Callisto vs. Cheshire

Callisto vs. Cheshire

Battle

• Win by death, knockout or incapacitation.
• Morals are off for both characters.
• No Blood lust.

Details

• Both characters get basic information on one another.

1. Physical Stats & Powers/Abilities/Capabilities.

• Callisto has her tentacle upgrades for this match.
• No preparation or outside help.

Gear - Callisto

1. 40 throwing knives (twenty in each satchel).

Gear - Cheshire

1. Katana.
2. 10 Shurikens.

• Her weapons have been coated in poison.

Location

• Both start100 feet apart.
• No bystanders.
• Environment is usable if needed.

Bump.

Cheshire look like Orchid from Killer Instinct.

What is the skill level in h2h for Cheshire? Any feats? I don't know anything about the character outside of her wiki page and a very limited respect thread.

What is the skill level in h2h for Cheshire? Any feats? I don't know anything about the character outside of her wiki page and a very limited respect thread.

Callisto.

Callisto.

@Ferro Vida said:

@THUNDERBOLT30 said:

What is the skill level in h2h for Cheshire? Any feats? I don't know anything about the character outside of her wiki page and a very limited respect thread.

She had Nightwing on the ropes at one point.

Thanks. Then it looks like h2h she is far more skilled and would probably take Cal, but under the term of the OP and with their weapons Callisto takes the majority?

Nightwing stalemated her as far as I know, and she has beaten Arsenal, but then beating Arsenal is not the most impressive feat in the world. She was also beaten up badly by some fodder mercenaries, but that was under Simone in Secret Six. So pinch of salt with that.

Calisto.

Cheshire has better agility, master of weaponry, experience and she's far more vicious and deadly, Cheshire wins!!!

@THUNDERBOLT30 said:

What is the skill level in h2h for Cheshire? Any feats? I don't know anything about the character outside of her wiki page and a very limited respect thread.

In her earlier appearances in the Wolfman Perez era of Teen Titans she had some awesome feats. Fighting Donna Troy, Starfire, beating Dick, she beaten many B Grade heroes easily. Soloed the Titans a few times and at least kept up with Slade. Most of these fights were with prep. She basically goes in prepared to face any hero who operates in the area she's taken a hit. Because she took on a hit in NY and it was teh base of OP for the Titans she studied them all in detail and was ready should they intervene. She's also beaten Slade Wilson's wife (who is a top contender because she actually trained Slade in guerrilla warfare ).

her appearances over the last couple of decades however have been crap. She's basically been used as canon fodder. Some of her better feats v v

Gallery

bump

@beatboks1: Thanks. These are impressive and informative. After viewing these, and under the terms of the OP, I am leaning more toward Callisto, but in a pure h2h fight, even without prep, I can see Cheshire beating Callisto pretty badly.

I don't see what anyone is using for proof of Callisto winning? I see people saying "Callisto" but I only see anyone talking about what Cheshire is done.I'm betting there isn't a single skilled characters that Callisto has beaten,stalemated or even given a good fight and by skilled I don't mean someone like Zaran or Razor Fist that is only skilled on paper I mean characters with feats of their own to back up their skill level.

I vaguely remember her doing something in that Arena arc of X-Treme X-Men.

@Vance Astro: I think Callisto could win here under the terms of the OP. In addition to her mutant tacitical ability, with all those tentacles, I can see her catching and relaunching Cheshire's shurikens back at her, in addition to her knife projectiles. Callisto has some pretty good accuracy with her throwing. She demonstrated this during her time in The Arena whe she was doing gladiator combat alongside Storm and hadsome pretty good showings in Excalibur.

Gallery

@Vance Astro: I think Callisto could win here under the terms of the OP. In addition to her mutant tacitical ability, with all those tentacles, I can see her catching and relaunching Cheshire's shurikens back at her, in addition to her knife projectiles. Callisto has some pretty good accuracy with her throwing. She demonstrated this during her time in The Arena whe she was doing gladiator combat alongside Storm and hadsome pretty good showings in Excalibur.

