CA1 Tourney: RND 1: darkseid1006 VS beatboks1 (closed)

The Marvel VS. DC Tourney!!!

It's happening again!!!!!!!

The Scenario!!!!!

Quite simply once again The Grandmaster and Krona are creating havoc on a grand abstract scale

and our heroes and villains from each prospective Universe have been throw into contests to prove their universe is worthy sparing of annihilation. Each team believes that if they win, they will obtain the power item for their universe. The prospective universe teams that obtains the most power items presents them at the end of the tournament and saves the day (or in the villains case, win control!!!)

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each team sees their power item suspended in the sky of every match, similar to this:

The Rules of engagement!!!!!

• NO BFR FOR WIN, however may be used in a battle as an element as applicable. Just not for a win
• Standard gear as applicable, and this is MORALS OFF characters
• No Timetravel or Time manipulation (disabled for this thread....Time manip allowed)
• No insta-kill one shots (this would include complete mind rape. none of that for the win for you TP users)
• speaking of TP / Psychic abilities here..........no completely controlling / KO an opponent. Influencing, illusions, weakening, confusing, yada yada yada.....fine
• molecular rearrangement / matter manipulation. May be used to alter organics but NOT against your opponents body, anything else if fair game.......(environment, etc.....)
• Summoning minions. Limited. Inquire for adjudication.
• NO PREP!!!! Muahahahaha!!!!
• Starting distance = 10 miles apart.
• Win is KO / incapacitation / death of opponent

The Battlefield Location!!!!!

a dying planet chosen as neutral ground for the tourney. It is similar to earth in all ways. just on it's last legs. It is uninhabited. However there are empty cities and structures all throughout the planet along with the typical oceans, deserts, mountain ranges, forests, etc....

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The Contestants in this Battle!!!

Beatboks1 (DC Team)

Arion, High Lord of Atlantis and Brainwave Jr.

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VS.

Darkseid1006 (Marvel Team)

The Ghost Rider Team! (Johnny Blaze/Zarathos & Ketch/Noble composite)

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The Perks store!!!!

each team is allowed to select ONE of the following perks for the battle. Read and choose carefully:

• TP resistance (5 min duration) for only one team member.
• Invisibility (one team member affected. 30 sec duration)
• Teleportation generator. (one team member only, can only be used once!)
• Invulnerability!!! (think Mario's star!) 10 sec duration (resistant to EVERYTHING!)
• Nullify!!! Negates a specified opponents abilities for 5 seconds.... (includes perks!)
• Pre-Cog flashes! 2 min duration......
• Refraction!!! opponents attack bounce back! use x1 time in a battle, any time of choosing
• "cosmic awarenesss" insight! x1 in a battle, one member uses it only (duration 2 seconds)
• Magic Immunity! (30 sec duration) (one team member)
• Time Freeze! (I said no time manip in OP, well this is the only way to get it!!! 2 sec duration.....area of effect......50 foot radius bubble in all directions......use wisely and carefully if chosen)

@beatboks1@darkseid1006: ok, up and running gentlemen, good luck! let me know which perk you select!

@cosmicallyaware1: what??? No penance state for Ghost Rider?

Also if you attack and they bounce it back at you with a perk can you then bounce that back at them?

@beatboks1 do you want to start or should I?

@cosmicallyaware1: I'm curious why the ban on time travel. Time manipulation I understand but time travel just seems a little strange. I mean the only ridiculous things that time travel presents are time manipulation. For example you couldn't attack an enemy as a child that would be time manip.

Only reason I'm asking is let's face it my main powerhouse (such as he is) is from 5000 + years ago. every potential boon he could even think to attain to make him on par with every other character in the tourney is now denied since he can't even gain access to them.

for the most part I set general guidelines to follow in the OP. I completely see you point and agree with you in this case for your battle. I'll take away that restriction. So go ahead, and I'll edit the OP man. How's everything else look?

ya, GR has penance stare. Just no insta kill with it, and not to mind rape opponents. Questionable if would even work against either of these guys though..........good luck!

Fine. Like I said it was just the lack of available power for Arion. I mean when he met Superman in action comics after being thrown into the future he went (with Superman's help) to Atlantis and found only one of the power sticks with his fathers essence still there. Since it's in his character to pretty much use everything he has and expend all his energy to win the day ( as he did in his first battle with his brother, as he did in destroying the entity devouring the sun who caused the ice age, as he did when he attained his fathers citadel and it's power and then expended it all in another battle with his brother trapping him in his own soul, etc etc etc) In all likelihood I have one battle with him powered at original power level, and one with him able to cast one powerful spell using the one and only power stick still around (AND THAT would be assuming this battle takes place before that action story).

Would have sort of left me screwed wouldn't it. Especially since I can't win by BFR and the only other way for him to get power is to either take the battle to the darkworlds and use his ability to draw power from his mothers realm or get very close to a bloody star to fill his star jewel with light for power. After all there is no way in the midst of battle he can go off and summon the weaver to tie the many colored threads to his soul again ( or get a friendly entity to coerce the Weaver to do so), or without time travel even get to his fathers citadel which he destroyed to use it's power centuries ago - the only other ways he returned to having power.

@cosmicallyaware1: ahh dude I would re-edit OP. Only eliminate time travel not time manip from the banned options. Not that time manip is something Arion practices ever in character but still he is capable at certain levels.

I don't want to be given anything other than a fair and even playing field

gotcha, done and understood.

@beatboks1: @cosmicallyaware1: So wait time travel is allowed but time manip isn't right?

Also I will get my opener up in about 7 hours (I'm in school) so yeah let's do this... ;)

that's what I asked for cosmic has accidentally written it the other way

all cool. start when you want. I'm going to start with a brief overview of Arion to give some perspective to his ability (since he's the one least likely to be known)

Arion is the son of two Atlantian "gods". his father was Calculhah a lord of light and his mother was dark Majestra mistress of darkworld. Centuries before the Atlantian empire there was a meeting of all the lords of power over a threat that Calculhah had perceived. one of the lords or power was trying to link all the places of power on Earth and take it all for themselves. this would have caused the destruction of all life on the planet. he called all the lords there to set defense plans in place and to let the one responsible. To the surprise of Calculhah his meeting didn't prevent anything it just brought it forward. While the meeting was in session the attack was launched by non e other than his wife.

Calculhah and Majestra engaged and Calculhah was about to loose when his young Son Arion lept to his defense. an act that saved Calculhah's life defeated Defeated Majestra but left you Arion dying. Calculhah wouldnt allow it and boded his sons essence to a star making him one of the celestial bodies. centuries later Arion would return to a mortal human form with little knowledge of his past. The jewel he wears around his neck is the star jewel that acts as a battery of power to fuel his magic and is charged by the power of light,

Arion is a mage of great resource and knowledge (particularly of the old magic) but limited energy. He is however a very driven individual who will usually go to far greater lengths than most to achieve victory.

When his Brother Garn Danauth first attacked and defeated the armies of Atlantis Arion chased him down and used vast energy against his minions. After expending such Garn caught his brother (who at this time didn't know his history or that they were brothers) by surprise and was able to entrap him in a deep cavern far away from the light (his source of power) and chained with Oraculum (later revealed to be an Atkantian name for Nth metal) that was immune to the effects of magic. Arion used all his magic to attempt escape. Hi father while weak sensing his plight moved a star into a position that allowed it's light to reach him in the cavern and was much closer. Because of the boost of the star being closer (and only because of it) Arion was able to absorb light energy from all over the universe. Using this boost he easily defeated his brother.

his next battle with his brother leaves his father dying and again Arion puts everything he has into a last ditch gambit again leaving him without power. The only vestages of power remaining to him are sticks his father blessed with a portion of his power that he can use to call on his fathers spirit and work overt magic one at a time.

the enxt time they face his brother had taken Atkantis while Arion was searching for his fathers citadel in the darkworlds. Having found it and his fathers heritage (the citadel being his place of power) he makes the citadel mobile and brings it back to Atlantis to again defeat his brother with it's power expending it all.

when he faced an entity who was devouring the energy of the sun who caused the ice age who threatened his people he chose to overload it by feeding it every bit of power he had until it couldn't take any more. The result was that the entity died and he was left powerless. while powerless this time he still fought for his people. he was limited to illusions and his psionic (Clairvoyance/danger sense, TP.TK).

he eventually summoned the weaver to link him to the many colored threads to return his power.

