#51 Posted by HigorM (4173 posts) - - Show Bio

@higorm: Dont know what to say people are way over-estimating Silver Surfer, pre new 52 Silver Surfer vs Martian Manhunter, by itself is a pretty close fight, which can go either way. Whole JLA vs Sufer should be very one sided.

@thundergodswrath said:

People see the Silver Surfer as this strong? O.o

I was thinking the same :)

Thank you!

Surfer is extremely overrated here..

#52 Posted by nerdork (4039 posts) - - Show Bio

@nerdork: I was actually ust about to post, basically, what @misterwhisper just did. He also doesnt have to go FTL, he can just go Light Speed from the beginning and that will have the same effect as my argument stated before. And since BFR is a mode of victory here, SS can just transmute, like MisterWhisper said, and brought up earlier in the thread. But, darn you for killing my argument. lol

#53 Posted by XiiX (9157 posts) - - Show Bio

@higorm: Dont know what to say people are way over-estimating Silver Surfer, pre new 52 Silver Surfer vs Martian Manhunter, by itself is a pretty close fight, which can go either way. Whole JLA vs Sufer should be very one sided.

@thundergodswrath said:

People see the Silver Surfer as this strong? O.o

I was thinking the same :)

Agreed.

#54 Edited by Esquire (3833 posts) - - Show Bio

@esquire:

That is travel speed, he does not have to travel anywhere to just matter transmute everyone into a rock.

He has crazy good reaction speeds, I will admit not as fast as Wonder Woman or Superman. However they do not start out going for the kill at hyperspeed.

If both sides were bloodlusted SS would die. With them with morals on and him bloodlusted it gives him a huge advantage.

Thanks so much for clarifying that he doesn't have to go FTL to transmute matter. I'm sure there was lots of confusion on that point. Although why you felt it necessary to address that to me I'm not sure. And I never impugned on Surfer's reaction feats. (Although he really doesn't display much in the way of near-light combat speed, if you want to go there.)

Also, Superman has resisted transmutation before, if that's your argument. (Images are right to left, as is par for the new site.)

#55 Posted by uberhikari (2474 posts) - - Show Bio

@higorm: Dont know what to say people are way over-estimating Silver Surfer, pre new 52 Silver Surfer vs Martian Manhunter, by itself is a pretty close fight, which can go either way. Whole JLA vs Sufer should be very one sided.

@thundergodswrath said:

People see the Silver Surfer as this strong? O.o

I was thinking the same :)

I don't think people are overrating SS here. The only reason why pre-New 52 MMH vs SS is even debatable is because of MMH's versatile skill set. Nobody in the JL besides Wally has a skill set as versatile as MMH. In a one-on-one fight Silver Surfer stomps every JL member besides Wally and MMH. Wally isn't in this thread, which only leaves MMH. So you have MMH, who might be able to take Silver Surfer, teamed up with other people that SS would definitely stomp one-on-one.

On top of this you have to take into account the the specifics of this particular match up. This is a bloodlusted Silver Surfer vs a non-bloodlusted JL in a random encounter. A bloodlusted Silver Surfer is going to very quickly kill off at least one person on the JL team before anybody even starts to take the fight seriously.

The fight could very well start like this: Silver Surfer uses cosmic awareness, then drains Superman of yellow sun radiation (or hits Superman with red sun radiation energy blasts or turns the yellow sun radiation in Superman's body into red sun radiation; take your pick), then SS drains Hal's GL ring, then speed blitzes Aquaman. Just starting the fight with cosmic awareness and immediately using energy manipulation/absorption and speed blitz is enough to take out 3 members on the JL team pretty quickly.

#56 Posted by Killemall (18640 posts) - - Show Bio


I don't think people are overrating SS here.

I disagree but i suppose its a difference in opinion.

that still doesnt change the fact that Martian Manhunter is durable enough to hold himself against Silver Sufer, as well as telepathy which should be sufficient to take him down. Sure surfer could take anyone one on one, i still dont see how it would be a stomp against anyone barring Superman and Aquaman, but thats a different issue, but you have 1 character in the thread who can take him alone, the only advantage is that Surfer is bloodlusted, problem being he has few people who can hold their own against Surfer and all he essentially has to do is go intangible and try and TP him, which he should be able to do so.

On top of this you have to take into account the the specifics of this particular match up. This is a bloodlusted Silver Surfer vs a non-bloodlusted JL in a random encounter. A bloodlusted Silver Surfer is going to very quickly kill off at least one person on the JL team before anybody even starts to take the fight seriously.

There really arent many people he can kill as easily here, but thats a different thing. Just because someone isnt bloodlusted doesnt actually mean they are going to sit there and wait for Surfer to take them down either.

The fight could very well start like this: Silver Surfer uses cosmic awareness, then drains Superman of yellow sun radiation (or hits Superman with red sun radiation energy blasts or turns the yellow sun radiation in Superman's body into red sun radiation; take your pick)

My pic would be likely the second, because i see no reason to believer Sufer can drain Superman when we have the sun.

Second likely could work, point being you really think the rest of the JLA will just sit there, or Superman wouldnt even attempt to dodge a blast from Silver Sufer? Why because he isnt bloodlusted?

The way i see it, a bloodlusted SS is going to try and take out Superman and Aquaman first, those are the 2 people he can easily take out, the remaining 3 arent that easy.

Also the moment Surfer goes all out against first Superman, then Aquaman, that should give Martian Manhunter enough time as well as motivation to TP him, he is going to be in trouble right away. Sure i dont think Surfer will go down immediately via TP, but even in worst case MM TP should affect him long enough for someone like Superman or Wonder Woman and jump in a finish the fight.

While rest of the JLA stand there doing nothing because they are not bloodlusted???

SS doesnt have speed advantage over either Superman, Wonder Woman or Martian Manhunter in terms of combat speed, if anything they should have a speed advantage.

To be honest Martian Manhunter and Wonder Woman should really be enough to take him down, given WW reaction time, her ability to call down lightning, her energy shield as well as MM intangibility and telepathy.

That being said i dont see why people think its so easy for SS to take out people one by one, but JLA just stand there doing nothing to defend themselves?

Besides Silver Surfer isnt know for draining stuff very fast, he tried to drain a star, took him reasonable time, and was nearly over-loaded before he could successfully drain it.

#57 Posted by Mortium (666 posts) - - Show Bio

@nerdork: @wavemotioncannon: Yeah that is what I was thinking, if he is going into the fight already bloodlusted, won't just SS just cosmicly distenergrate them?