@Vance Astro said:

@THUNDERBOLT30 said:

@Vance Astro: I think Callisto could win here under the terms of the OP. In addition to her mutant tacitical ability, with all those tentacles, I can see her catching and relaunching Cheshire's shurikens back at her, in addition to her knife projectiles. Callisto has some pretty good accuracy with her throwing. She demonstrated this during her time in The Arena whe she was doing gladiator combat alongside Storm and hadsome pretty good showings in Excalibur.

I don't see why the tentacles change anything.Having more limbs to work with doesn't change her level of skill.Which is apparently pretty low considering her lack of feats.

I disagree. I think Callisto is pretty skilled. She is hardly ever used by writers (I think only Claremont, Ellis and Lobdell have used her but it's been years) so she doesn't have a lot to draw on, but she does have some good showings in combat of taking out weaponeers and another military group, asgardian trolls (with just her kicks because her tentacles were paralyzed), defeating varied mutant opposition in gladiator style combat, and she has sparred with Wolverine without him holding back. I agree that the scans show Cheshire being more skilled based on who she is pitted against and them being known for their skill in combat (i.e. - Slade), but that doesn't mean Callisto, who is pretty good in combat, can't get solid hits on her that can KO or kill Cheshire. Plus, in the scans above, doesn't Cheshire have the advantage of prep and familiarity with her targets?

I disagree. I think Callisto is pretty skilled. She is hardly ever used by writers (I think only Claremont, Ellis and Lobdell have used her but it's been years) so she doesn't have a lot to draw on, but she does have some good showings in combat of taking out weaponeers and another military group, asgardian trolls (with just her kicks because her tentacles were paralyzed), defeating varied mutant opposition in gladiator style combat, and she has sparred with Wolverine without him holding back. I agree that the scans show Cheshire being more skilled based on who she is pitted against and them being known for their skill in combat (i.e. - Slade), but that doesn't mean Callisto, who is pretty good in combat, can't get solid hits on her that can KO or kill Cheshire. Plus, in the scans above, doesn't Cheshire have the advantage of prep and familiarity with her targets?

@Vance Astro said:

@THUNDERBOLT30 said:

I disagree. I think Callisto is pretty skilled. She is hardly ever used by writers (I think only Claremont, Ellis and Lobdell have used her but it's been years) so she doesn't have a lot to draw on, but she does have some good showings in combat of taking out weaponeers and another military group, asgardian trolls (with just her kicks because her tentacles were paralyzed), defeating varied mutant opposition in gladiator style combat, and she has sparred with Wolverine without him holding back. I agree that the scans show Cheshire being more skilled based on who she is pitted against and them being known for their skill in combat (i.e. - Slade), but that doesn't mean Callisto, who is pretty good in combat, can't get solid hits on her that can KO or kill Cheshire. Plus, in the scans above, doesn't Cheshire have the advantage of prep and familiarity with her targets?

I'm not saying Callisto isn't skilled at all.I'm just saying it's hard to make a case for what level she's on because she hasn't done much.Just to address the whole "sparring with Wolverine without him holding back", I can only assume that the writer was either underestimating Wolverine or he was only pretending not to hold back because Wolverine holds back even in actual fights with characters that have skill feats of their own to back up the level they're on.I guess I'm saying Callisto loses because I don't know what her advantage is supposed to be.Prep and familiarity don't force a win without the skill and physical ability to execute.

Agreed on her skill level being unclear. I don't know enough about Cheshire to really debate for Cal here as far as their skill levels are concerned, so I see your point.

Claremont wrote that sparring match between Callisto and Wolverine. I don't think either was being underestimated, especially as it wasn't long before this that Logan trained Kitty in martial arts, so I think Claremont established that Logan was already very skilled at that point. There is no question that he would beat Cal but him holding back just for the sake of it doesn't really make sense. I think it was more of showing of Logan's respect for Callisto's capability.

I disagree. I think Callisto is pretty skilled.

@Zoom: Last I checked, my comments were to Vance and not you.

@Zoom: Last I checked, my comments were to Vance and not you.

@THUNDERBOLT30 said:

@Zoom: Last I checked, my comments were to Vance and not you.

