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#51 Posted by Wolverine08 (39006 posts) - - Show Bio

@omnicrono:

Ah, you Bat fanboys and your unwillingness to accept anyone as Batman's equal :)

#52 Edited by Omnicrono (1627 posts) - - Show Bio

@wolverine08: Heh, well that's a bit unfair. There are plenty of heroes/villains I would consider Batman's "equal" or even superior in many respects.

Black Panther (without herb) just isn't one of them.

#53 Edited by Wolverine08 (39006 posts) - - Show Bio

@omnicrono:

Eh, it's all good mate. Anyways, everybody who quoted @shawnbaby agrees that sans herb Black Panther is an equal to Batman, so I'm content :D

#54 Posted by jashro44 (19906 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44: I agree that T'Challa's enhancements would give him an edge over Batman in a fight, but he'll still have his vast skill even without the enhancements would make an unenhanced fight between him and Batman a 50-50 split in my opinion. I disagree with Batman having better raw skill feats, but I do overall understand where you are coming from with the enhancements edge being gone.

Thing is his skill feats aren't as good as batmans. T'challa has been stated to be taught every martial arts on the planet, so has batman. Difference being is we have a more in depth knowledge of Bruces training. We have seen entire story arcs about his masters and what not so he have a better understanding of the quality of training he has. Not to mention Bruce has also shown a more diverse pressure point knowledge.

And my point about the enhancements is that they do play a role when Black Panther fights someone like daredevil. So we do have to take into account he does have a physical advantage with the herb that he doesn't have without the herb.

I would love to say Black Panther is Bruces equal but he doesn't have the feats to back it up. They are not far apart skill wise but there is a noticeable gap between the two just as there is a noticeable gap between there physicals. Its not a big one but its an existent one.

#55 Edited by Wolverine08 (39006 posts) - - Show Bio
#56 Edited by Omnicrono (1627 posts) - - Show Bio

@omnicrono:

Eh, it's all good mate. Anyways, everybody who quoted @shawnbaby agrees that sans herb Black Panther is an equal to Batman, so I'm content :D

Sure thing. I definitely noticed that too. No worries.

Some characters I consider Batman's equal or better in h2h (which is what we are debating here):

Lady Shiva

Karate Kid

O Sensei

Captain America (equal)

#57 Posted by Wolverine08 (39006 posts) - - Show Bio

@wolverine08 said:

@omnicrono:

Eh, it's all good mate. Anyways, everybody who quoted @shawnbaby agrees that sans herb Black Panther is an equal to Batman, so I'm content :D

Sure thing. I definitely noticed that too. No worries.

Some characters I consider Batman's equal or better in h2h (which is what we are debating here):

Lady Shiva

Karate Kid

O Sensei

Captain America (equal)

Really? I notice most Bat fans always say Batman has a skill advantage over Cap in Batman vs Captain America debates.

In my opinion, the only three Marvel heroes (Not including villains or anything) that are equal to Batman in hand to hand skill are Iron Fist, Wolverine, and Black Panther.

#58 Edited by jashro44 (19906 posts) - - Show Bio

@wolverine08 said:

@omnicrono:

Eh, it's all good mate. Anyways, everybody who quoted @shawnbaby agrees that sans herb Black Panther is an equal to Batman, so I'm content :D

Sure thing. I definitely noticed that too. No worries.

Some characters I consider Batman's equal or better in h2h (which is what we are debating here):

Lady Shiva

Karate Kid

O Sensei

Captain America (equal)

All though I agree that Black Panther isn't as good as batman in skill I don't see how you can say the same isn't true for cap....Cap has stated him and T'challa are equals....

#59 Edited by Omnicrono (1627 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:

All though I agree that Black Panther isn't as good as batman in skill I don't see how you can say the same isn't true for cap....Cap has stated him and T'challa are equals....

Sure, I understand that. However, a lot of characters say a lot of things in the comics. Happens all the time. That is pretty much a given when it comes to comic books. Doesn't make it truth.

#60 Posted by jashro44 (19906 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:

All though I agree that Black Panther isn't as good as batman in skill I don't see how you can say the same isn't true for cap....Cap has stated him and T'challa are equals....

Sure, I understand that. However, a lot of characters say a lot of things in the comics. Happens all the time. That is pretty much a given when it comes to comic books. Doesn't make it truth.

Except Black Panther has the feats to back it up....Only time Steve ever beat him, T'challa was mentally off his game. Both Steve and T'challa acknowledged and noted he wasn't at his best.

#61 Edited by Omnicrono (1627 posts) - - Show Bio

@wolverine08 said:

Really? I notice most Bat fans always say Batman has a skill advantage over Cap in Batman vs Captain America debates.

In my opinion, the only three Marvel heroes (Not including villains or anything) that are equal to Batman in hand to hand skill are Iron Fist, Wolverine, and Black Panther.

Bats and Cap both have a more extensive history than BP, Iron Fist, and Wolverine. I put the two pretty much at equal footing in terms of h2h skill.

Yes - BP, Iron Fist, and Wolverine are certainly among the best in the world. No dispute.

But...

Cap and Bats are among the best of the best.

#62 Posted by Wolverine08 (39006 posts) - - Show Bio

@wolverine08 said:

Really? I notice most Bat fans always say Batman has a skill advantage over Cap in Batman vs Captain America debates.