#58 Posted by uberhikari (2474 posts) - - Show Bio

@killemall:

that still doesnt change the fact that Martian Manhunter is durable enough to hold himself against Silver Sufer, as well as telepathy which should be sufficient to take him down. Sure surfer could take anyone one on one, i still dont see how it would be a stomp against anyone barring Superman and Aquaman, but thats a different issue, but you have 1 character in the thread who can take him alone, the only advantage is that Surfer is bloodlusted, problem being he has few people who can hold their own against Surfer and all he essentially has to do is go intangible and try and TP him, which he should be able to do so.

First, there is no general consensus that MMH could hold his own against SS or even beat him, and if there is such a consensus on this particular site, I'm not aware of it. Second, you make it seem like intangibility + TP is going to be easy considering the situation. If SS decides to blitz MMH first, then the JLA is really screwed. So, even if we assume MMH uses intangibility + TP right from the start it won't always work.

There really arent many people he can kill as easily here, but thats a different thing. Just because someone isnt bloodlusted doesnt actually mean they are going to sit there and wait for Surfer to take them down either.

I'm not arguing that the JLA members will just sit around doing nothing while SS goes on a rampage. I'm simply saying that the fact that the JLA team starts with morals and is not bloodlusted won't allow them to react appropriately and quickly to the threat that a bloodlusted SS poses. The JLA team is already at a disadvantage because the SS can very easily take out at least 2-3 members of the team before the others realize what's happening.

While rest of the JLA stand there doing nothing because they are not bloodlusted???

SS doesnt have speed advantage over either Superman, Wonder Woman or Martian Manhunter in terms of combat speed, if anything they should have a speed advantage.

Can you please stop with the hyperbolic incredulity? I didn't say or imply that the JLA team will just stand around sipping pina colada's, lol. I simply said that he has the time advantage because the other JLA members will be slowed down by the stipulations of the fight, i.e. morals and not bloodlusted.

Moreover, SS has shown FTL combat speed on several occasions. Superman can't go FTL unless he accelerates first; and at best his combat speed showings are inconsistent. And Silver Surfer is many times faster than both WW and MMH. I don't see how MMH and WW could have a speed advantage over Silver Surfer. However, their reaction speed is the same.

To be honest Martian Manhunter and Wonder Woman should really be enough to take him down, given WW reaction time, her ability to call down lightning, her energy shield as well as MM intangibility and telepathy.

That being said i dont see why people think its so easy for SS to take out people one by one, but JLA just stand there doing nothing to defend themselves?

Besides Silver Surfer isnt know for draining stuff very fast, he tried to drain a star, took him reasonable time, and was nearly over-loaded before he could successfully drain it.

None of the stuff you said about Wonder Woman could hurt Silver Surfer. Calling down lightning isn't going to put down SS and energy shields aren't going to protect her from somebody who can create singularities.

Also, just because Silver Surfer isn't known for draining stuff doesn't mean he can't do it. Plus, I consider that star draining feat in Infinity Crusades to be somewhat PIS. Silver Surfer is a cosmic entity who's created black holes but he can't drain a little energy from a star without losing his mind and nearly exploding? Seems dubious. In any event, SS could just turn the energy in the GL ring into something useless, like light or whatever.

I will say this, though, I don't think it will be easy for SS; I certainly don't think it will be a stomp. I think SS definitely kills off Superman, Aquaman, and Hal Jordan. So I think it comes down to WW and MMH vs Silver Surfer. It's not implausible for MMH to keep SS busy with TP while WW beats him up physically. That would work. But in a scenario where SS decides to attack MMH first then that wouldn't work. I say SS takes this battle more often than not.

#59 Posted by isaac_clarke (5460 posts) - - Show Bio

People should care less about black holes and more about the planet busting energy projection he was easily showing off to Ravenous.

#60 Edited by Saren (26027 posts) - - Show Bio

@uberhikari said:

Moreover, SS has shown FTL combat speed on several occasions.

News to me ---- not only has Surfer never displayed FTL combat speed in any fight ever, he's literally never blitzed anyone in his life, beyond playing cosmic pinball with various spaceships and asteroids and the like.

Also, just because Silver Surfer isn't known for draining stuff doesn't mean he can't do it. Plus, I consider that star draining feat in Infinity Crusades to be somewhat PIS. Silver Surfer is a cosmic entity who's created black holes but he can't drain a little energy from a star without losing his mind and nearly exploding? Seems dubious.

What exactly does creating a black hole (setting aside the fact that Surfer had an upgrade in between those two feats) have to do with draining a star?

In any event, SS could just turn the energy in the GL ring into something useless, like light or whatever.

GL's constructs....are....light.....

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#61 Edited by Geistmesser (20 posts) - - Show Bio

#62 Edited by nerdork (4039 posts) - - Show Bio

@

@isaac_clarke said:

People should care less about black holes and more about the planet busting energy projection he was easily showing off to Ravenous.

How bad@$$ was that? And, you are right. Though, SS has multiple ways of winning this fight.

#63 Posted by isaac_clarke (5460 posts) - - Show Bio

@uberhikari said:

Moreover, SS has shown FTL combat speed on several occasions.

News to me ---- not only has Surfer never displayed FTL combat speed in any fight ever, he's literally never blitzed anyone in his life, beyond playing cosmic pinball with various spaceships and asteroids and the like.

Seemed to drop Bill pretty handily in about three punches, quite literally appearing in-front of him on his board (that had just hit him) without Bill being able to do much about it. Although that is not the speed blitz you're looking for - regardless we've already seen the Surfer show off his perception of the world as he cruise around it making an assortment of observations in regards to the happenings of multiple characters without them even noticing him at all - given they were more or less still pictures till he landed on a hill to ponder his own past.

Either way people are putting too much emphasis on speed, matter manipulation or black holes. Quite honestly the energy projection of a blood-lusted Silver Surfer is nothing to scuff off since he doesn't have much of a reason not to level everything around in a blue-blinding light.

#64 Posted by Killemall (18640 posts) - - Show Bio

First, there is no general consensus that MMH could hold his own against SS or even beat him, and if there is such a consensus on this particular site, I'm not aware of it.

Firstly i mentioned absolutely nothing about site consensus.

Secondly, i have read virtually every appearance of Silver Sufer till date, and read most of MM feats (thanks to CitizenBane) so i believe i know what i am talking about.

You wanna debate about it sure i am welcome, but dont pull a consensus card on me man.

I fail to see why not given Martian Manhunter is faster when it comes to reaction time and Surfer is vulnerable to TP.

He needs to have a speed advantage first.

Also i dont think you are familiar with the battle forum rules, unless stated otherwise, every character is willing to fight at the best of their capabilities while bound by their character limitations, so just because Silver Sufer is bloodlusted and JLA doesnt , by no means suggest JLA arent expecting SS to attack or are willing to attack.

Given MM is faster, by the virtue of being able to blitz white martian and holding him own against a bloodlusted flash, while Silver Sufer got blitz by Gyanamade , feats speak for themselves.

