Did Brandon actually do anything apart from dying? He lost a jousting match to Rhaegar at Harrenhal, but how far that translates to melee combat is unclear.
Did Brandon actually do anything apart from dying? He lost a jousting match to Rhaegar at Harrenhal, but how far that translates to melee combat is unclear.
Jaime says jousting is 3/4 horsemanship and Rhaegar was noted for being a superb rider and jouster.
The only thing we really know about Brandon is that he was better than Ned in swordplay, but he has no feats or acclaim to suggest he would beat Rhaegar.
Did Brandon actually do anything apart from dying? He lost a jousting match to Rhaegar at Harrenhal, but how far that translates to melee combat is unclear.
Jaime says jousting is 3/4 horsemanship and Rhaegar was noted for being a superb rider and jouster.
The only thing we really know about Brandon is that he was better than Ned in swordplay, but he has no feats or acclaim to suggest he would beat Rhaegar.
Well you're right the only thing we know about Brandon is the fact he was the best swordsman of the House Stark, he was also portrayed as a true warrior who loved fighting much like Robert and Jaime while Rhaegar did it by duty.
@uft: Well it's harder to be the finest swordsman in a House who include Ned Stark a decent warrior (an excellent battle commander) and Benjen Stark the first ranger of the Night's Watch than to be the finest swordsman of the targs.
Firstly Robert and Rhaegar were fighting on horse which isn't Robert's speciality compared to Rhaegar who did many great performances in jousting, and secondly Robert wasn't that wounded since he didn't feel the need to be heal immediately as he could send his maester helping Barristan instead.
@kal-l: @rogueshadow: Just tossing out the battle at the Tower of Joy, where the only survivors were Howland Reed and Ned Stark. Obviously they were the best of the 7 Northeners who went there which says something about Ned's skills. Not too much, mind you, since we never had the chance to hear the details of the fight and since Ned was the lord of the other Northeners so they would probably give their lives to protect him but it's something.
All in all I think Rhaegar wins. Brandon's only feat was smacking Littlefinger around which counts for practically nothing. Rhaegar fought Robert, which was at the time probably one of the best in Westeros.
@the_red_viper: Yeah, that's basically my argument against the TOJ, we just don't know what happened, so I don't factor it into considerations. I find it hard to imagine the Kingsguard lost straight up when Barristan Selmy fought his way out of an entire town, lesser swordsmen like Garlan Tyrell can fight 4 knights and even Goodman Willit took on 12 regular men. I know GRRM says anybody can die on any day, but that seems a stretch to me, like he'd be breaking his own rules. I'm confident there was more to it.
@the_red_viper: Yeah, that's basically my argument against the TOJ, we just don't know what happened, so I don't factor it into considerations. I find it hard to imagine the Kingsguard lost straight up when Barristan Selmy fought his way out of an entire town, lesser swordsmen like Garlan Tyrell can fight 4 knights and even Goodman Willit took on 12 regular men. I know GRRM says anybody can die on any day, but that seems a stretch to me, like he'd be breaking his own rules. I'm confident there was more to it.
Yeah but that's different. Selmy didn't exactly tear his way out of KL like you're making it sound (IIRC) and all he had to fight was Gold Cloaks. Garlan spars against 3 soldiers, not 4 knights, and frankly I don't remember who Goodman Willit even is. The TOJ was 7 Northern lords, veterans of war, experienced commanders, who were training their whole lives. Not TOO much of a stretch that they killed the Kingsguard 3 finest knights, but either way they came in 7 and ended up just 2. So if you look at it this way it kinda makes sense either way.
@the_red_viper: I wasn't talking about his escape King's Landing I was talking about the defiance of Duskendale, when he literally fought his way out of a guarded town with a skeleton crew. Yeah, I don't think it actually says knights, I think it just says men, but it's fair to say they are not stableboys, lords don't train with the commonfolk, they will be well trained in sword and lance. Willitt fought in the battle of Blackwater. It really seems to me like Dayne with Dawn would have been able to put up a fight just by himself, I mean Howland is a poor fighter we know that much, Eddard is average, and the other five we know nothing about, so are basically featless. Dayne, Hightower & Whent should have been able to beat them in my opinion, looking at the capability of other fighters in the world and noting that Dayne (with Dawn), is the best fighter in the past century.
@rogueshadow: I know we've discussed this one in the past but I'm still putting my money on Brandon. It's true that all we no about him is that he's an excellent swordsman and that he has no feats by Rheagar has no real combat feats either unless you count losing to Robert on horseback as being a feat.
@rogueshadow: I know we've discussed this one in the past but I'm still putting my money on Brandon. It's true that all we no about him is that he's an excellent swordsman and that he has no feats by Rheagar has no real combat feats either unless you count losing to Robert on horseback as being a feat.
Wounding Robert to the point he could no longer fight is no mean feat, I don't think anybody short of Barristan Selmy and Arthur Dayne stand before Robert on the Trident, wounding him is damn impressive in my eyes. Plus he has prestige from notable characters, I don't recall Brandon having a solid claim where somebody says he was a really great swordsman. Also, I'd like to say that I hate Rhaegar and think he is an absolute ass-hat.
GRRM says that Brandon was a better fighter than both Ned and Benjen. Ned is obviously a competent fighter, but Ned and Rodrik lost a 2v1 against the Bronze Yohn. Neither of them really have feats, but Rhaegar seems to have a lot more hype. Though I suppose being the Crown Prince, it's natural.
If it's on horseback, I'd say Rhaegar. On foot, I'll say Brandon just 'cause I'm biased.
EDIT: An interesting thread I saw on the ASoIaF forum is a Trial by Seven between Rhaegar and Brandon. If they had teams, could be a better debate.
@cregan_stark: Martin said he's better than Eddard and Benjen, but I don't recall him ever being referred to as anything really special though. Quotes?
Most definitely, as mentioned above, jousting is 3/4 horseriding... it doesn't negate the fact that he badly wounded the 'Demon of the Trident', even if it's just 1/4, that's impressive against one of the greatest warriors of the century, in his prime fighting for his betrothed. Brandon has zero feats (well, Littlefinger, lol).
About Rhaegar's fight against Robert, I think people belittle too much the play of the horse. Rhaegar is an excellent horse rider who won many joust unlike Robert who is a pure fighter of melee, the prince had huge advantage, on top of that although he managed to strike a blow to Robert the latter wasn't that wounded since he didn't feel the need to be healed immediately. Honestly I don't see that fight as a huge feat for Rhaegar especially as Brandon is a far better horse rider than Robert.
It wasn't Martin it was "canon sources", posted on the ASOIAF board a couple years back.
I do agree that Rhaegar's feat outweighs Brandon's lack of screen time. However I'm not convinced that he couple replicate that feat without being on horseback.
Log in to comment