#101 Edited by Killemall (18469 posts) - - Show Bio

It's fine that you don't agree. I honestly didn't want to approach this argument from a speed perception, because it would turn out something like this. To extent the Surfer wasn't always as fast as he is depicted today - he's never been quite slow - but you get the idea. Personally I don't see Lobo as a particularly fast character. Maybe he has some element of super-speed, but nothing on the levels of Superman.

Czarnia will smite me for saying that, but what's a man to do? The closest thing to speed Lobo's been depicted as having is launching a barrage of punches on a no-name GL.

Why such a hate for Lobo, i see a lot of supposition without no concrete thing to back it up. Lobo was written to be pretty fast in classic days, i can try and look for a scan , pretty sure there are a lot more (but i am not as familiar with Lobo as i am with marvel character). Here's one that i can recall from the top of my head.

I'm not sure about being beaten more consistently by slower characters, although Thor's mentality has landed him a number of losses simply because he used to fight like a moron in most of his one on ones when the writer didn't want Thor to steamroll who he was fighting. And at time's he's actually done what he claimed to, but again If I start mentioning anything point I fear the might of posters who will swamp me to discuss Thor's speed for some godly unknown reason here in this thread. This thread couldn't have less to do with Thor.


You are the one who brought up Thor's speed i did not.

Secondly, look at Thor's rogue gallary: Mangog, Ulik (although Thor pretty much always beats him), Urock, Destroyer Armor, Ego/ Ego Prime etc, all pretty slow when it comes to reaction.

Because we're talking human expressions, being used by a being that isn't human vs otherwise. The writer of that narrative wanted to establish how Thor was doing what he was doing and that was by having Thor moving as fast as the lightning he commands. Albeit it's hard to argue Thor is slower than street levelers, he's still catching tank-shells effortlessly with his hands and have you (not nearly as good as Iron Fist's bullet feat, but you get the idea). I'm confused on the Clark mention there.


The underlined feat, so has Hulk (catching RPG)

We can argue in circles on what you believe the writers intention was, but fact is on panel it says as fast as lightning he commands, while Iron Fist reaction as been described as "faster" than lightning. Even if you wanna hang on to that feat, Iron Fist, has shown better.

How many books has Superman been in that feature the title "SUPERMAN VS WOLVERINE" or are from decades ago when a character like Mongoose was a thing? It's honestly nothing different from Karate Kid flooring pre-crisis Superman or flooring any kryptonian now really. They're all infinitely faster, but he's going to judo chop them all the same.

Karate Kid was constantly shown to be pretty fast, Mongoose wasnt he was unable to actually even tag Spiderman in the same issue he blitz Thor. So there's a difference. Also pretty sure Superman has never said , OMG Karate Kid is faster than I am.

And the rest honestly seems like an excuse a Thor fan would try and make.

I mean if he was really fast, why cant you show me a real feat of Thor (or Silver Surfer) ever actually blitzing anyone? A clearly indication of them running circles around someone? Without trying to over-explain what happened with SS during his fight with Hulk on world war Hulk.

I feel like George Lucas whenever I hear Wolverine VS Thor being brought up in every debate, it's like the Star-Wars Christmas special (canon). The context of the entire book is to have Thor fight Logan, it's like Iron Man vs Thor books where Bleeding Edge isn't getting rolled over by Thor despite showings prior that indicated otherwise.

Hickman having Thor one-shot Logan effortlessly in Uncanny Avengers #2 (?) is unlikely to wash away the stupid of Wolverine vs Thor, but it's better than nothing.


From bottom up, in the next issue Wanda was capable of just standing there, slowing time , before Thor from a short distance could even smite her, and Wanda at that issue was injured, Thor wasnt.

See you can try and nitpick stuffs and all, but fact is Thor isnt shown to be faster, and the only way to actually wash away Thor getting blitzed by Street level would to for Thor to actually show speed, blitz someone, run circles around someone before they can even touch him.

Fact is from bio to writers commentary, has been in regards to Thor being slow. Its just people refusing to accept what is pretty clear.

When Stan was writing him, Thor was the most powerful hero operating in the cosmos - even compared to the Surfer. But I understand you're points.

Yes and people tend to be hanging on to those showing to suggest Thor is fast most often than not. When the clear constant potrayal from the last 3 decades have been otherwise.

#102 Edited by Saren (25569 posts) - - Show Bio

@isaac_clarke said:

I just don't get why Adam Warlock would be using earth themed similes.

Being written by an Earthly writer who wanted to get an idea across is a good enough reason. If the writer wanted to give the impression that the God of Thunder was acting fleet-footed in that showing, "as fast as lightning" is easier for readers to get that meaning than, say "faster than Chiktikka vas Paus" or whatever alien simile should apparently be substituted there.

Honestly, this is a silly point to bring up if you ask me. It's not the first time writers have written extraterrestrial beings with inexplicably human styles of syntax and phrasing, and it certainly won't be the last.

I'm taking it in the context the writer likely wanted me to take it, because that is quite literally the reason Warlock is giving for him and the Surfer to be having the issues they are having with Thor. Feel free to disagree - I just don't see why I wouldn't take it as intended.

I just don't see how your justification for a literal interpretation of Warlock's speed makes any sense. It seems clear to me that the writer wanted to say, basically, "Thor is faster than Warlock!", rather than "Thor is reacting at 62000 miles/second!". It's no different from any of the myriad other occasions where that simile is used. In the scan above, when Iron Fist thinks to himself about how he's reacting faster than lightning, is it not clearly a simile? Or does the writer think Danny is literally faster than lightning, because otherwise I just don't get why Danny is lying to himself in his own head?

I don't know of anyone who wouldn't read that phrase and know it's not to be taken literally but rather as a general expression of Thor being swift.

That's partly because we're looking at two different scans with that initial cut: It's clearly not just the Hulk being launched in the air, but all of them. It doesn't look like they're dodging with their mouths open and all being thrown into the air backwards.

We're looking at the same set of scans; I simply posted the reaction to Surfer's assault. And it doesn't look any of them are being launched or thrown into the air. At best, they're being knocked off-balance. The arena wall we can see behind Korg's head gives a good feel for the positions of all parties involved.

The next page the Hulk is also up, we're missing something in-between when the Surfer gets grabbed, action happened off panel.

We're not missing anything. Hulk and the Warbound being knocked off-balance is not only the most accurate interpretation of events if you ask me, it also explains how Hulk grabbed onto Surfer ---- he simply recovered from the hit and grabbed a dude who was half a foot away from him at the time.

The Silver Savage is a bit more on the limited side, likely no cosmic awareness, being weakened simply being on Sakaar or what have prevented him from smacking them both out of the way. Well we're talking different names. It's hard to call him the Surfer when he's a gladiator that has lost access to his actual powers. He's a complete brute as the Savage, though the Hulk was sporting his new persona at the time so point taken. Albeit he did do a lot of smash smash.

I just find it hard to imagine how you're claiming a nerfed Surfer can blitz-smack Hulk and the Warbound all into the air simultaneously, and reconcile that idea of the Silver Savage with the same nerfed Surfer failing to react to getting hit from two directions at once ----- something you don't need cosmic awareness to do.

And if an example of someone covering a large distance and then putting down (as in putting down, not just knocking them off-balance) multiple foes is required, this should do:

Acknowledging all the Savage/obedience disk/context yada yada, it's a little strange to claim that Planet Hulk showing from the Surfer is supposed to be impressive in any discussion about Surfer's speed when he's doing it to people who have barely superhuman reflexes (and that's pretty much Hulk alone out of that entire group, seeing as none of the others have anything to speak of) while other high-tiers are doing it over vastly greater distances to opponents fast enough to blitz the crap out of the JLA because lol, why not.

It seems more like a bull-rushing feat, which we've got a lot of that from the Surfer. One panel we're in orbit around the moon, the next on mars.

There's certainly more speed involved in that kind of thing than in Surfer punching a stunned Bill twice.

Maybe he slowed down a bit? =)

Sure. More plausible explanation is a writer forgetting what speed radio waves move at ----- although I suppose it's also plausible Quicksilver moved at the speed of light in one showing and then somehow forgot he was that fast in every showing since.

I think you might have missed the point, but yeah context certainly is. I just pointed out how DC doesn't really differentiate when they have slow bricks thrown into the mix or have fast characters getting blitzed by slower characters.

You might have missed the point ----- Clark simply wasn't that fast back then, and quite a few other Superman vs Lobo showings have flown in the face of the fast-characters-getting-blitzed-by-slower-characters point rather severely once Byrne quit the title and other writers started raising the stakes. A curious point to make considering the problems you have with people taking Masterson's Thor's speed showings as relevant for the regular Thor.

It's honestly nothing different from Karate Kid flooring pre-crisis Superman or flooring any kryptonian now really. They're all infinitely faster, but he's going to judo chop them all the same.

The last time Karate Kid tangled with a Kryptonian, she slapped him aside and told him to get a clue. They're different seeing as you're not going to catch Superman admitting Karate Kid is faster than he is. You're more likely to get Karate Kid admitting Superman is faster but <insert reason why he can keep up>. Thor, on the other hand, freely admits Logan is faster than he is.

There's a difference between getting tagged by street-levelers and struggling to keep up with them. Most top-tiers experience the former. Few experience the latter.

Hickman having Thor one-shot Logan effortlessly in Uncanny Avengers #2 (?) is unlikely to wash away the stupid of Wolverine vs Thor, but it's better than nothing.

Remender, not Hickman; and considering Logan was completely powerless at the time, and superhuman agility is one of his powers, why would that lend itself to any kind of argument that Thor's reactions are on Wolverine's level?

But yeah, this is a fairly pointless conversation that's going nowhere pertinent, so I'm fine with ending it here.