I still dont see why it wouldnt work...

I'm not arguing that the JLA members will just sit around doing nothing while SS goes on a rampage. I'm simply saying that the fact that the JLA team starts with morals and is not bloodlusted won't allow them to react appropriately and quickly to the threat that a bloodlusted SS poses.

Why exactly?

JLA know they are in a fight (battle forum rules) are prepared to fight (battle forum rules), are not bound by PIS/CIS (battle forum rules) but will be constrain by morals (i.e. wont do something entirely out of character)

I see no reason to believe Silver Sufer gets any upper hand just because he is bloodlusted in terms of "time".

The only thing that infers is SS is going to use all of his abilities at disposal, JLA are not.

Doesnt mean they are just going to stand around doing nothing.

Again back to my orginal reply no he cant.

1. Superman can dodge a red sun radiation because he has pretty good reaction speed himself.

2. Green Lantern ring can be drained, but it should take surfer a long time to do so, and JLA are just not gonna sit there and let him drain.

Can you please stop with the hyperbolic incredulity? I didn't say or imply that the JLA team will just stand around sipping pina colada's, lol. I simply said that he has the time advantage because the other JLA members will be slowed down by the stipulations of the fight, i.e. morals and not bloodlusted.

Then its a very unreasonable assumption when battle forum rules says they are willing to fight, to their best potential, while bound by their character.

So i dont see why "slowed down by the stipulations of the fight" is a reasonable assumption at all.

Moreover, SS has shown FTL combat speed on several occasions.

So perhaps you can show me a scan of Silver Sufer showing FLT combat speed?

As in what , crashing at people at fast speed?

Doesnt look anywhere close to FLT in combat speed to me :)

Or here :)

And she is under light speed in terms of combat anyways.

Dont know where people get the idea that he is so much faster than everyone else.

In fact current Silver Sufer cant even FLY FLT without accessing hyperspace, let alone fight at FLT speed.

At least Superman doesnt have showing of throwing punches at kicks at actual super-speed, Silver Sufer doesnt. So i dont think inconsistency, specially in terms of reaction speed, is something you wanna pull up for Silver Sufer.

I will wait for you to post speed, but anyone who is faster than Superman in terms of Speed should easily be faster than Silver Sufer.

Why do i believe WW has better reaction speed, because we know she can fight faster than Superman, MMH has blitz white martian who in turn blitz Superman.

They just have far better combat speed than Surfer, whose combat speed, in comicvine is hyperblown.

None of the stuff you said about Wonder Woman could hurt Silver Surfer.

Really? Based on what. Hulk has hurt Silver Surfer just fine, so has Spiderman, Thor even dented his skull, nearly killed him on another occasion (although to be fair that was morals off Thor), Gyanamade who isnt even class 100 hurt him just fine, so has Vision.

Why should i automatically believe her lightning wont hurt Silver Surfer, because he not sold a punch from she hulk?

Really?

Well sure seem to put him down here (again to be fair Thor was bloodlusted in this occasion)

You do realise SS has only ever, once created a black hole, that also because of side effect of him unleasing his energy, which barely lasted a short period of time.

Its not something he has ever shown to control, i dont see why that would be such a great way, given Silver Surfer himself had to run away in fear of getting sucked into the same black hole he created on panel.

Apart from that yeah he has talked about creating black hole on someone's eye, has he ever done so ? no

Also, just because Silver Surfer isn't known for draining stuff doesn't mean he can't do it.

I am not saying he cant, i am saying he cant do it VERY FAST, given JLA enough time to come for help.

Really why?

I cant see a co-relation between being able to create a black hole to being able to drain, and he can get over-loaded if he takes too much energy.

He probably could have drained the whole star if he was given enough time, he wasnt, they wanted to stop the Goddess as soon as possible.

Based on?

His energy manipulation convert absorbing energy, i have never seen him turn one energy into another form, let alone a form of energy he has never seen, after all emotional spectrum isnt something Silver Sufer has ever faced.

I will say this, though, I don't think it will be easy for SS; I certainly don't think it will be a stomp. I think SS definitely kills off Superman, Aquaman, and Hal Jordan. So I think it comes down to WW and MMH vs Silver Surfer. It's not implausible for MMH to keep SS busy with TP while WW beats him up physically. That would work. But in a scenario where SS decides to attack MMH first then that wouldn't work. I say SS takes this battle more often than not.

Well i suppose i have raised enough question to hopefully start getting you to question your conclusion. :)

But we can of course continue as long as you want, let me know when you want me pulling more scans from my collection and handbooks :)

#65 Posted by Saren (26027 posts) - - Show Bio

Seemed to drop Bill pretty handily in about three punches, quite literally appearing in-front of him on his board (that had just hit him) without Bill being able to do much about it.

Setting Bill's own lack of any combat speed worth mentioning aside, I'm not sure why traversing that limited distance in maybe a second is supposed to be impressive. Especially since someone like Wonder Woman, who's not even the fastest person here, has done the same literally-appearing-in-front-of-him trick while lasso'ing up an Amazo with the speed of the Flash that went on to beat the daylights out of Wally West in a speed contest that took place in the arc's sequel.

Although that is not the speed blitz you're looking for - regardless we've already seen the Surfer show off his perception of the world as he cruise around it making an assortment of observations in regards to the happenings of multiple characters without them even noticing him at all - given they were more or less still pictures till he landed on a hill to ponder his own past.

There are Mach level speedsters who have done stuff like this. I'm not sure why this is supposed to be impressive either. Superman has mused at length about Hal Jordan's wasted life while standing still and simultaneously moving so fast that the effects of time being stopped in the area he was in didn't affect him.

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#66 Posted by logy5000 (6088 posts) - - Show Bio

I face-palm when I read a large majority of the posts here.

#67 Posted by Simon_the_digger (3240 posts) - - Show Bio

JLA.

#68 Edited by isaac_clarke (5460 posts) - - Show Bio

@killemall: The scans you posted consisted of the Surfer easily smacking away someone trying to blitz him, the other actually grabbing their weapon as they tried to use their speed against them and the latter was Thor when he was as fast as the lightning he commanded. As much as people like to make Thor synonymous with a slew brute - in that showing he was anything but.

I'm well aware of your stances on Bill's speed, we had a discussion about it a long time ago. Generally people associate the concept of a speed-blitz as a character using their speed in a fight to completely dominate it or at least attempt to as their opponent lacks the ability to react to it. In this case the Surfer allows his board to strike Bill from the back, said board has time to pick the Surfer who capitalizes on Bill in the same moment and proceeds to pummel him down without so much as a tiny bit of resistance. I don't find it particular impressive since it's a generic showing for any character that is faster than another, that isn't remotely exclusive to battle.

