#1 Edited by Owie (3765 posts) - - Show Bio
#2 Posted by jashro44 (22266 posts) - - Show Bio

Is this star brand as powerful as the new one in avengers?

Online
#3 Posted by Killemall (18598 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:

Is this star brand as powerful as the new one in avengers?

Actually thats the classic Star-brand with virtually no limit and should actually be powerful enough to rival the infinity gauntlet, its all about how much the character is willing to hold back , so far more powerful than what Hickman is potraying it to be.

While i know Hickman went on to write it being a planetary power, here when the same Starbrand is taken by Erskingal, she stood up to Living Tribunal.

Unless held back by plot, any star-brand user, specially the classic star-brand should murderstomp this thread.

BTW notice how LT himself says if they fight it would cause more destruction than Ersingal trying to bend the cosmic axis, clearly showing its up there in power level closer to Living Tribunal.

Also if you get killed using the brand coz you hold back, you get resurrected. If you get hurt using the brand coz you hold back, you get healed. If you want an additional power the brand will subconsciously give it to you.

Those things are deadly powerful.

#4 Posted by Killemall (18598 posts) - - Show Bio

After the above thread, i have virtually no clue how good Kevin was at using its power, or how much he held back. But assuming Kevin is accessing even 1/1000th of the power of the starbrand, Blue Marvel is massively, massively outgunned.

#5 Posted by jashro44 (22266 posts) - - Show Bio

@killemall: I see. So that kid in avengers is holding back a ridiculous amount of power? I guess if Ken has that sort of power he should win this easily.

Online
#6 Posted by Killemall (18598 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44: I dont think the Kevin was holding back, i am more of the opinion that Hickman is making these things more managable in terms of power level. Like how Infinity Gauntlet is a universal power and cant push back a universe when during Infinity Wars an incomplete Gauntlet easily first merged then separated 2 universe. How how mad celestials were able to tank the blast from ultimate nullifier, with some major difficulty, when before Hickman the nullifer has nullified Eternity, as well as Korvac with the power of a boatload of universal abstract.

I think the point is Hickman is making all these hax items a bit more manageable , so he can have people use them more often.

But thats just my view.

#7 Posted by jashro44 (22266 posts) - - Show Bio

@killemall: IIRC Kevin did make a comment about how he was holding back. Also about the gems failing to push back the universe I recall Hickman on forumspring saying that the gems never failed and that cap did. I believe someone in new avengers #3 (I think it was iron man?) said that in order to push back the universe you have to believe that you can push it back or something along those lines which is why cap did it. I interpreted the gauntlet failing as cap just not believing his plan would work. All though from what I have seen of the infinity gauntlet in HIckmans run in scans it does seem weaker.

Online
#8 Posted by Killemall (18598 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44: Kevin was holding back his bit , thats what he said on the last issue. But the whole description of the starbrand as been planetary from Hickman, after all in Avengers 08 the descrption was power to unmake a world.

The IG one makes more sense but i asked him (Hickman) a direct question he replied something a little different and if i am reading his conversation with me correctly, he believes few things about IG had to be tweaked and discarded.

Here is the conversation btw not sure what you would make of it

Also IG being powerless outside its own reality is new as well, in Avengers & Ultraforce as well as Rune solo issue, 616 IG was working just fine way outside in Ultraverse, which is a multiverse of its own outside out prime multiverse.

#9 Edited by Owie (3765 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:

Is this star brand as powerful as the new one in avengers?

I haven't read all of his issues, but I'd say Ken might be about the same as Kevin was in his first fight with the Avengers. It's my guess that the new one will eventually be much more powerful than the classic one.

After the above thread, i have virtually no clue how good Kevin was at using its power, or how much he held back. But assuming Kevin is accessing even 1/1000th of the power of the starbrand, Blue Marvel is massively, massively outgunned.

He's nowhere near the level that the Star Brand becomes in the later Quasar story. In New Universe, the Star Brand was conceived of as a weapon of enormous power, but it was limited by the user's imagination and knowledge. Ken didn't know much about it, he was in a universe with almost no superheroes, and wasn't necessarily the most imaginative guy. So his power level was way, way, way below what it was when it got into the Quasar/Erskingal storyline. Ken is even less powerful than his main New Universe successor, the Star Child, who did have some reality-warping powers. His power level is also probably less than in the newuniversal storyline by Warren Ellis.