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#103 Posted by Evil Incarnate (3787 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm not quite sure if I truly need to chime into this thread as others in favor of the JLA have already done such a good job as far as I can see with stating why the JLA win. I do however think that there are a lot of misconceptions about Silver Surfer and what his abilities and limitations are many or which have been brought up already within the thread.

I don't believe he goes down without a fight and taking a few (Aquaman, GL, possibly Superman as he has exploitable weaknesses.) with him, but I do feel as if he'll lose the battle.

#104 Posted by Perpetr8rMike (590 posts) - - Show Bio

Why are we debating anything with the JLA in it...seriously their fanbois believe that Superman can solo The Presence, Lucifer and Michael simply by being there. All JLA characters are not held by time according to their Fanbois, as each can move in a fraction of a nanosecond in both travel and fight speeds. All of them have the strength to bust planets in casual touches and possibly warp reality.

Superman has permanent plot armor and Dues Ex Machina powers.
Wonder Woman somehow has a permanent connection to Superman in gains power equal to his at all times.

So this is useless. Personally all Superman or JLA topics should be immediately locked and deleted because they are pointless.

#105 Edited by Sethlol (1296 posts) - - Show Bio

SS.

#106 Posted by Saren (25569 posts) - - Show Bio

Why are we debating anything with the JLA in it...seriously their fanbois believe that Superman can solo The Presence, Lucifer and Michael simply by being there. All JLA characters are not held by time according to their Fanbois, as each can move in a fraction of a nanosecond in both travel and fight speeds. All of them have the strength to bust planets in casual touches and possibly warp reality.

Superman has permanent plot armor and Dues Ex Machina powers.

Wonder Woman somehow has a permanent connection to Superman in gains power equal to his at all times.

So this is useless. Personally all Superman or JLA topics should be immediately locked and deleted because they are pointless.

Another county heard from.

Moderator
#107 Posted by Geistmesser (20 posts) - - Show Bio

and martian manhunter cannot be transmuted, given the fact that one of his powers are density shifting.

Controlling his density isn't the same as being resistant to molecular transmutation. Surfer could simply change Manhunter's entire biology into that of a lichen-covered rock, and Manhunter wouldn't be able to turn back -- unless he pops out another power, "anti-transmutation."

#108 Posted by Perpetr8rMike (590 posts) - - Show Bio
#109 Posted by Vaeternus (9410 posts) - - Show Bio

JL, but curious. Who said Superman solos Presence? lol I don't see anyone saying that...that's just as nuts as Hulk beating the JL...

#110 Posted by Evil Incarnate (3787 posts) - - Show Bio

Why are we debating anything with the JLA in it...seriously their fanbois believe that Superman can solo The Presence, Lucifer and Michael simply by being there. All JLA characters are not held by time according to their Fanbois, as each can move in a fraction of a nanosecond in both travel and fight speeds. All of them have the strength to bust planets in casual touches and possibly warp reality.

Superman has permanent plot armor and Dues Ex Machina powers.

Wonder Woman somehow has a permanent connection to Superman in gains power equal to his at all times.

So this is useless. Personally all Superman or JLA topics should be immediately locked and deleted because they are pointless.

You're getting this from where? No one said SS is weak, but many people assume what his power-set implies he can do things that he either hasn't done or can't accomplish easily or under normal circumstances. In this battle he's dealing with numbers. Many including myself have said that he's beat the majority in a one on one battle.

@matmatxm8 said:

and martian manhunter cannot be transmuted, given the fact that one of his powers are density shifting.

Controlling his density isn't the same as being resistant to molecular transmutation. Surfer could simply change Manhunter's entire biology into that of a lichen-covered rock, and Manhunter wouldn't be able to turn back -- unless he pops out another power, "anti-transmutation."

IIRC he has the ability to turn into organic and non-organic matter therefore transmutation isn't a conceivable means of dealing with him.

#111 Posted by P0rtal (872 posts) - - Show Bio

Whoever lands the first hit is going to win, if Superman got hit with Surfers full energy blast, he would lose. However, if Superman physically hit the Surfer, Surfer would lose. Calling it draw, each side has the potential to kill the other. Depends on the scenario and who is more willing to bring their A game in the first instant of the battle.

#112 Posted by Geistmesser (20 posts) - - Show Bio

Controlling his density isn't the same as being resistant to molecular transmutation. Surfer could simply change Manhunter's entire biology into that of a lichen-covered rock, and Manhunter wouldn't be able to turn back -- unless he pops out another power, "anti-transmutation."

IIRC he has the ability to turn into organic and non-organic matter therefore transmutation isn't a conceivable means of dealing with him.

I'm not at all convinced that he has that sort of power. Has that been retconned or is it currently within his scope of abilities? And has he used it recently? On top of that, who else on the team would be immune to transmutation (or at least revert back to normal when affected by it)?

#113 Posted by Evil Incarnate (3787 posts) - - Show Bio

@evil_incarnate said:

Controlling his density isn't the same as being resistant to molecular transmutation. Surfer could simply change Manhunter's entire biology into that of a lichen-covered rock, and Manhunter wouldn't be able to turn back -- unless he pops out another power, "anti-transmutation."

IIRC he has the ability to turn into organic and non-organic matter therefore transmutation isn't a conceivable means of dealing with him.

I'm not at all convinced that he has that sort of power. Has that been retconned or is it currently within his scope of abilities? And has he used it recently? On top of that, who else on the team would be immune to transmutation (or at least revert back to normal when affected by it)?

These are all Pre-52 DC characters. The only thing I can think of is when the JLA were attacked by 4th dimensional beings and a few were transmutated and Wonder Woman being the spirit of truth had her soul separated from her body and returned the others to normal.

#114 Edited by DaAwesome2 (266 posts) - - Show Bio

People keep bringing up Superman dodging SS but without knowing how powerful he is, he's not going to dodge. You'll be hard pressed to show me scans of Superman dodging energy attacks from people without advance knowledge of their power levels/abilities. For every rare scan you show me where he has done it, I promise you I and others on this site can show you at least 10 scans where he just tanks/attempts to tank the shot. That's just his character. Because of that he is potentially the first one to drop in this fight unless MMH scans Surfer's mind and telepathically relays info on what the JLA is up against. Or Hal can scan SS with his ring and let the others know that they gonna have to hit him with everything.

#115 Edited by Ancient_0f_Days (11980 posts) - - Show Bio

lol, JLA wins for reasons I and many others have stated.

#116 Posted by Evil Incarnate (3787 posts) - - Show Bio

lol, JLA wins for reasons I and many others have stated.

Many have thoughts of SS is capable of simply because they believe that he should be able to do with his powerset. If you noticed a lot of the ones that have come in and say that SS win either haven't shown or given any viable reasons as to why he would succeed.

#117 Edited by GhostRider2 (3279 posts) - - Show Bio

@evil_incarnate: don't worry, until MMH realizes whats happening his friends are dead.So yeah i have to admit the only problem is MMH also no one here is capable of fighting Surfer evenly, thats bullshit, he owns them, even as a team they can't put him down.

#118 Edited by TifaLockhart (14044 posts) - - Show Bio

I love how a team of five powerful individuals is said to get curbstomped by one guy and its fanboyism to disagree. Surfer might very well win, but how is thinking the League stands a chance fanboyism?

Edit: used to the big seven.

#119 Posted by Evil Incarnate (3787 posts) - - Show Bio

@evil_incarnate: don't worry, until MMH realizes whats happening his friends are dead.So yeah i have to admit the only problem is MMH also no one here is capable of fighting Surfer evenly, thats bullshit, he owns them, even as a team they can't put him down.

Because people who have demonstrated to have faster combat speed than him, are stronger than him, a weapon that would protect them from his transmutation attacks, etc are incapable of taking on such a threat?

#120 Posted by GhostRider2 (3279 posts) - - Show Bio

@evil_incarnate: i saw how they handled Amazo.Why do you think they are going to do any better against SS?

#121 Posted by Evil Incarnate (3787 posts) - - Show Bio

@evil_incarnate: i saw how they handled Amazo.Why do you think they are going to do any better against SS?

Well for one the way Amazo was handled in the book for most is chalked up to a mix of PIS/CIS both of which do not apply here. Also note that depending on the version of Amazo he had different powerset some could retain specific powers of the core JLA while other could utilize all the power of the entire JLA and their reserves. Look through the thread and reasons why the JLA win have already been posted.

#122 Edited by TifaLockhart (14044 posts) - - Show Bio

... you do realize that Amazo had the powers of Superman, Wonder Woman, Aquaman, Martian Manhunter, Flash, Green Lantern, Batman, Zauriel, Plastic Man, Elongated Man, Blue Beetle, Captain Atom, Firestorm, Steel, Huntress, Ray, Animal Man, Aztek, Lightray, Obsidian, Mr. Miracle, Power Girl, Booster Gold, Jade, Fire, Black Lightning, and the Creeper combined, don't you? That includes the five Leaguers present in this thread themselves.

#123 Edited by MonsterStomp (16692 posts) - - Show Bio

@ghostrider2: Oh god you're such a fanboy. New 52 MMH wouldn't be able to beat SS but Pre 52 sure as hell has it in him.

#124 Posted by Ancient_0f_Days (11980 posts) - - Show Bio

@ancient_0f_days said:

lol, JLA wins for reasons I and many others have stated.

Many have thoughts of SS is capable of simply because they believe that he should be able to do with his powerset. If you noticed a lot of the ones that have come in and say that SS win either haven't shown or given any viable reasons as to why he would succeed.

i know man, its like how they handle Juggernaut and Thor ...