The only reason I brought it up is this perception the Surfer has never used his speed to floor people blitzing them. He did the same thing against the Hulk / his war-bound on foot.

These aren't so much a bull-rush as him actually knocking applying that speed in a fight. But don't the wrong idea, I know this isn't the speed-blitz you are looking for and I don't think the Surfer is going to every perform the speed blitz you're looking for despite possessing the speed to likely do so.

I'm not quite sure I've seen a similar feat from Mach characters, the closest similar feat that comes to mind was the run around the globe Zoom and the Flash had (and I mean this only aesthetically - otherwise I expect a steaming amount of angry responses for daring to compare it). But hey, if Mach characters can swing around the world this quickly to find characters of interest more power to them.

It's just one of those feats that show how not only perceptive the character is, but how fast he moves and how quickly he thinks as the rest of the world is frozen in time.

#69 Posted by WillPayton (9726 posts) - - Show Bio

I want to reiterate the sentiment that just because the JLA is not starting bloodlusted doesnt mean that they're not willing to fight at their max potential, within their morals of course. Forum rules are that they will fight at their best.

I also agree that while SS might be able to drain energy from Hal or Superman, it wont be instantaneously. This is where the numbers advantage comes in for the team. They have the speed, which means that if SS tries to fully drain someone he'll be taking hits from the others. Also, even if he has TP resistance, MMH can still make life hard for him. Having to fight off the TP attacks from MMH will make SS slower and less effective, giving the team additional chances to tag him and avoid his attacks.

And as I said before, if SS can kill 1 or 2 on the team, there's a good chance that they might go bloodlusted themselves.

I think SS's chance to win this outright might be if he can blast them all simultaneously with some disintegration/transmutation attack. But, I dont think he can do this because Superman has resisted such attacks, Wonder Woman is magical in nature, MMH can turn intangible and has his own form of regeneration and body/density control, and Hal's ring might also provide protection against this. Aquaman might die right away however.

#70 Edited by HellionVulcan (3867 posts) - - Show Bio

Surfer all the way as the only real threat to him is Manhunter & i do not think he can beat a bloodlusted surfer .

#71 Edited by Pwnostar9 (3 posts) - - Show Bio

@thundergodswrath said:

People see the Silver Surfer as this strong? O.o

Mostly stupid people, I've seen a blood lusted Silver Surfer get swatted away by Drax. I think Surfer can maybe take 2 possibly even 3 but dealing with telepathy and Supes/Hal/Diana's raw power, I don't see him taking it

#72 Posted by Killemall (18640 posts) - - Show Bio

@killemall: The scans you posted consisted of the Surfer easily smacking away someone trying to blitz him, the other actually grabbing their weapon as they tried to use their speed against them and the latter was Thor when he was as fast as the lightning he commanded. As much as people like to make Thor synonymous with a slew brute - in that showing he was anything but.

I see the scan completely different from the way your do.

The first scan i see Gwen actually blitzing Silver Surfer rather easily as thats exactly whats shown on panel

Second scan , which is the continuation of the first scan anyways, Gwen is capable of hitting Silver Sufer while Surfer cant even tag her. Surfer only manages to catch her stick when she slows down.

and i see nothing in that issue to suggest Thor was faster, faster than lightning is something used to define iron fist's reaction time as well. The issue actually shows Surfer as well as Warlock lack of reaction in a combat situation it does nothing to show Thor was faster, and frankly Thor isnt.

We can go around in circles all we want, but the fact that Thor has been blitz, not once, not twice but multiple times , kind of makes it extremely hard to say he actually is fast.

#73 Posted by King Saturn (224817 posts) - - Show Bio

The Justice League might be able to win here...

#74 Posted by isaac_clarke (5460 posts) - - Show Bio

@isaac_clarke said:

@killemall: The scans you posted consisted of the Surfer easily smacking away someone trying to blitz him, the other actually grabbing their weapon as they tried to use their speed against them and the latter was Thor when he was as fast as the lightning he commanded. As much as people like to make Thor synonymous with a slew brute - in that showing he was anything but.

I see the scan completely different from the way your do.

The first scan i see Gwen actually blitzing Silver Surfer rather easily as thats exactly whats shown on panel

Second scan , which is the continuation of the first scan anyways, Gwen is capable of hitting Silver Sufer while Surfer cant even tag her. Surfer only manages to catch her stick when she slows down.

and i see nothing in that issue to suggest Thor was faster, faster than lightning is something used to define iron fist's reaction time as well. The issue actually shows Surfer as well as Warlock lack of reaction in a combat situation it does nothing to show Thor was faster, and frankly Thor isnt.

We can go around in circles all we want, but the fact that Thor has been blitz, not once, not twice but multiple times , kind of makes it extremely hard to say he actually is fast.

She's trying to blitz him, it's just that he casually smacks her off however when he was tired of it. If it was a successful blitz, he wouldn't be able to respond to it at all, much less with his fists. She was trying to kill him, regardless of what he said - so I wouldn't have any idea why she would slow down since she doesn't stop moving till he grabs the staff in her hands.

Same happened to Spider Man when he tried to do the same to Hercules.

Generic lightning has all sorts of speeds, but the emphasis was Thor himself moves as fast as the lightning he commanded. There's a reason why people post that feat around, since it's likely the best showing that explicitly says Thor is actually really fast.

It's all about perspective. Thor being blitzed a handful of times over half a century tells me Marvel writers don't think that in most of his fights speed matters at all.

#75 Edited by Saren (26027 posts) - - Show Bio

the latter was Thor when he was as fast as the lightning he commanded. As much as people like to make Thor synonymous with a slew brute - in that showing he was anything but.

I'm sure this point has been raised ad nauseam, but the repetitive claims that Thor was anything but the slow brute that he is in that particular story because Adam Warlock used a simile to describe his movements being akin to lightning ----- it's a nice feat that makes Thor about as fast as Deathstroke or Batman or Iron Fist or any of the myriad other street levelers who have had their reflexes compared to lightning.

Godspeed!

I'm well aware of your stances on Bill's speed, we had a discussion about it a long time ago. Generally people associate the concept of a speed-blitz as a character using their speed in a fight to completely dominate it or at least attempt to as their opponent lacks the ability to react to it. In this case the Surfer allows his board to strike Bill from the back, said board has time to pick the Surfer who capitalizes on Bill in the same moment and proceeds to pummel him down without so much as a tiny bit of resistance. I don't find it particular impressive since it's a generic showing for any character that is faster than another, that isn't remotely exclusive to battle.

Generally people are also familiar with how a speed-blitz is portrayed, and smacking a character unconscious with two blows while he's stunned doesn't really fit that portrayal. Here's a portrayal of someone being smacked unconscious with two blows that's a tad more in line with what speed-blitzes are supposed to be like, courtesy your friendly neighborhood mind-controlled Kryptonian:

Subtle difference.

