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#1 Posted by WillPayton (8409 posts) - - Show Bio

Silver Surfer

vs

JLA: Aquaman, Hal Jordan, Martian Manhunter, Superman, Wonder Woman

Random encounter, JLA is pre-52 in character. Silver Surfer is bloodlusted.

#2 Posted by MisterWhisper (1664 posts) - - Show Bio

Surfer wins.

Super massive black hole or just transmutes them all.

#3 Posted by Raw_Material (3207 posts) - - Show Bio

Hmm..this one's a good fight. I'm siding with the JLAers.

#4 Posted by WillPayton (8409 posts) - - Show Bio

@misterwhisper said:

Surfer wins.

Super massive black hole or just transmutes them all.

Not sure a black hole could take down the JLA team when Hal is around. Remember GLs can do things like open wormholes and stuff like that.

#5 Posted by WillPayton (8409 posts) - - Show Bio
#6 Posted by XLR87T3 (1923 posts) - - Show Bio

Silver Surfer annihilates them. Where's Flash at?

#7 Posted by nerdork (3481 posts) - - Show Bio

A bloodlusted SS is will undoubtedly destroy the JLA members here. Where’s Flash?

Norinn Radd for the Murder-Death-Kill

#8 Posted by WillPayton (8409 posts) - - Show Bio

@xlr87t3 said:

Where's Flash at?

@nerdork said:

Where’s Flash?

Flash is too ridiculous to put into battles anymore against anyone who's not a skyfather. Also, I think SS (even bloodlusted) will have his hands full with this bunch, last thing he needs is to get speed-stolen into a statue or get smacked around like Flash did the Anti-Monitor.

SS still needs to deal with MMH and Aquaman's telepathy, Aquaman and WW's magic, MMH's intangibility, Superman's raw power and speed, and Hal Jordan on top of that. Also keep in mind that even though the team starts off in-character, what happens when one of them gets killed? Wont take long before the rest lose their inhibitions.

#9 Posted by SHARKBEARAGATOR (1660 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm going to say JLA 6/10

#10 Edited by nerdork (3481 posts) - - Show Bio

@willpayton: First off, when I say that the JLA loses, I do so with a heavy heart. I actually think I lost a little of my life force by posting it. But, the problem with a bloodlusted SS is that Aquaman won’t have any time to use his telepathy. SS will be able to gauge their powers, and speedblitz them from the start of the fight. By the time that Supes and WW realize they need to speed up, the other members have been neutralized. I know that sounds very one sided, but SS can and will speedblitz the hell out of them. MMH, if he stays intangible will be an intangible issue, but SS can always transmute, with basically nanosecond reaction time. And, Flash would be needed here for the victory, IMO anyways, as he is the only one who can slow SS when bloodlusted. Even if SS is slowed to the speed of smell, he can still drain almost all of their powers, the raw power cosmic and his ability to absorb nearly any form energy. A bloodlusted SS could be argued as being Sky-Father worthy…not completely, but close.

All my opinion BTW.

#11 Edited by Lone_Wolf_and_Cub (4039 posts) - - Show Bio

SS.

#12 Posted by WillPayton (8409 posts) - - Show Bio

@nerdork said:

@willpayton: First off, when I say that the JLA loses, I do so with a heavy heart. I actually think I lost a little of my life force by posting it. But, the problem with a bloodlusted SS is that Aquaman won’t have any time to use his telepathy. SS will be able to gauge their powers, and speedblitz them from the start of the fight. By the time that Supes and WW realize they need to speed up, the other members have been neutralized. I know that sounds very one sided, but SS can and will speedblitz the hell out of them. MMH, if he stays intangible will be an intangible issue, but SS can always transmute, with basically nanosecond reaction time. And, Flash would be needed here for the victory, IMO anyways, as he is the only one who can slow SS when bloodlusted. Even if SS is slowed to the speed of smell, he can still drain almost all of their powers, the raw power cosmic and his ability to absorb nearly any form energy. A bloodlusted SS could be argued as being Sky-Father worthy…not completely, but close.

All my opinion BTW.

All valid enough... except I've never seen evidence that SS has faster combat speed/reaction time than people like Superman or Wonder Woman.