If you don't want people to point out your mistakes on the internet, don't post stupid things on the internet.

Agreed on her skill level being unclear. I don't know enough about Cheshire to really debate for Cal here as far as their skill levels are concerned, so I see your point.

Claremont wrote that sparring match between Callisto and Wolverine. I don't think either was being underestimated, especially as it wasn't long before this that Logan trained Kitty in martial arts, so I think Claremont established that Logan was already very skilled at that point. There is no question that he would beat Cal but him holding back just for the sake of it doesn't really make sense. I think it was more of showing of Logan's respect for Callisto's capability.

@Zoom said:

@THUNDERBOLT30 said:

@Zoom: Last I checked, my comments were to Vance and not you.

If you don't want people to point out your mistakes on the internet, don't post stupid things on the internet.

There are no mistakes in my post, only my opinion. The clear stupidity lies in your inability to read the entire conversation with adult comprehension and apparently in how to mind your own business and keep out of others conversations. If you have a problem with me I am more than happy to address it and you in a PM.

@Vance Astro: I am aware of ad agree with that, but I don't see any reasn why he can still fght t his caacityand not haveto kill his opponents, especially we he knows it's a sparring session to begin with. I don't think that "fighting to his capacity" = he has to kill his opposition.

@Vance Astro: I am aware of ad agree with that, but I don't see any reasn why he can still fght t his caacityand not haveto kill his opponents, especially we he knows it's a sparring session to begin with. I don't think that "fighting to his capacity" = he has to kill his opposition.

@Vance Astro: Well I'll stop beating this issue to death lol, since that sparring session is not the only reason I think Cal has a chance here. I will state though, I don't take that sparring session as Callisto being able to literally stand up to or defeat Logan. My only point is that her sparring with him, even if he did dial his attacks back to 8 instead of 10 (I don't think so though), that showing was meant to compliment her ability and not to undermine his. Logan is measure for so many in Marvel, and this is how I took that sparring session. I think your point about her being out-skilled has validity and puts back on the initial fence I was on for this battle, but Callisto has a shot here IMO.

@Zoom said:

@THUNDERBOLT30 said:

I disagree. I think Callisto is pretty skilled.

Remember that time when Storm kicked her but in hand to hand? Storm who like...never fights in hand to hand?

What have you been reading? Storm has been fighting in h2h since she was 5 years old. Also, Callisto underestimated Storm in their first fight and didn't expect her to quickly stab her the first chance she got. The other times she's fought Storm was when she had her elemental powers, which is a complete mismatch. Please learn some basic facts before trying to correct a fan who is all but knowledgeable about the topic you are trying to argue...

@Zoom said:

@THUNDERBOLT30 said:

I disagree. I think Callisto is pretty skilled.

Remember that time when Storm kicked her but in hand to hand? Storm who like...never fights in hand to hand?

This is what I was thinking. Now I know Storm is decent, but she isn't anything spectacular in the world of street levelers as far as pure hand-to-hand goes, whereas Cheshire... I mean, she's not the best, but she's above decent, I'd say..

What have you been reading? Storm has been fighting in h2h since she was 5 years old. Also, Callisto underestimated Storm in their first fight and didn't expect her to quickly stab her the first chance she got. The other times she's fought Storm was when she had her elemental powers, which is a complete mismatch. Please learn some basic facts before trying to correct a fan who is all but knowledgeable about the topic you are trying to argue...

@Vance Astro said:

@Storm Calling said:

What have you been reading? Storm has been fighting in h2h since she was 5 years old. Also, Callisto underestimated Storm in their first fight and didn't expect her to quickly stab her the first chance she got. The other times she's fought Storm was when she had her elemental powers, which is a complete mismatch. Please learn some basic facts before trying to correct a fan who is all but knowledgeable about the topic you are trying to argue...

If you've read every issue she's appeared in, you would find the margin between the times she fights h2h and the times she just uses her powers is huge.

