Blade + Wolverine vs. Deathstroke + Nightwing

@demonyusuke713 said:

@cable_extreme these show blad taking on two bodyguard/assains for bp moving faster then them easily with out much roblem beating a vamparic spider-man and defeating a squad of doombots with out sweat

So you're saying Deathstroke couldn't do this?.....

lol thats why i told @wolverine08 to leve him in his own little world

@demonyusuke713: Cool scan! Got anymore or know any other notable character he's taken on physically? Spiderman and a DoomBot aren't bad.

@cable_extreme said:

@demonyusuke713 said:

@cable_extreme these show blad taking on two bodyguard/assains for bp moving faster then them easily with out much roblem beating a vamparic spider-man and defeating a squad of doombots with out sweat

So you're saying Deathstroke couldn't do this?.....

he can probably deal with bps body guards (its hard as dicks trying to find feats on the interwebs ) so this was the first speed feat i found there are others with him being much faster but hard to find as for taking out a squad of oombots slade will need prep and know who doom is to do that he cant go in there half ccked he will get destroyed remember doom is the only person to mix science with magic taking out a doom bot is harder then it sounds and a vampric spidey realize spidey strength is already at least 25 tons being a vampire amps that along with speed meaning that blade only advantage was experience i seriously doubt slade can take on a vampire empowered spidey

@JayAaerow: Blade explains to Spitfire how vampiric healing factors work: Spitfire thinks she is dying Blade tells her to decide the injuries aren't there anymore. He says it will be the worst pain ever, but when she heals, you clearly see her back repairing.itself.

@demonyusuke713:

I see.

However, a couple things I wanna note:

-Yep, beating a Doombot is no canon fodder. It's impressive how he got the drop easily.

-That speed feat is nice, but Nightwing could do the same. What's BP stand for? Black Panther? Unless the Body guards have reflexes beyond human, even Nightwing can seemingly move that fast. He's moved fast enough to disappear like Batman TO Batman and even Superman before they knew it. He even disappeared from Jesse Quick. I will say Blade is very likely to be faster then Nightwing but I don't see it being a huge advantage, as his skills in reflexes already has him dodge and block attacks he shouldn't see. But it helps Blade's case.

-Beating a Vampire Spider-Man isn't a bad feat. I don't know how strong a Vamp Spidey is though. Im going to assume just the same, as Blade seem to handle it quite fine. His stats were comparable to Spidey as I've seen in my research(Its hard finding feats for him XD). If it really amped his strength from 25 tons to higher, he should be getting owned.

-Deathstroke has taken out teams of people stronger then him multiple times. Im sure he'd handle a Vampire Spider-Man just fine. He's no slouch at all. He gives the JL troubles, dont forget. Just because Blade done that doesn't mean Slade can't. That's somewhat using ABC Logic(If character A can beat B, then character A can beat C).

@blackwind: Vampric Healing Factor....got it! Thanks!

yes but vampire spidey still has spidey sense etc. and well its not established that his strength is increased but in the beginning spidey was in the lead this was the deciding factor blade only won cuz he is way moe experinced with the powers of a vampire im saying slade needs prep when he fought the jla that was prep and pis

@demonyusuke713:

1) Very True. However, this shows power doesn't beat everything. Slade is rather old himself and experienced. And while he still had Spider Sense, It doesn't mean he's untaggabble. Spidey sense is only helpful to a certain point. It warns him and all, but it's up to peter to decide how to react and where. He's not omnipotent with it. That's why he still gets tagged by people like Punisher(Though that's questionable because he has no problem dodging bullets from others but no one is invincible and has dealt with him before). Spider Senses warns him, not does all the dodging for him. Reflexes does the dodging. I wouldn't be surprised if Slade had the same capability.

2) He's fought the Teen Titans and JL without the big 3 without prep to my knowledge before(I could be wrong). I'm not using PIS because him doing so is showing his tactical side of maneuvering around them. Even so, he's not invincible and has been captured by a JL group consisting of Black Canary, Green Arrow, Hawkman, Flash, Green Lanter, and Zatanna and only got away due to Dr. Light's intervention. Lets not say PIS just because it seems unbelievable. It's not a longshot since he's aware of each of the memebers and has met them at some point and studied them at least in a way like Batman.