I'm also not sure how much TP resistance he has. Can he stand up to a combined TP attack from MMH and Aquaman? Also, what does he do against magical attacks? WW has her magical equipment and Arthur has the water hand.

#13 Posted by nerdork (3481 posts) - - Show Bio

@willpayton: Ill respond in a little bit, i am leaving from work now. I like a good debate. Be back soon

#14 Edited by DaAwesome2 (266 posts) - - Show Bio

I'mma have to pick the league..too much power here. Although Surfer has a shot if he takes out MMH and GL first. I don't think Arthur/Di/Clark can beat SS unless they go all out. Arthur and Di will be first ones to go all out. It will take Superman awhile to realize it, I think.

#16 Posted by BigCimmerian (7562 posts) - - Show Bio

Silver Surfer destroys.

#17 Posted by comic_book_fan (4469 posts) - - Show Bio

if jl can can keep surfer's energy powers at bay and manhunter can keep his telepathy in check long enough for supes to get in close they have a chance but surfer bloodlusted thats a long shot that they will be able to.

#18 Posted by New_World_Order (11159 posts) - - Show Bio

People see the Silver Surfer as this strong? O.o

#19 Edited by WillPayton (8409 posts) - - Show Bio

@nerdork said:

@willpayton: Ill respond in a little bit, i am leaving from work now. I like a good debate. Be back soon

No prob.

I'mma have to pick the league..too much power here. Although Surfer has a shot if he takes out MMH and GL first. I don't think Arthur/Di/Clark can beat SS unless they go all out. Arthur and Di will be first ones to go all out. It will take Superman awhile to realize it, I think.

Good points. I agree that a lot can change depending on who SS targets first and how long it takes the JLA'ers to go into bloodlust. Like you said, WW and Arthur will go bloodlusted as soon as someone dies. Clark might have to see a couple die before he loses it.

I'm not sure SS can take out MMH first. MMH has speed comparable to Superman and IMO cant be blitzed. He'll go intangible and make with the mind-raping. =)

Hal cant take a full on assault, but if he's not taken out first can be a serious issue for SS. While not as SS's level, Hal can still put out an amazing level of power if he wills it... which he will if he sees someone die. Never underestimate a bloodlusted Hal... seriously.

Then there's the speed issue. Superman and WW are fast as Hell, and WW's combat skills are unmatched. What happens if she gets pissed off an grabs that magical tiara of hers and uses it as a knife against SS? How well does he do when getting hit with magical weapons?

#20 Edited by Jeronimo (672 posts) - - Show Bio

SS FTW.

This is just one of many different scenarios that all lead to the same result:

#21 Edited by uberhikari (1851 posts) - - Show Bio

@willpayton said:

@misterwhisper said:

Surfer wins.

Super massive black hole or just transmutes them all.

Not sure a black hole could take down the JLA team when Hal is around. Remember GLs can do things like open wormholes and stuff like that.

What do wormholes have to do with black holes?

@willpayton

I'm not sure SS can take out MMH first. MMH has speed comparable to Superman and IMO cant be blitzed. He'll go intangible and make with the mind-raping. =)

Hal cant take a full on assault, but if he's not taken out first can be a serious issue for SS. While not as SS's level, Hal can still put out an amazing level of power if he wills it... which he will if he sees someone die. Never underestimate a bloodlusted Hal... seriously.

Then there's the speed issue. Superman and WW are fast as Hell, and WW's combat skills are unmatched. What happens if she gets pissed off an grabs that magical tiara of hers and uses it as a knife against SS? How well does he do when getting hit with magical weapons?

First, Superman doesn't have FTL combat speed. He can't even fly at FTL speeds without first accelerating for quite a long time. And MM has FTL travel speed, but I haven't seen any FTL combat speed showings from him. So, it's certainly not out of the question for SS to blitz them. Especially considering the fact that SS has even blitzed Nova w/ world mind so fast that he couldn't even see him.

Second, there's really not anything in Hal's arsenal that would allow him to take out a bloodlusted SS.

Third, WW throwing around her magical tiara is not taking out a blood lusted SS. It sounds nice in theory but when you think about it for a few seconds you realize it's just not happening. SS is at least just as fast as WW and he has cosmic awareness.

Silver Surfer is just too versatile. TP, intangibility, energy manipulation, matter manipulation, transmutation, etc.