#125 Posted by Saren (25569 posts) - - Show Bio

I love how a team of five powerful individuals is said to get curbstomped by one guy and its fanboyism to disagree. Surfer might very well win, but how is thinking the League stands a chance fanboyism?

Edit: used to the big seven.

It's mostly because a lot of the people on CV who debate for the Surfer have rarely actually read many Surfer stories and have less than reliable ideas of his capabilities and limitations. They just have this general conceptualization of the Surfer in their heads that they apply to all scenarios. With the exception of a few, most of these people see Surfer vs X and go "Surfer! FTL! Black Holes! Stuff!".

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#126 Edited by GhostRider2 (3279 posts) - - Show Bio

@monsterstomp said:

@ghostrider2: Oh god you're such a fanboy. New 52 MMH wouldn't be able to beat SS but Pre 52 sure as hell has it in him.

Oh yes let's start the fanboy thing just because i don't agree that JLA takes this doesn't mean im a fanboy so stop this nonsense, they are in character.And there are users that side with DC even when they lose.And pre 52 or new 52 MMH, he is still going down.

#127 Posted by AngryHulks (3001 posts) - - Show Bio

Surfer is more powerful than any of the individuals, but against even just 5 main members are probably too much to handle at once. Not to mention Surfer's combat speed, while there're 4 or 5 impressive one, most of them are quite worst in comparison to Superman. Well, he should have some chance of winning against 5 with moral rule, but if the JLAs are mutually bloodlusted, then Surfer would get overwhelm eventually.

#128 Posted by PowerWoman (3344 posts) - - Show Bio

SS lose,he cant faster than light,he speed feats just because hyperspace,and CV most people exaggerate him

I think MM can match SS,not need all JLA

#129 Posted by czarny_samael666 (17154 posts) - - Show Bio

Surfer is more powerful than any of the individuals, but against even just 5 main members are probably too much to handle at once. Not to mention Surfer's combat speed, while there're 4 or 5 impressive one, most of them are quite worst in comparison to Superman. Well, he should have some chance of winning against 5 with moral rule, but if the JLAs are mutually bloodlusted, then Surfer would get overwhelm eventually.

None of them can take planet busting attack.

Serious - not bloodlusted - Surfer is using his planet level powers. Bloodlusted Surfer? I am not sure we have seen him more than once, against Morg. And he boost up his strength so high that they destroyed the planet on which they were fighting.

No one from JLA has durability that would allow him to survive explosion that was made when Surfer fought with Ravenous.

#130 Edited by AngryHulks (3001 posts) - - Show Bio

@angryhulks said:

Surfer is more powerful than any of the individuals, but against even just 5 main members are probably too much to handle at once. Not to mention Surfer's combat speed, while there're 4 or 5 impressive one, most of them are quite worst in comparison to Superman. Well, he should have some chance of winning against 5 with moral rule, but if the JLAs are mutually bloodlusted, then Surfer would get overwhelm eventually.

None of them can take planet busting attack.

Serious - not bloodlusted - Surfer is using his planet level powers. Bloodlusted Surfer? I am not sure we have seen him more than once, against Morg. And he boost up his strength so high that they destroyed the planet on which they were fighting.

No one from JLA has durability that would allow him to survive explosion that was made when Surfer fought with Ravenous.

I don't take planet busting as a solution to every problem since I learnt how to debate in DBZ thread. Still he make to make sure that he can land a hit, from all I read about Surfer, his combat speed is still quite questionable. So far, I recalled only 4 or 5 speed feats from Surfer that he ever done throughout the history and not many of them imply that he can fight faster-than-light or at least near light speed. His reaction time is even more inconsistent, I mean, he is probably only few comic characters who can "hold back" perception speed?

#131 Posted by czarny_samael666 (17154 posts) - - Show Bio

@angryhulks:

I don't take planet busting as a solution to every problem since I learnt how to debate in DBZ thread. Still he make to make sure that he can land a hit, from all I read about Surfer, his combat speed is still quite questionable. So far, I recalled only 4 or 5 speed feats from Surfer that he ever done throughout the history and not many of them imply that he can fight faster-than-light or at least near light speed. His reaction time is even more inconsistent, I mean, he is probably only few comic characters who can "hold back" perception speed?

1.How DBZ change anything here? Vegeta, Goku, Frieza - they all can one-shot each one of Team 2 with planet busting shot. Point of that threads is that they don't use it with morals/in character. Here, we have bloodlusted planet buster. No reason to not use this kind of attack.

2.He has nanosecond reaction speed. Only Superman has similar, maybe Wonder Woman has it too. But they are in character with morals - Surfer isn't.

3.All characters are holding back their reaction speed. A specially Superman who was hit by Mongul and Doomsday in the past.

#132 Edited by AngryHulks (3001 posts) - - Show Bio

@angryhulks:

I don't take planet busting as a solution to every problem since I learnt how to debate in DBZ thread. Still he make to make sure that he can land a hit, from all I read about Surfer, his combat speed is still quite questionable. So far, I recalled only 4 or 5 speed feats from Surfer that he ever done throughout the history and not many of them imply that he can fight faster-than-light or at least near light speed. His reaction time is even more inconsistent, I mean, he is probably only few comic characters who can "hold back" perception speed?

1.How DBZ change anything here? Vegeta, Goku, Frieza - they all can one-shot each one of Team 2 with planet busting shot. Point of that threads is that they don't use it with morals/in character. Here, we have bloodlusted planet buster. No reason to not use this kind of attack.

2.He has nanosecond reaction speed. Only Superman has similar, maybe Wonder Woman has it too. But they are in character with morals - Surfer isn't.

3.All characters are holding back their reaction speed. A specially Superman who was hit by Mongul and Doomsday in the past.

1. Ok, I don't know why I'm bringing this up, but I just want to said that just because a character can bust a planet doesn't mean that they can beat anyone who can't.

2. I only know Gladiator and Hyperion have nanosecond reaction speed, Surfer's reaction speed is very questionable and inconsistent. For every (I'm making up number here, but that's something quite similar) 1 Silver Surfer's good speed feats, 9 other would be him getting tagged by Thor and Hulk. I don't remember any instance where it stated that Surfer's reaction speed is in nanosecond even though his higher end feats should indicate he have one. Also, Martian Manhunter also have pretty impressive speed feats, he's only few JLAs who have taken down Flash at least once and giving him trouble in many other instances.

3. This is probably writer's logical faults, holding back perception speed doesn't sounds sensible to me in anyway. But it can also mean that the opponents also possesses some kind of super speed we are not aware of.

#133 Edited by laflux (15044 posts) - - Show Bio

Don't really know where the idea that Superman, Wonder-Woman and MM can't withstand Planet Busting attacks comes from. Superman and Zod were destroying a planet in their fight, Superman has survived being crushed between planets. He was Koed when flying through a moon replica but he vaporized it by flying through it at just under light speed, and unlike Flash, doesn't have the Speed force to protect him. MM has comparable durability as well as crazy regeneration, and Wonder-Woman is on a similar level and has magical bracelets which deflect planet-Busting attacks.

I feel a Bloodlusted Silver Surfer can beat anyone here one on one, but its underselling the JL to say that Surfer can resist MM telepathy, while handing a beat-down to the rest of the team. Morals doesn't mean not fighting or even not killing. Diana has killed people before.

#134 Posted by czarny_samael666 (17154 posts) - - Show Bio

@angryhulks:

1. Ok, I don't know why I'm bringing this up, but I just want to said that just because a character can bust a planet doesn't mean that they can beat anyone who can't.

But they can beat 99% of people who never survived such a shot. Yes - 99%. Only people made out of energy (like Pulsar) and immortals (like Ghost Rider) can try to win with bloodlusted planet busters.

People who are too weak to take it will just die.

2. I only know Gladiator and Hyperion have nanosecond reaction speed, Surfer's reaction speed is very questionable and inconsistent. For every (I'm making up number here, but that's something quite similar) 1 Silver Surfer's good speed feats, 9 other would be him getting tagged by Thor and Hulk. I don't remember any instance where it stated that Surfer's reaction speed is in nanosecond even though his higher end feats should indicate he have one. Also, Martian Manhunter also have pretty impressive speed feats, he's only few JLAs who have taken down Flash at least once and giving him trouble in many other instances.

Surfer also has it:

Tagging by slower means completly nothing. And Martian is nowhere near Flash's speed.

Not that speed would matter here anyway.

3. This is probably writer's logical faults, holding back perception speed doesn't sounds sensible to me in anyway. But it can also mean that the opponents also possesses some kind of super speed we are not aware of.

PIS/CIS. If it wouldn't be PIS/CIS, then all characters would have to be nanosecond reaction speed one.

#135 Posted by Ancient_0f_Days (11980 posts) - - Show Bio

Superman tanked War World blowing up, didn't even knock him out....Hal tanked a Sun blowing up in his face while he shielded Flash....Flash himself can outrun planet busters....Wonder Woman blocked the infinite destructive energies of the Gods....Martian Manhunter can regenerate from goop in seconds ..... but no, a simple planet buster is gonna one shot them, silly me.

#136 Posted by AngryHulks (3001 posts) - - Show Bio

@angryhulks:

1. Ok, I don't know why I'm bringing this up, but I just want to said that just because a character can bust a planet doesn't mean that they can beat anyone who can't.

But they can beat 99% of people who never survived such a shot. Yes - 99%. Only people made out of energy (like Pulsar) and immortals (like Ghost Rider) can try to win with bloodlusted planet busters.

People who are too weak to take it will just die.

