This JLA team suddenly finds themselves in the Marvel universe. Some unknown force has altered their minds so that they are convinced everyone they find in this new universe is evil and must be stopped at any cost.
The team goes down to Earth and find all these Marvel teams gathered there. After an exchange of words it's clear to both sides that a battle is about to begin. The JLA team is bloodlusted and willing to do anything to win. Everyone else is in character.
Most of the X-Men, Avengers and all the F4 can be BFR'ed by either Maxima or Wally. I don't see anyone here having an answer to a blood-lusted Wally, whether it be speed steal or more exotic means of incapacitation. Martian Manhunter is everyone's superior in the telepathic department and while blood-lusted, I see telepathy coming into play. Captain Atom, Dr. Fate, and Supes can take out remaining threats exuding the Annihilators due to their ridiculous versatility. The Annihilators put up a good fight but fall to MMH's superior TP or Wally's Speed Steal.
Overall, it's too many factors to come to a definitive conclusion while avoiding errors but I'm leaning JLA with MMH and Wally as MVPs
@unbreakable_fs4: Speed steal being something you have to be *signficantly* faster than your opponent to use for any kind of permanent effect, is not really an option for Wally by the time Surfer has blown him to smithereens
@unbreakable_fs4: Speed steal being something you have to be *signficantly* faster than your opponent to use for any kind of permanent effect, is not really any option for Wally by the time Surfer has blown him to smithereens
I disagree. Speed Steal does not require one to be significantly faster than their opponent for it to work. Jay has speed stolen Supes and they are comparable in speed.
Annihilators can solo it. I mean Kallark with enough confidence can take 2-3 JLA members.. Then you have SS who is just too much power.... Ronan can probably create a force field for all Annihilator members..
Unfortunately if you had actually read the issue, you would have noted that this barely slowed Supes down at all
Jay opened up a slight advantage, which Supes was already closing to like half before they got time dumped
He didn't even stop running
You speak as though Jay stole his kinetic energy with intention of stopping him in his tracks. He stated himself he did it to slow down Clark and give himself a boost. Your point does not mean much especially considering the huge disparity in capability between Jay and Wally.
Cause Wally choses not to render everyone a statue, does not mean he can't, as he showed with Inertia.
With surfer all he needs to do his flick his wrist and release planet busting energies. Wally ain't surviving that
And why exactly would Surfer do this?
Is it in character for Norrin to do as you just said? His naivety will be his downfall
J'onn alone can take out half that team on TP alone(And Maxima can help) while physically engaging them at the same time so anyone who can't take a punch from J'onn dies or gets KO'd while Wally lends speed to his team to make them even faster while not slowing down one bit and robbing the kinetic energy of the enemy team.JLA ftw
@unbreakable_fs4: What...seriously? You are claiming Jay didn't give it his best shot here? He outright stated " say GOODBYE to your speed " . He tried his best to avoid putting superman in trouble
It simply didn't work except momentarily because of the sheer amount of speed involved , even with his sneak attack. Just like Wally struggled to steal the kinetic energy of the planet because of the sheer amount involved
Just like wally stealing speed from Amazo on a day Wally was still at least a hundred times faster didn't last till the next page
There are plenty of non violent ways for Norrin to resolve this without having to resort to planet busting . Trapping him in his board , or really ...just hitting/ blasting him hard enough to KO him like he does usually against enemies, would do just fine here
J'onn alone can take out half that team on TP alone(And Maxima can help) while physically engaging them at the same time so anyone who can't take a punch from J'onn dies or gets KO'd while Wally lends speed to his team to make them even faster while not slowing down one bit and robbing the kinetic energy of the enemy team.JLA ftw
What...seriously? You are claiming Jay didn't give it his best shot here? He outright stated " say GOODBYE to your speed " . He tried his best to avoid putting superman in trouble
It simply didn't work except momentarily because of the sheer amount of speed involved , even with his sneak attack. Just like Wally struggled to steal the kinetic energy of the planet because of the sheer amount involved
And then he goes on to state that it was to "slow" Clark down and give himself a "boost". Not to mention the blatant aspect you're ignoring where Jay expresses his inexperience using abilities such as Speed Steal, mentioning how Wally has been trying to teach it to him.
Wally didn't struggle because of the amount as you say, he struggled because of the size of what he was speed stealing, even going on to reassure himself by stating it's like stealing speed from a bullet only bigger.
Just like wally stealing speed from Amazo on a day Wally was still at least a hundred times faster didn't last till the next page
I notice how you conveniently leave out the fact Wally fell unconscious seconds after stealing Amazo's speed. That however won't be happening in this battle.