#22 Edited by WillPayton (8409 posts) - - Show Bio

@willpayton said:

@misterwhisper said:

Surfer wins.

Super massive black hole or just transmutes them all.

Not sure a black hole could take down the JLA team when Hal is around. Remember GLs can do things like open wormholes and stuff like that.

What do wormholes have to do with black holes?

Quite a lot. Wormholes and Black Holes are both steep curvatures of space, or gravity wells. In the case of a black hole the curvature is towards the singularity left from a collapsed star... basically just a point-sized volume of space where all the mass of the star now resides. In a wormhole the curvature is also towards a mass of some kind, but the difference is that it curves around and ends up in another part of the universe. Think of it as if you took two black holes and curved the bottoms towards each other until they touch.

But, regardless, the point is that they are related and both would require a massive amount of energy/mass to create or manipulate.

#23 Posted by WillPayton (8409 posts) - - Show Bio

@uberhikari said:

First, Superman doesn't have FTL combat speed. He can't even fly at FTL speeds without first accelerating for quite a long time.

What's "quite a long time"?

Silver Surfer is just too versatile. TP, intangibility, energy manipulation, matter manipulation, transmutation, etc.

I agree none on the team can beat him individually. The question is can they beat him together. I think it's at least debatable. For all of Silver Surfers versatility, the team has more.

#24 Posted by MisterWhisper (1664 posts) - - Show Bio

@willpayton:

Versatility is great. However it does not really matter when you only need one or two abilities to do the job.

Bloodlusted SS could just soul trap them like he did the Champion of the Universe, transmute them to stone, or just expand their molecules until they just plain disintegrate.

If they were morals off they might have a chance, morals on, they die fast and easy.

#25 Edited by dccomicsrule2011 (21278 posts) - - Show Bio

Surfer is not blitzing anyone here(except Aquaman).I like when people bring up SS opening up a black hole when we have no Idea how long it takes said hole to open and in his entire 50 years of continuity he has only done it once.

#26 Posted by momo111191 (243 posts) - - Show Bio

JLA

#27 Posted by Ancient_0f_Days (10238 posts) - - Show Bio

I want to see valid opinions from veterans of the site....as for me, JLA can take it, all accept for Aquaman are fast enough and strong enough to fight evenly with Norrin. As for powers, Hal and Wonder Woman can shield the team from blasts and provide support, Martian Manhunter and Aquaman can battle Surfer mentally (Norrin is resistant to telepathy but isn't immune), Superman may be the only one with an exploitable weakness and Surfer has cosmic awareness...but with all that backup, he can deliver the blows necessary to beat Surfer back..

#28 Posted by WillPayton (8409 posts) - - Show Bio

I want to see valid opinions from veterans of the site....as for me, JLA can take it, all accept for Aquaman are fast enough and strong enough to fight evenly with Norrin. As for powers, Hal and Wonder Woman can shield the team from blasts and provide support, Martian Manhunter and Aquaman can battle Surfer mentally (Norrin is resistant to telepathy but isn't immune), Superman may be the only one with an exploitable weakness and Surfer has cosmic awareness...but with all that backup, he can deliver the blows necessary to beat Surfer back..

Yeah this is what I'm thinking. A bloodlusted SS is tough to deal with, and the team doesnt have the advantage of going in bloodlusted themselves. But they still have the advantages of versatility, raw power, and numbers. Also, as soon as SS takes out one or two of them, the gloves would likely come off. SS needs to deal with TP/intangible attacks from MMH, energy/force manipulation from Hal, speed-blitz from Superman, more speed-blitzing from Wonder Woman.

#29 Posted by MonsterStomp (13143 posts) - - Show Bio

@willpayton: I like how you say there is a chance that the JLA members will become bloodlusted after Surfer drops one. I can just see a slight pause and then eyebrows frown. Just makes this battle interesting. JLA should take this in a tough fight IMO.

#30 Edited by WillPayton (8409 posts) - - Show Bio

@monsterstomp said:

@willpayton: I like how you say there is a chance that the JLA members will become bloodlusted after Surfer drops one. I can just see a slight pause and then eyebrows frown. Just makes this battle interesting. JLA should take this in a tough fight IMO.