The only reason I brought it up is this perception the Surfer has never used his speed to floor people blitzing them. He did the same thing against the Hulk / his war-bound on foot.

These aren't so much a bull-rush as him actually knocking applying that speed in a fight.

Really, in what universe is this a blitz? Surfer moving maybe ten feet forward and hitting Hulk in the face? If that's a blitz, then what's a generic White Martian (of the kind Martian Manhunter slaughtered in droves when he woke up on the wrong side of bed one morning) moving 200 miles forward and punching Clark in the noggin before he has a chance to do anything about it?


Most of these things aren't even slightly impressive compared to most combat speed showings you see from other top-tier characters.

Curious: Aware as you are of my stance regarding Bill's speed, you posted scans of Surfer vs Hulk?

I'm not quite sure I've seen a similar feat from Mach characters, the closest similar feat that comes to mind was the run around the globe Zoom and the Flash had (and I mean this only aesthetically - otherwise I expect a steaming amount of angry responses for daring to compare it)

Aesthetically is pretty much the only way you could mean it.

But hey, if Mach characters can swing around the world this quickly to find characters of interest more power to them.

Quicksilver zipping from Tibet to Indonesia will be happy to hear that.

But don't the wrong idea, I know this isn't the speed-blitz you are looking for and I don't think the Surfer is going to every perform the speed blitz you're looking for despite possessing the speed to likely do so.

Just so we're clear, this is the kind of speed-blitz we're looking for: the kind Spider-Man villains can pull off without a problem while the Surfer probably maybe theoretically hypothetically possibly can.

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#76 Posted by Killemall (18640 posts) - - Show Bio


She's trying to blitz him, it's just that he casually smacks her off however when he was tired of it. If it was a successful blitz, he wouldn't be able to respond to it at all, much less with his fists. She was trying to kill him, regardless of what he said - so I wouldn't have any idea why she would slow down since she doesn't stop moving till he grabs the staff in her hands.

She is clearly blitzing him, she is running circles around him while he is cowering then he says enough to stop her.

So thats as clear a blitz as it gets man.

Then even in the second two scan, she is connecting her hit while dodging everything Surfer throws at her, she only waits when Surfer convinces her that he is not working for her.

Against thats against a person who is under light speed.

Same happened to Spider Man when he tried to do the same to Hercules.

I have no clue which instance you are talking about, but i dont think its relevant. Spiderman is in fact much faster than Hercules.

Generic lightning has all sorts of speeds, but the emphasis was Thor himself moves as fast as the lightning he commanded. There's a reason why people post that feat around, since it's likely the best showing that explicitly says Thor is actually really fast.

Again, as fast as the lightning he commands, is more of smiley than anything else.

it doesnt mean any faster than lightning.

Then here from Iron Fist

"only your faster-than-lightning reaction.."

So while Thor is just fast as lightning, his own or otherwise, Iron Fist is faster :)

It's all about perspective. Thor being blitzed a handful of times over half a century tells me Marvel writers don't think that in most of his fights speed matters at all.

He has lost to super slow brutes like Mangog, and ALL his rogue gallary, no one has fast reaction time.

He fights fast people but in marvel as long as you are in their strength class you can fight people, despite them being faster, unless we are talking about pure speedsters.

I dont think its only about Thor, marvel actually doesnt have a lot of people who were meant to have fast reaction time.

I mean look at quasar and him getting blitz by speedsters, Iron Man getting blitz by speedsters, Silver surfer same thing.

His ability to perceive things fast is one thing, his ability to use that speed in combat is completely another.

#77 Posted by Ancient_0f_Days (12373 posts) - - Show Bio

I want to see valid opinions from veterans of the site....

And now that I've seen them, I'll just quote myself since I was right....

JLA can take it, all accept for Aquaman are fast enough and strong enough to fight evenly with Norrin. As for powers, Hal and Wonder Woman can shield the team from blasts and provide support, Martian Manhunter and Aquaman can battle Surfer mentally (Norrin is resistant to telepathy but isn't immune), Superman may be the only one with an exploitable weakness and Surfer has cosmic awareness...but with all that backup, he can deliver the blows necessary to beat Surfer back..

#78 Posted by czarny_samael666 (17174 posts) - - Show Bio

Silver Surfer pretty easily...

Bloodlusted SS will use planet busting shots around. Who will survive it? Hal? And then what? JLA are in character, they won't use speed and they will not start battle with their best attacks. And before they will realize that it was a mistake, they are already down. They doesn't have a chance.

#79 Edited by isaac_clarke (5460 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm well aware after so many discussions of how pointless this entire conversation will be to either of us. Either was in the story where Thor was looking impressive compared to the Silver Surfer and Adam Warlock, with the writer including that generic reason through Adam Warlock's narration that Thor was as fast as the lightning he commanded. For that one particular narrative, Thor was that fast. It has less to do with generic hyperbole and more to do with a justification for why Thor's able to do what he's doing in that book.

But I don't expect any change from usual here.

That didn't look any different to what the Surfer was doing to Nova in his own book.

But again, this isn't what you're looking for and I apologize for lapse of quality of scans. I'd have to actually dig deep in my pile here or organize them better to find something more consistent.

Not in whatever universe you see only the Hulk getting knocked in the air and not the rest of his war-bound I suppose. The Superman feat looks like one of those more miraculous appear in-front of you feats.

People see what they want to see I guess. : /

Curious: Aware as you are of my stance regarding Bill's speed, you posted scans of Surfer vs Hulk?

Savage vs the Hulk. He wasn't quite the Surfer at the time. To point out a similar situation where he clobber's multiple opponents in a similar showing to his Bill. And I don't expect to impress you or convince you of anything. That's why I walked into this thread muttering on about energy projection, because I was expecting a barrage of the usual if I argued otherwise.

Aesthetically is pretty much the only way you could mean it.

Yep.

Quicksilver zipping from Tibet to Indonesia will be happy to hear that.

Guess Quicksilver only outruns radio-waves on the weekends. Don't see it as impressive - him reading the book in the process was more dazzling.

Just so we're clear, this is the kind of speed-blitz we're looking for: the kind Spider-Man villains can pull off without a problem while the Surfer probably maybe theoretically hypothetically possibly can.

Yep, a dazzling amount of punches.

Something like this:

Or even this:

Or even to extent like this: http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/9/91339/2996409-ih-02-017.jpg

#80 Edited by isaac_clarke (5460 posts) - - Show Bio

So thats as clear a blitz as it gets man.

Then even in the second two scan, she is connecting her hit while dodging everything Surfer throws at her, she only waits when Surfer convinces her that he is not working for her.

Against thats against a person who is under light speed.