Here's a good summary of Ken's power levels, cribbed from the links above:

The most easily attainable powers of the Star Brand are flight, incredible strength, invulnerability and the ability to unleash blasts of destructive energy, up to the equivalent of a nuclear explosion in force (this last power is problematic, as the blast manifests as a sphere centered on the wielder indiscriminately destroying everything in his vicinity). In addition, the brand makes the bearer immortal, preserving him from aging and reviving and regenerating his body upon its violent death (Upon reviving, the Star Brand bearer will first take on a transitory but freakish alien shape before reverting to his normal human appearance; more than once, this has led observers to erroneously believe that the bearer is an alien masquerading as a human). The Star Brand's power also has a minor mutagenic aspect, in that those who wield it for a great number of years will grow taller and more massive. It is possible that all these "basic" abilities are the result of the infinite power of the Star Brand responding to the subconscious desires of the bearer.

The power of the Star Brand must be called up by the bearer's will (except for its preservative properties, which function subconsciously). If the bearer is frightened or disoriented, it is possible for their control to slip and leave him defenseless. Anger focuses the power, and will automatically activate it before the user can consciously do so. In time, the bearer uses the Star Brand instinctively until, if he wishes it, he has to consciously choose to turn it off.

With time, imagination and will, the bearer of the Star Brand can expand its abilities into anything he can conceive of. Early examples are learning to direct its destructive energy into controlled bolts and healing wounds of the bearer or others at will. Expanded powers have included the ability to "burn-out" the powers of other paranormals, creating objects from nothing (up to entire cities), reconstructing and redesigning the bodies of living beings, rendering inert all nuclear warheads on the planet and even time travel. [NOTE: MOST OF THIS WAS STAR-CHILD, NOT KEN]

The Star Brand must be carried by a sentient being, otherwise its energy is spontaneously released in a massive uncontrolled explosion. The two most significant events of the New Universe, the White Event and the destruction of Pittsburgh (later dubbed the Black Event), were caused by attempts to transfer the Star Brand to inanimate objects.

or

As Shooter envisioned the character, Ken Connell was to be the Superman pastiche for Marvel Comics. Basically, he was known as a F.I.S.S. type superhero—Flight, Invulnerability, Super strength, Super speed. He was able to fly, e.g., to the moon in a matter of minutes, through the atmosphere from Pittsburgh to the West Coast of the U.S., and cross the Atlantic Ocean to Libya in much the same time—a few minutes. He showed an ability to reside in space vacuum for extended periods of time. He was virtually indestructible, even in close proximity to a tactical nuclear weapon, yet was able to power-down enough for a haircut and absent-mindedly suffering a paper cut. Bullets did not faze him. He was strong enough to "swim" through solid earth. He demonstrated the ability to release nuclear-weapon-class blasts centered around his body, vaporizing an entire mountain on the moon and turning a huge slag heap into a smoldering crater. Connell did have limited control over the powers, and at one time was overcome by telepathy; he temporarily lost his powers and was beaten senseless.

Through his conscious will, his apparel—notably the denim suit given to him by the Old Man—would also be indestructible.

So, super strong, able to make nuclear-level omni-directional explosions, super fast.

#10 Posted by jashro44 (22266 posts) - - Show Bio
Online
#11 Posted by Owie (3765 posts) - - Show Bio

I started thinking about the similarities between the fight between the current Star Brand (Kevin) and the Avengers, and the fight between Blue Marvel and the Avengers.

Both of them did a pretty good job taking on their respective team. Both knocked a guy into space (Blue Marvel punched Sentry, Star Brand blasted Hulk), and both had that guy land back on top of him, more or less finishing the fight.

Blue Marvel's Avenger team was Sentry, Ms. Marvel, Iron Man, Ares, Wonder Man

Star Brand's Avenger team was Hyperion, Ms. Marvel, Iron Man, Captain America, Hulk, Thor

Star Brand did better; he wasn't knocked out by Hulk falling on him, and fought a somewhat more powerful Avengers team. And, again, the current Star Brand, Kevin, isn't the same as the original, Ken. But I thought there were some interesting parallels there.