I think it's a realistic assumption. Of course it depends on which JLA member we're talking about. WW and Arthur are both the warrior types who wont hold back once it gets real. They might not even wait for someone to die. Superman might still hold on to his morals after 1 casualty, but probably not after 2. After all, these guys are his friends and teammates, not random strangers. Also, Superman has shown that with big threats like Doomsday and Darkseid, he's willing to cut lose. Once the Surfer shows that he's bloodlusted and has killed 1 or 2 members of the team, Supes wont hold back. And I think a similar thing would apply for Hal and J'onn.

#31 Posted by MonsterStomp (13143 posts) - - Show Bio

@willpayton: I just think the JLA have more numbers and versatility to take the win. Depends who SS wants to deal with first. I see the JLA testing SS at first, but when they know he means bussiness, they'll get serious. An angered Hal and J'onn will be fun to watch.

#32 Posted by jackofspades (1860 posts) - - Show Bio

silver surfer wins big time he just has to much raw power

#33 Posted by russellmania77 (13605 posts) - - Show Bio

surfer gets overwhelmed

#34 Posted by Immortal777 (5914 posts) - - Show Bio

JL should take it.

#35 Edited by WaveMotionCannon (4669 posts) - - Show Bio

People are speaking on SS like he's NOT bloodlusted, bloodlusted SS would ANNIHILATE (no pun intended) the JLA. With cosmic awareness, he could do massive amounts of damage before the JLA could react. Power drain GLs ring or Supes solar energy, Aquaman's water hand would be all that's left of him. The only one I see giving him a problem or living long enough to be a problem is MM, with his TP or intangibility. SS could still disperse his molecules enough to KO MM if not kill him given J'onns control over his own body.

Without Flash, they go down hard.

#36 Edited by MonsterStomp (13143 posts) - - Show Bio

@wavemotioncannon: Sorry. I just don't see SS taking down J'onn as easy as you think/

#37 Edited by Ancient_0f_Days (10238 posts) - - Show Bio

With cosmic awareness, he could do massive amounts of damage before the JLA could react.

I'm pretty sure that just about EVERYONE on this JLA roster can react on the same level as Norrin, besides Aquaman (which can change since Hal can give speed).

Power drain GLs ring or Supes solar energy, Aquaman's water hand would be all that's left of him.

You act like he can do all this to people who are attacking him all at the same time....which is ludicrous. You are forgetting Wonder Woman who doesn't draw her power from energy sources and is possibly the fastest fighter here as well as one of the strongest. Unless Superman and Green Lantern just sit there and do nothing Surfer has almost no way of draining them especially as easily and as quickly as you suggest like its a piece of cake like it can happen in a second...Aquaman would be combating Surfer on the astral plane along side Martian Manhunter, he could also provide healing to injured teammates, chances are he'd be protected by Hal who can hold someone in a bubble construct and attack (or even use Aquaman as a weapon inside the bubble but I doubt it). That part of your post was formed out of pure bias.

The only one I see giving him a problem or living long enough to be a problem is MM, with his TP or intangibility. SS could still disperse his molecules enough to KO MM if not kill him given J'onns control over his own body.

The only way Surfer would be able to do that is if Martian Manhunter wasn't fighting back at all or using any of his other powers while he was being dispersed ... If he is fighting Surfer mentally and physically how is Surfer gonna have room to disperse him? unless it happens in an instant (from what I've seen it does not) and unless he is the only one standing, it will not work as easily as you suggest like he can "just" disperse him. You give the JLA absolutely no credit besides J'onn and that's a shame.

People are speaking on SS like he's NOT bloodlusted, bloodlusted SS would ANNIHILATE (no pun intended) the JLA.

Without Flash, they go down hard.

you make it seem like Surfer cannot be physically harmed...everyone here is strong enough to do so (even aquaman due to waterhand) and everyone is fast enough to avoid Surfer (even Aquaman if he is protected by or amped by Hal)... he is fighting a physical battle, a mental battle, and an energy based battle against six other people who excel in those areas....but he "ANNIHILATE"s them anyway? Prove it. Cus I got scans for you

#38 Edited by GhostRider2 (2990 posts) - - Show Bio

Silver Surfer kills them, black hole, matter manipulation, doesn't look good, Superman would end up drained if he fist fight with Surfer, WW also dies fast.Surfer fights from distance, he doesn't fist fight like Superman, people should stop ignoring Surfer's powers

#39 Posted by WaveMotionCannon (4669 posts) - - Show Bio

@wavemotioncannon said:

With cosmic awareness, he could do massive amounts of damage before the JLA could react.