@beatboks1@darkseid1006: sorry guys. For clarification..............Time travel and Time manipulation ARE BOTH allowed for this, however if I feel it's outta bounds/not cool then I will make an adjudication. Cool?

ok but I think it should JUST be time travel.

only intending on if the shit hits the fan and I have to go all out on Arion too early (and expend his energy ) ducking back to ancient atlantis to get one or two of Calculhah's power sticks

@beatboks1: rock it out man, I've never seen represent Arion before, only speak about him. I am familiar with the character however, don't think many know him though.

I associate a lot of characters (and especially arcs/covers) fondly with my youth, and this is one of my valued issues

@beatboks1: @cosmicallyaware1: ok really sorry for the inconvenience but I was in the woods with some friends trying to set up a rope swing and the branch gave way beneath me :/ so I fell quiet a way and have lots of cuts scrapes and what the doctor thinks is a broken arm so I may not be too active. I would suggest BeatBoks going first

@cosmicallyaware1: yeah last time I used Arion was http://thecomicsledger.proboards.com/thread/4097/scenario-fight-dedmanwalkin-beatboks here

alright man. the thread's been up for 2 days and nobody has done their main intro's and opener yet. Let's get moving gentlemen......

@cosmicallyaware1: what do you think that long post prior to yours of the cover of Arion fighting his brother Garn in front of the dark god was ??? An intro to Arion that's what.

Intro int BW Jnr will be coming after work and brief strategy

@beatboks1: @cosmicallyaware1: ok I'm on my way to school so when I get back ill get it up. Without falling out of a tree this time ;)

lol, yeah I know.....i was looking for something more spectacular I guess.......

@cosmicallyaware1: @darkseid1006:

Hank King Jnr - son of the original Brain wave.

Hank started out with powers much like his fathers but not to that degree. When his father pulled him to the dimension of Limbo to save him from Ultra and later fought Ultra and was killed when UH distracted Henry King Snr by attacking his son BW Snr was killed. As a parting gift he gave his son his power (added to hanks own). After this Hank easily defeated in TP Battle the Ultra Humanite. A very pertinent feat since just moments before we saw that Ultra was the Equal of hanks father in every way. As Brainwave Snr's feats include TP pushing Spectre to do as he wanted ( All Star Squadron 20), and TP making large masses from all over the globe see what he wanted them to see (All Star Comics 58/9).

Hanks own feats

TP probing all of earth to find the manhunters in Millenium (5 IIRC)

Breaching Black Adam's mind which even MMH said was too strong (during 52)

mentally dominating two whole armies to stand and face each other and shoot themselves down to the last man (also 52 or WWIII)

TP had Maxima on the ropes with his sheer mental power being too much for her ( Extreme Justice 17) in issue 18 she took the rest of the team into his mind and they were able to help him face his problems.

Arion Powers with his magic exhibits the following pwoers

• Intangibility
• invisibility
• illusions
• mild clairvoyance
• danger sense
• spells of knowledge - eye of ra
• energy (light) manipulation - blasts and shields
• dimensional travel
• Time travel
• control of weather and elements.

Brainwave powers

• TP
• TK
• mind blasts
• project his thoughts 3 dimensionally to create people of things with substance

Opening Strategy

Using Arions illusions combined with hanks thought projections my team will create life like decoys of themselves that will be near where our staring point is.

Arion will open a portal the darkworlds where he will use the eye of Ra spell to learn all he can about his opponents.

@cosmicallyaware1: @beatboks1: So heres my opener (for my intro i am only posting the standard Ghost Rider powers and basic knowledge i don't want to us any good scans yet)
Well then here it is...

Some basic info on GR's

So i could give you the origins and all but I'm going to concentrate on 2 main points.
For the first one ill let Dr Strange speak for me...

And this is the next point...

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The Spirit's of Vengance (SoV's) where made by God
So that should give you all the info you need on these 2 guys.

Powers and Abilities

So here I'm just going with the generic GR abilities.

Hellfire

So this is one of the most iconic abilities the GR's possess and here i will show you what it is and how it can be used

The Penance Stare

This is defiantly the most effective weapon a GR has . Just remember contrary to popular belief it has and can work on good guys (it effects you if you have ever done a wrong dead which everyone has)
Heres the son of Mephisto explaining what this does.

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Penance stare turns a angle to ash and bones

Dimension/Time Travel

So this is one of the standard GR powers too.

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Using hellfire a GR decides to teleport his enemies to hell through hellfire

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Proof GR's can time travel

Chains

Another one of the GR's weapons are his chains which can be used for a number of uses which i will show below.

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Can be used as ranged weapons by splitting up into sections

Durability/Regeneration

GR's can take hits from heavy hitters but are really famous for their ability to regenerate from any injuries sustained (especially in SoV control)

Well sorry i was cut short but that pretty much covers my guys your move

@darkseid1006:

Just remember contrary to popular belief it has and can work on good guys (it effects you if you have ever done a wrong dead which everyone has)

this is your first mistake. Arion has no such "wrong deeds". His entire history is nothing but self sacrifice. His first act in adolescence was to sacrifice his life to save all existence on earth. He pushes himself beyond his limits every single time there is a threat that must be faced. even when his brother Garn killed there father (who Arion worshiped) Arion still could not bring himself to kill his brother (not even when Garn's actions threatened thousands and not even after he had destroyed hundreds of thousands of innocents (including the family and village of one of Arion's closest friend Wynde). No instead when Arion fought Garn to keep him from harming others without taking his like Arion trapped his essence within himself. Penance stare sin't going to affect Arion at all.

Now BW is a commpletely different story, he has done dark things. He has also literally lost his marbles. When this happened he even had alternative personas in him, one of which was an aspect of his father which was able to Psionically stomp Maxima. Throwing the penance stare at Hank King might just back fire and mean your facing a much more powerful bloodlusted metnal powerhouse.

Courtesy of Arion using the Eye of ra spell my team will have intimate knowledge before they engage of your team. your team will start of engaging the illusions of Arion and the mental projections of BW. Hanks mental projections are as real as any villain the riders could face and wont have anything for a penance stare to affect (something the riders wont know). in BW Snr's first encounter with the JSA in All Star comics his mental projections actually physically fought all the then JSA including Spectre. they bound WW and all the JSAers girl friends and carried them away. Snr gave all his power to his son. in Extreme Justice when hank attacked EJ with the "injustice Society it was revealed afterward that none of the villains were even there. In fact a few of them were dead at the time and others were incarcerated.

Add this to the fact that with Arion's magic the very forces of nature like the wind and rain can be fighting you, I can attack you in multiple ways without ever getting close to you for you to bring hell fire, penance stare etc to the fray

@beatboks1: Ill get round to the rest later but for now ill tell you that even the slightest thing like ever fighting someone is what allows the penance state to work (even if it was for a good cause) so yeah Arion will be effected.

Also you do realise these 2 GR's have feats to prove that they can easily shrug of the illusions and resist any telepathic powers (ill put them up later)

@beatboks1: oh off topic now: I recently entered a tourney with a team that you picked

Vic sage

Alan Scott

Obsidian

Arion

Brainwave Jr.

Vril Dox

Now I chose this because I am good with Alan Scott and Obsidian and I know ill be getting stuff for Arion and Brainwave from this but I was wondering if you could give me things for Brainiac 2 and The Question (I have already looked through your pics but it is hard to make sense of without proper categorisation) maybe scans of what they can do or links to where you have used them before?

@darkseid1006: you do realize that BW's projections are as real as a GL's constructs right?? Shrugging off his thought projections won't happen because Spectre couldn't and he's better than GR's at that type of thing. I also never mentioned using TP, even if I had BW Jnr breached the mind of Black Adam that even MMH couldn't ( in 52 and WWIII respectively). BW Snr actually made Spectre do what he wanted in All Star squadron 20. Snr gave all his power to Jnr when he died and ASS was Snr's lowest ever level. I doubt anyone can prove categorically that they can block BW's TP considering his feats of breaching strong TP defense.

Te you query I haven't been able to load scans successfully for almost 4 weeks with all the crap happening on CV.

Dox

Super genius who has defeated greater genius than himself, defeated galactic empires like Kund and dominion with strategy, effectively conquered hole systems of space.

His standard gear includes equipment that counters turnovers of almost every member of his team should they turn on him. He has made implants that allow him to completely control the mind of another, energy dampen era that such high level energy manipulator a or make their power over load. He has genetically altered lobo to neuter his healing Factor and genetically altered himself to be a match for Lobo. Created time

Cages that could trap even wave rider ( gave up on time research after that once wave rider showed him his dark future)

As for Vic aside from great martial artist with a reasonable showing vs Shiva ( after training by Richard Dragon) also became an urban shaman capable if illusions and mystic senses plus spirit battle ( attacking the soul of another)

@beatboks1: ok good thanks for the info

So lets get this moving its my turn to put down the main battle and all then it's your turn.