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@jayaaerow: I'm just saying the way the vampire disease works is a amp of strength and speed alot of fights slade was in where he is fighting a up hill battle like lobo superman etc. is due to pis and prep not random encounters I am willing to admit after dealing with said team or each team member individually at one time before will put im at a advantage prep or not like how batan can deal with bane freeze poison ivy at anytime simply cuz he dealt with them before and know their weakness prepped or not same goes with slade im saying slade vs blade is indeed a uphill battle he is fighting some one he knows nothing about some one who is physically stronger and faster i say around the same skill mayb slight edge to slade but if these two fought using logic and stats bout each blade wins hands down so blade teamed with wolverine is a massacre (seeing we are talking bout hf logan) who can hold his own against both already or can be blades food source and he can chill and let blade handle it im not saying slade isnt skilled or wouldnt put up a fight but team 2 is outmatched in more ways then one cable doesnt see it cuz he's a fanboy plus blade isnt a slouch in intelligence neither so whereas slade got him in intelligence slightly or maybe a outmatch blade has him in physical powers combine blades experinced mind even the great deathstroke will fall

ps. it was a squad of doombots i think 5 of em

I'm not being rude. It's not "rude" when it's pointing out the truth;

http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles-7/ultimate-green-goblin-vs-wolverine-1495376/?messageId=10350102&page=10#js-message-470

Same style. Same arguments. But yeah ... his little brother hijacked his computer. Sure. OK.

Why underestimate the intelligence of everyone with obvious, and highly transparent, bull crap (highly rhetorical). Now, I'm supposed to pretend it doesn't smell when it does and take this guy seriously? That's not being polite. That's actually a disservice ... letting folks believe they're so effortlessly pulling one over on people only encourages and teaches nothing but more of the same type behavior.

Lying should never be easier than admitting you were wrong in a few of your assumptions / arguments or easier than acquiescing.

And it's one sided because Blade is being hugely underestimated here. Blade is far too much for Nightwing to handle, and enough to keep Deathstroke occupied until Wolverine runs through Nightwing should dance partners be reversed.

Wolverine without his healing factor is the only way team 2 have a chance at taking this. And even then, it's a debatable topic. But let's not pretend a fully functional, 100% Wolverine coupled with Blade, together, could not absolutely run through Deathstroke - because that's what this match-up will turn into as Nightwing simply will not last against either or.

@super_soldierxii

:

It's not one-sided. Both of these characters have held their own/beaten characters they shouldn't be hanging with. It's not that one-sided. This is a 100% fully functional Blade and Wolverine vs Deathstroke and Nightwing. It's not just team 1. They have certain advantages not to be overlooked just because these guys outclass them in certain areas.

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I still give it to Team 1. Team 2 is not as strong. Both characters in Team 1 are Superhuman. That's not to say Team 1 is unbeatable.

Though from Standard Equipment, Nightwing doesn't have much to deliver in the lethal department while Deathstroke has. I'm not sure what's standard for him but he has it. And so does Blade. Wolverine doesn't either. However, Nightwing does have various gadgetry that can do something. Nowadays, he has bombs, smoke screens, sonic devices, tasers, and Escrima stick with electrical options. Blade and Deathstroke carry with them a blade and standard military-grade weapons. Team 2 has a slight weapons advantage cause Wolverine doesn't have one.

EDIT:Also forgot to mention the durability of their weapons. Team 1 just has those weapons that can absolutely cut through their armor at least. Nightwing im sure but DS...maybe.....he has durable Nth Metal on him nowadays.

What I considered the most to be a factor of why Team 1 wins is durability and this is why Team 1 wins this in my opinion. These character can take whatever Nightwing and Deathstroke have and have a healing factor that can prolong the battle. While this doesn't make them invincible or makes as if nothing happens, it's a factor you cannot ignore. Nightiwng and Deathstroke can bleed out while these character can heal rather quickly. Whatever they dish out, they can take it. Not to say they'll take everything, as some well placed hits can KO them, but I don't think they will due to their reflexes, power,and skill.

I also considered a couple of things: Pure skill. Meaning what kind of character have they taken out with minimal usage of powers? Training? Team 2 takes it. Wolverine might be great but Blade is a character who seems to be reliant on his powers to fight many of his battles and while he's good, he's not outstanding like Wolverine, Nightwing or Deathstroke from my research(Like someone pointed out earlier, These 3 have taken on notable characters). Wolverine is still skilled, take out the healing factor and while he's enhanced still due to being a mutant, he still has shown skill without the use of claws or a healing factor that's impressive. While the enhancements take him far, Deathstroke without his is still skilled. And Nightwing is completely human and vastly skilled.