There are plenty of non violent ways for Norrin to resolve this without having to resort to planet busting . Trapping him in his board , or really ...just hitting/ blasting him hard enough to KO him like he does usually against enemies, would do just fine here
Time and time again Surfer has allowed his pacifist nature to cloud his judgment and let people that have no business fighting him, get good shots in. Considering Flash has displayed combat speed greater than anything Surfer has ever displayed, what exactly is he going to do? Hell, how will he avoid being TP'ed by MMH considering Surfer is in character and has been TP'ed before by lesser telepaths?
@homicidalmaniac: I interpret it as being base version since he states "standard/classic versions". Anyways, we'll need a clarification from @willpayton before coming to a conclusion.
Let's see you have Quasar, Beta Ray Bill, Gladiator, Silver Surfer, Thor, Hulk, Hope, Jean (Phoenix) Grey and maybe Professor X and Magik with Longshot's random luck powers.
Marvel team takes it with a whole bunch of casualties.
This would be more interesting if Marvel had some prep....a Reed, Tony, Beast, Hulk and Forge combo would be killer.
@unbreakable_fs4: 1. So you are basically saying Wally would struggle to steal speed from Al Rothstein ...more than he would against Superman amirite?
Or you know. He also explicitly talks about kinetic energy being stolen, which has nothing whatsoever to do with the size of the planet as much as you know....the energy involved
Jay tried his best to slow Clark down indeed. He tried his best to boost his own speed. He didn't particularly succeed in either endeavour
Heh , now you cite his inexperience with the same
Is that all, or do you have more excuses? Might as well get them all out of the way right now
2. So...? What difference does that make to his speed stealing abilities ? He took a beating , that's why he dropped unconscious. He tried to " take away" his superspeed
He didn't succeed. To the extent of Amazo going about chilling just fine ...right in the next page. To the extent of Diana noting he is still as fast as superman later in the fight ( next issue)
So based on this...what particularly allows Wally to steal Surfers speed?
3. So basically you want to go " hey man surfer has low showings, let's just look at them"
Cool. So this means Wally has no superspeed whatsoever given the number of times he is tagged by people like Batman and Deathstroke or heck his monthly involving Rogue of the Day to tag him at least once per issue, it's a given that dude is going to be tagged
Given his almost utter lack of speed steal feats against actually FTL people, this would mean he has pretty much zero feats to indicate he would even use the move, much less it being successful
Or you know? Super powerful characters nerfed by plot....are just that? Super powerful characters nerfed by plot?
Just like Wally has done it *enough* times , Surfer has more than enough speed feats to indicate that him getting hit by slower people or jobbing out to the same is PIS
Saying Wally is *faster* than surfer by any notable degree means for some reason you feel , a dude fast enough to fight through time itself is faster ......than a dude fast enough to fight through time itself?
The surfer's TP resistance feats involve tanking an assault from Moondragon amped by the mind gem and spreading " peace and calm" over the entire planet shenanigans .
Even setting aside the fact that he is so much faster than the Manhunter as for Jonn to be a statue to him, he isn't particularly getting TPd based on his high end feats
Certainly if your argument boils down to " well his low end feats too", Jonn has similarly low end TP feats, while Wally has been tagged by waaay slower people / has rarely if ever used speed steal vs FTL people
Or you know, fighting to the best of their abilities ? Surfer solos
@homicidalmaniac: I interpret it as being base version since he states "standard/classic versions". Anyways, we'll need a clarification from @willpayton before coming to a conclusion.
You are correct. Standard/classic means their normal standard non-amped (etc, etc) versions. I think everyone realizes that if we use things like Phoenix Force then that unbalances the battle and it's clearly not what's intended. The point here is not to try to find a loophole, just to see who wins with the intended characters.
This is really just a fight between the DC team vs the exceptionally few people that will still be standing after the DC team blitzes everyone on team marvel with both physical attacks and mental assaults.
The numbers is against the JLA but the problem is blood lust. More than 95% of the marvel teams dies before they can think. The Flash could go around and rip all their brains out.
One question for @willpayton: Does the Marvel side only have the members in the pics or are they the full teams. Are other Avengers or X-Men not in the pics here? For example Scarlet Witch, Quicksilver, Vision, Hank Pym, Sentry, Red Hulk, Hercules, Wonderman, etc.
J'onn alone can take out half that team on TP alone(And Maxima can help) while physically engaging them at the same time so anyone who can't take a punch from J'onn dies or gets KO'd while Wally lends speed to his team to make them even faster while not slowing down one bit and robbing the kinetic energy of the enemy team.JLA ftw
Professor X, Jean Grey, Hope, Psyloche, White Queen.. TP countered.
@homicidalmaniac: I interpret it as being base version since he states "standard/classic versions". Anyways, we'll need a clarification from @willpayton before coming to a conclusion.
You are correct. Standard/classic means their normal standard non-amped (etc, etc) versions. I think everyone realizes that if we use things like Phoenix Force then that unbalances the battle and it's clearly not what's intended. The point here is not to try to find a loophole, just to see who wins with the intended characters.