Also there is a way you could put up scans...

If when you want to post scans (it has to be from a website like your comic vine profile or photo bucket or something) you could give me the URL and mark out where thy would go and I could queot your post and add them in for you. Would that work?

post number 15 on this thread shows plenty about Brainwave Snr's mental projections. post 18 of the same thread actually shows Jnr was even more powerful than his father after absorbing/being gifted his power.

here is the dying BW Snr gifting his immense mental power to his son (courtesy of google images)

http://www.cosmicteams.com/jsa/profiles/images/brainwave-infinity-inc-10.jpg

.this thread has plenty of stuff for both Arion and BW Jnr. It should also be of particular interest to you as it is the team you picked in the other tourney in action. Not sure how I ended up taking that one really cause Mr I had a much more powerful team.

@beatboks1: @cosmicallyaware1: Well heres my main post.

The first point id like to tackle is the illusions and mental projections that you claim will be effective against my team.

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So this is Jonny Blaze going up against a kid with mental abilities and you will see that when he was Blaze he was effected by this kids metal holds but as soon as the Ghost Rider took over and latter in the battle the kid also said that he could not control him and that none of his powers where effective against him. To put the feat into perspective this TP kid had so much physic power that he actually managed to raise the dead and actually managed to make his physic power a sentient storm made out of pure physic energy that was able to be effective on the physical plane as well. The kid also hid himself telepathically from professor X.

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Ketch vs Brood and Brood Queen. The Brood Queen implanted Ketch with whatever they implant you with that allows the Brood Queen to control your mind. Of course GR is immune.

Ghost Riders have also fought Mephisto who is a very powerful telepath himself

He tanked a full on bolt from Phsycklocke (can't spell) without even flinching. Her bolts where powerful enough to break through the helmets defences on Juggernaut (Proff X failed to do this with his telepathy)

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Nightmare can see into everyone's minds and uncover everything through nightmares and dreams but he can gather nothing from Ketch

So my point is here (i think Classic Strange may have at one point used illusions on Ghost Rider but Blaze managed to still get too the real Dr Strange) that the Ghost Riders may never have actually come up against any telepaths like Brainwave but they have came up against beings close (the kid,Mephisto,Blackheart etc) who have decided not to use it,implying it does not work, or just utterly failed to do anything. So these guys have been up against powerful TP users and have been unaffected so until they are effected by TP then they are pretty much immune.

So now for the second point

@beatboks1 said:

I would like to warn you that just by saying the Spectre couldn't shrug it off does not make it a feat in fact I'm pretty sure that that in All Star Squadron comics at that point Jim Corrigan Spectre showed no solid TP resistance feats it was only prior to that that we see Martian Manhunter nearly KO himself just by looking into the mind of the Spectre (admittedly Arion did mindrape MM but it is still a feat). What I'm trying to say is Spectre only developed TP feats prior to this instance and at the time had none so that is not a valid feat.

Next that MMH vs BA was PIS (along with most of that storyline) and what really proves that is that a couple of issues before MM managed to enter his mind. Also if you must know actually what happened was MM seemed very relaxed and was surprised by BA's mind strength only allowing his hold on BA to be released just enough so that Adam struggled to say SHAZAM that was what took MM out. So if anything that just means MM underestimated Adam and was surprised by the resistance he put up.

So yes i am going to say that TP will not work on the GR brothers however if the mental projections are physical not just physic then yes they will be effective but i have a way around that and here it is...

How do you expect to manage this before the GR's catch up to you and start attacking??? There is only a 10 mile gap and both GR's could make that in about 1-2 seconds.

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GR's hit the hypersonic barrier crossing entire oceans in seconds and flying across Africa at super speeds. These guys could mow your two down before they could get a spell or projection in i mean heres another speed feat thats even more impressive.

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Blaze outpaces Mjolnir which has constantly been stated to be FTL speeds when Thor throws it.

So by now we know that almost all mental attacks would fail and that your two guys wouldn't be able to use the few that would work because they would be rammed by bikes going at near light speed but lets say that somehow they manage to get these projections out and are now using them on GR's what type of power are they packing because i can assure you that it will fall short when facing these 2.

They will need to be more effective than World War Hulk as not even he was able to put Ghost Rider down for a while and trust me if you do manage to temporally take one out you'll be in a worse position than you where before you put it down. (Sorry for the awful scan layout I'm having trouble posing blocks of scans)

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Oh and if one of the scans is still not working this is what it was

So now it took WWH 13 panels of beating on Blaze to finally put him down and that was only for a second to which Zarathos the true power of GR came into power. How did he respond? simple he decimated a large chunk of the city with a hellfire nova (that managed to burn of skin from Hulk and make him cry out in pain) and left splitting clean through a tank on his way. This again proves that when the GR's use there bikes initially to get to the fight they can cut clean through either of your team. So if you manage to put down one of the GR's your going to end up with anything with in what looks to be a mile radius is obliterated (mental projections gone) and unless Arion can react fast enough to shield himself from the explosion your team is now BBQ.

But going on a very big assumption again lets say that they do manage to survive you are not against Jonny Blaze and Danny Ketch anymore... you are now fighting Noble Kale and Zarathos the SoV's.

Trust me these guys are going to completely obliterate your team now and below is proof.

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So notice how Ghost Rider was fighting fairly even with Sorcerer Supreme Dr Strange until he got serious and smashed him with his magic but right after Zarathos comes out and completely stomps Strange with chains and penance stare.

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So notice how he was losing to a avatar of Luicifer until he let Zarathos take over to which he then stomped him badly (if you want to know this guys power level he did more damage to GR in 8 pages than WWH did in 13)

But even these are low showings for a SoV here is their true power.

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So Mephsto vs Zarathos

If you read it you will realise that the only reason Mephisto won was by making a plan to depower Zarathos (proving that he believes he could not do it using his own power)

And that was only Zarathos you still need to fight Noble Kale who IMO has even better feats!!!

So now this is Dan/Noble Kale
EDIT
So lets get back to this shall we

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Kale vs a demon called the highway man. He stomps him horribly and then burns him to a crisp with hellfire.
This isn't really that great a feat in fact i only posted it because it clearly shows how well he heals after he gets smashed apart by the truck.

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A Angel called Uriel (equal in power to mephisto) is humbled by Zarathos

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Noble Kale vs Mephisto's son, Blackheart, and he completely stomps him even in his own realm.
To shed some light on this feat this is what Blackheart is capable of...

Mephisto vs Blackheart (the first battle)

http://i1081.photobucket.com/albums...BHSquished1.jpg

http://i1081.photobucket.com/albums...BHSquished2.jpg

http://i1081.photobucket.com/albums...BHSquished3.jpg

http://i1081.photobucket.com/albums...HReforming1.jpg

http://i1081.photobucket.com/albums...HReforming2.jpg

http://i1081.photobucket.com/albums...t/BHAnnoys1.jpg

http://i1081.photobucket.com/albums...t/BHAnnoys2.jpg

Look how Mephisto throws all he has at Blackheart and it is all to no avail as he keeps reforming (in the end he cursed him so that he couldn't use his powers without going insane)

They fight again

http://i1081.photobucket.com/albums...t/BHMansUp1.jpg

http://i1081.photobucket.com/albums...t/BHMansUp2.jpg

http://i1081.photobucket.com/albums...t/BHMansUp3.jpg

http://i1081.photobucket.com/albums...t/BHMansUp4.jpg

And again

http://i1081.photobucket.com/albums...t/BHVsMeph1.jpg

http://i1081.photobucket.com/albums...t/BHVsMeph2.jpg

http://i1081.photobucket.com/albums...t/BHVsMeph3.jpg

http://i1081.photobucket.com/albums...t/BHVsMeph4.jpg

And then one more time

http://i1081.photobucket.com/albums...attlesMeph1.jpg

http://i1081.photobucket.com/albums...attlesMeph2.jpg

http://i1081.photobucket.com/albums...attlesMeph3.jpg

http://i1081.photobucket.com/albums...attlesMeph4.jpg

http://i1081.photobucket.com/albums...attlesMeph5.jpg

In all of these scans Blackheart was able to match Mephisto (par the first set) and in some even gain the upper hand and Noble Kale managed to beat this guy with such ease!!! That is the kind of power your dealing with here. Also if you want to know what Mephisto can do then ill show you.