I'm pretty sure that just about EVERYONE on this JLA roster can react on the same level as Norrin, besides Aquaman (which can change since Hal can give speed).

@wavemotioncannon said:

Power drain GLs ring or Supes solar energy, Aquaman's water hand would be all that's left of him.

You act like he can do all this to people who are attacking him all at the same time....which is ludicrous. You are forgetting Wonder Woman who doesn't draw her power from energy sources and is possibly the fastest fighter here as well as one of the strongest. Unless Superman and Green Lantern just sit there and do nothing Surfer has almost no way of draining them especially as easily and as quickly as you suggest like its a piece of cake like it can happen in a second...Aquaman would be combating Surfer on the astral plane along side Martian Manhunter, he could also provide healing to injured teammates, chances are he'd be protected by Hal who can hold someone in a bubble construct and attack (or even use Aquaman as a weapon inside the bubble but I doubt it). That part of your post was formed out of pure bias.

@wavemotioncannon said:

The only one I see giving him a problem or living long enough to be a problem is MM, with his TP or intangibility. SS could still disperse his molecules enough to KO MM if not kill him given J'onns control over his own body.

The only way Surfer would be able to do that is if Martian Manhunter wasn't fighting back at all or using any of his other powers while he was being dispersed ... If he is fighting Surfer mentally and physically how is Surfer gonna have room to disperse him? unless it happens in an instant (from what I've seen it does not) and unless he is the only one standing, it will not work as easily as you suggest like he can "just" disperse him. You give the JLA absolutely no credit besides J'onn and that's a shame.

@wavemotioncannon said:

People are speaking on SS like he's NOT bloodlusted, bloodlusted SS would ANNIHILATE (no pun intended) the JLA.

Without Flash, they go down hard.

you make it seem like Surfer cannot be physically harmed...everyone here is strong enough to do so (even aquaman due to waterhand) and everyone is fast enough to avoid Surfer (even Aquaman if he is protected by or amped by Hal)... he is fighting a physical battle, a mental battle, and an energy based battle against six other people who excel in those areas....but he "ANNIHILATE"s them anyway? Prove it. Cus I got scans for you

You're acting as if SS would give them time to plan anything, Aquaman would be a briquette before GL even thought of sheilding or amping him, SS speed is way out of GL reaction range. WW has no ranged attacks that would be able to touch Norrin and he'd blast her way before she got in range to touch him. The only ones that could do damage to Surfer would be Supes and MM, Cosmic awareness and TP resistance would keep him in the fight long enough to either create Kryptonite for Supes or drain him. MM would be the biggest threat and I dont see what he could do to harm SS, maybe attempt mind rape or they battle on the astral plane or Surfer attempts to BFR J'onn. I'm not biased I just don't see them beating Surfer.

#40 Posted by Lone_Wolf_and_Cub (4039 posts) - - Show Bio

A bloodlusted SS would destroy the JLA. He has way too many powers to deal with. Matter manipulation, energy absorption/manipulation, cosmic awareness, strength augmentation, time travel, FTL speed, astral plane and many more.

#41 Posted by HigorM (3238 posts) - - Show Bio

I summon @killemall the Killer to kill the doubts of this thread!

#42 Edited by Killemall (16959 posts) - - Show Bio

@higorm: Dont know what to say people are way over-estimating Silver Surfer, pre new 52 Silver Surfer vs Martian Manhunter, by itself is a pretty close fight, which can go either way. Whole JLA vs Sufer should be very one sided.

People see the Silver Surfer as this strong? O.o

I was thinking the same :)

#43 Posted by MisterWhisper (1664 posts) - - Show Bio

@killemall: Under normal conditions no, but Bloodlusted SS is completely different.