2. I only know Gladiator and Hyperion have nanosecond reaction speed, Surfer's reaction speed is very questionable and inconsistent. For every (I'm making up number here, but that's something quite similar) 1 Silver Surfer's good speed feats, 9 other would be him getting tagged by Thor and Hulk. I don't remember any instance where it stated that Surfer's reaction speed is in nanosecond even though his higher end feats should indicate he have one. Also, Martian Manhunter also have pretty impressive speed feats, he's only few JLAs who have taken down Flash at least once and giving him trouble in many other instances.

Surfer also has it:

Tagging by slower means completly nothing. And Martian is nowhere near Flash's speed.

Not that speed would matter here anyway.

3. This is probably writer's logical faults, holding back perception speed doesn't sounds sensible to me in anyway. But it can also mean that the opponents also possesses some kind of super speed we are not aware of.

PIS/CIS. If it wouldn't be PIS/CIS, then all characters would have to be nanosecond reaction speed one.

What makes you think that speed is irrelevant in this battle?

That scan looks a bit old to me, modern Surfer is more powerful, but apparently have less impressive speed feats. Superman with moral on have shown more stated nanosecond reaction speed feats throughout, if I remembered correctly, it's at least 2 or 3 instances, not to mention other speed feats that only belongs to a true speedsters.

#137 Posted by czarny_samael666 (17154 posts) - - Show Bio

Superman tanked War World blowing up, didn't even knock him out....Hal tanked a Sun blowing up in his face while he shielded Flash....Flash himself can outrun planet busters....Wonder Woman blocked the infinite destructive energies of the Gods....Martian Manhunter can regenerate from goop in seconds ..... but no, a simple planet buster is gonna one shot them, silly me.

Yes, simple planet buster will do it.

1.Martian never took such a shot

2.WW never did it too. Her best feat is taking an attack that destryed one mountain.

3.Hal doesn't have auto-shields.

4.Flash is not a part of this battle.

5.Show me Superman doing it with context.

#138 Edited by Ancient_0f_Days (11980 posts) - - Show Bio

Yes, simple planet buster will do it.

1.Martian never took such a shot

2.WW never did it too. Her best feat is taking an attack that destryed one mountain.

3.Hal doesn't have auto-shields.

4.Flash is not a part of this battle.

5.Show me Superman doing it with context.

Too bad he wouldn't be able to hit anyone with it.

The fact that Jonn can utilize intangibility and regen (or just dodge it) means that he can arguably survive a blast of such a caliber .... whether he's gotten hit by one or not doesn't mean he loses ...

Diana (like Jonn) doesn't have to have a planet blow up from under them to show that they have methods of surviving planet busting attacks, Mount Olympus is the home of gods.....I wouldn't compare it to just some random mountain she also blocked a blast from a being who supposedly outclasses 5th dimensional beings, the Quantum Zealot.

Whether Hal has auto shields or not, he can still tank planet busters. Also he can activate his shields fast enough to react to a bloodlusted Barry Allen.

Just giving an example...

Superman was at the planet's core when it blew...

He also survived the destruction of the source wall

He shook off being spiked back to earth from space, causing massive damage to the planet in the process..

Tanked a Super Nova level explosion while weakened by red sun radiation, outran the entropy that followed.

Superman can take a planet buster...since all planets aren't the same size, you can't really generalize ... but if you want to anyway, I can say that any planets that Superman has survived exploding count as good as any.

#139 Edited by isaac_clarke (5448 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't have any particular hate for the character, he's just never struck me as particularly that impressive in speed, at least never in the same league as Superman. Not sure what the scans are here for.

@killemall said:
You are the one who brought up Thor's speed i did not.

Secondly, look at Thor's rogue gallary: Mangog, Ulik (although Thor pretty much always beats him), Urock, Destroyer Armor, Ego/ Ego Prime etc, all pretty slow when it comes to reaction.

As I recall I only pointed out in said scan listed as a low end for the Silver Surfer, Thor wasn't at all slow. Unfortunately since then people threw their hands in the air to argue otherwise with me that their interpretation of a scan where Warlock gives the reasoning why Thor is giving him and Norrin a hard time is because he's damn fast. Regardless of who started it, let's just end it.

@killemall said:
The underlined feat, so has Hulk (catching RPG)

We can argue in circles on what you believe the writers intention was, but fact is on panel it says as fast as lightning he commands, while Iron Fist reaction as been described as "faster" than lightning. Even if you wanna hang on to that feat, Iron Fist, has shown better.

That I believe is an actual better feat, regardless the Hulk isn't particularly slow either in my book. I mean hell, according to Wolverine VS Thor, the Hulk is actually faster than Thor given the majority of the time he's got next to no issues hitting Wolverine. (Note: This is sarcasm, aimed at the ridiculousness of Wolverine VS Thor which is brought up way more times than it ever should be).

I'm not trying to hang onto any feat. I'm saying, that Warlock's entire reason for why Thor was flooring him and the Surfer was because he was that damn fast. In the context of that book at the very least.

@killemall said:
Karate Kid was constantly shown to be pretty fast, Mongoose wasnt he was unable to actually even tag Spiderman in the same issue he blitz Thor. So there's a difference. Also pretty sure Superman has never said , OMG Karate Kid is faster than I am.

And the rest honestly seems like an excuse a Thor fan would try and make.

I mean if he was really fast, why cant you show me a real feat of Thor (or Silver Surfer) ever actually blitzing anyone? A clearly indication of them running circles around someone? Without trying to over-explain what happened with SS during his fight with Hulk on world war Hulk.

Pretty fast isn't Superman fast or realistically any Daxamite or Kryptonian fast either. Quite honestly the character is using his plot-fu to beat senseless people that should annihilate him in every engagement and has been doing so for decades. Have DC title a book Karate Kid vs Superman, have Tieri and Paco Diaz on it and Superman will be muttering how hopelessly slower and unskilled he is while fighting Karate Kid who will be no-show tanking his best hits, at least before Batman swings by and gives him the extra kick to win or something mind-numbingly idiotic like that.

Yes because only a Thor fan would have reservations behind how nonsensical that entire book was. Thor's demolishing a small town just to hit Wolverine, whose appearing in the sky, tanking his lightning bolts and apparently can't be taken out with a Mjolnir toss. Thor has one-shotted Wolverine in Uncanny Avengers, now that is a realistic Thor vs Wolverine fight. He did the same (except with lightning) to Daken. Why is this still such a crutch for people in an argument I have no idea.

Decades of Wolverine, Mongoose or Erik Masterson Thor to teach us I guess? There's the consistency behind this entire themed argument. We've already got at least one showing where the Surfer's repeatedly grabbing and tossing around Nova faster than he could percieve what was going on in this thread, since that passed the CitizenBane test, there's one feat of the Surfer blitzing someone that has on a few occasions pulled an energy blasting speed-blitz.

Define blitz for Thor. What do you want to see and I'll see if my memory can provide you with something worthwhile. Sound good? Preferably do this in a PM so we can stop this Thor nonsense in a Silver Surfer thread.

@killemall said:

From bottom up, in the next issue Wanda was capable of just standing there, slowing time , before Thor from a short distance could even smite her, and Wanda at that issue was injured, Thor wasnt.

See you can try and nitpick stuffs and all, but fact is Thor isnt shown to be faster, and the only way to actually wash away Thor getting blitzed by Street level would to for Thor to actually show speed, blitz someone, run circles around someone before they can even touch him.

Fact is from bio to writers commentary, has been in regards to Thor being slow. Its just people refusing to accept what is pretty clear. Yes and people tend to be hanging on to those showing to suggest Thor is fast most often than not. When the clear constant potrayal from the last 3 decades have been otherwise.

Where's the feat for Wanda? She couldn't hold him back and she had to AMP herself to BFR him. Injured or not that has next to no influence on how her powers even work, Thor on the other hand was under Red Skulls influence (albeit not directly from Xavier's telepathy, but you get the idea) so that is a more legitimate excuse for why he might be fighting at his right mind. Thor was blitzed by Wolverine? I hope you mean Mongoose, because then it's totally fair to use that and ignore anything from decades ago that makes X character not appear that good at Y.

Like I said I have no issue agreeing to disagree, but this whole conversation quite literally started with me pointing out in one scan, for one particular narrative, Thor was described as X fast - namely why he was dominating the Surfer and Adam at once. Now I've got two people breathing down my neck to tell me how slow Thor is.

@citizenbane said:

@isaac_clarke said:

I just don't get why Adam Warlock would be using earth themed similes.

Being written by an Earthly writer who wanted to get an idea across is a good enough reason. If the writer wanted to give the impression that the God of Thunder was acting fleet-footed in that showing, "as fast as lightning" is easier for readers to get that meaning than, say "faster than Chiktikka vas Paus" or whatever alien simile should apparently be substituted there.

Honestly, this is a silly point to bring up if you ask me. It's not the first time writers have written extraterrestrial beings with inexplicably human styles of syntax and phrasing, and it certainly won't be the last.

Wait, so now the writer matters? The writer is justifying Thor's X fast in order to do what he was doing in that narrative through Warlock's dialogue. Either way we're arguing interpretations of the writing and that is going to get no-where fast. It is a silly point to bring up, but so was that scan as a justification for the Surfer being slow - when as far as that book is concerned Thor's actually fast. Now maybe that's because the writer attempts to convey that or simply because it's a comic-book and slow characters fight evenly with much faster characters all the time, but either way that's the context of the situation.

@citizenbane said:

It's a little more than swift if X character is somewhat dominating Y and Z characters.

@citizenbane said:

We're looking at the same set of scans; I simply posted the reaction to Surfer's assault. And it doesn't look any of them are being launched or thrown into the air. At best, they're being knocked off-balance. The arena wall we can see behind Korg's head gives a good feel for the positions of all parties involved.We're not missing anything. Hulk and the Warbound being knocked off-balance is not only the most accurate interpretation of events if you ask me, it also explains how Hulk grabbed onto Surfer ---- he simply recovered from the hit and grabbed a dude who was half a foot away from him at the time.