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Galactus vs Mephisto (in his hell realm)
Galactus himself couldn't even overpower Mephisto as shown and a fight that that had caused entire galaxies to fall apart and shake.
In fact Galactus had to resort to absorbing Mephisto's realm to win.

Summary

1. Most of your mental attacks will be useless against the GR bro's and any that are useful will only seek to be your downfall
2. Your team will not be able to react quick enough to put up any defences before the GR's have captured or killed them
3. Your team can only attempt to beat my team by first beating the human rider and then having to beat the SoV
4. You have absolutely no way of keeping down my guys

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Scans 1-2: Kale gets turned into liquid by a high tech laser and reforms as if nothing has happened
Scan 3: Zarathos has his head shattered, reforms it
Scan 4-7: SS Dr Strange gets pi*sed of and puts down Blaze, SoV takes over and he reforms
5. My guys clearly have the power to push your 2 into the ground and thats even without penance stare which will easily be able to put Brainwave on the floor crying and will defiantly be able to harm Arion (Arion defeated his brother right? well that caused his brother pain and just because of that that means that the PS will effect Arion regardless of wether it was for a good cause or not)

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Scan 1: PS from Danny smacks Jonny out of his GR form
Scan 2: PS works on Dr Strange
Yes these guys have both done bad things but i mean GR's are angels and they only cause harm to the evil (meaning that they are not only creations of god but they are purposely designed to fight evil in fact they dont harm innocent so they do do the stuff for good reasons but it doesn't matter PS still works on them)

Your Move!!!

@beatboks1: I was only using that as a precaution for if you did decide to use illusions or mental assault if you read on I actually admit that the constructs could work and that they would only serve to eventually torn the GR's form human control to SoV control.

Yeah but how many of them are actually notably above any of the people that these 2 have resisted? Because I think you're struggle to find any that are above The Kid, Mephisto, Blackheart, or Xavier because that's the kind of TP league where talking about now.

@darkseid1006: sorry mate I'm only half read your post as I was stopped in traffic and dictated reply to Siri. When I read the next part of your post at the next set of lights and saw you asked not to reply toll you'd finished I delete the post that you obviously just replied.

For the record anyone reading through the link to the other thread where I used Arion the scans of him taking on phantom stranger wonder woman and Etrigan and are invalid. At the time I got them off a respect thread and have since read the issue it wasn't with his own power but he was powered by Morgan Le fey

@darkseid1006: I'll get to your other points later but on the issue of Spectre's TP resistance in issue 2 of all star comics Kulak couldn't control him

http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/All-Star_Comics_Vol_1_2

That's the same kulak who in issue 27 and 28 of All Star Squadron could control every man woman and child on earth to the point they were trying to kill even those they loved.

In the same issue he was also able to control Spectre due to having possession of the ring of life that has always granted the wearer control of Spectre. The control of the world was not due to the ring

@beatboks1: ok fair enough he's a powerful telepath but still only on te level of Xavier and stuff but we've come a bit off topic now as I have already excepted that the mental projections can't be shrugged off.

@darkseid1006: in all honesty while in attack he might be Xavier/MMH level he has no where near their level defense. if you look at the history of Hank King he can breach most things he can't protect himself from the minds of others any where near as well. that's why realistically i wont be going too hard in TP assault on the minds of my adversaries. For one thing it's against the rules but realistically it could bite me in the bum with my incredibly powerful TPer being overcome by the emotions or dark thoughts of others (think what happened to MMH in WWIII times a very large Number since Hank while his level assault is leagues behind in defense.

the projections will keep the riders occupied while Arion uses the eye of ra Spell to learn as much as he can about the riders. once he has learned enough he will commence his attack on them. when he does Hank will also personally start getting into the mix. Hank will commence his attack with his patented brain blasts. The same blasts that in Infinity Inc 1 shattered the constructs of Alan Scot and sent him flying. I doubt either of the riders will fair any better against the force his brain blasts produce. Using the same brain blasts in his debut appearance in all star Squadron he easily blew a wall out of Tarantula's apartment. Suffice it to say I doubt either of the riders will be left unperturmed by his assault.

Arion will attack them with the elements themselves.

Control wind and control minds

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/3/30145/2197692-arion_pre_senses_danger_e.jpg

Here Arion fights a dark lord (similar to a hell lord) During a period when he himself was depowered. He was able to use the power around him *which came form the very being he was fighting) to mount his attacks.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/3/30145/2179262-arion_takes_blast_from_abstract_beings_1.jpg

blasts and shields multiple targets at once. Also another example of the eye of Ra

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/3/30145/2181271-arion_sense_dager.jpg

here is an example of why the penance stare will have no affect on Arion

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/3/30145/2177750-11.jpg

he puts what is right above everything even his mother. Even above attaining revenge on his brother for killing their father.

I'll come back with some more tomorrow

Good luck trying beat beatboks1 in a debate lol

@cosmicallyaware1: @beatboks1:

Trying? The plan is succeeding ;)

Well better get started then...

Well actually there are a lot of points in this paragraph.

Well actually thats where your wrong .
Firstly how are the projections going to keep the GR's busy if A. You didn't have time to get them up before the GR's put them down in the first few seconds using there bike speed (you still have not countered this offence) or B. the fact that the GR bro's should easily be able to take down the projections

Gallery

Ghost Riders hellfire alone could put multiple mental projections on the floor and seeing as Brainwave is particularly evil it should actually destroy most of them.

Gallery

And as you can see it can be used effectively as a more area based attack meaning that it could damage multiple projections per blast

Gallery

And if thats not good enough then Ketch can actually create avatars of himself out of hellfire allowing them to match the projections while these 2 go straight for Brainwave and Arion (admittedly this was Danny Ketch when amped after absorbing other GR's power but at this time he no longer had Noble Kale controlling and i chose composite Ketch so this feat still applies) These avatars where as powerful as the standard Ghost Riders as that is where he got the power to make them from.
So BW's mental projections will not be keeping the GR bro's busy in fact Ketch will just create his avatars and leave them to their own devices and let them destroy BW's mental projections.

Secondly there is the brain blasts that your claiming can damage the GR's and i completely agree. I mean if they shatter Alan Scotts constructs (defiantly the most powerful GL) then what will they do to a GR??? Shatter the head? Shatter the body? Is that really a good idea as iv already shown that this type of damage is the least effective strategy to deploy on a GR you already know why right? Well whenever a GR sustains damage on this level the SoV takes over and they heal. So by using powerful attacks you have just unleashed Kale and Zarathos even quicker than what time it would usually have taken for the SoV to take control.

Well seeing as you have unleashed the SoV's the elements are not going to be doing squat to these 2 anymore.
Well them shields are not protecting anything on the level of what these guys are packing so that feat is kind off useless and unless the blasts that he was firing where sufficient enough to be above another hell lord level being called Nightmare then they are also useless.

Gallery

Nightmare attacks Kale with all he has and it still can't finish him. (this was in nightmares realm too hence why he was able to keep GR down for so long)

However no shield can protect Arion from the PS
And once again NO...
The penance stare will work on Arion and here is why.

Gallery

Scan 1: Blaze explains the PS and says any pain and suffering you have ever inflicted on anyone or anything (good or evil) is put back on you all at once.
Scan 2-3: Ketch uses PS to own Blaze (proving that it is effective even if you only harm the bad like a GR does)

And now its time to prove why it works on Arion

Gallery

Scan 1-2: Arion blasts Wonder Woman causing serious harm to her and making her cry out in pain and lights Etrigan on fire (scan 2 comes before scan 1)
Scan 3-4: Arion on 2 occasions blasts what looks to be a demon causing it harm
Scan 5-6: Arion again harms a being with his magic
Scan 7: He actually alliterates about a dozen demons

So what the PS would do to Arion is make him feel all the pain he caused in these scans all at once (needless to say these rant the only times he's harmed another being so yeah PS causes even more trauma)
I am through going back and fourth with this PS debate Arion has caused pain to others and that in itself means that that pain can go back onto him. That is all i have to say on this point

Summary

1. You still have yet to prove they could react to the initial attack from the GR's
2. The mental projections will be dealt with handily
3. GR's have been forced into SoV control
4. SoV's effortlessly deal with Brainwave
5. Arion has no way to beat guys who's blasts can kill hell lords above and equal to Mephisto (who was powerful enough to match Galactus in shear power)
6. Arion has no counter to the PS

@darkseid1006: Not sure why I'm not getting notifocations from this thread but.