What does this have to do with anything that I replied to? Regardless of the margin she has been shown to be a gifted and crafty fighter. Plus she has an advantage of knowing when they are about to strike. She's led a team of superheroes without her powers and she's grown up being a skilled fight up until the age of maturity. Storm getting a surprise attack on Callisto simply because she underestimated her does not hamper Callisto's skill level one bit.

What does this have to do with anything that I replied to? Regardless of the margin she has been shown to be a gifted and crafty fighter. Plus she has an advantage of knowing when they are about to strike. She's led a team of superheroes without her powers and she's grown up being a skilled fight up until the age of maturity. Storm getting a surprise attack on Callisto simply because she underestimated her does not hamper Callisto's skill level one bit.

@Vance Astro said:

@Storm Calling said:

What does this have to do with anything that I replied to? Regardless of the margin she has been shown to be a gifted and crafty fighter. Plus she has an advantage of knowing when they are about to strike. She's led a team of superheroes without her powers and she's grown up being a skilled fight up until the age of maturity. Storm getting a surprise attack on Callisto simply because she underestimated her does not hamper Callisto's skill level one bit.

The point was if Storm can beat you..you're not that good.

Storm cheap-shotted her though. If you read the battle it was clearly in Callisto's favor from the get go and she could have killed Storm anytime she pleased during that battle. This was not in anyway a even or decent fight. She was talking and mocking Storm the whole time because it was evident that she was outmatched. Storm surprised her by wrapping her hand in her cape and immediately proceeding to stab her in the heart, which was also something Callisto or any of the other X-men never expected.

Storm cheap-shotted her though. If you read the battle it was clearly in Callisto's favor from the get go and she could have killed Storm anytime she pleased during that battle. This was not in anyway a even or decent fight. She was talking and mocking Storm the whole time because it was evident that she was outmatched. Storm surprised her by wrapping her hand in her cape and immediately proceeding to stab her in the heart, which was also something Callisto or any of the other X-men never expected.

@Vance Astro said:

@Storm Calling said:

Storm cheap-shotted her though. If you read the battle it was clearly in Callisto's favor from the get go and she could have killed Storm anytime she pleased during that battle. This was not in anyway a even or decent fight. She was talking and mocking Storm the whole time because it was evident that she was outmatched. Storm surprised her by wrapping her hand in her cape and immediately proceeding to stab her in the heart, which was also something Callisto or any of the other X-men never expected.

That's the only skilled fighter we know that Callisto has had an extended fight with though and she lost.Even if she had beaten Storm it wouldn't be anything to brag about.

I don't follow Callisto so I cannot say but I have seen a few scans outside of her fighting Storm that TB has shown before. Her fight with Storm shouldn't really be counted against her skill and no one expected Storm to do what she did that day to Callisto. The fight lasted all but 5 seconds, if that much. So I hardly consider that an extended fight. She sliced up Storm and dodged all of her attacks and was very overconfident, which allowed Storm the opening she needed to pull off something no one expected.

I don't follow Callisto so I cannot say but I have seen a few scans outside of her fighting Storm that TB has shown before. Her fight with Storm shouldn't really be counted against her skill and no one expected Storm to do what she did that day to Callisto. The fight lasted all but 5 seconds, if that much. So I hardly consider that an extended fight. She sliced up Storm and dodged all of her attacks and was very overconfident, which allowed Storm the opening she needed to pull off something no one expected.

@Vance Astro said:

@Storm Calling said:

I don't follow Callisto so I cannot say but I have seen a few scans outside of her fighting Storm that TB has shown before. Her fight with Storm shouldn't really be counted against her skill and no one expected Storm to do what she did that day to Callisto. The fight lasted all but 5 seconds, if that much. So I hardly consider that an extended fight. She sliced up Storm and dodged all of her attacks and was very overconfident, which allowed Storm the opening she needed to pull off something no one expected.

Her fight with Storm is the longest i've seen with any character that has any training so even if it was only 5 seconds that's longer than she's fought anyone else whom is considered skilled.

That's a fair point but even considering that, Callisto has even more advanced abilities since her fight with Storm and has beaten her before while she used her weather powers if I recall correctly.

