I.E. Spider-Man or Green Lantern. Their main sources are comics, so the comics should be the canon source.""

I agree with that... to an extent... but what if the game / tv show / movie is stating something that is contrary to what is known to be true about the character in the comics? M"

Well that depends. Like I said it depends on which is the most "canon". Like for Snake, or Subby. If the comics stop coming out for example, but the games continue, or the movies, those become canon for the character.

Eternal Chaos says:

"Methos says:

"Eternal Chaos says:

"It depends on the character. Which came first and which one still exists? The comic, or the game? In his case, it's the game. Another example is Solid Snake from Metal Gear Solid. The game came out first, not the comic and game is still around so it should be considered more canon. However when it comes to comic characters, I.E. Spider-Man or Green Lantern. Their main sources are comics, so the comics should be the canon source.""

I agree with that... to an extent... but what if the game / tv show / movie is stating something that is contrary to what is known to be true about the character in the comics? M"

Well that depends. Like I said it depends on which is the most "canon". Like for Snake, or Subby. If the comics stop coming out for example, but the games continue, or the movies, those become canon for the character."

so if both continue their both legit?

Methos says:

"Eternal Chaos says:

"It depends on the character. Which came first and which one still exists? The comic, or the game? In his case, it's the game. Another example is Solid Snake from Metal Gear Solid. The game came out first, not the comic and game is still around so it should be considered more canon. However when it comes to comic characters, I.E. Spider-Man or Green Lantern. Their main sources are comics, so the comics should be the canon source.""

I agree with that... to an extent...

but what if the game / tv show / movie is stating something that is contrary to what is known to be true about the character in the comics?

M"

To be honest, I don't even know why people are grabbing information from outside of comics, seeing as the Battle forum was mainly used for comic characters and using information from their comic history to sort out who would win. Unless it's stated otherwise, information from outside their usual history shouldn't be used eg. Superman with time travel. Like, how many times has he done that in comics? Never, to my knowledge, compared to the amount of times he has used his strength to lift heavy things.

Warlock360 says:

"or movie based Supes vs. comic based supes"

I don't really see a point to those battle threads. I see movie characters are based from the comic characters of themselves, so movie Superman could basically have one extra power that gives him an advantage; not much of a battle thread, is it?

Ms. Invisible says:

"Methos says:

"Eternal Chaos says:

"It depends on the character. Which came first and which one still exists? The comic, or the game? In his case, it's the game. Another example is Solid Snake from Metal Gear Solid. The game came out first, not the comic and game is still around so it should be considered more canon. However when it comes to comic characters, I.E. Spider-Man or Green Lantern. Their main sources are comics, so the comics should be the canon source.""

I agree with that... to an extent...

but what if the game / tv show / movie is stating something that is contrary to what is known to be true about the character in the comics?

M"

To be honest, I don't even know why people are grabbing information from outside of comics, seeing as the Battle forum was mainly used for comic characters and using information from their comic history to sort out who would win. Unless it's stated otherwise, information from outside their usual history shouldn't be used eg. Superman with time travel. Like, how many times has he done that in comics? Never, to my knowledge, compared to the amount of times he has used his strength to lift heavy things.

Warlock360 says:

"or movie based Supes vs. comic based supes"

I don't really see a point to those battle threads. I see movie characters are based from the comic characters of themselves, so movie Superman could basically have one extra power that gives him an advantage; not much of a battle thread, is it?"

but its something someone "could" create.

Certain characters are tricky to define anyway. Superman's comic power levels vary writer to writer anyway. We also have this issue in the encyclopedia with characters that have been published by multiple companies where I believe the rule is we use the company they are most associated with. That is true of powers too I think. Unless a specific incarnation of a character is stated by the OP, then assume the character's powers are the ones you'd expect them to have.

Warlock360 says:

"Eternal Chaos says:

"Methos says:

"Eternal Chaos says:

"It depends on the character. Which came first and which one still exists? The comic, or the game? In his case, it's the game. Another example is Solid Snake from Metal Gear Solid. The game came out first, not the comic and game is still around so it should be considered more canon. However when it comes to comic characters, I.E. Spider-Man or Green Lantern. Their main sources are comics, so the comics should be the canon source.""

I agree with that... to an extent... but what if the game / tv show / movie is stating something that is contrary to what is known to be true about the character in the comics? M"

Well that depends. Like I said it depends on which is the most "canon". Like for Snake, or Subby. If the comics stop coming out for example, but the games continue, or the movies, those become canon for the character."

so if both continue their both legit?"

But which came first? The story itself is also important. Time lines because if the comic is from the past and the game is from now than that poses a question.

true

Gambler says:

"I say it should be up to the person who created the thread, to take the extra 2mins and actually flesh out the battle a little. I mean would it kill people to give a little more information besides b vs a, who wins? I'm guilty of this as well. I think if they explain what medium is accepted and what isn't, it would solve the problem. Thats my opinion anyway.
Post Edited:2007-12-09 18:12:06"

I didn't read all the posts in this thread but this one caught me. I agree with it. A lot of posters just type "fighter 1 vs fighter 2, who wins?" and they're done. Putting just a little effort into it can sort out a lot of questions (not just one of canon/not canon) that pop up later. You can determine if they're acting in character or bloodlusted, how much time they get, where they're fighting, what gear they have with them, which incarnation of the character, any power limitations, etc, etc. I don't make battles much but usually I include that sort of stuff.

For the canon question I think it depends on what form the character came out in originally. A character made in comics that has tv shows would probably use the comics as canon and everything else as secondary and only useable if it agrees with the comic. A character from a tv show that appears in comics would probably use their tv counterpart to determine what they can do.

There are lots of other questions on canon we could talk about but since this was primarily a comic vs tv/movie/video game thing I'm not going into other stuff.

If the plan is to more clearly seperate the forums in the future, then it would make sense to include some of this (stating versions, rules, scenario etc) as a FAQ or guide for that section.

Buckshot says:

"Gambler says:

"I say it should be up to the person who created the thread, to take the extra 2mins and actually flesh out the battle a little. I mean would it kill people to give a little more information besides b vs a, who wins? I'm guilty of this as well. I think if they explain what medium is accepted and what isn't, it would solve the problem. Thats my opinion anyway.
Post Edited:2007-12-09 18:12:06"

I didn't read all the posts in this thread but this one caught me. I agree with it. A lot of posters just type "fighter 1 vs fighter 2, who wins?" and they're done. Putting just a little effort into it can sort out a lot of questions (not just one of canon/not canon) that pop up later. You can determine if they're acting in character or bloodlusted, how much time they get, where they're fighting, what gear they have with them, which incarnation of the character, any power limitations, etc, etc. I don't make battles much but usually I include that sort of stuff.

For the canon question I think it depends on what form the character came out in originally. A character made in comics that has tv shows would probably use the comics as canon and everything else as secondary and only useable if it agrees with the comic. A character from a tv show that appears in comics would probably use their tv counterpart to determine what they can do.

There are lots of other questions on canon we could talk about but since this was primarily a comic vs tv/movie/video game thing I'm not going into other stuff."

sounds a lot better

Cosmic Sentinel says:

"If the plan is to more clearly seperate the forums in the future, then it would make sense to include some of this (stating versions, rules, scenario etc) as a FAQ or guide for that section."

I think I'll write up some sort of guide once I get on break.

informative