Firstly how are the projections going to keep the GR's busy if A. You didn't have time to get them up before the GR's put them down in the first few seconds using there bike speed (you still have not countered this offence) or B. the fact that the GR bro's should easily be able to take down the projections

I didn't counter because there was nothing to counter. Before you posted that in my first strategy post I stated that Arion uses dimensional travel to transport us out of the area to a completely different place. The projections are being created from there. And seriously if you think the Riders are putting down BW's projections when Alan Scot, Spectre, Dr fate, Starman, Captain Atom, Amazingman, Maxima, and several others vastly more powerful than they are can't your deluding yourself. BW can use his projections from the far side of the country, planet or deep space. It's in the links I gave you.

Ghost Riders hellfire alone could put multiple mental projections on the floor and seeing as Brainwave is particularly evil it should actually destroy most of them.

BW isn't evil at all, his father was but he isn't he was breifly insane. None of which matters since his projections aren't anything. Their not even living. Hell fire is a heat of the soul that burns the soul not the body so much and when fighting creations that have no soul will not affect them at all. I'm not completely uninformed on this most of my favorite characters (like Hellstrom) are magic/demon related. So sorry dude but hellfire wont even singe a single projection.

And as you can see it can be used effectively as a more area based attack meaning that it could damage multiple projections per blast

Projections of BW aren't things of substance in the sense of having physical bodies that can be hurt. they they are projections of his mind that have a three dimensional image and have substance because of his TK. He can just let any blasts pass straight through them.

And if thats not good enough then Ketch can actually create avatars of himself out of hellfire allowing them to match the projections while these 2 go straight for Brainwave and Arion (admittedly this was Danny Ketch when amped after absorbing other GR's power but at this time he no longer had Noble Kale controlling and i chose composite Ketch so this feat still applies) These avatars where as powerful as the standard Ghost Riders as that is where he got the power to make them from.

So BW's mental projections will not be keeping the GR bro's busy in fact Ketch will just create his avatars and leave them to their own devices and let them destroy BW's mental projections.

Just not happening. Your hellfire wont do anywhere near enough damage to the projections and my team are attacking from afar while Arion gathers intel with his magic. You wont's even know where we're attacking from. Even if they could make this happen here is Arion protecting thousands of Atlanteans whilst also attacking and destroying the form of Chaon ( who BTW is Zarathos level)

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/3/30145/2177760-arion_01_39.jpg

Now that feat is the ABSOLUTE peak of his own personal power. To do any more than that (or any feats he has of doing more) require amps or outside power or tapping the power of others.

Here he is vs other hell Lords

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/3/30145/2177783-untitled_14.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/3/30145/2177784-untitled_15.jpg

The best power you can hope for is that of a hell (Zarathos) lord and Arion has already matched them even when depowered.

Hell Arion could just use his magic to enchant weapons and fight the riders with his martial skill

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/3/30145/2177780-arion_warrior_2.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/3/30145/2191520-dodges_and_blocks_with_his_eyes_closed.jpg

he was as skilled with a sword as an accomplished warrior after one lesson

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/3/30145/2191536-2191535-arion_becomes_almost_master_of_the_sword_in_one_lesson.jpg

@darkseid1006: WTF over half my last post just isn't there

here goes again

Secondly there is the brain blasts that your claiming can damage the GR's and i completely agree. I mean if they shatter Alan Scotts constructs (defiantly the most powerful GL) then what will they do to a GR??? Shatter the head? Shatter the body? Is that really a good idea as iv already shown that this type of damage is the least effective strategy to deploy on a GR you already know why right? Well whenever a GR sustains damage on this level the SoV takes over and they heal. So by using powerful attacks you have just unleashed Kale and Zarathos even quicker than what time it would usually have taken for the SoV to take control

See here's the thing, I want you as powerful as possible because the more powerful you are the more power Arion can use against you. Arion has fought beings of emmense power when he himself had none by drawing on theirs. he's fought dimensional entities in their own places of power who are vastly higher in power then him (also using their own power). Beings who are hell lords like Zarathos himself in Chaon

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/3/30145/2177759-arion_01_34.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/3/30145/2177757-arion_01_21.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/3/30145/2177758-arion_01_22.jpg

Dimensional entities in their own place of power.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/3/30145/2177770-arion_32_22.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/3/30145/2177771-arion_32_23.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/3/30145/2177767-arion_32_12.jpg

However no shield can protect Arion from the PS

And once again NO...

The penance stare will work on Arion and here is why.

Gallery

Scan 1: Blaze explains the PS and says any pain and suffering you have ever inflicted on anyone or anything (good or evil) is put back on you all at once.

Scan 2-3: Ketch uses PS to own Blaze (proving that it is effective even if you only harm the bad like a GR does)

And now its time to prove why it works on Arion

Gallery

Scan 1-2: Arion blasts Wonder Woman causing serious harm to her and making her cry out in pain and lights Etrigan on fire (scan 2 comes before scan 1)

Scan 3-4: Arion on 2 occasions blasts what looks to be a demon causing it harm

Scan 5-6: Arion again harms a being with his magic

Scan 7: He actually alliterates about a dozen demons

So what the PS would do to Arion is make him feel all the pain he caused in these scans all at once (needless to say these rant the only times he's harmed another being so yeah PS causes even more trauma)

I am through going back and fourth with this PS debate Arion has caused pain to others and that in itself means that that pain can go back onto him. That is all i have to say on this point

Arion wont need a shield to protect him. Your analysis is failed because you missed a point I made several posts ago.

For the record anyone reading through the link to the other thread where I used Arion the scans of him taking on phantom stranger wonder woman and Etrigan and are invalid. At the time I got them off a respect thread and have since read the issue it wasn't with his own power but he was powered by Morgan Le fey

Arion has NEVER harmed anyone. Those scans weerent Arion but Morgane le fey possessing his body. Simlarly there are scans of Mordru in his body all over his respect threads (again not him). He didn't even do any harm to the brother he hates that killed the father he loves most dear. The attacks he has done against anyone who isn't evil or dark in nature would have no affect what so ever because he shines his "light" of "love and goodness" on them.so if he were to feel his own attacks returned at him it would be like experiencing his final reward. his main enemy Chaon can master all darkness even that within a soul but could never do so to Arion because he had none to wield. If it wouldn't work for Chaon one of the oldest hell Lords in DCU it's not working for the riders. the fact is the only harm any of Arion's enemies have ever succumbed to has been what they themselves summoned and Arion removed their control or protection. there is one instance where the touch of his magic destroyed beings bit even Arion was surprised because that spell shouldn't destroy a mortal.

So if Arion experienced every single attack he has ever mounted against anyone back at him not a single one would do him any harm. not that that is pertinent at all. The penance stare actually only makes you feel pain if you know you have caused pain. It doesn't work on the insane for this reason and wouldn't work on Arion because he knows that he hasn't. Plus lets say for the sake of argument that Arion did feel he was guilty of inflicting pain. The Eye of Ra spell in my opener would have made him aware of this attack from the riders and how it works, It would also have made him aware of what prevents it. KNowing that he just magically alters himself to have more than two eyes and does the same to BW and both are immune. So no need to go back and forward any longer.

Here is how selfless Arion was even as a child.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/3/30145/2177773-arion__history_and_power_1.jpg

1. You still have yet to prove they could react to the initial attack from the GR's

2. The mental projections present will be dealt with handily

3. GR's have been forced into SoV control

4. SoV's effortlessly deal with Brainwave

5. Arion has no way to beat guys who's blasts can kill hell lords above and equal to Mephisto (who was powerful enough to match Galactus in shear power)

6. Arion has no counter to the PS

1. when your initial attacks occur my team aren't even on the battlefield as per the start of my strategy

2. no they wont because the attacks you mentioned wont even affect them unless BW allows it

3. FANTASTIC that means Arion is now wielding the power of two SoV on top of his own. Hell Bring on Zarathos uleashed. 2x SoV + Arion + BW >>>> 2 x SoV. Auto win for me.

4. Yeah right BW snr (who isn't as powerful as his son who has his power PLUS his sons original power level) soloed Dr Fate, Spectre, Johnny thunder, Hawkman, Alan Scot, Wonder Woman, Jay Garrick in All Star Comics. In All Star Squadron he soloed ,Dr Fate, Starman, Hawkman, Atom, Johnny Thunder, Sandman, Dr Midnight, Firebrand, Johnny Thunder, Liberty Belle, and others untill Alan Scot came to their rescue and went all out (and the son can shatter his constructs). Not to mention that Jnr soloed cap Atom, Maxima, Plastique, Booster Gold, the Wonder Twins and AMZING MAN (the same one who single hadedly took down overmaster a Galactus knock off who soloed the JLA). Plus in the Green Lantern and Sentinel Heart of darkness mini he had teh combined power of Alan Scot and Kyle Raynor on the ropes for a while with his projections. Sorry man but there is no way the riders are taking him down easily. I doubt very much that the riders deal with hank at all certainly not effortlessly

5. this one made me laugh. Arion has matched hell lords when depowered when he has his power he can certainly beat them so this is a non event.