And last: Intellect. This can make a difference. Though here, I can't see it being a major advantage. While Team 2 is heck of a lot smarter, these guys aren't idiots and prone to fall for tricks easily and have skills to see/evade in a random encounter. And because there's no prep, I don't think this is a problem IMO.

Team 1 are able to take whatever Team 2 dishes out. Their usual advantages doesn't apply, as they're fighting completely different characters they don't see everyday. And while I say they will give them a hella of a fight, as they themselves held their own with characters that should own them sometimes, Im going to say eventually they lose. Not many of their standard arsenal can take them down or do major damage they can't heal from. The only thing I think the gadgetry that can affect them is gas and It might not be much. If they wanted to take these guys down, they need some prep time to gather info on their opponents and get the right equipment for taking them down.

Team 1 takes, but it's not one-sided when you consider what they do.

Nightwing is Batman's most skilled Protege, World's Greatest Human Acrobat, and possibly runner-up for the World's Greatest Detective according to DC. He may not be at Batman's level, but he's close. Closer then writer grant to tell sometimes. He's one of the World Tier Martial Artist and has made a career out of beating metahumans. No slouch at all despite being the technical weak-link here.

Wolverine is uber-skilled. His regeneration and adamantium claws take him far but his combat skills enable him to take on foes like Sabertooth, DareDevil, Omega Red, Deadpool, Captain America, etc. He's not invincible or invulnerable but is still highly skilled for a mutant.

Blade is no slouch either. I tried hard to not underestimate him. He might not be taking on notable characters or no named vampires but he fights off many supernatural occurences and is not someone to be taken lightly and is comparable to the likes of Spider-man in terms of stats if anything. And is no normal swordman

Deathstroke is a World-Tier Assassin and one of the best in the world, only a handful of characters like Cheshire, Deadshot, and Cheshire exceed him, whether it be in marksmanship or overall Martial Arts that contribute to getting their job done. He's not called the Terminator for nothing.

My little brother didn't hack my computer, I left myself logged on..... Just grow up....

Whether you choose to believe it or not, bringing it up in other forums is off topic.

Deathstroke and Nightwing are easily a good enough group to defeat Wolverine, you are fatally underestimating Nightwings ability, he has useful equipment that he can fight Wolverine for a while. And don't forget Deathstroke's ranged ability, he has a blasting staff that he can use to help Nightwing ect... You have just stated n opinion, I have stated one as well.

@demonyusuke713 said:

@cable_extreme said:

@demonyusuke713 said:

@cable_extreme these show blad taking on two bodyguard/assains for bp moving faster then them easily with out much roblem beating a vamparic spider-man and defeating a squad of doombots with out sweat

So you're saying Deathstroke couldn't do this?.....

he can probably deal with bps body guards (its hard as dicks trying to find feats on the interwebs ) so this was the first speed feat i found there are others with him being much faster but hard to find as for taking out a squad of oombots slade will need prep and know who doom is to do that he cant go in there half ccked he will get destroyed remember doom is the only person to mix science with magic taking out a doom bot is harder then it sounds and a vampric spidey realize spidey strength is already at least 25 tons being a vampire amps that along with speed meaning that blade only advantage was experience i seriously doubt slade can take on a vampire empowered spidey

Vampire empowered Spiderman, how are his feats? Does it show him to be strong/ skilled/ fast? And Spiderman's consistent showing of Strength is around 10 tons. Since he has been overpowered by Lizard's 11 tons strength and green Goblins 9 ton strength.

@cable_extreme said:

@demonyusuke713 said:

@cable_extreme said:

@demonyusuke713 said:

@cable_extreme these show blad taking on two bodyguard/assains for bp moving faster then them easily with out much roblem beating a vamparic spider-man and defeating a squad of doombots with out sweat

So you're saying Deathstroke couldn't do this?.....

he can probably deal with bps body guards (its hard as dicks trying to find feats on the interwebs ) so this was the first speed feat i found there are others with him being much faster but hard to find as for taking out a squad of oombots slade will need prep and know who doom is to do that he cant go in there half ccked he will get destroyed remember doom is the only person to mix science with magic taking out a doom bot is harder then it sounds and a vampric spidey realize spidey strength is already at least 25 tons being a vampire amps that along with speed meaning that blade only advantage was experience i seriously doubt slade can take on a vampire empowered spidey