I have no clue which instance you are talking about, but i dont think its relevant. Spiderman is in fact much faster than Hercules.

Again, as fast as the lightning he commands, is more of smiley than anything else.

it doesnt mean any faster than lightning.

Then here from Iron Fist

"only your faster-than-lightning reaction.."

So while Thor is just fast as lightning, his own or otherwise, Iron Fist is faster :)

He has lost to super slow brutes like Mangog, and ALL his rogue gallary, no one has fast reaction time.

He fights fast people but in marvel as long as you are in their strength class you can fight people, despite them being faster, unless we are talking about pure speedsters.

I dont think its only about Thor, marvel actually doesnt have a lot of people who were meant to have fast reaction time.

I mean look at quasar and him getting blitz by speedsters, Iron Man getting blitz by speedsters, Silver surfer same thing.

His ability to perceive things fast is one thing, his ability to use that speed in combat is completely another.

Difference of opinion. It's quite honestly the same thing that happens to the Surfer every-time, someone jumps him - he's little puzzled then gets inevitably reaches a breaking point. She didn't wait for anything, he grabbed her while she was speeding in the second set of scans. She still didn't believe him even after he grabbed her. Dodging the Surfer's blasts back in the day wasn't too spectacular a feat given the variance in speed they had.

The Spider / Herc moment is above, enjoy. Spider Man gets tagged too much from people that are supposedly slow then.

You could argue it was hyperbole, but given the writer had Thor doing what he did - Thor for that narrative was that fast. That's really all there is to it. And I get when a character is using a simile, it's just in this case Adam Warlock describes Thor moving as fast as the lightning he shoots from the sky / his hammer.

He would have lost of Mangog even if he was faster. I don't want to dig through Thor's rogue gallery, but I was referring to any interaction he's had the last 50 odd some years.

That isn't only a Marvel thing, DC does it all the time. It's more of a comic thing - Solomon Grundy is worth a mention in that regard.

Context is everything my friend, everyone gets blitzed at one point. Even slow bricks like Lobo have dropped Clark, apparently being claimed to be faster to boot.

#81 Edited by uberhikari (2474 posts) - - Show Bio

This thread has turned into a serious joke. Once people like @killemall start showing scans of Thor beating (a non bloodlusted) Silver Surfer and some chick with a pogo stick "speed blitzing" (a non bloodlusted) Silver Surfer, then there's no point in even continuing. And Spider-Man hurt Silver Surfer before? Really? We're really going there? SMH. I'm done here.

#82 Posted by Jeronimo (731 posts) - - Show Bio

The only issues for SS are MM's TP and WW's lasso.

MM cannot take down SS via TP.

WW's lasso cannot hold something intagible.

SS FTW.

#83 Posted by 18hunt (2948 posts) - - Show Bio

A really serious JLA

#84 Posted by Saren (26027 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm well aware after so many discussions of how pointless this entire conversation will be to either of us. Either was in the story where Thor was looking impressive compared to the Silver Surfer and Adam Warlock, with the writer including that generic reason through Adam Warlock's narration that Thor was as fast as the lightning he commanded. For that one particular narrative, Thor was that fast. It has less to do with generic hyperbole and more to do with a justification for why Thor's able to do what he's doing in that book.

But I don't expect any change from usual here.

As a justification for Thor being faster than him, Warlock could just as easily have used the as-fast-as-lightning simile as a simile and nothing more. It's pretty clear to me that Warlock just meant "Thor's too fast for me", rather than your literal interpretation where Warlock's claiming Thor's moving around at 62000 miles/sec or whatever measure of the speed of lightning you care to employ.

That didn't look any different to what the Surfer was doing to Nova in his own book.

Now we're getting somewhere!

But again, this isn't what you're looking for and I apologize for lapse of quality of scans. I'd have to actually dig deep in my pile here or organize them better to find something more consistent.

Quality of scans isn't an issue, but I think we're both clear on what we're looking for and also clear on Surfer not actually having any showings like that, so it's a non-issue.

Not in whatever universe you see only the Hulk getting knocked in the air and not the rest of his war-bound I suppose.

Unless I'm missing something and you're claiming Surfer simultaneously hit all the Warbound one-by-one so quickly we never got to see him actually do it, it's more likely they were simply leaping out of the way to avoid getting smashed ---- probably explains why Miek and Brood are on their feet right on the next page with no indication of having taken any kind of damage.

And it sure beats me as to why Surfer can't react to Hulk and one member of the Warbound hitting him from two different directions at once --- you know, since he can blitz all of them at once. And that's ignoring the fact that Hulk wasn't quite Hulk in this showing either.

The Superman feat looks like one of those more miraculous appear in-front of you feats.

Kind of my point, ain't it? Zipping across 200 miles and smacking Superman when he knows you're coming is just a teeny bit more impressive than zipping across maybe a hundred meters or so and smacking Bill after he's stunned by something attacking him from behind?

People see what they want to see I guess. : /

Pretty much.

Guess Quicksilver only outruns radio-waves on the weekends. Don't see it as impressive - him reading the book in the process was more dazzling.

Mostly when the writer thinks "faster than radio waves" translates into "run across half the Earth in 92 seconds", because apparently radio waves, and light, are that slow.

Yep, a dazzling amount of punches.

Something like this:

Or even this:

Or even to extent like this: http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/9/91339/2996409-ih-02-017.jpg

The last one; not so much, but the others are better.

Context is everything my friend, everyone gets blitzed at one point. Even slow bricks like Lobo have dropped Clark, apparently being claimed to be faster to boot.

Sure, Lobo blitzes Byrne's nerfed beyond belief Clark, a few years before Clark drops him and Mon-El at the same time and later blitzes Lobo senseless while possessed by Eclipso.

Context really is everything.

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#85 Posted by czarny_samael666 (17174 posts) - - Show Bio

We have barely seen BL SS. He was bl when Galactus throw him against Annihilus Wave. He was bl when he was fighting Morg and destroyed a planet. Maybe in few other situations.

#86 Edited by TifaLockhart (14119 posts) - - Show Bio

Isaac_Clarke still at it, I see.

#87 Posted by nerdork (4039 posts) - - Show Bio

We have barely seen BL SS. He was bl when Galactus throw him against Annihilus Wave. He was bl when he was fighting Morg and destroyed a planet. Maybe in few other situations.

When he tossed Ravenous around while busting a planet in Annihilation.

#88 Edited by Killemall (18640 posts) - - Show Bio

This thread has turned into a serious joke. Once people like @killemall start showing scans of Thor beating (a non bloodlusted) Silver Surfer and some chick with a pogo stick "speed blitzing" (a non bloodlusted) Silver Surfer, then there's no point in even continuing. And Spider-Man hurt Silver Surfer before? Really? We're really going there? SMH. I'm done here.