6. he can easily counter but doesnt have to because one of his main villains has a similar ability that has never been able to affect him.

I'd summarize but I dont see a viable attack for your team to use. My team can fight your from quite a distance never really even being in the range of your team to even attack us.

@cosmicallyaware1:

@beatboks1 said:

Again that is no counter. If you haven't proven that they could react to the speed that the GR's would arrive to you at then you wouldn't be able to leave in time to actually enter the Darkrealm (Darkworld i don't know) before the brothers where onto you and put brainwave down and wrap Arion in the unbreakable chains of a Ghost Rider where they can then PS him.

Gallery

ghost riders chains hold a powerful fallen angel

Gallery

Chains incapacitate SS Doctor Strange

Gallery

Also all the powerful hero's that he fought where actually significantly weaker than you try to pull off. Dr Fate was half helmet version to which he had barley and magic and was a lot weaker than his later incarnations. This Spectre was very powerful but he was not written as the insanely powerful as he was after this (although he was Jim Corrigan he had his greater feats from Silver Age onward). Alan Scott was his classic version and was not as powerful as he has later shown either so the feat is immersive but not as great as it sounds.


Uses his chains to incapacitate 2 avatars of Lucifer both with 1/3 of his power. So Lucifer is a hell lord on par with Mephisto (i think it was official handbook to the marvel universe that showed this) meaning that not even 2/3rds of Mephisto's power is enough to break the chains of a GR.
His mental projections never overpowered the Spectre in fact the closest i know to that happening was making a projection of the Spectre to take out hawkman (can you please show me a time when they actually fought Spectre head on and not just Spectre being TP'ed)

Brainwave Jr has attacked the JSA multiple times and has solo'ed them quiet a few times so yeah that counts as evil deeds.
And thats wrong Hellfire can be as much physically harmful as it is metaly.

Gallery

Hellfire destroys a Crane and causes a large explosion destroying a body

Gallery

Using a hellfire nova to level a theme park (good look projections)
So yeah hellfire can be just as effective physically.

Your not actually going to claim that are you? we both know that thats not true in fact i have a quote from you yourself where you have stated the complete opposite.

"HIs "images" perform crimes for him because they have substance and can be touched and felt. They are not just a projection but a physical being created by his mind. In All Star Comics 15 WW Hawkgirl and other females take on BW and are taken down by the JSA themselves. It wasn't the actual JSA but projections that were physically existing that defeated WW and Hawkgirl et all. GA WW could toe planets with her lasso, that is far and away beyond anything MM can do.

With Brainwave you could be fighting dozens of powerful heroes who are simply conjured from his thoughts."
Beatkos1 himself wrote this comment in good vs evil tourney round 4 against mr ingenuity

So yup you have already stated that his mental projections are physical and not just that but here are other occasions in comics where its been shown as well.

Gallery

Here it is shown that his mental projections are 3 dimensional and have been sent to break into places to get money proving that yes they are physical

Gallery

Here Brainwave uses his mental projections to not just create a image but to actually physically attack and harm the JSA so yup again there physical.

So yes Hellfire will be doing just as much damage as i said it would and the best thing the actual GR's don't even have too fight Danny just uses his hellfire avatars (which have all the power of a standard GR) and they can take the projections handily i mean look how many there are...

So now that we have gone back over that and i have proved that the GR's could take the projections we can move on.

Hell lords huh? You got any proof to back up that accusation?? because until you show some feats that put them on that level they are not hell lord level.
But lets say you are right even though you have no proof in all of these instances the "Hell Lords" have been outside of there own realms to which as everyone knows they are a lot lot less powerful.
Yeah your right it is the best i can hope for because that is all that is needed to easily take out your team and your forgetting that it is not just one hell lord level being (actually their above) it is 2 Noble Kale and Zarathos.

So as iv already shown Zarathos was so powerful Mephisto had to de-power him to defeat him and Mephisto broke even with Galactus when they fought and posses power enough to shatter a Galaxy. Now Kale actually stomped Blackheart who was equal/above Mephisto.

And you know that hell lord Lucifer? the one i was talking about before? well this is what he does to him when he is at half power.

Gallery

So bottom line is Arion is outmatched with but 1 SoV never mind 2

HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHHA
he....he.......h... Are you serious you want to try and go close quarters combat to 2 hell lords who have penance stares and nova blasts that can kill hell lords? That has got to be the worst idea you could think of...

Summary

1. You still have yet to give a effective counter to my speed at the beginning
2. Your mental projections fail against the GR's either because Ketch's avatars take them or you p!iss the GR's off enough to turn SoV and get stomped horribly
3. Arion is completely outmatched against guys who beat beings that have broke even with Galactus
4. You still have no way of beating a SoV all you can do is hope to survive as long as you can before they burn you up.

@cosmicallyaware1

Firstly you have still yet to provide proof of your claims of these being hell lords/dimensional entity power levels.
Secondly you can try using there own power against them but unless you completely drain them of everything they have (Arion has nowhere near this power) there is no way you can beat 2 beings above hell lord level that could own you with either a single blast or the penance stare also show me scans of Arion being able to drain the power of beings on this kind of magnitude because so far you have claimed that all theses beings are hell lords and not once have you proved it with feats.






So i said that i was through with the PS debate but you don't seem to be getting this so i'll continue.

No all these so called "Hell Lords" and demons that Arion has harmed and killed funny enough actually count asharming someone ;)
Now WHY CANT YOU UNDERSTAND THIS?????? You are getting all the pain you have ever caused not the actual attack itself so yeah if the attack hit Arion it may do nothing but if the pain he inflicted with it hit Arion it would do something add every singe attack Arion has ever used on any living thing and thats what he will experience so I'm sorry but Arion is KO'ed or killed or just crippled either way you would lose.

WRONG!!! Having more than 2 eyes has never effected the PS all that ever happened was made it more difficult to use because its harder to concentrate never ever did it say it couldn't happen.

1. My initial attack is so fast that you would be caught before even managing to open the portal (my riders are going near light speed on these things and you have yet too show any reaction feats)
2. Yes they will i already cleared that in the above post
3. No what that means is Arion gets stomped because he has never shown to absorb power on this magnitude and has no way of avoiding getting stomped by beings on this scale. Also the only person/being who has ever drained power from this kind of being is Galactus himself and that was against Mephisto these 2 are even more powerful than that so no Arion has no way of absorbing power from these 2.
4. Two beings who have power above Mephisto and are immune to any TP attacks beside physically based ones can easily beat BW yes. Also you have yet to prove that they actually beat Spectre all you've shown is him making a projection look like Spectre and him just TP'ing him.
5. This one made me face palm ;) as you keep making claims about hell lords and ave not backed any one off them with any feats. for all we know they could be superman level.
6. Oh yeah one off his enemies can inflict all the pain he has ever caused to anything (good or bad) back on him all at once by looking at him? Anyway i have already proved that the PS can work on Arion so sorry but that s irrelevant unless his enemy has the actual PS.

That was my last post i feel this is starting to go in circles now.

@darkseid1006:

Again that is no counter. If you haven't proven that they could react to the speed that the GR's would arrive to you at then you wouldn't be able to leave in time to actually enter the Darkrealm (Darkworld i don't know) before the brothers where onto you and put brainwave down and wrap Arion in the unbreakable chains of a Ghost Rider where they can then PS him

This is a joke right?? The OP set up has us starting ten miles apart. Arion only has to think to INSTANTLY travel though dimensions. Unless the riders have become faster than any member of the Flash Family then there is no way in hell they can attack before Arion and BW are gone. Not to mention BW himself can move them to the Astral Plane or Limbo (it's how he wasn't destroyed by a warhead of Ultra's that was point blank to exploding).