Vampire empowered Spiderman, how are his feats? Does it show him to be strong/ skilled/ fast? And Spiderman's consistent showing of Strength is around 10 tons. Since he has been overpowered by Lizard's 11 tons strength and green Goblins 9 ton strength.

omh im done with you the vamparic virus automatically enhances ones physical powers to superhuman abilities meaning if your human at first then ets changed you are now a superhuman strength speed etc. so if some one who is already superhuman gets the virus thir strength and speed will mostly increase tenfold im sure the writers thought there is no need to explain this or show feats cuz it plain as freaking day what it will do and spiderman has also shown to be 25 tons

either way im done with you feats arent everything sometimes a good hard look at logic and the way a certain thing works is enough so to end my debate ill say this slade vs spidey a normal spidey spidey wins why cuz siderman is faster stronger reaction time is debateable but with his spider sense its pretty hard to tag him so if slade cant beat a regular spiderman random encounter what makes you think he can take on a spiderman thats blood lusted with the power of vampires along with his already enhanced spiderpower in a random encounter

@demonyusuke713 said:

@cable_extreme said:

@demonyusuke713 said:

@cable_extreme said:

@demonyusuke713 said:

@cable_extreme these show blad taking on two bodyguard/assains for bp moving faster then them easily with out much roblem beating a vamparic spider-man and defeating a squad of doombots with out sweat

So you're saying Deathstroke couldn't do this?.....

he can probably deal with bps body guards (its hard as dicks trying to find feats on the interwebs ) so this was the first speed feat i found there are others with him being much faster but hard to find as for taking out a squad of oombots slade will need prep and know who doom is to do that he cant go in there half ccked he will get destroyed remember doom is the only person to mix science with magic taking out a doom bot is harder then it sounds and a vampric spidey realize spidey strength is already at least 25 tons being a vampire amps that along with speed meaning that blade only advantage was experience i seriously doubt slade can take on a vampire empowered spidey

Vampire empowered Spiderman, how are his feats? Does it show him to be strong/ skilled/ fast? And Spiderman's consistent showing of Strength is around 10 tons. Since he has been overpowered by Lizard's 11 tons strength and green Goblins 9 ton strength.

omh im done with you the vamparic virus automatically enhances ones physical powers to superhuman abilities meaning if your human at first then ets changed you are now a superhuman strength speed etc. so if some one who is already superhuman gets the virus thir strength and speed will mostly increase tenfold im sure the writers thought there is no need to explain this or show feats cuz it plain as freaking day what it will do and spiderman has also shown to be 25 tons

either way im done with you feats arent everything sometimes a good hard look at logic and the way a certain thing works is enough so to end my debate ill say this slade vs spidey a normal spidey spidey wins why cuz siderman is faster stronger reaction time is debateable but with his spider sense its pretty hard to tag him so if slade cant beat a regular spiderman random encounter what makes you think he can take on a spiderman thats blood lusted with the power of vampires along with his already enhanced spiderpower in a random encounter

So i should just take your word for it?

@cable_extreme: its freaking logic what do you not understand if your human and get a boost of power what do u think would happen if your alread suphumanly strong and fast you'll get stronger and faster right its that simple not every power up that lasted in a issue need feats to tell the reader that this is now a really dangerous person

But how much did it enhance him? And what were his feats as vampiric Spiderman? That is all I have asked, I never said it is not the case..... Plus I don't know whether or not it adds on to someone's power if they are already enhanced. I am asking for clarification. That is all.

the virus increases ones strength and speed 10 fold i think the speed is more then 10 but eh i digress as for feats of vampiric spidey there isnt any feats cuz it was only one issue so as for would it further empower some one who is already superpowered no ones knows but it a safe bet that it does cuz spidey wasnt the first to get turned and wreck hulk was too and he was stronger

Do you have the issue that was in? I would love to read it. If not oh well. However, if it added on to Spider Man's already superior stats than Blade, I don't see how that is not wis.

i dnt have an issue and blade only won due to his superior knowledge of vampires and the fact perter still has the weaknesses of a regular vamp blade didnt win with just breute strength actually they fought a few times before the final fight i just showed you spiderman had blade on the retreat and some earlier panels spidey was tagging blade left and right

Ah I see. It is only fair now that I bring up cases with Deathstroke.

He fought the outsiders and made them look like amateurs.