Not sure what you are trying to say.

So we only use scans from bloodlusted Surfer? I can do that too :)

Here you have a bloodlusted Silver Sufer under the influence of Psycho man, fighting Spiderman and well Spiderman does reasonable well against him

And other instance of Spiderman hurting Silver Surfer would be:

1. Webspinners tale of Spiderman 05

2. Silver Sufer vol 1 14

Secondly you claimed Silver Sufer is FLT in combat i showed you feats against it, not sure what exactly are you complaining about? And the lady with a pogo stick happens to be a pretty decent cosmic character, albiet below class 100.

You claimed Surfer cant be hurt by WW lightning, i showed you a scan of Surfer being hurt by lightning, i dont see what you are complaining about.

Just because i dont agree to what you are saying, and i have got issue number and scans to prove it, doesnt make my argument a joke.

Seriously.. WTF..

Just because you run out of argument doesnt mean you pretend "i am done here"

Difference of opinion. It's quite honestly the same thing that happens to the Surfer every-time, someone jumps him - he's little puzzled then gets inevitably reaches a breaking point. She didn't wait for anything, he grabbed her while she was speeding in the second set of scans. She still didn't believe him even after he grabbed her. Dodging the Surfer's blasts back in the day wasn't too spectacular a feat given the variance in speed they had.

The Spider / Herc moment is above, enjoy. Spider Man gets tagged too much from people that are supposedly slow then.

You could argue it was hyperbole, but given the writer had Thor doing what he did - Thor for that narrative was that fast. That's really all there is to it. And I get when a character is using a simile, it's just in this case Adam Warlock describes Thor moving as fast as the lightning he shoots from the sky / his hammer.

He would have lost of Mangog even if he was faster. I don't want to dig through Thor's rogue gallery, but I was referring to any interaction he's had the last 50 odd some years.

That isn't only a Marvel thing, DC does it all the time. It's more of a comic thing - Solomon Grundy is worth a mention in that regard.

Context is everything my friend, everyone gets blitzed at one point. Even slow bricks like Lobo have dropped Clark, apparently being claimed to be faster to boot.

I can understand what you are saying although i dont agree.

Firstly where is the idea that Lobo is slow coming from? At least in his classic days he was written to be pretty fast.

I dont mind Thor being beaten by slow character, my point was Thor fighting faster character and hence he should be fast is contradicted by 2 things:

a. Those faster characters are not known to blitz, so them not using their speed to their advantage makes more sense.

b. Thor himself has been, more consistently beaten by slower character and hence you can have a skewed view on him beating faster character which would make him faster.

As far as , as fast as lightning goes Iron Fist has matched it, even better it. His micro-second reaction , Iron Fist has that too. So why is it hard to assume Thor is just as fast as Iron Fist as opposed to character like Superman?

And being tagged is one thing, how often have you seen character likes Superman admit Wolverine and Mongoose are faster than them?

There is consistency that shows Thor is slow. Its just what it is.

At least i admit , in classic days, he was written with super-speed when Stan Lee was writing him. Once the editor change so did his powers. And this has been consistent for about 3 decades now.

So while you have grounds to support your view, and i admit that, there is more of evidence against it. We are better of agreeing to disagree.

#89 Edited by Vaeternus (9410 posts) - - Show Bio

@higorm said:

@killemall said:

@higorm: Dont know what to say people are way over-estimating Silver Surfer, pre new 52 Silver Surfer vs Martian Manhunter, by itself is a pretty close fight, which can go either way. Whole JLA vs Sufer should be very one sided.

@thundergodswrath said:

People see the Silver Surfer as this strong? O.o

I was thinking the same :)

Thank you!

Surfer is extremely overrated here..

Agreed 4x ;)

#90 Edited by isaac_clarke (5460 posts) - - Show Bio

@citizenbane said:

As a justification for Thor being faster than him, Warlock could just as easily have used the as-fast-as-lightning simile as a simile and nothing more. It's pretty clear to me that Warlock just meant "Thor's too fast for me", rather than your literal interpretation where Warlock's claiming Thor's moving around at 62000 miles/sec or whatever measure of the speed of lightning you care to employ.

I just don't get why Adam Warlock would be using earth themed similes. If anything it's hyperbole. I'm taking it in the context the writer likely wanted me to take it, because that is quite literally the reason Warlock is giving for him and the Surfer to be having the issues they are having with Thor. Feel free to disagree - I just don't see why I wouldn't take it as intended.

Either way it was me pointing out that it might not be the best showing to define the Silver Surfer's speed because Thor was supposed to that fast in said narrative.

@citizenbane said:

Now we're getting somewhere!
Quality of scans isn't an issue, but I think we're both clear on what we're looking for and also clear on Surfer not actually having any showings like that, so it's a non-issue.

*Shrug* In terms of scans I like having that consistency in quality, it's a point of preference. But I get your point.

@citizenbane said:

Unless I'm missing something and you're claiming Surfer simultaneously hit all the Warbound one-by-one so quickly we never got to see him actually do it, it's more likely they were simply leaping out of the way to avoid getting smashed ---- probably explains why Miek and Brood are on their feet right on the next page with no indication of having taken any kind of damage.

And it sure beats me as to why Surfer can't react to Hulk and one member of the Warbound hitting him from two different directions at once --- you know, since he can blitz all of them at once. And that's ignoring the fact that Hulk wasn't quite Hulk in this showing either.

That's partly because we're looking at two different scans with that initial cut:

It's clearly not just the Hulk being launched in the air, but all of them. It doesn't look like they're dodging with their mouths open and all being thrown into the air backwards. The next page the Hulk is also up, we're missing something in-between when the Surfer gets grabbed, action happened off panel. The Silver Savage is a bit more on the limited side, likely no cosmic awareness, being weakened simply being on Sakaar or what have prevented him from smacking them both out of the way. Its all up to our imaginations, kinda like how the control-disk can even be put on him in the first place.

@citizenbane said:

And it sure beats me as to why Surfer can't react to Hulk and one member of the Warbound hitting him from two different directions at once --- you know, since he can blitz all of them at once. And that's ignoring the fact that Hulk wasn't quite Hulk in this showing either.

Well we're talking different names. It's hard to call him the Surfer when he's a gladiator that has lost access to his actual powers. He's a complete brute as the Savage, though the Hulk was sporting his new persona at the time so point taken. Albeit he did do a lot of smash smash.

@citizenbane said:

Kind of my point, ain't it? Zipping across 200 miles and smacking Superman when he knows you're coming is just a teeny bit more impressive than zipping across maybe a hundred meters or so and smacking Bill after he's stunned by something attacking him from behind?

It seems more like a bull-rushing feat, which we've got a lot of that from the Surfer. One panel we're in orbit around the moon, the next on mars.