Here is arion returning from a BFR seconds after having left with the very beast he was sent to to be destroyed by in tow, The beast never even got a chance to attack him

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/3/30145/2177754-18.jpg

Arion had only been BFR's three sentences before.

even if there was a chance riders are that fast (which they aren't no way is a rider covering 10 miles in less than a fraction of a second) Arion as reacted to and caught an arrow in flight with just his normal human stats and his danger sense.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/3/30145/2182009-arion_lsenses_and_reacts_to_danger.jpg

He's dodged projectiles and weapons while blinded or blind folded also while depowered due to his natural danger sense

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/3/30145/2191520-dodges_and_blocks_with_his_eyes_closed.jpg

Here he is in his second sword lesson (after the other one I showed you) during depowered era.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/3/30145/2191517-arion_s_second_sword_lesson.jpg

reactions aren't something I have to worry about. I will always know of danger before it's in any range to strike and instant travel is instant.

Also all the powerful hero's that he fought where actually significantly weaker than you try to pull off. Dr Fate was half helmet version to which he had barley and magic and was a lot weaker than his later incarnations. This Spectre was very powerful but he was not written as the insanely powerful as he was after this (although he was Jim Corrigan he had his greater feats from Silver Age onward). Alan Scott was his classic version and was not as powerful as he has later shown either so the feat is immersive but not as great as it sounds

First while Spectre was lower powered levels in the GA it wasn't below current only below SA and not by much. It was the Golden age that he faced the like of OOMM, Zor and Kulak who were his most powerful opponents. It was during all star Squadron that he fought and defeated Classic Dr fate, it was also during this era ( and a few issues after BW taking on Spec) that Spectre held apart two worlds seeking to occupy the same point in time and space during the start of COIE. (that;s right my friend it was the 1940's spec who did that feat)

and yet here we have BW's projections fighting one of the beings (the other being GA Fate) who went to the underworld and dictated terms to a hell lord in his own place of power.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/3/30145/2618720-images_3.jpg

Dr Fate was half helmet version to which he had barley and magic and was a lot weaker than his later incarnations.

that is only the case for All Star Squadron not for All Star Comics mate.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/3/30145/3608963-111+1+a+all-star+comics+%2358+-+page+13.jpg

That my fro\iend is Classic SA Dr Fate and Alan Scot succumbing to BW Snr's mental projections.

Alan Scott was his classic version and was not as powerful as he has later shown either so the feat is immersive but not as great as it sounds

He bested Alan Scot as Sentinel very much his on the mini Green Lantern and Sentinel heart of Darkness. his projections had them on the ropes and Alan had to go all out just to survive. trying to no sell or underrate feats isn't going to get you far.

Here Brainwave uses his mental projections to not just create a image but to actually physically attack and harm the JSA so yup again there physical.

Yes as I showed there they are physical (a fact I also stated here) but as also shown in the scan linked of them fighting Spectre they can disappear in an instant (or reappear) just like here vs Hawkman,

http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/beatboks01/media/Brainwave/BWdebut.jpg.html?sort=3&o=46

the fact still remains that while physical they aren't affected by physical damage. They dont have feelings or vital organs or souls to damage.

So yes Hellfire will be doing just as much damage as i said it would and the best thing the actual GR's don't even have too fight Danny just uses his hellfire avatars (which have all the power of a standard GR) and they can take the projections handily i mean look how many there are...

Hell fire is a metaphysical fire that burns the soul not the body. the projections don't have one so how exactly is it going to harm them??? As for Numbers in All Star Squadron 20 BW sent the entire Japanese imperial army navy and air force against the JSA and All Stars. As fast as they destroyed some he came up with more. When Alan Scot joined the fray and in seconds destroyed them all and then countless more projections BW sent a tornado against him. In All Star 55 he created projections of world wide disasters.

yeah you keep believing that two riders are taking down his projections quickly if you want but that's a very flawed argument.

Hell lords huh? You got any proof to back up that accusation?? because until you show some feats that put them on that level they are not hell lord level.

But lets say you are right even though you have no proof in all of these instances the "Hell Lords" have been outside of there own realms to which as everyone knows they are a lot lot less powerful.

Yeah your right it is the best i can hope for because that is all that is needed to easily take out your team and your forgetting that it is not just one hell lord level being (actually their above) it is 2 Noble Kale and Zarathos.

So as iv already shown Zarathos was so powerful Mephisto had to de-power him to defeat him and Mephisto broke even with Galactus when they fought and posses power enough to shatter a Galaxy. Now Kale actually stomped Blackheart who was equal/above Mephisto.

Ha ha. I've already supplied the scans of him fighting hell Lords. In fact Chaon is above a hell lord being basically DCU's equivilent to Chthon (the oldest evil that created all others) and he's one of Arion's regular enemies.as for in their own realm most of those feats WERE in their realms (not that it even works that way in DCU)

As for taking it to Galactus well G devours worlds one at a time. The Ice age was caused by a being doing just that to Earths sun and Arion overpowered him by giving him all of his energy and over loading him. then there is this

http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/beatboks01/media/Arion%20lord%20high%20mage/arionlordofatlantispoweredbylight2.jpg.html?sort=3&o=28

http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/beatboks01/media/Arion%20lord%20high%20mage/arionlordofatlantispoweredbylight1.jpg.html?sort=3&o=29\\

Arion once called upon the light and power of every star in the heavens. This feat was while amped because his father (a skyfather) moved a star closer to him so as to repower and amp him and then he could wield more. I'll take the power of every star in the heavens over that of a single galaxy any day.

1. You still have yet to give a effective counter to my speed at the beginning

2. Your mental projections fail against the GR's either because Ketch's avatars take them or you p!iss the GR's off enough to turn SoV and get stomped horribly

3. Arion is completely outmatched against guys who beat beings that have broke even with Galactus

4. You still have no way of beating a SoV all you can do is hope to survive as long as you can before they burn you up.

1. your speed is completely irrelevant as instant travel is faster than anything but Wally West in Human race
2. yeah because more powerful being couldn't do that. Let's just remember that Alan Scot at the level he was at in that mini soloed all hell
3. Because the fact that he fights guys on that level all the time means nothing and he is after all a Lord of Order (ever heard of Nabu, Shazam, they both Fought Spectre in DOV and are Lords of Order)
4. Arion is a power leach like Mordru (it's why Mordru first possessed his body) however powerful your guy gets he can use that against him. That means he alone will be as powerful as both SoV as well as his own power. Keep ignoring that fact at your own peril. It's why he defeats the beings he does.

more than happy to go to votes if you want, but underrating your opponents isn't the best tactic in the books

@beatboks1: This is just a quick recap if me going over all my important points

1. The speed Blaze can go was sufficient enough to outrun Mjolnir which has been shown to go FTL to multiple FTL so yeah just because Arion has instantanious teleportation does not mean that he can actually apply that before my team rams into him.

2. I was not trying to no sell anything just making sure people knew that the characters where not as powerful as people may see them at this point in time.

3. Through that whole battle you made reference and showed scans of Arion beating hell lord power enemies when actually you never once showed anything to suggest such accusations in fact the closest you got was saying that he was the counterpart of a powerful Marvel character which still doesn't mean squat as they are not the same being and you never showed any feats for proof of their power.

4. It does not matter if he has leached power before he has never leached power from beings on par/above the likes of Mephisto, Galactus, and Blackheart so you can't just say because he has leached of weaker beings that he can suddenly do it to these 2. It's like saying a guy can TP people with no or little resistance therefore, even though he has never done it to people above that, he should be able to do it too people with high TP resistance. It makes no sense and does not work.

5. Bottom line you can only seek to annoy my guys until the true power is unleashed to which the only one who you belive could do anything from this situtuation actaually has nothing to back up that he could do anything to beings of this power as he never has.

6. You can't say that he has better absorbtion than Galactus because off a statement he himself made when he was amped.

Ill tag some people for votes below.

@iragexcudder@allstarsuperman@veshark@wyldsong@comicstooge@heraldofganthet@tomlikesfries@rikr2@sovereign91001

@boschepg@i_like_swords@New_World_Order@tparks@frozen@pierpat@cdiddyman911@cjdavis103

@thetruebarryallen@dondave@lvenger@joygirl@wolverine08@jashro44@cosmicallyaware1

Remember to read the rest if this post as it is a very important recap of what I mentioned throughout.

Good luck beatboks1 it was a fun debate.

@darkseid1006:

Firstly you have still yet to provide proof of your claims of these being hell lords/dimensional entity power levels.