In my opinion, the only three Marvel heroes (Not including villains or anything) that are equal to Batman in hand to hand skill are Iron Fist, Wolverine, and Black Panther.

Bats and Cap both have a more extensive history than BP, Iron Fist, and Wolverine. I put the two pretty much at equal footing in terms of h2h skill.

Yes - BP, Iron Fist, and Wolverine are certainly among the best in the world. No dispute.

But...

Cap and Bats are among the best of the best.

Actually, if you break it down in my opinion, both Wolverine and Batman have a more extensive history with their skill than Cap. Writers have gone more in depth into Logan and Bruce's skill history, where and who trained them, and have shown better aptitude with pressure points and other forms of combat (using swords, etc.). That's why I think Wolverine and Batman are both slightly better than Cap. Plus, Cap has gotten lol stomped by a Wolverine who's healing factor has barely working due to exhaustion from fighting for days when he had the advantage of surprise. Not something to show that's he's an equal :D

#63 Posted by Omnicrono (1627 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44: Cool, cool.

Question: Was that T'Challa with the herb or without when he defeated Steve? Won't change my standpoint either way, but I am just curious.

#64 Posted by jashro44 (19906 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44: Cool, cool.

Question: Was that T'Challa with the herb or without when he defeated Steve? Won't change my standpoint either way, but I am just curious.

All of his fights with cap he has had the herb.

#65 Edited by Omnicrono (1627 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:

@omnicrono said:

@jashro44: Cool, cool.

Question: Was that T'Challa with the herb or without when he defeated Steve? Won't change my standpoint either way, but I am just curious.

All of his fights with cap he has had the herb.

Oh, okay. Yeah, just fyi, but in terms of Batman having the edge over Black Panther in a h2h battle, I was talking about BP without the herb. (having been listed in the OP as one of the scenarios)

#66 Edited by jashro44 (19906 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:

@omnicrono said:

@jashro44: Cool, cool.

Question: Was that T'Challa with the herb or without when he defeated Steve? Won't change my standpoint either way, but I am just curious.

All of his fights with cap he has had the herb.

Oh, okay. Yeah, just fyi, but in terms of Batman having the edge over Black Panther in a h2h battle, I was talking about BP without the herb. (having been listed in the OP as one of the scenarios)

I know. I agree batman would have the edge over black panther without the herb. I believe that in terms of skill batman>black panther=captain america. I was mostly just replying to you saying that Steve is equal to batman and Black Panther isn't.

Unless you were saying batman=Steve (enhanced)>Black Panther (unenhanced)? Then Yea I guess that would be true due to Steves suepioer physicals in that case.

#67 Edited by Omnicrono (1627 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:

I know. I agree batman would have the edge over black panther without the herb. I believe that in terms of skill batman>black panther=captain america. I was mostly just replying to you saying that Steve is equal to batman and Black Panther isn't.

Unless you were saying batman=Steve (enhanced)>Black Panther (unenhanced)? Then Yea I guess that would be true due to Steves suepioer physicals in that case.

Precisely. :)

I suppose I could have also worded it this way. In terms of pure skill, they are probably all pretty close to equal for the most part. But the superior physicals of Bats and Cap over a herb-less BP would give them the edge in my mind in a h2h battle.

However, I do believe that both Bats and Cap are slightly more skilled than BP as well. That's just me.

#68 Posted by Omnicrono (1627 posts) - - Show Bio

@wolverine08: I see what you are saying about Wolverine. Good point.

That can't be said of BP, however.

#69 Edited by RenaissanceMan (983 posts) - - Show Bio

He is not stomping black panther without the herb. People are so uninformed. Panther has been training longer than Batman. And Current Panther doesn't even need or use the herb.

#70 Posted by RenaissanceMan (983 posts) - - Show Bio

Loses to Extremis Tony

Stomps non extremis Tony

Loses to BP with Herb

Stalemates BP without

Stomps Luthor

I probably agree with this.

#71 Edited by Omnicrono (1627 posts) - - Show Bio

He is not stomping black panther without the herb. People are so uninformed. Panther has been training longer than Batman. And Current Panther doesn't even need or use the herb.

I don't think anybody in here said he would "stomp" an herb-less BP. Seems someone is a little uninformed when it comes to this thread and what has actually been said.

#72 Posted by Wolverine08 (39006 posts) - - Show Bio

@omnicrono:

T'Challa has been shown using pressure points and other weapons during the time he lost his enhancements, but true, his training hasn't been expounded on as thoroughly as other top tier fighters like Batman and Wolverine. It's usually just been said he was trained by Wakanda's best. Damn, writers need to get more into that with BP! *Crosses arms*

#73 Edited by Omnicrono (1627 posts) - - Show Bio

@wolverine08: Haha! Yes, those writers do need to do that, that they do. :)

It honestly is one of the main reasons I don't put BP at quite the same skill level as Bats and Cap. I know a lot has been said about the character and his training in the comics, but if writers would delve into his back story a little more and actually show us some of that training, that would be wonderful.

But it's not only that. He also just doesn't have the history that Bats and Cap have. In other words, he hasn't been around as long and therefore doesn't have as many quantifiable feats against other opponents. As unfair a consideration as that might sound, it is still a consideration for me.

#74 Posted by Wolverine08 (39006 posts) - - Show Bio

@omnicrono:

Cap hasn't had his training in martial arts as extensively looked backed as Batman's really.