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#101 Posted by G1d3on (96 posts) - - Show Bio

@Picard said:

@G1d3on said:

@Picard said:

@G1d3on said:

I didn’t say Buffy would lose, I said she wouldn’t stomp—there’s a clear difference. Address my argument, not a caricature of it.

Your summation of their combat history is interesting, but the point I’m trying to make that you have failed or refused to grasp is that Angelus’s defeats owe as much to him running his mouth as they do to Buffy’s own skills. Unless I’ve mistaken the rules here, these scenarios don’t assume characters will stop to gloat (otherwise every villain here would lose). “Passion” is the only definitive example of this not being the case, but then he came into the fight wounded already courtesy of the righteous fury of Rupert Giles and his Louisville Slugger.

I agree that Buffy will win, but to characterize it as a stomp is simply disingenuous. Fighting an Angel who’s less interested in taunts and more interested in tearing her head off will be quite a challenge for her.

Tell me, when I said that this fight is a stomp in Buffy favour? All I said is that Summers would probably win, considering that she done that few times before. On the other hand you completely ignored my arguments, and you are constantly repeating yourself. My point was that Angelus running his mouth was not the reason he lost, quite the contrary every time he did this he gain the upper hand. Just like David Cain when he fought his daughter Cassandra, he know how to hurt her psychologically and how to deconcentrate her, thats why he was doing it. Same situation took place in fights between Buffy and Angelus, but you never addressed this, instead you are repeating your theory that Angel lost becouse he was too busy talking to fight properly. Of course its not true. A lot of people in both Buffy and Angel series were talking during a fight, a lot of people are talking during fights in comics, yet I don't see you or anyone else claiming that someone lost a fight becouse he was too talkative. Some characters like Spider-man or Buffy herself are running their mouths almost constantly when they fight, they even use jokes to provoke and to deconcentrate their enemies. So I don't know what made you think that Angel lost because he talk too much? Arguing during a fight is often just part of narative. So again what made you think that Angel lost because he was too talkative? Also fight in Becoming, he stopped talking and he tried to stab her in the face, yet he didn't succeed, after he tried to stab her it was just fight not talking yet he lost. I wonder how you will explain that?

If all you’re saying is that Buffy wins, we’re in agreement. As for the rest, I haven’t ignored anything: your argument is that Buffy won those fights, so she’d win this one.

My argument is that an examination of those fights reveals there were plenty of moments in which Angel clearly had the upper hand and lost it ONLY (with the exception of “Passion”) when he stopped to taunt Buffy into further rage or when Buffy utilized a sneak attack. (By the way, Angelus entered the fight in “Passion” already at a disadvantage, having been thoroughly accosted by Giles.) Someone going for the kill won’t stop to taunt their prey or cede a moment of advantage; you want someone pissed off and going for the kill, look no further than Giles’ brutal pummeling of Angelus. No talking, no taunting, just one relentless attack after another. Angelus’s M.O. was, from day one, all about tormenting Buffy rather than killing her outright. Clearly during their last fight in “Becoming, pt 2” he intended to kill her, but not without taunting her one last time. Without those remarks to incite her rage, that sword may very well have cut through her like butter. Contrast her behavior: when Buffy’s pissed, there’s no talking, no banter, just constant attack (cf. the end of her fights with Angel in “Innocence” and “Becoming, pt. 2”). Gloating as an impediment to a quick victory is self-evident and I hope you’re reasonable enough to not ask me to explain to you why, when beating the hell out of a person, stopping to gloat and goad them into rage might be detrimental to the overall effort.

In summation, Angel concedes that Buffy has a slight strength advantage over him and he’s never shown superior combat technique, so I think he loses. But it’s close.

#102 Posted by potter1000 (44 posts) - - Show Bio

I think Buffy would stake Angel if both are going all out. My only problem is, we never saw Angel actually seriously fight a slayer. We've seen Angelus take on Buffy, and for the most part either broke even with her or was on the losing end, and we saw Angelus fight Faith, again, breaking even, he bit her, but she wanted him to so she could poison him. In most of his fights with Buffy, Angelus was taunting and arguably holding back, with Faith, he was a bit more serious. However, Angel doesn't taunt nearly as much as Angelus, meaning he might just go for a kill, however, Buffy not holding back will stake him before he gets to her.

HOWEVER, With no weapons, hand to hand, I'd give it to Angel, Buffy would have no way to put him down, even knocking him out would be tough as the guy tanked falling from a building and got up in seconds, as well as taking multiple machine gun shots to the chest.

#103 Posted by SSJLozza (1528 posts) - - Show Bio

The Slayer takes both rounds. Round 2 is a stomp.