The ground beneath them is being thrown up, the Surfer is quite literally appearing in the middle of them and some of them are even clearly dropping their weapons from his attack as they are being thrown backward. I have no idea why this is even a debate if the Surfer is clearly knocking them all on their rears / in the air. The Hulk is then seen holding the Surfer's arms, there is a clear lapse of time in-between that initial attack and then, likely because the characters on the ground / grabbing their weapons isn't worth depicting.

You're better off arguing that he did a swirling motion with his Mace and they were too close together, because what you're arguing here doesn't make sense in terms of the context of that fight. There is this very clear depiction of the Surfer appearing right between them all and them all under attack - the Hulk isn't going to bounce off the air (when he's clearly off the ground) and grab the Surfer's arm from that.

@citizenbane said:
I just find it hard to imagine how you're claiming a nerfed Surfer can blitz-smack Hulk and the Warbound all into the air simultaneously, and reconcile that idea of the Silver Savage with the same nerfed Surfer failing to react to getting hit from two directions at once ----- something you don't need cosmic awareness to do.

And if an example of someone covering a large distance and then putting down (as in putting down, not just knocking them off-balance) multiple foes is required, this should do:

Acknowledging all the Savage/obedience disk/context yada yada, it's a little strange to claim that Planet Hulk showing from the Surfer is supposed to be impressive in any discussion about Surfer's speed when he's doing it to people who have barely superhuman reflexes (and that's pretty much Hulk alone out of that entire group, seeing as none of the others have anything to speak of) while other high-tiers are doing it over vastly greater distances to opponents fast enough to blitz the crap out of the JLA because lol, why not.

It's not so much a claim when it was actually happening on panel man. If he's only able to see things through one pair of eyes, I don't see why this is so much of a jump. It's a pretty significant loss for the character in terms of ability to lose cosmic awareness or any assortment of powers outside his physical stats in a fight. I'm not trying to make this showing anything more than it was, it was an example that leaped to mind and nothing more - although it's nonsensical to say that these characters are being knocked unbalanced when their being flown backwards right off their feet - that isn't a balance issue, it's a lack of ground beneath their feet issue.

@citizenbane said:
There's certainly more speed involved in that kind of thing than in Surfer punching a stunned Bill twice.Sure. More plausible explanation is a writer forgetting what speed radio waves move at ----- although I suppose it's also plausible Quicksilver moved at the speed of light in one showing and then somehow forgot he was that fast in every showing since.

Oky doky.

You might have missed the point ----- Clark simply wasn't that fast back then, and quite a few other Superman vs Lobo showings have flown in the face of the fast-characters-getting-blitzed-by-slower-characters point rather severely once Byrne quit the title and other writers started raising the stakes. A curious point to make considering the problems you have with people taking Masterson's Thor's speed showings as relevant for the regular Thor.

I see it as a little different considering:

  • Masterson is a different character
  • Masterson couldn't tag Thor when Thor was trying to talk things out with him. Same fight he admit's Thor's probably stronger.

"The last time Karate Kid tangled with a Kryptonian, she slapped him aside and told him to get a clue. They're different seeing as you're not going to catch Superman admitting Karate Kid is faster than he is. You're more likely to get Karate Kid admitting Superman is faster but <insert reason why he can keep up>. Thor, on the other hand, freely admits Logan is faster than he is.

There's a difference between getting tagged by street-levelers and struggling to keep up with them. Most top-tiers experience the former. Few experience the latter."

The last time Thor 'fought' Wolverine he dropped him in a single hit, doesn't stop everyone from referencing Wolverine vs Thor in every debate pertaining to him. Like I wrote above, get someone at DC to put together a Karate Kid VS Superman one-shot comic and then we what Clark will be admitting to or not.

@citizenbane said:
Remender, not Hickman; and considering Logan was completely powerless at the time, and superhuman agility is one of his powers, why would that lend itself to any kind of argument that Thor's reactions are on Wolverine's level?

But yeah, this is a fairly pointless conversation that's going nowhere pertinent, so I'm fine with ending it here.

While you're right on Hickman not writing, the latter not so much:
He wasn't completely power-less, his healing factor was shut off. That's all the dialogue said, with his X-Gene off that's all that went poof. All of Logan's other stats are un-related or shouldn't immediately disappear with his X-Gene turned off, that doesn't make any sense.
I'm in complete agreement. I'll take any further discussion to PM's after this post.
#140 Edited by czarny_samael666 (17154 posts) - - Show Bio

@ancient_0f_days:

The fact that Jonn can utilize intangibility and regen (or just dodge it) means that he can arguably survive a blast of such a caliber .... whether he's gotten hit by one or not doesn't mean he loses ...

Surfer has better speed feats and Martian isn't bloodlusted. Only Surfer is in this battle. Martian can be KOd, as he was in the past.

Diana (like Jonn) doesn't have to have a planet blow up from under them to show that they have methods of surviving planet busting attacks, Mount Olympus is the home of gods.....I wouldn't compare it to just some random mountain she also blocked a blast from a being who supposedly outclasses 5th dimensional beings, the Quantum Zealot.

1.It doesn't mean that she can survive planet busting attack.

2.Who said that she will start using her reflex? And that Surfer will aim her bracelets? Her bracelets may be indestructible, but her shields made by them are for sure as good as their best feats. If they didn't took planet busting attack - she can't take it.

Whether Hal has auto shields or not, he can still tank planet busters. Also he can activate his shields fast enough to react to a bloodlusted Barry Allen.

1.He doesn't. He would need prep to tell his ring to make auto-shields.

2.Scans? I hope You don't talk about Hal thinking how take JLA, because these were only his dreams.

GL without shields has only human level durability.

Superman was at the planet's core when it blew...

Superman started running from Pluto before explosion started.

He also survived the destruction of the source wall

Very out of context, doesn't prove anything, we don't really see what happened to him.

He shook off being spiked back to earth from space, causing massive damage to the planet in the process..

1.When has it happened? I always wanted to read that comic.

2.He was KOd for years... And it wasn't planet level attack.

Tanked a Super Nova level explosion while weakened by red sun radiation, outran the entropy that followed.

According to these scans explosion never touched him and it is even said that it would kill him.

To this moment Superman can't survive a planet level explosion.

#141 Edited by AngryHulks (3001 posts) - - Show Bio

@ancient_0f_days:

The fact that Jonn can utilize intangibility and regen (or just dodge it) means that he can arguably survive a blast of such a caliber .... whether he's gotten hit by one or not doesn't mean he loses ...

Surfer has better speed feats and Martian isn't bloodlusted. Only Surfer is in this battle. Martian can be KOd, as he was in the past.

Diana (like Jonn) doesn't have to have a planet blow up from under them to show that they have methods of surviving planet busting attacks, Mount Olympus is the home of gods.....I wouldn't compare it to just some random mountain she also blocked a blast from a being who supposedly outclasses 5th dimensional beings, the Quantum Zealot.

1.It doesn't mean that she can survive planet busting attack.

2.Who said that she will start using her reflex? And that Surfer will aim her bracelets? Her bracelets may be indestructible, but her shields made by them are for sure as good as their best feats. If they didn't took planet busting attack - she can't take it.

Whether Hal has auto shields or not, he can still tank planet busters. Also he can activate his shields fast enough to react to a bloodlusted Barry Allen.

1.He doesn't. He would need prep to tell his ring to make auto-shields.

2.Scans? I hope You don't talk about Hal thinking how take JLA, because these were only his dreams.

GL without shields has only human level durability.

Superman was at the planet's core when it blew...

Superman started running from Pluto before explosion started.

He also survived the destruction of the source wall

Very out of context, doesn't prove anything, we don't really see what happened to him.

He shook off being spiked back to earth from space, causing massive damage to the planet in the process..

1.When has it happened? I always wanted to read that comic.

2.He was KOd for years... And it wasn't planet level attack.

Tanked a Super Nova level explosion while weakened by red sun radiation, outran the entropy that followed.

According to these scans explosion never touched him and it is even said that it would kill him.

To this moment Superman can't survive a planet level explosion.

Look at the 4th panel, the planet he was on was clearly decimated.

#142 Posted by czarny_samael666 (17154 posts) - - Show Bio

@angryhulks:

I won't even ask for deatails - Superman is KOd there, so it is not a prove that he can take Surfer's attack.

#143 Posted by Killemall (18469 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't have any particular hate for the character, he's just never struck me as particularly that impressive in speed, at least never in the same league as Superman. Not sure what the scans are here for.

Then i seriously question of wisdom of using a character, who you just believe is slow without any sort of proof, to back the instance that look he blitzed Superman, so slow people have blitzed fast people.

The scans were to show that, in classic era, Lobo was shown to be fast, while at that time Superman wasnt anywhere as fast or powerful, he also got one shotted by Big Barda.

As I recall I only pointed out in said scan listed as a low end for the Silver Surfer, Thor wasn't at all slow. Unfortunately since then people threw their hands in the air to argue otherwise with me that their interpretation of a scan where Warlock gives the reasoning why Thor is giving him and Norrin a hard time is because he's damn fast. Regardless of who started it, let's just end it.

I did not mention anything about Thor's speed in the thread before you were trying to say Thor was fast.

My point was Silver Surfer in pure combat has never been fast, although he probably could be fast, he just hasnt, will address that Nova scan as well but that for later, while you retort to what was no thats because Thor is too fast.

He isnt, neither Thor, nor Adam Warlock, nor Silver Surfer are actually known to fast in combat scenario.