#44 Posted by nerdork (3481 posts) - - Show Bio

@nerdork said:

@willpayton: First off, when I say that the JLA loses, I do so with a heavy heart. I actually think I lost a little of my life force by posting it. But, the problem with a bloodlusted SS is that Aquaman won’t have any time to use his telepathy. SS will be able to gauge their powers, and speedblitz them from the start of the fight. By the time that Supes and WW realize they need to speed up, the other members have been neutralized. I know that sounds very one sided, but SS can and will speedblitz the hell out of them. MMH, if he stays intangible will be an intangible issue, but SS can always transmute, with basically nanosecond reaction time. And, Flash would be needed here for the victory, IMO anyways, as he is the only one who can slow SS when bloodlusted. Even if SS is slowed to the speed of smell, he can still drain almost all of their powers, the raw power cosmic and his ability to absorb nearly any form energy. A bloodlusted SS could be argued as being Sky-Father worthy…not completely, but close.

All my opinion BTW.

All valid enough... except I've never seen evidence that SS has faster combat speed/reaction time than people like Superman or Wonder Woman.

I'm also not sure how much TP resistance he has. Can he stand up to a combined TP attack from MMH and Aquaman? Also, what does he do against magical attacks? WW has her magical equipment and Arthur has the water hand.

I had to do a little research to be able to deflect the argument you gave me. LOL.

SS can and often does travel FTL, he can also enter hyperspace, making him all but invisible to the naked eye for those who cant keep up. I cannot find any examples of SS resisting TP, but he is said to have demonstrated a limited TP ability (though, nothing to MMH’s scale, I would assume). He can also sense energy signatures from light-years away, can phase through solid matter or energy and become intangible. Visually, he sees matter (both organic and inorganic) and all forms of energy (Kinetic, Potential, Electric, etc.) at a subatomic level (giving him the ability to instantly alter or absorb them). This is just a summary of his abilities (there are a bunch more that were irrelevant for the thread) that he performs in character. Bloodlusted though…

SS’s victory here will be his strategy in which JLA member he attacks first. Since he can sense energy signatures visualize matter and energy at its subatomic levels (from extreme distances), it would be no chore at all for him to realize the threat levels in front of him. He would know right away who he can (and should) take out quickly.

Bloodlusted, he immediately goes FTL and takes out those who cannot stand to a full blast of the power cosmic. Even though WW , MMH and Supes can travel at those speeds too, they wouldn’t have their senses turned up, in time, to stop SS from taking out others. From there, it will only be a matter (a long time) of time before SS wins.

Sorry for not havign scans. I can provide some, but not untl this weekend.

#45 Posted by dondave (26665 posts) - - Show Bio

JLA

#46 Posted by Ancient_0f_Days (10238 posts) - - Show Bio
#47 Posted by Killemall (16959 posts) - - Show Bio

@killemall: Under normal conditions no, but Bloodlusted SS is completely different.

Well under normal condition Silver Sufer constantly struggles with Thor, so i am accounting for him being bloodlusted and i still think he would struggle.

Why? One combat speed, he has any sort of advantage in terms of combat speed against JLA.

Now he has versatility, but he is vulnerable to telepathy, also brute force.

One on one Surfer can make short work of everyone here, together there is a bit more going on.

#48 Edited by Esquire (3742 posts) - - Show Bio

@nerdork: In modern continuity, Surfer enters hyperspace when he goes FTL. That literally means he exits the dimension and enters a separate one, hyperspace. So if he tries a FTL blitz, he won't be able to tag anyone. He's just going to BFR himself.

#49 Edited by nerdork (3481 posts) - - Show Bio

@esquire said:

@nerdork: In modern continuity, Surfer enters hyperspace when he goes FTL. That literally means he exits the dimension and enters a separate one, hyperspace. So if he tries a FTL blitz, he won't be able to tag anyone. He's just going to BFR himself.

Ah, i see. Well then, dangit, I've got nothing. My opninion stands, but my argument fell over and died.

#50 Edited by MisterWhisper (1664 posts) - - Show Bio

@esquire:

That is travel speed, he does not have to travel anywhere to just matter transmute everyone into a rock.

He has crazy good reaction speeds, I will admit not as fast as Wonder Woman or Superman. However they do not start out going for the kill at hyperspeed.

If both sides were bloodlusted SS would die. With them with morals on and him bloodlusted it gives him a huge advantage.