@Vance Astro said:

@Storm Calling said:

Storm cheap-shotted her though. If you read the battle it was clearly in Callisto's favor from the get go and she could have killed Storm anytime she pleased during that battle. This was not in anyway a even or decent fight. She was talking and mocking Storm the whole time because it was evident that she was outmatched. Storm surprised her by wrapping her hand in her cape and immediately proceeding to stab her in the heart, which was also something Callisto or any of the other X-men never expected.

That's the only skilled fighter we know that Callisto has had an extended fight with though and she lost.Even if she had beaten Storm it wouldn't be anything to brag about.

I just don't see how the fight with Storm hurts Callisto here or why it's relevant. No one is stating that Callisto is as skilled as Cheshire. She obviously is less skilled than Storm but I only stated that she is pretty skilled in combat based on the few showings that she has, and it's not like Cheshire has superhuman durability or speed. Skill is not the only factor here IMO.

Callisto has the ability to automatically intuit the best tactical ways to defeat her opponents (this ability came after her losses to Storm), and her enhanced physicality and senses could open up various ways to approach her fight here. For example, she has shown the speed to catch numerous projectiles fired at her and Storm with her tentacles and throw them back, counter bullets, and be describes as a blur to the human eye with her movement speed. She also has impressive accuracy with throwing blades, and she demonstrated some competency in h2h techniques agains Raustus and acouple of asgardian trolls, and when she sparred with Logan - holding back or not. From the scans provided of Cheshire, I don't think any of them were as skilled as she is, but this may not even come to h2h, and at that range Cal can still land critical hits even if she is losing. She has a dozen tentacles to grapple, pin limbs, counter and strike, or stick to surfaces to get out of melee range and toss multiple blades or large rock projectiles from th battle area. I'mnot stating she wins, just throwing out what I think she could do here.

I am still on the fence as far who wins here, since your posts give me the impression that Cheshire is s skilled to the point that nothing Callisto could do would allow her to win, but no one is elaborating on what she has done to make it clear, especially if the scans provided are after she has prep and is familiar with her opponent. I think that is not as compelling for a random encounter.

 Callisto has even more advanced abilities since her fight with Storm and has beaten her before while she used her weather powers if I recall correctly.

@Vance Astro said:

@Storm Calling said:

Callisto has even more advanced abilities since her fight with Storm and has beaten her before while she used her weather powers if I recall correctly.

You think that's feasible?

It was pretty feasible considering the situation, and it happened in X-Treme X-men #38 I believe.

It was pretty feasible considering the situation, and it happened in X-Treme X-men #38 I believe.

@THUNDERBOLT30 said:

@Vance Astro said:

@Storm Calling said:

Storm cheap-shotted her though. If you read the battle it was clearly in Callisto's favor from the get go and she could have killed Storm anytime she pleased during that battle. This was not in anyway a even or decent fight. She was talking and mocking Storm the whole time because it was evident that she was outmatched. Storm surprised her by wrapping her hand in her cape and immediately proceeding to stab her in the heart, which was also something Callisto or any of the other X-men never expected.

That's the only skilled fighter we know that Callisto has had an extended fight with though and she lost.Even if she had beaten Storm it wouldn't be anything to brag about.

I just don't see how the fight with Storm hurts Callisto here or why it's relevant. No one is stating that Callisto is as skilled as Cheshire. She obviously is less skilled than Storm but I only stated that she is pretty skilled in combat based on the few showings that she has, and it's not like Cheshire has superhuman durability or speed. Skill is not the only factor here IMO.

Callisto has the ability to automatically intuit the best tactical ways to defeat her opponents (this ability came after her losses to Storm), and her enhanced physicality and senses could open up various ways to approach her fight here. For example, she has shown the speed to catch numerous projectiles fired at her and Storm with her tentacles and throw them back, counter bullets, and be describes as a blur to the human eye with her movement speed. She also has impressive accuracy with throwing blades, and she demonstrated some competency in h2h techniques agains Raustus and acouple of asgardian trolls, and when she sparred with Logan - holding back or not. From the scans provided of Cheshire, I don't think any of them were as skilled as she is, but this may not even come to h2h, and at that range Cal can still land critical hits even if she is losing. She has a dozen tentacles to grapple, pin limbs, counter and strike, or stick to surfaces to get out of melee range and toss multiple blades or large rock projectiles from th battle area. I'mnot stating she wins, just throwing out what I think she could do here.