That I believe is an actual better feat, regardless the Hulk isn't particularly slow either in my book. I mean hell, according to Wolverine VS Thor, the Hulk is actually faster than Thor given the majority of the time he's got next to no issues hitting Wolverine. (Note: This is sarcasm, aimed at the ridiculousness of Wolverine VS Thor which is brought up way more times than it ever should be).

I'm not trying to hang onto any feat. I'm saying, that Warlock's entire reason for why Thor was flooring him and the Surfer was because he was that damn fast. In the context of that book at the very least.

Yeah actually majority of the fight, Wolverine runs circles around Hulk, thats pretty much why Hulk vs Wolverine comics are written to begin with, Hulk keeps connecting against Wolverine regularly that would be a one sided stomp.

And you cant deny the fact that Thor did admit he was slower than Wolverine, Thor did get blitzed by a street level who couldnt keep with you Spiderman, Masterson Thor did get blitzed by Spiderman, Thor did get mocked by Chluin for the lack of his speed and being labelled "slow as clouds"

Thor wasnt fast in that book, at least not at speed of Martian Manhunter or Superman, but faster than Adam Warlock. Unless you have any evidence to show yes Thor was in that instance really as far as not just as fast as lightining (compared to Iron Fist being faster than lightning) i dont see what you are trying to argue.

Pretty fast isn't Superman fast or realistically any Daxamite or Kryptonian fast either. Quite honestly the character is using his plot-fu to beat senseless people that should annihilate him in every engagement and has been doing so for decades. Have DC title a book Karate Kid vs Superman, have Tieri and Paco Diaz on it and Superman will be muttering how hopelessly slower and unskilled he is while fighting Karate Kid who will be no-show tanking his best hits, at least before Batman swings by and gives him the extra kick to win or something mind-numbingly idiotic like that.

So now we are going to try and justify Thor, lack of speed, by talking about what you think will happen, in a comics that has never been published??

And there is a big difference between fast guys being tagged by slower ones, but not much of an excuse when Thor gets blitz, mocked, and himself admits he is slower.

Yes because only a Thor fan would have reservations behind how nonsensical that entire book was. Thor's demolishing a small town just to hit Wolverine, whose appearing in the sky, tanking his lightning bolts and apparently can't be taken out with a Mjolnir toss. Thor has one-shotted Wolverine in Uncanny Avengers, now that is a realistic Thor vs Wolverine fight. He did the same (except with lightning) to Daken. Why is this still such a crutch for people in an argument I have no idea.

Who on earth is talking about his striking power, point was Thor himself admitted, when Wolverine cut loose he was faster than Thor.

No one is questioning Thor power to take down Wolverine, but its convinent you ignored it was an injured Wolverine (within his morals bounds) vs Morals off Thor.

Being able to tag someone, and admitting someone is faster when they are using speed is a different thing.

Lets see Surfer has been tagged rather easily by Spiderman even when bloodlusted, Superman has also been tag rather easily by every single person he fought, yet you argue Surfer is fast and him being tagged probably has to do with people NOT using their speed, but the same cant be true for Daken and Wolverine?

Thor gets beat to a pulp by Destroyer Armor, Mangog, Durok (who happens to be the slowest brute in marvel ) but that doesnt show Thor;s lack of speed, but Thor manages to tag Daken and Wolverine, that somehow changes that fact that he on other times has admit he is slower than them?

Decades of Wolverine, Mongoose or Erik Masterson Thor to teach us I guess? There's the consistency behind this entire themed argument. We've already got at least one showing where the Surfer's repeatedly grabbing and tossing around Nova faster than he could percieve what was going on in this thread, since that passed the CitizenBane test, there's one feat of the Surfer blitzing someone that has on a few occasions pulled an energy blasting speed-blitz.

Firstly the bolded part.

So we are convinently going to ignore Nova doing exactly that to Surfer?

And thats ignoring how Nova Prime himself doesnt have any real reaction feat to show for.

And Nova was trying to talk to Galactus when Silver Surfer attack him, which explains why he did not see him. The Nova helmet was also being rebooted by that.

You can try and ignore other scans, and a bit of context in the same issue, it doesnt go away.

No one who you are talking about in the second instance.

There is also an instance of Surfer getting blitz by Gwen, there is also a instance, where Surfer knowing that him fight with Quasar would determine the safety of entire freakin multiverse still manage to get no advantage because of speed in the fight, same quasar who has been blitzed by Makkari and Wizzer.

We also have Silver Sufer getting blitzed by Runner, who lost against Makkari in a galactic race, Makkari zoomed past him, when the issue clearly said Makkari became light, the fastest thing in the universe.

Define blitz for Thor. What do you want to see and I'll see if my memory can provide you with something worthwhile. Sound good? Preferably do this in a PM so we can stop this Thor nonsense in a Silver Surfer thread.

Why define i'll show you:

Something like this

If you dont wanna discuss about Thor here fine, you brought up the topic, you continue to reply to it, just dont reply.

Where's the feat for Wanda? She couldn't hold him back and she had to AMP herself to BFR him. Injured or not that has next to no influence on how her powers even work, Thor on the other hand was under Red Skulls influence (albeit not directly from Xavier's telepathy, but you get the idea) so that is a more legitimate excuse for why he might be fighting at his right mind. Thor was blitzed by Wolverine? I hope you mean Mongoose, because then it's totally fair to use that and ignore anything from decades ago that makes X character not appear that good at Y.

Again, you are saying she couldnt hold him back, thats about "power" NOT "speed".

So a street level, despite being weakened , faced with a bloodlusted Thor, is abal eo move, talk and then slow time down before Thor, who is literally standing right next to her, cant hit him.

Shows he is pretty slow there doesnt he?

Like I said I have no issue agreeing to disagree, but this whole conversation quite literally started with me pointing out in one scan, for one particular narrative, Thor was described as X fast - namely why he was dominating the Surfer and Adam at once. Now I've got two people breathing down my neck to tell me how slow Thor is.

You are the one who brought up Thor's speed to begin with, you are the one who keep trying to say Thor is fast in this thread, and now you are uncomfortable with me and Bane disagreeing with your assessment?

I mean come on, what did you expect.

If you dont want people debating against you, in a topic like this, just humbly say lets not debate this furthur, without trying to reply every paragraph with it.

#144 Edited by Ancient_0f_Days (11980 posts) - - Show Bio

Surfer has better speed feats and Martian isn't bloodlusted. Only Surfer is in this battle. Martian can be KOd, as he was in the past.

Surfer's "Better" speed feats are related to travel and travel ALONE, Jonn however has better combat related speed feats and not just some flying around pinball style. Martian Manhunter doesn't need to be bloodlusted when he can regen from goo and has a team, it's not like Surfer is only fighting Martian Manhunter...how will he get off a "planet buster" if he's getting blocked by Wonder Woman or Hal? It'd be even harder for him to do so with Jonn and Arthur digging though his head, fighting him telepathically (Resisting Moonstone is a nice feat, but Jonn can do worse than Moonstone, Jonn and Arthur together will cripple Norrin)

1.It doesn't mean that she can survive planet busting attack.

2.Who said that she will start using her reflex? And that Surfer will aim her bracelets? Her bracelets may be indestructible, but her shields made by them are for sure as good as their best feats. If they didn't took planet busting attack - she can't take it.

She survived Hades's kill shots, and if she can block attacks like she has, she can block a planet buster...

Who said she "wont" start using her reflex. Are you suggesting she has to turn it on or something? She's faster than Silver Surfer and it doesn't matter what he's aiming at near or on her person, you say that like Wonder Woman doesn't even have to block any projectiles, like they all are just magnetized to the bracelets and everyone just aims at them...The shattered god wasn't "aiming" at Wonder Woman, she blocked nearly every single shattered piece of him flying at the speed of light. Anyway, Wonder Woman can move fast enough to block whatever attack he throws and her forcefield can handle the AoEs. Just because your standards haven't been met it doesn't mean the character has any less of a chance especially with a team.

1.He doesn't. He would need prep to tell his ring to make auto-shields.

2.Scans? I hope You don't talk about Hal thinking how take JLA, because these were only his dreams.

GL without shields has only human level durability.

Wait ... he needs to "tell" his ring to make auto shields, are his auto shields not automatic-shields?

............. Anyway, all he has to do is think it, he doesn't need prep for that and there are factors that would allow him the time needed to make whatever construct he needs to in time....like his team and the fact that he can create shields by thinking it (which im guessing you missed somewhere down the line). From what I remember, Norrin isn't faster than thought in reaction speed ....

Actually, it wasn't Barry, my mistake ... it was Zoom, who thought he was Barry.....

So yeah, his auto shields are more than fast enough.....

Obviously he has human durability without his shields....but then again it's not like he'd actually have them on when he's fighting right? that's totally out of character and it's a one on one right? he'll totally not be able to activate them because he can't react to Norrin...it's not like he reacted to Zoom and Flash before right?....Pfft, course not.

Superman started running from Pluto before explosion started.

He didn't escape the explosion though, still got hit when the planet exploded....still counts.

According to these scans explosion never touched him and it is even said that it would kill him.

To this moment Superman can't survive a planet level explosion.

According to the scans the "entropy" never touched him, the explosion itself did, and if it was equal to the force of 50 supernovas, then the shock wave alone should have obliterated him cus he cant survive "planet busters" lol .....speaking of which ....

#145 Posted by Evil Incarnate (3787 posts) - - Show Bio
#146 Edited by Bane_of_sith (2796 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm curious as to how anyone could put down the surfer. Any ideas? He seems to have ways to beat them but I can't think of anyway they could kill him,,I'm takins SS ftw

#147 Posted by Killemall (18469 posts) - - Show Bio

@bane_of_sith: Telepathy.