#12 Edited by Hyperlight (5936 posts) - - Show Bio

i feel like ken didnt know what he was doing for most of the run and BM is a genius who understands his powers very well. if Ken believes in the power he holds he could win

@owie: u think the newuniversal starbrand is more powerful than the original? im not disagreeing i would just want to know you reasoning. I feel like because the latest one has a designation and a purpose.. it doesnt have the potential of the original.

#13 Edited by Owie (3765 posts) - - Show Bio

i feel like ken didnt know what he was doing for most of the run and BM is a genius who understands his powers very well. if Ken believes in the power he holds he could win

@owie: u think the newuniversal starbrand is more powerful than the original? im not disagreeing i would just want to know you reasoning. I feel like because the latest one has a designation and a purpose.. it doesnt have the potential of the original.

Well, that's a guess on my part based on what I've read about him, I haven't read any of the newuniversal directly. Copying wikipedia's description of him here, the newuniversal's powers included:

flight, creation of energy shields, ability to see and sense electrical energy fields and superhuman energy signatures, trace superhuman teleportation, matter disintegration, melt solid steel, and energy blasts.

Since that's such a wider variety of powers than the New Universe Ken had, I assumed the newuniversal one was more powerful. But I'm very open to persuasion in the other direction.

Your take on the battle makes sense to me. I also see it as a challenge between Blue Marvel's ability to shoot blasts from his hands at any time, vs Ken's limitation of only being able to release nuclear-level energy omnidirectionally, so he has less control. And we have seen that BM can survive nuclear-level explosions. I'd guess Ken's power level is higher, but he has less control and experience.

#14 Posted by New_World_Order (13235 posts) - - Show Bio

Star Brand.

#15 Edited by dondave (37990 posts) - - Show Bio
Online
#16 Edited by Owie (3765 posts) - - Show Bio

I want to throw out some scans of Ken, the Star Brand we're using in this battle, since most people probably don't know him. These aren't necessarily his best feats, they're just what I've got.

I'm also going to post what I've got of Blue Marvel. I didn't bother scanning his fights with Anti-Man, since he's sort of just an evil version of him, but basically Anti-Man is a guy the Avengers couldn't stop on their own at all, and only BM could. Partly that was because BM's powers cancel out Anti-Man's but also BM was the only guy that could stand up to him physically, too.

Sorry these are all out of order, it won't let me change the order they're in.

Star Brand:

Strength: Ken lifts a locomotive (locomotives can be hundreds of tons) and swims through the earth

Ken explains his powers (with low-level examples of his abilities) READ IN THIS ORDER: #2, #3, #4, #1

Ken fights an alien (this is actually 2 separate fights with the same alien; in the first one is an example of his omnidirectional energy burst, which vaporizes an industrial slag heap) READ FROM RIGHT TO LEFT

Ken swims a nuke down to the bottom of the sea so it doesn't hurt anyone else, and survives it, point blank: READ IN THIS ORDER: #3, #1, #2

Ken incinerates a mountain on the moon: READ RIGHT TO LEFT

Weakness: Ken can lose control of his powers if he loses focus or panics: READ LEFT TO RIGHT

Ken wipes out a Libyan army base with ease READ LEFT TO RIGHT

Ken quickly flies to a point in space so distance he can barely see Earth

Blue Marvel

Part of what I think is interesting is that they have done fairly similar things in their limited appearances, like with their flying to distant space, surviving nukes, and wrecking the moon, as you'll see:

Flies to distance space, defeats an alien off panel READ RIGHT TO LEFT

Strength: Blue Marvel lifts a submarine (thousands of tons); The Watcher (that's his voice balloon) says he could have cracked the moon in half

Blue Marvel defeats an alien fleet that the Watcher says could annihilate the Earth: READ #3, #4, #2, #1

Blue Marvel fights the Avengers READ RIGHT TO LEFT

Blue Marvel fights a sea monster READ RIGHT TO LEFT

Blue Marvel lifts an asteroid the size of Arkansas, lifts an aircraft carrier, and survives a nuke point blank

There you go!