I am still on the fence as far who wins here, since your posts give me the impression that Cheshire is s skilled to the point that nothing Callisto could do would allow her to win, but no one is elaborating on what she has done to make it clear, especially if the scans provided are after she has prep and is familiar with her opponent. I think that is not as compelling for a random encounter.

Very nice points there, TB. I think you are making a good argument here. And didn't know about several of the feats you pointed out.

@Vance Astro said:

@Storm Calling said:

It was pretty feasible considering the situation, and it happened in X-Treme X-men #38 I believe.

Callisto is a essentially a street level character.Without a variable or plot device Storm would destroy her.I don't know the context of the instance you're speaking of though.

Well basically the fight started close range. Callisto grabbed Storm's leg with one of her tentacles while Storm was distracted by protecting innocents. She blasted her with some sort of elemental attack but it was not effective. Callisto proceeded to toss her into a wall and slam her around.

Storm gave off a few kicks and punches but she was completely overwhelmed by all of the tentacles and was unable to fight her back at all. The only reason Storm escaped was because she summoned a lightning bolt through the roof to break the hold.

@Storm Calling: Thanks. I just don't feel that her past losses to Storm defines her level of skill since she has done quite a bit in Excalibur and X-treme X-men as you mentioned, to show that has had some credible combat progress since then.

@Storm Calling: Thanks. I just don't feel that her past losses to Storm defines her level of skill since she has done quite a bit in Excalibur and X-treme X-men as you mentioned, to show that has had some credible combat progress since then.

Well basically the fight started close range. Callisto grabbed Storm's leg with one of her tentacles while Storm was distracted by protecting innocents. She blasted her with some sort of elemental attack but it was not effective. Callisto proceeded to toss her into a wall and slam her around.

Storm gave off a few kicks and punches but she was completely overwhelmed by all of the tentacles and was unable to fight her back at all. The only reason Storm escaped was because she summoned a lightning bolt through the roof to break the hold.

Gonna give the edge to Callisto because of the tentacles.

@Vance Astro said:

The point was if Storm can beat you..you're not that good.

@JediXMan said:

This is what I was thinking. Now I know Storm is decent, but she isn't anything spectacular in the world of street levelers as far as pure hand-to-hand goes, whereas Cheshire... I mean, she's not the best, but she's above decent, I'd say..

See, I think that Storm is considerably above average and "Decent". She's officially been trained by T'Challa, and Wolverine (and I'm tempted to say the Dora Milajae). Storm held her own against the Dora Milajae...without her powers. She took on several new mutants...who had powers...and won...without powers. She used her environment, and her agility. I'm not saying that Storm can imitate Iron Fists feats or anything like that. However, she is a beast..................................which is why her fans have been b****ing and complaining for quite some time now

@Vance Astro said:

@Storm Calling said:

Well basically the fight started close range. Callisto grabbed Storm's leg with one of her tentacles while Storm was distracted by protecting innocents. She blasted her with some sort of elemental attack but it was not effective. Callisto proceeded to toss her into a wall and slam her around.

Storm gave off a few kicks and punches but she was completely overwhelmed by all of the tentacles and was unable to fight her back at all. The only reason Storm escaped was because she summoned a lightning bolt through the roof to break the hold.

I guess it's feasible in that case but not really commendable.

Did I also tell you Callisto caused the innocents to be under distress? She tossed a bunch of knives from each tentacle at Storm and the people around her and Storm was forced to defend herself and the others in danger. Callisto used this to her advantage by using that time to close the gap in between the two to fight in h2h range. She used her tentacles to counter Storm's sneak attacks and was quite skilled at using the knives with random tentacles to puncture Storm. Indicating that she was very capable of multitasking during their fight with all of those tentacles. The fact that Storm couldn't beat her in h2h makes it all the more commendable.