@czarny_samael666: Apart from blowing up planet, as a side effect of a battle, when locked horns with people of similar magnitude, when has Surfer even shown that he can fire blast out of his hand that can blow up a planet?

#148 Posted by czarny_samael666 (17154 posts) - - Show Bio

@ancient_0f_days:

Surfer's "Better" speed feats are related to travel and travel ALONE, Jonn however has better combat related speed feats and not just some flying around pinball style. Martian Manhunter doesn't need to be bloodlusted when he can regen from goo and has a team, it's not like Surfer is only fighting Martian Manhunter...how will he get off a "planet buster" if he's getting blocked by Wonder Woman or Hal? It'd be even harder for him to do so with Jonn and Arthur digging though his head, fighting him telepathically (Resisting Moonstone is a nice feat, but Jonn can do worse than Moonstone, Jonn and Arthur together will cripple Norrin)

No, until You count speedblitzing by flying as a travel speed. Plus Surfer has shown that he can use his power in nanosecond.

If all of them would start in character, I would agree that Martian could be a threat to Surfer. But they aren't. Whole JLA would start as they always do, moslty brawl. Surfer will speedblitz them and shoot with AOE energy projection that can level planets. And since they can't survive first wave, there would be no place for response.

She survived Hades's kill shots, and if she can block attacks like she has, she can block a planet buster...

Who said she "wont" start using her reflex. Are you suggesting she has to turn it on or something? She's faster than Silver Surfer and it doesn't matter what he's aiming at near or on her person, you say that like Wonder Woman doesn't even have to block any projectiles, like they all are just magnetized to the bracelets and everyone just aims at them...The shattered god wasn't "aiming" at Wonder Woman, she blocked nearly every single shattered piece of him flying at the speed of light. Anyway, Wonder Woman can move fast enough to block whatever attack he throws and her forcefield can handle the AoEs. Just because your standards haven't been met it doesn't mean the character has any less of a chance especially with a team.

No, if she blocked mountain level attack, she can block other mountain level attacks. It is not a prove that she can take planet busting shots.

And taking attacks from powerfull beings is irrelevant. Surfer took shots from Galactus, but I am not asking You for scan that prove that JLA has to be more powerfull than Galactus.

Yes she has to turn it on, since it is how it does work in comics. If they don't expect fast attack, they can't reflect it. Not my call, for me it is CIS, but CIS isn't banned from CV. If we would ban CIS, then we simply would have a fight out of character.

If WW never blocked anything in this level of power, then there is no reason to belive she can.

Wait ... he needs to "tell" his ring to make auto shields, are his auto shields not automatic-shields?

If he will need it in first miliseconds of fight? Of course he has to. Hal can just think "shields on" and they will be there, but he doesn't have time to think about it and second thing - Lanterns always could be harmed, so blame CIS that Hal doesn't have shields on whole the time.

He didn't escape the explosion though, still got hit when the planet exploded....still counts.

He escaped most of it. Ravenous, Morg and Surfer were all in point zero of the explosion and it is where he will be in this fight.

According to the scans the "entropy" never touched him, the explosion itself did, and if it was equal to the force of 50 supernovas, then the shock wave alone should have obliterated him cus he cant survive "planet busters" lol

It never hit him...

speaking of which ....

Again: he was KOd by this explosion.

@czarny_samael666: Apart from blowing up planet, as a side effect of a battle, when locked horns with people of similar magnitude, when has Surfer even shown that he can fire blast out of his hand that can blow up a planet?

I don't recall such a situation, until You counts creating a black hole or summoning 1/5 energy of our sun. But creating an explosion that is destroying a planet as a side effect? It is more impressive than that, since he didn't even had to point on the plnet to destroy it.

#149 Posted by isaac_clarke (5448 posts) - - Show Bio

The scans were to show that, in classic era, Lobo was shown to be fast, while at that time Superman wasnt anywhere as fast or powerful, he also got one shotted by Big Barda.

So Lobo blitzed a Superman before the writers decided to give him any measure of super-speed - because at the time he wasn't that fast, he just ends up becoming that fast after. Seems legit. I still don't get how defeating half a dozen grunts is worth a mention in regards to speed when you could look at an assortment of characters sporting much better feats that aren't in Superman's league.

Seriously the best feat I've seen out of Lobo for speed was a barrage of punches on a no-name lantern.

My point was Silver Surfer in pure combat has never been fast, although he probably could be fast, he just hasnt, will address that Nova scan as well but that for later, while you retort to what was no thats because Thor is too fast.

He isnt, neither Thor, nor Adam Warlock, nor Silver Surfer are actually known to fast in combat scenario.

Actually initially you weren't talking about Thor's speed. So I got confused in-regards to the context of the conversation. I'll address that god-awful out of context scan from that fight later too. I'm actually disappointed with you on that to be honest. Actually, they are. It's been referenced by them and their opponents before that they are indeed fast - that's kinda the norm for characters like them.

And you cant deny the fact that Thor did admit he was slower than Wolverine, Thor did get blitzed by a street level who couldnt keep with you Spiderman, Masterson Thor did get blitzed by Spiderman, Thor did get mocked by Chluin for the lack of his speed and being labelled "slow as clouds"

Thor wasnt fast in that book, at least not at speed of Martian Manhunter or Superman, but faster than Adam Warlock. Unless you have any evidence to show yes Thor was in that instance really as far as not just as fast as lightining (compared to Iron Fist being faster than lightning) i dont see what you are trying to argue.

'I've seen more than enough fights where a blinded Hulk has had next to no issues hitting Wolverine. More often than not, Wolverine these days isn't fast enough to run circles around the Hulk at all. Here's the issue I take with Thor admitting anything in that book, the entire fight was stupid on-top of stupid. Thor's already shown prior having no issues quite literally frying people with healing-factors, that his hammer could have EASILY connected with Wolverine with a simple toss or that on some level that shouldn't have been a fight at all. Instead they tussle, Wolverine appearing quite literally in the sky to stab Thor and no-show tanking Thor's lightning despite the same bolts turned his son into charred meat.

The kicker that keeps coming to mind is Wolverine did more damage to Thor than most cosmic power-houses have ever done in that fight and that's just stupid.

Oh Masterson Thor?

Masteron's entire narrative consists of being a second-rate Thor who calls himself a Dork

It's a really bad argument to use Masterson as a benchmark for how Thor gets owned in any category when it's all but confirmed that Thor is his superior in every confrontation they've had. Thor's the guy who actually ends up killing an amped Masterson. I have no idea who Chluin is, so I'd rather not comment on a situation I'm not aware of. I'm looking at the intent of the writer, who has Warlock in this narrative justify their handicap because of Thor's speed - outside him dominating in that fight I wouldn't know what else to reference from it.

So now we are going to try and justify Thor, lack of speed, by talking about what you think will happen, in a comics that has never been published??

And there is a big difference between fast guys being tagged by slower ones, but not much of an excuse when Thor gets blitz, mocked, and himself admits he is slower.

If you have the same hack team behind it, expect the same hack results. Realistically any fight between Thor and Wolverine can be ended in so many painful ways for Logan it hurts. Especially with a guy who can teleport you mid sentence light years away. Wolverine VS Thor this, Wolverine VS Thor that - quite honestly, if it wasn't for that book what would you be using as the centerfold of you're arguments?

No one is questioning Thor power to take down Wolverine, but its convinent you ignored it was an injured Wolverine (within his morals bounds) vs Morals off Thor.

Being able to tag someone, and admitting someone is faster when they are using speed is a different thing.

Lets see Surfer has been tagged rather easily by Spiderman even when bloodlusted, Superman has also been tag rather easily by every single person he fought, yet you argue Surfer is fast and him being tagged probably has to do with people NOT using their speed, but the same cant be true for Daken and Wolverine?

Thor gets beat to a pulp by Destroyer Armor, Mangog, Durok (who happens to be the slowest brute in marvel ) but that doesnt show Thor;s lack of speed, but Thor manages to tag Daken and Wolverine, that somehow changes that fact that he on other times has admit he is slower than them?

Someone should have told that to Uncanny Wolverine, to cut loose and dodge Thor's hit / counter with one of his own. Wolverine wasn't injured, he was cut off from his healing factor and that was a MOMENT before slammed his hammer into his face.

If there was some worthwhile injury worth mentioning that inhibited Wolverine from fighting in anyway, please enlighten me. Since we're mentioning Daken and Wolverine over and over, let's take a look!

Thor (Injured) VS Daken (full-health):

Wolverine VS Thor's ending - from the standard for great comic book writing, Wolverine VS Thor:

Don't see an issue with this. Wolverine because of an illusion enchantment becomes a moron who think's Sabertooth has weather control / sports a magic hammer and can stand up to Thor one on one and come out relatively unharmed. If only Daken was anywhere on the same level of Wolverine, he would have no-showed tanked that lightning bolt and then proceeded to finish off Thor on his own.

Although if you'd like to point out where Thor's admitted to being slower than Daken, I'm all ears.

So we are convinently going to ignore Nova doing exactly that to Surfer?

And thats ignoring how Nova Prime himself doesnt have any real reaction feat to show for.

And Nova was trying to talk to Galactus when Silver Surfer attack him, which explains why he did not see him. The Nova helmet was also being rebooted by that.

You can try and ignore other scans, and a bit of context in the same issue, it doesnt go away.

No one who you are talking about in the second instance.

There is also an instance of Surfer getting blitz by Gwen, there is also a instance, where Surfer knowing that him fight with Quasar would determine the safety of entire freakin multiverse still manage to get no advantage because of speed in the fight, same quasar who has been blitzed by Makkari and Wizzer.

We also have Silver Sufer getting blitzed by Runner, who lost against Makkari in a galactic race, Makkari zoomed past him, when the issue clearly said Makkari became light, the fastest thing in the universe.