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Next I will bring up scans showing his H2H ability by matching Cassandra cain, Ravager, and Nightwing with more people at the same time.

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I can bring up more, but a lot of the other one's involve prep.

As for speed feats, I'll post a few.

Here he is easily dodging Gunfire, and in the last scan he is dodging machine gun fire from multiple people at a close range.

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Here he is dodging Starfire's blast. Pay attention to what she says about Deathstroke's reaction speed.

He then dodges beast boy in Cheetah form and also dodges laser guns and then jumps through a high speed rotor.

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And last but not least, here he is tagging Kid Flash in the TT's that is known to travel mach speeds, which verifies Starfire's claim of his superior reflexes.

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My conclusion due to his show of superhuman speed and skill, I say he takes the majority of Blade.

@cable_extreme said:

@demonyusuke713 said:

@cable_extreme said:

@demonyusuke713 said:

@cable_extreme said:

@demonyusuke713 said:

@cable_extreme: its freaking logic what do you not understand if your human and get a boost of power what do u think would happen if your alread suphumanly strong and fast you'll get stronger and faster right its that simple not every power up that lasted in a issue need feats to tell the reader that this is now a really dangerous person

But how much did it enhance him? And what were his feats as vampiric Spiderman? That is all I have asked, I never said it is not the case..... Plus I don't know whether or not it adds on to someone's power if they are already enhanced. I am asking for clarification. That is all.

the virus increases ones strength and speed 10 fold i think the speed is more then 10 but eh i digress as for feats of vampiric spidey there isnt any feats cuz it was only one issue so as for would it further empower some one who is already superpowered no ones knows but it a safe bet that it does cuz spidey wasnt the first to get turned and wreck hulk was too and he was stronger

Do you have the issue that was in? I would love to read it. If not oh well. However, if it added on to Spider Man's already superior stats than Blade, I don't see how that is not wis.

i dnt have an issue and blade only won due to his superior knowledge of vampires and the fact perter still has the weaknesses of a regular vamp blade didnt win with just breute strength actually they fought a few times before the final fight i just showed you spiderman had blade on the retreat and some earlier panels spidey was tagging blade left and right

Ah I see. It is only fair now that I bring up cases with Deathstroke.

He fought the outsiders and made them look like amateurs.

Gallery

Next I will bring up scans showing his H2H ability by matching Cassandra cain, Ravager, and Nightwing with more people at the same time.

Gallery

I can bring up more, but a lot of the other one's involve prep.

As for speed feats, I'll post a few.

Here he is easily dodging Gunfire, and in the last scan he is dodging machine gun fire from multiple people at a close range.

Gallery

Here he is dodging Starfire's blast. Pay attention to what she says about Deathstroke's reaction speed.

He then dodges beast boy in Cheetah form and also dodges laser guns and then jumps through a high speed rotor.

Gallery

And last but not least, here he is tagging Kid Flash in the TT's that is known to travel mach speeds, which verifies Starfire's claim of his superior reflexes.

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My conclusion due to his show of superhuman speed and skill, I say he takes the majority of Blade.

didnt we debunk that speed feat as pis in the logan vs slade debate im sure we did hmmm (talkin bout dodging starfire blast and tagging kf

@wolverine08@jashro44@super_soldierxii didnt we already say that was pis in that debate

@demonyusuke713: said:

didnt we already say that was pis in that debate.

It is definitely not PIS, PIS is him stabbing nano second reaction time flash. You can label it as PIS, but I don't think I brought up any of his PIS showings, like multiple grown up flash taggings, and taking down the justice league with flash in it ect....

@cable_extreme:

Deathstroke and Nightwing are easily a good enough group to defeat Wolverine, you are fatally underestimating Nightwings ability, he has useful equipment that he can fight Wolverine for a while. And don't forget Deathstroke's ranged ability, he has a blasting staff that he can use to help Nightwing ect... You have just stated n opinion, I have stated one as well.

First, of course I don't believe it. No one does. It's an obvious lie to save face. Which you would have acheived simply by acquiescing certain points as valid and/or invalid.

Second, Nightwing is not, or never will be, a match for a fully functional Wolverine. He can hang, he can avoid, but it would take incredible WIS and a hefty amount of plot to have him winning even one out of ten matches.

Third, are you completely forgetting about Blade when you state; "Deathstroke and Nightwing as easily good enough group to defeat Wolverine". Of course they are. But Wolverine's not alone.