Forget the hell Lords I'm just going to go straight to the top. the Grand Daddy of them all, the one from whom all other dark lords hell lords etc within the DCU come from - Chaon

http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/beatboks01/media/Chaon/ArionLordofAtlantis1-Page11.jpg.html?sort=3&o=2

http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/beatboks01/media/Chaon/ArionLordofAtlantis1-Page12.jpg.html?sort=3&o=4

http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/beatboks01/media/Chaon/ArionTheImmortal2-Page9.jpg.html?sort=3&o=0

http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/beatboks01/media/Chaon/ArionLordofAtlantis15-Page5.jpg.html?sort=3&o=1

http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/beatboks01/media/Chaon/ArionLordofAtlantis15-Page6.jpg.html?sort=3&o=3

he was the first and originally ALL Chaos. All darkness within the DCU all evil stems from him. He and his sister along with the Balance Tynan are the very source of creation. If his sister and he fight it would destroy creation (which is in fact one of Chaon's aims).

As i said DCU's equal to ChThon, and well above any Hell lords as well as one of Arion's regular foes. ( issues 1, 15, plus the Special that was the series finale ( I think there were two more), twice in Immortal Arion, again in Action comics

He also fights the Hell Lord Thalis in issue 11, Kr"th in issue 26 ( both summoned from ehll in ritual neither of thoise in their own dimension)

He fought mother who was mistress of Darkworld in issue 33 and won in her dimension, even fought her after she had taken his star gem ( source of his power)

No all these so called "Hell Lords" and demons that Arion has harmed and killed funny enough actually count asharming someone ;)

Who has he "killed" and harmed?? he has stopped them yes but all of them are beyond "harm. he knew that when he fought them. He states in several of the links I've given you that he "can't" harm them. The PS doesn't work on anyone who doesn't know their deeds to be dark (reason it wont work on the insane). Arion knows that his deeds aren't because he knows that he has never caused any harm to the entities he's fought. He actually knows that he hasn't harmed anyone. All he can do is bind them or stop them from accomplishing what they wanted to do. He's been good enough to fight great entities win and Not do them harm> If someone punched superman but had no strength to do any damage to him and that was the ONLY physical act of violence they'd done what would they feel ( because Superman wouldn't have felt anything and the way you say it you feel the pain you've inflicted). That would mean all Arion would feel is the pain of being trapped or incarcerated. Like when he trapped his mother in a portion of Darkworld. Trapped his brother within himself, Cast Kr'rth out of our dimension and closed the gate. If he felt his own energy being given to himself he would feel greatly empowered which is how he defeated the sun eater and the star entity. None of these being felt any pain as they are incapable of it,

You can't say a penance stare will affect someone by making them feel all the pain they have inflicted when they know they never have. That's why it doesn't work on the insane (because they don't understand the things they've done to be evil) or Symbiotes. These are canon facts of the PS.

Any doubts explain this

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11113/111137506/3476403-1963642-dp26_012.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11113/111137506/3476413-1963643-dp26_013.jpg

Deadpool could tank it and recover quickly and he did know he had wronged to a degree. Arion actually knows or believes he has not. His body has been used by other mystics to harm ( he has been possessed and controlled by as I said Morgane Le Fey, Mordru and his Brother Garn ( who almost killed his best friend and DID kill that friends village and family and even then Arion wouldn't harm him only trap his essence within himself)

Now WHY CANT YOU UNDERSTAND THIS??????

I understood perfectly, your missing the fact that he has not harmed them. he has only once caused any opponent anything remotely resembling pain and he knows that, and he knows that the once shouldn't have caused any harm. Hense a stare that makes him feel the pain he has inflicted isn't going to do much to him at all.

You are getting all the pain you have ever caused not the actual attack itself so yeah if the attack hit Arion it may do nothing but if the pain he inflicted with it hit Arion it would do something add every singe attack Arion has ever used on any living thing and thats what he will experience so I'm sorry but Arion is KO'ed or killed or just crippled either way you would lose.

I'll simplify it for you, he fights beings who do not feel pain and cannot be killed and as such hasn't done either. He can't feel pain he has dished out if he hasn't dished it out. Even if he could he can simply change his make up to have three eyes and be immune.

1. The speed Blaze can go was sufficient enough to outrun Mjolnir which has been shown to go FTL to multiple FTL so yeah just because Arion has instantanious teleportation does not mean that he can actually apply that before my team rams into him.

No but his danger sense that has always allowed him to react to things before they are near him does. In one of the links I've loaded (the one where he controls the winds to blow away his adversaries) he senses a coming danger. that danger doesn't arrive for another 5 pages and several of him battling. he will know of the danger before your team enact it and have moved before you start.

Also unless you can show Mjilnor was going FTL at the time that means nothing. The riders ahve no FTL feats.

2. I was not trying to no sell anything just making sure people knew that the characters where not as powerful as people may see them at this point in time.

Brainwave has faced every single character i mentioned at the peak of their power as the links I loaded in the last one show. All of whom are above your team.

3. Through that whole battle you made reference and showed scans of Arion beating hell lord power enemies when actually you never once showed anything to suggest such accusations in fact the closest you got was saying that he was the counterpart of a powerful Marvel character which still doesn't mean squat as they are not the same being and you never showed any feats for proof of their power.

Well now I have shown the scans that clearly states he was the first original and ALL chaos and part of Creation. Hence why I said he was the equal of the marvel counterpart he is. Unless your stating anyone the riders have faced has teh power to destroy everything and was a part of the creation of everything???

4. It does not matter if he has leached power before he has never leached power from beings on par/above the likes of Mephisto, Galactus, and Blackheart so you can't just say because he has leached of weaker beings that he can suddenly do it to these 2. It's like saying a guy can TP people with no or little resistance therefore, even though he has never done it to people above that, he should be able to do it too people with high TP resistance. It makes no sense and does not work

Yeah he ahs - how the hell else do you think he can fight the likes of Chaon and match him ???

5. Bottom line you can only seek to annoy my guys until the true power is unleashed to which the only one who you belive could do anything from this situtuation actaually has nothing to back up that he could do anything to beings of this power as he never has.

Until you can show your guy's coming up against the type of power capable of destroying the world at ease and the multiverse with effort clearly not

6. You can't say that he has better absorbtion than Galactus because off a statement he himself made when he was amped.

I never said he did, I said and correctly so that he could wield all the light in the universe. What I said was he has controlled the level of energy that Galactus hasn't sought to. I know if Galactus wanted to he could and since any battle with G hasn't been a fully fed one it's not a feat to put on any note in this thread.

votes away

@beatboks1: nope the PS has worked on madcap who is a pure psychopath so yeas it does work on mad people.

@beatboks1: Also that is really confusing as I was under the impression that the Presence was the beginning of creation and darkness was GEB?

But if what you say is true and he does have power to destroy everything I will completely except defeat now because if Arion has beat multiversal beings then there is no way in hell anyone is going to choose my argument over that and I would also like to take up with CA1 why a guy who can beat people like that was ever allowed in this tourney as he could easily solo every single character in all teams???

Also one more question I have to ask... If Arion had this feat why not just use it at the beginning to result as a pretty much instant win? Why leave it till now?

Alright gang, I will be back to read and vote in a bit=)

@beatboks1: @darkseid1006: alrighty guys. threads weren't scheduled to close until 9PM EST, but if you're ready to go to voting now, then that's fine. I'm going to edit the voting tag into thread title. Feel free to tag whomever (which has been done). Voting closes tomorrow evening.

and also in response to you @darkseid1006:

But if what you say is true and he does have power to destroy everything I will completely except defeat now because if Arion has beat multiversal beings then there is no way in hell anyone is going to choose my argument over that and I would also like to take up with CA1 why a guy who can beat people like that was ever allowed in this tourney as he could easily solo every single character in all teams???

Also one more question I have to ask... If Arion had this feat why not just use it at the beginning to result as a pretty much instant win? Why leave it till now?

Just think of this man. Properly debated, ANY character sounds like they can take on anybody...that's what we do here, that's the true test of a badass viner. However, any character can be defeated....there's always a way and a counter out there for anything. You just have to find it and present it correctly.

Arion is well within the limits here as everybody else my man, I am familiar with the character.

And..........no insta kill wins remember? If needed, I would always step in and make an adjudication (and beatboks know this, he's been around.....) and your opponent is a very educated pro here on the vine, and ontop of that....he's a stand up dude. He wouldn't debate anything incorrectly....

good luck in voting gentlemen, I will say that this was a fantastic match. Beatboks as usual did a spot on job......and darkseid, you really have improved and stepped you game up (especially in regards to presentation layout and knowledge on characters). Bravo, can't wait until my CaV matches planned with both of you.

Oh, @beatboks1......get ahold of me (PM) on our CaV (MLJ vs....) I have a bucha stuff to run by you / questions.....