I don't think the Phoenix Force makes Marvel stomp. If Superman and the gang bang fight beings at Monitor Level they should be able to handle a regular Phoenix form Jean Grey who is in the pic you provided.
I'm slightly leaning for Marvel with heavy casualties after the first round. If Reed, Iron Man and Prof X survive the initial JLA Blitz then Marvel wins. If not DC wins a drawn out battle with casualties on each side. Personally I think Marvel wins by shear luck. Longshot is in the pic provided ;)
One question for @willpayton: Does the Marvel side only have the members in the pics or are they the full teams. Are other Avengers or X-Men not in the pics here? For example Scarlet Witch, Quicksilver, Vision, Hank Pym, Sentry, Red Hulk, Hercules, Wonderman, etc.
Saying Wally is *faster* than surfer by any notable degree means for some reason you feel , a dude fast enough to fight through time itself is faster ......than a dude fast enough to fight through time itself?
And then also:
Even setting aside the fact that he is so much faster than the Manhunter as for Jonn to be a statue to him, he isn't particularly getting TPd based on his high end feats
Certainly if your argument boils down to " well his low end feats too", Jonn has similarly low end TP feats, while Wally has been tagged by waaay slower people / has rarely if ever used speed steal vs FTL people
Or you know, fighting to the best of their abilities ? Surfer solos
Indeed, Surfer has numerous FTL reaction feats that go routinely ignored around here:
The fourth scan from the left makes it clear: he has outraced the signals.
Hello???
While these are impressive...there are others....it's the Surfer's ability to casually move through the fourth dimension under his own speed. Incidentally, Wally West moves through the 4th dimension in the same fashion....like the Surfer, he exceeds light speed, then enters the time stream. It is the pinnacle for either character's speed.
Below, the Surfer travels to a "world of limitless dimensions", the Crossroads to Infinity. If you are long time FF fan, you already understand what that means. If not, for the newbs, it's a time travel feat.
I've seen this scan posted around here....but most simply focus in the scan to the right where the Surfer is mentioned as moving at multiple speeds of light. What almost everyone here misses is that he and Reed are both already moving through the time stream:
For people around here that don't believe time travel is superior to just reacting at FTL speeds, notice the conversation between Jesse Quick and Max Mercury. It occurs between atto seconds before they go to their respective destinations in time. Jay Garrick was also among those traveling time in the Chain Lightning arc....and he, by his own admission, is slower than light. Matthew Tyler, during his "hour of power", can move between the points between pico seconds:
One of Wally West's greatest speed feats was beating instantaneous teleportation of the Cosmic Gamblers in the Human Race. How did he beat them? By traveling back in time, just prior to the instant the Gamblers showed up on earth. Notice the narration: he clearly says he's in the 4th dimension. That's time. And if you notice the very last panel, bottom right....Wally is vibrating. If you are a long time Flash fan, then you already know that maintaining a certain vibrational frequency is what allows Wally (and the others) to remain in the time stream:
And in case anyone is wondering, aside from Barry, at this point in time, only Wally was capable of making the jump to the 4th dimension with his own speed. The rest needed the cosmic treadmill:
The semantics for entering the time stream with SPEED is as follows:
1) You have to be able to move faster than light
2) Once past the light speed barrier, you must then make a conscious decision to enter the 4th dimension (not all characters that are FTL are capable of entering the time stream on speed. Only the elite few are capable of this.
3) For Wally and the Surfer, both must move forward.....really, REALLY fast (faster than light) then enter the time stream. The Surfer has literally stopped time with his speed. Wally has zipped around in a circle in a pico second.
Essentially, both characters are equal in speed.
Final thought: if time travel was not superior than just FTL reaction speed, why did Geoff Johns make Hunter Zolomon's powers time based? Here's another question: how many pico second or atto second reaction feats does Hunter Zolomon have?
Answer? Anyone??
NONE. Yet not soul here has a problem saying Zolomon is faster than Wally West.
In terms of Martian Manhunter, he is by his own admission, slower than Superman, who himself does not have any FTL reaction feats. Unless someone wants to show me scans of J'onny moving through the time stream under his own speed?
@maiamaku: Inertia having entirely lost his speed at the time Wally pulled off that famous sequence? Absolutely . The differnece in speed is closer to Batman and Wallys
Dr Fate was stopped by all of sealing his mouth shut on Thanagar, other instances involve simply removing the helmet to depower him
The " shutting his mouth " bit at least is a piece of cake for any of the matter manupulatiors here
@thegrayghost: I thought Wally stole his speed, and that's why he lost it.
That whole deal on Thanagar was EXTREME PIS; Fate doesn't need to speak to use his magic. Also, who managed to remove his helmet? I've seen plenty of scans of people trying, but never any of them succeeding.
Furthermore, the OP states that the league is bloodlusted. I would assume that would mean that Nabu is in charge
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