Pretty much. Mostly when the writer thinks "faster than radio waves" translates into "run across half the Earth in 92 seconds", because apparently radio waves, and light, are that slow.

The last one; not so much, but the others are better.

Maybe he slowed down a bit? =)

@citizenbane said:

Sure, Lobo blitzes Byrne's nerfed beyond belief Clark, a few years before Clark drops him and Mon-El at the same time and later blitzes Lobo senseless while possessed by Eclipso.

Context really is everything.

I think you might have missed the point, but yeah context certainly is. I just pointed out how DC doesn't really differentiate when they have slow bricks thrown into the mix or have fast characters getting blitzed by slower characters.

Isaac_Clarke still at it, I see.

I was thinking to myself how hilarious would it be if simply mentioning Lobo would summon you.

@nerdork said:

@czarny_samael666 said:

We have barely seen BL SS. He was bl when Galactus throw him against Annihilus Wave. He was bl when he was fighting Morg and destroyed a planet. Maybe in few other situations.

When he tossed Ravenous around while busting a planet in Annihilation.

He wasn't blood-lusted there and spared his life. The Surfer blowing up the planet was him just making a point.

#91 Edited by TifaLockhart (14119 posts) - - Show Bio

Times like this I wish my scanner would work on my iPad.

#92 Posted by nerdork (4039 posts) - - Show Bio

@isaac_clarke: True, SS wasnt BL when he spared Ravenous. I guess I was just trying to prove a point that SS is insanely powerful while even in character, and that a BL SS is a cosmic team buster.

#93 Edited by WillPayton (9726 posts) - - Show Bio

bump

#94 Posted by New_World_Order (13516 posts) - - Show Bio

@thundergodswrath said:

People see the Silver Surfer as this strong? O.o

Mostly stupid people, I've seen a blood lusted Silver Surfer get swatted away by Drax. I think Surfer can maybe take 2 possibly even 3 but dealing with telepathy and Supes/Hal/Diana's raw power, I don't see him taking it

Well to be fair that's Classic Drax who could rip the core out of stars. Although Surfer had just absorbed a star.

#95 Posted by ABC_123_ABC (60 posts) - - Show Bio

JLA will win. SS is powerful, but this is just too much power for him.

#96 Posted by isaac_clarke (5460 posts) - - Show Bio

Times like this I wish my scanner would work on my iPad.

If there's anything worth mentioning I'll post it here for you. Feel free to ask for them in a PM.

@nerdork said:

@isaac_clarke: True, SS wasnt BL when he spared Ravenous. I guess I was just trying to prove a point that SS is insanely powerful while even in character, and that a BL SS is a cosmic team buster.

He certainly is. Quite honestly this team has no answer for his energy project, throwing all those other powers into a mix just makes it more unnecessary argument.

Firstly where is the idea that Lobo is slow coming from? At least in his classic days he was written to be pretty fast.

It's fine that you don't agree. I honestly didn't want to approach this argument from a speed perception, because it would turn out something like this. To extent the Surfer wasn't always as fast as he is depicted today - he's never been quite slow - but you get the idea. Personally I don't see Lobo as a particularly fast character. Maybe he has some element of super-speed, but nothing on the levels of Superman.

Czarnia will smite me for saying that, but what's a man to do? The closest thing to speed Lobo's been depicted as having is launching a barrage of punches on a no-name GL.

I dont mind Thor being beaten by slow character, my point was Thor fighting faster character and hence he should be fast is contradicted by 2 things:

a. Those faster characters are not known to blitz, so them not using their speed to their advantage makes more sense.

b. Thor himself has been, more consistently beaten by slower character and hence you can have a skewed view on him beating faster character which would make him faster.

I'm not sure about being beaten more consistently by slower characters, although Thor's mentality has landed him a number of losses simply because he used to fight like a moron in most of his one on ones when the writer didn't want Thor to steamroll who he was fighting. And at time's he's actually done what he claimed to, but again If I start mentioning anything point I fear the might of posters who will swamp me to discuss Thor's speed for some godly unknown reason here in this thread. This thread couldn't have less to do with Thor.

As far as , as fast as lightning goes Iron Fist has matched it, even better it. His micro-second reaction , Iron Fist has that too. So why is it hard to assume Thor is just as fast as Iron Fist as opposed to character like Superman?

Because we're talking human expressions, being used by a being that isn't human vs otherwise. The writer of that narrative wanted to establish how Thor was doing what he was doing and that was by having Thor moving as fast as the lightning he commands. Albeit it's hard to argue Thor is slower than street levelers, he's still catching tank-shells effortlessly with his hands and have you (not nearly as good as Iron Fist's bullet feat, but you get the idea). I'm confused on the Clark mention there.

And being tagged is one thing, how often have you seen character likes Superman admit Wolverine and Mongoose are faster than them?

How many books has Superman been in that feature the title "SUPERMAN VS WOLVERINE" or are from decades ago when a character like Mongoose was a thing? It's honestly nothing different from Karate Kid flooring pre-crisis Superman or flooring any kryptonian now really. They're all infinitely faster, but he's going to judo chop them all the same.

There is consistency that shows Thor is slow. Its just what it is.

I feel like George Lucas whenever I hear Wolverine VS Thor being brought up in every debate, it's like the Star-Wars Christmas special (canon). The context of the entire book is to have Thor fight Logan, it's like Iron Man vs Thor books where Bleeding Edge isn't getting rolled over by Thor despite showings prior that indicated otherwise.

Hickman having Thor one-shot Logan effortlessly in Uncanny Avengers #2 (?) is unlikely to wash away the stupid of Wolverine vs Thor, but it's better than nothing.

At least i admit , in classic days, he was written with super-speed when Stan Lee was writing him. Once the editor change so did his powers. And this has been consistent for about 3 decades now.

So while you have grounds to support your view, and i admit that, there is more of evidence against it. We are better of agreeing to disagree.

When Stan was writing him, Thor was the most powerful hero operating in the cosmos - even compared to the Surfer. But I understand you're points.

#97 Posted by TifaLockhart (14119 posts) - - Show Bio

You didn't even read the books in question; how are you going to get scans?

#98 Edited by CalebHara (2329 posts) - - Show Bio

JLA

#99 Edited by MonsterStomp (19880 posts) - - Show Bio

I said it once and I'll say it again.. Can SS resist being mind wiped or calmed down? This fight can go from a BL Surfer to a in character Surfer pretty easy.

#100 Edited by matmatxm8 (587 posts) - - Show Bio

@misterwhisper said:

Surfer wins.

Super massive black hole or just transmutes them all.

Uhmm. isn't that superman already sealed a blackhole with his hand.

and martian manhunter cannot be transmuted, given the fact that one of his powers are density shifting.