So we're going to pretend I ignored anything and you didn't just post a scan completely out of context. I normally don't post full size scans - because of spacing, but this warrants it:

Richard turns around to actually charge into the Surfer with everything he's got.
Richard hits the Silver Surfer
Richard is unsure what just happened. He doesn't know if he actually made contact and can't see the Surfer anywhere, who appears behind him completely unharmed.

That was not the same as the start of how that fight was initially. This was the full fight:

The entire fight consists of Nova having issues keeping track of where the Surfer is, initially having no idea he was attacking him and both the World Mind and Richard acknowledging how out-gunned / out-classed they are by the Silver Surfer. That's a very different fight than the one you're describing. Nova's character is built around being the human rocket, as in him being fast. That was before getting the World Mind to do the processing for him:

If you're looking for Nano-second or Pico-second feats, not sure if Nova had any of those listed. The only potential one showing you can use in regards to something to get some idea what ball-park he was in specifically would have to be the Galactus Event. (note: blast that encompassed three star-system's initially and didn't slow.) Since Nova had absolutely no issue defending himself and various others from a blast that was moving at FTL speeds. Outside two very clear indications of being a speedster ring my head:

Either when he was toying around with Drax or when he attempted blitzing Lord Mar-Vell. If you want to pretend the Surfer wasn't showing a clear cut speed advantage on this character, who even when he did attack him couldn't keep track of him - it's all up to you - because regardless Nova himself has a degree of super-speed and the Surfer's blew his out of the water in that showing.

I could care less about Makkari outracing the Flash and the Runner, that has nothing to do with this thread or even the context of the Surfer actually blitzing someone.

Something like this

If you dont wanna discuss about Thor here fine, you brought up the topic, you continue to reply to it, just dont reply.

Nope can't say I've seen Thor do something like that. Hercules is the guy that does the spam punching.

Thor would really need to go out of his way to get to that.

Again, you are saying she couldnt hold him back, thats about "power" NOT "speed".

So a street level, despite being weakened , faced with a bloodlusted Thor, is abal eo move, talk and then slow time down before Thor, who is literally standing right next to her, cant hit him.

Shows he is pretty slow there doesnt he?

He was going to hit her twice, he had a truck slammed into him the first time and Summers came in to blow his entire power reserves just to help slow him down. It's like saying the Hulk can't run ridiculously fast because Cyclops was able to slow him down with his visor blast. I honestly have no idea where you're even getting with this, partly because of the poor writing at the end of these sentences.

@killemall said:

You are the one who brought up Thor's speed to begin with, you are the one who keep trying to say Thor is fast in this thread, and now you are uncomfortable with me and Bane disagreeing with your assessment?

I mean come on, what did you expect.

If you dont want people debating against you, in a topic like this, just humbly say lets not debate this furthur, without trying to reply every paragraph with it.

Because I was under the impression that you were trying to use Thor from a narrative that was supposedly as fast as the lightning he commanded as a low end for the Silver Surfer. I don't have an issue with a good debate, but the complete flip of the switch that came from me pointing out what I thought was a clear intent behind the author of a narrative and the rampant burst of "THOR SLOW" arguments that followed without hesitation in a thread that quite frankly has nothing to do with Thor.

#150 Edited by Killemall (18469 posts) - - Show Bio

@isaac_clarke said:

So Lobo blitzed a Superman before the writers decided to give him any measure of super-speed - because at the time he wasn't that fast, he just ends up becoming that fast after. Seems legit. I still don't get how defeating half a dozen grunts is worth a mention in regards to speed when you could look at an assortment of characters sporting much better feats that aren't in Superman's league.

Seriously the best feat I've seen out of Lobo for speed was a barrage of punches on a no-name lantern.

Again, are you intentionally unwilling to hear what i am trying to say?

Lobo blitzed Superman before, Lobo has shown to use superman against robot, so its pretty clearly Lobo does have some degree of Superspeed, so whats the argument that Lobo isnt fast.

He has fought plentry of fast people before without being on a receiving end of a blitz, only difference being against an Eclipso amped Superman, and has consistently held his own against fast people.

Has few feats outside of Superman fight as well.

So in short there is nothing to show he was slow.

aid:

Actually initially you weren't talking about Thor's speed. So I got confused in-regards to the context of the conversation. I'll address that god-awful out of context scan from that fight later too. I'm actually disappointed with you on that to be honest. Actually, they are. It's been referenced by them and their opponents before that they are indeed fast - that's kinda the norm for characters like them.

Fair enough.

Although Nova apart from flying around at super speed isnt really know to be fast, nor has he ever really shown anything really concrete about speed.

Marvel really, only ever has, fixed speedsters show speed.

'I've seen more than enough fights where a blinded Hulk has had next to no issues hitting Wolverine. More often than not, Wolverine these days isn't fast enough to run circles around the Hulk at all. Here's the issue I take with Thor admitting anything in that book, the entire fight was stupid on-top of stupid. Thor's already shown prior having no issues quite literally frying people with healing-factors, that his hammer could have EASILY connected with Wolverine with a simple toss or that on some level that shouldn't have been a fight at all. Instead they tussle, Wolverine appearing quite literally in the sky to stab Thor and no-show tanking Thor's lightning despite the same bolts turned his son into charred meat.

The kicker that keeps coming to mind is Wolverine did more damage to Thor than most cosmic power-houses have ever done in that fight and that's just stupid.

Oh Masterson Thor?

It's a really bad argument to use Masterson as a benchmark for how Thor gets owned in any category when it's all but confirmed that Thor is his superior in every confrontation they've had. Thor's the guy who actually ends up killing an amped Masterson. I have no idea who Chluin is, so I'd rather not comment on a situation I'm not aware of. I'm looking at the intent of the writer, who has Warlock in this narrative justify their handicap because of Thor's speed - outside him dominating in that fight I wouldn't know what else to reference from it.

Yeah Thor wasnt really that superior to Masterson at all.

I like how you are using only 3 panels from the fights.

Lets look at the full fight.

So a bloodlusted Thor there fights Masterson for a whole issue and cant still win, in fact doesnt even get any real advantage but we are supposed to believe Thor just massively outclasses him?

why?

After all Erik Masterson was Thor. He has all the powers of Thor, and any sort of hyper-perception he would have. Only thing he was missing is experience and skill.

Skill can account for speed, so some small extent, but its not going to make you from slower than Spiderman to as fast as Superman.

Warlock was describing Thor has being as fast as lighting, you can go around in it in circles, thats pretty solidly been debunked, given Iron Fist is faster.

And its not like he blitzed them or anything.

Someone should have told that to Uncanny Wolverine, to cut loose and dodge Thor's hit / counter with one of his own. Wolverine wasn't injured, he was cut off from his healing factor and that was a MOMENT before slammed his hammer into his face.

If there was some worthwhile injury worth mentioning that inhibited Wolverine from fighting in anyway, please enlighten me. Since we're mentioning Daken and Wolverine over and over, let's take a look!

Thor (Injured) VS Daken (full-health):

Wolverine VS Thor's ending - from the standard for great comic book writing, Wolverine VS Thor:

Don't see an issue with this. Wolverine because of an illusion enchantment becomes a moron who think's Sabertooth has weather control / sports a magic hammer and can stand up to Thor one on one and come out relatively unharmed. If only Daken was anywhere on the same level of Wolverine, he would have no-showed tanked that lightning bolt and then proceeded to finish off Thor on his own.

Although if you'd like to point out where Thor's admitted to being slower than Daken, I'm all ears.

Not sure what this says, Thor already got blitzed by Wolverine when he used speed. He also got blitzed by a lot more people.

Pretending you dont like them doesnt make it go away.

And many times has Thor lost to slow people before again?

Goes both ways mate.

(Not addressing the Annihilation scans, coz actually what you said sounds correct, i concede on that part)

Nope can't say I've seen Thor do something like that. Hercules is the guy that does the spam punching.

Thor would really need to go out of his way to get to that.

Yeah that is not something special and that doesnt really show speed.

I can try something similar with Thor when he was getting blitz the same way by Mangog

Still doesnt change the fact that Marvel puts Mangog has one of the slowest brute there is, and puts Hulk and Hercules at same speed, coz they actually are (Hercules of course is more skilled)

Rest is pretty much you making excuse of Thor clear lack of speed.

Lets see.

On panel evidence that Thor is slow and no where close to Superman or the likes in terms of speed:

1. Blitz by Mongoose (The Mighty Thor 391), who cant even tag spiderman

.2. Blitz by Mongoose again (The Mighty Thor 408)

3. Captain America commenting on Thor's Lack of speed (while the person on the scan is Erik Masterson, read Captain America's comment on the right, second last panel) - Thor 447

4. Blitz by Spiderman (this is Erik Masterson) - The Mighty Thor 448

5. Fight with Wolverine - Thor himself admits Wolverine is faster than him, fourth scan last panel, fifth scan first panel.

6. Chulain (a footsoldier of Mikaboshi, someone with no superspeed whatsoever to talk about) comments on how slow Thor is before he KOs him with one bast (Thor Blood Oath 05) - read second scan, second last and last panel.

Writer commentary on Thor is slow

Tom Brevroot doesnt even believe Thor can run at 150 miles per hours, yeah significantly slower than Superman (unless we could flying around with his hammer shows he is fast)

Bio testifies he is slow

Thor bio, power and ability

Speed Superhuman, on his own Thor is just Superhuman

How fast is Superman:

Same bio goes on to say with his hammer he can travel at warp speed.

The way i see it : On panel evidence matches the handbook matches the Writers commentary which is simple, Thor is slow, lot slower than someone like Superman.

Disagree all you want.