#17 Edited by Blacharrt1 (751 posts) - - Show Bio

@owie: quick note, the alien fleet was a lie, in the Blue Marvel story told by the general. That didn't actually happen. But Blue Marvel was fighting Wonderman, Ms. Marvel, Sentry, Ares, Iron Man, all at once. He Ko'ed Sentry with one punch that sent him into orbit. Before that he as holding back.

Another good show of feats was in the heroic age when he fought King Hyperion.

#18 Posted by spiderbuck (2454 posts) - - Show Bio

Blue Marvel, eventually.

#19 Posted by dondave (37990 posts) - - Show Bio

@blacharrt1: What are you talking about; he defeated the scout and then went on the moon where he met Uatu and then faced the alien fleet

Online
#20 Edited by dondave (37990 posts) - - Show Bio
Online
#21 Posted by Owie (3765 posts) - - Show Bio

@owie: quick note, the alien fleet was a lie, in the Blue Marvel story told by the general. That didn't actually happen. But Blue Marvel was fighting Wonderman, Ms. Marvel, Sentry, Ares, Iron Man, all at once. He Ko'ed Sentry with one punch that sent him into orbit. Before that he as holding back.

Another good show of feats was in the heroic age when he fought King Hyperion.

As dondave just said, what are you talking about? The general talked about the original alien (and didn't lie), but we saw him fight the fleet directly. And yes, I showed the scans of him fighting all the Avengers, and knocking the Sentry into orbit (after which Sentry woke up, and flew down onto BM, hurting him enough for him to pass out moments later), in the same post. I think it's arguable whether he was holding back beforehand; it's possible, but he was going up against some heavy hitters, so doing as well as his did was impressive regardless.

I don't have the Hyperion fight, but if you do, and want to post it, that would be much appreciated.

#22 Posted by Blacharrt1 (751 posts) - - Show Bio

@owie: @dondave: You are only showing a scan, and it's not in the context. The avengers go searching for Blue Marvel because of his connection to Anti-Man, and they find government information on him. They then go to a General or someone in the military i don't remember his station, and He is retelling the avengers what happened to the Blue Marvel, he tells the story about the Aliens, but that turned out to be a lie. He then tells them the real story, and that Adam was being watched by the government and the government didn't want a black superpowered hero. The Alien invasion fight in the legend of Adam Basharr wasn't real, is what i'm saying. And you are trying to use it as a feat, when even in the comic they say that didn't actually happen.

#23 Posted by Owie (3765 posts) - - Show Bio

@owie: @dondave: You are only showing a scan, and it's not in the context. The avengers go searching for Blue Marvel because of his connection to Anti-Man, and they find government information on him. They then go to a General or someone in the military i don't remember his station, and He is retelling the avengers what happened to the Blue Marvel, he tells the story about the Aliens, but that turned out to be a lie. He then tells them the real story, and that Adam was being watched by the government and the government didn't want a black superpowered hero. The Alien invasion fight in the legend of Adam Basharr wasn't real, is what i'm saying. And you are trying to use it as a feat, when even in the comic they say that didn't actually happen.

I'm sorry, but you're not correct. You've got some details right, but you're wrong about how it all goes together. Here's the relevant events as they actually unfolded in the series:

Long ago, Blue Marvel is revealed to be black. Kennedy asks him to stop being a superhero and gives him a medal. (Issue 1)

In the present, Iron Man goes to visit one of the generals who was involved. He's clearly racist, and explains how they were watching BM. He says the last time he saw BM was when he went out to stop the ONE alien out on the edge of the solar system. BM beat the alien, but they all decided to pretend he died in the attempt as an excuse for why he was no longer around as a hero. This is the part you're talking about, but even in this case, the events did happen. Blue Marvel did actually defeat the alien. (Issue 2)

BM finds out his wife was a spy, and goes to the moon and finds the medal that Kennedy gave him. He talks with the Watcher, who reminds him of the last time they talked, which was soon after Kennedy gave him the medal. There's a flashback to that time, where BM and the Watcher see the alien armada (which the one solo alien above was a scout for) and BM destroys the armada. It happens in reality. It is not being told in a story. It IS a flashback, but told from BM's point of view. It is totally clear that it actually happened. (Issue 3)

I've got the comics right here in front of me. If you don't believe me, I suggest you try re-reading them yourself.