Sure, I stated an opinion and you yours. The whole exercise herein is to see which is more valid.

@jayaaerow:

It's not one-sided. Both of these characters have held their own/beaten characters they shouldn't be hanging with. It's not that one-sided. This is a 100% fully functional Blade and Wolverine vs Deathstroke and Nightwing. It's not just team 1. They have certain advantages not to be overlooked just because these guys outclass them in certain areas.

I'm not saying team 1 outclasses "them". I'm saying team 1 outclasses Nightwing. And in all areas ... except, perhaps, acrobatics. Wolverine & Blade only have to outclass one of the players from team 2 to make this match one-sided. Which they do, and which it is.

Deathstroke is a match for either from team 1 one on one. But, because Nightwing is a glaring weak link (and he is), it makes this match-up really rather easy to decide.

I NEVER said Nightwing would win vs Wolverine, I said he can stall him, which according to your post, you agree. Blade is a bad!@# but Slade has more feats supporting that he is more skilled, as well as more durable. Nightwing just has to stall Wolverine long enough for Slade to beat Blade, since they are both going for kill shots, it will end relatively quickly, while Nightwing will be focused on avoiding, and stalling. And whether or not you believe the instance with my brother, you cannot speak for everyone and bringing it up in other threads just shows that you have an ulterior motive rather than debating this fight.

So Nightwing, someone slower, less skilled by a marginal degree, weaker, and with no superhuman powers is going to stall the arguable MVP here since Slade is going to defeat Blade, someone with superhuman stats, a solid healing factor, and is decently skilled enough to at least give Slade a length of pause much quicker?

Whaaaat?

@god_spawn: That's my argument. Night wing hs feats that show superhuman traits. I could be wrong, she me why I am if you think I am :)

@cable_extreme: Not sure if I want to touch that debate....

@god_spawn: okay :)

@super_soldierxii:

Yes, Team 1 Outclasses them in certain aspects. Speed, Strength, etc. But Team 2 also has Vesatility(In Weaponry), Gadgetry, and Intellect, etc. Winning a battle doesn't necessarily always go down to Battle stats. Nightwing and Deathstroke prove it. @cable_extreme argues it's because of their advantages and Tactician mind they can pull a win. There's more to battles than physical stats. How many times have Batman beaten someone way more powerful then him with the use of gadgetry like electrical attacks or gas attacks? Or Captain America uses his shield and a well placed hit to beat someone who surpasses him physically? Must take those into consideration If a character is easily susceptible to it. We're aware Team 1 overall together outclasses Team 2, as Team 1 has a Mutant AND a Vampire while Team 2 has a Super Soldier and Human. However, Team 2 makes a career out of beating people who surpass them all around physically.

@god_spawn: No. Nightwing is peak human. Simply enough. His agility has been said to be "borderline metahuman" but for all intents and purposes, Blade and Wolverine's overall agility surpasses him(They can jump higher, moves in ways that won't break their backs). His fighting style is more acrobatic then theirs though and it's because of that he's not an easy target to tag and can still block and dodge things that exceed him to a certain margin. He obviously can't dodge attacks moving at hypersonic speeds continously. Same goes for strength. He can't tank a Superman punch that well. He can take Blockbuster's or a werewolf, but after a certain point, he will get knocked out/broken easily. This is why he makes career out of fighting metahumans that and uses skills, tactian ability, and intellect along with gadgetry to comphensate for not having powers. And it's been shown without him pre-reboot, the JL would of lost of Black Beetle and Trigon. He's no slouch just because he's human and technically the "Weak Link"

@jayaaerow: I fail to see your reason for responding to me?

@god_spawn: Whoops! I think I mentioned the wrong person. XD My bad.

EDIT: No wait, I had it right. The Peak human part was for a different user but my point is it's highly possible for him to "hang" with the MVP here. He's done so many times before and I've already posted scans of him either "hanging" or winning with people that surpasses him and Cable_Extreme argues that because he can do so and Slade can take both of them out via skills and tacitian ability while Nightwing hangs with Blade/Wolverine, whichever it may be, and can pull a win. I say he's not coming from nowhere. Though I still believe Team 1 wins. However, I'm not going to say that just because one surpasses Nightwing physically doesn't mean he can't hang around and use whatever means with gadgetry to win. It depends of who it is. In this, I don't think he can. He may be the technical weak link here but like someone pointed out, he's not to be underestimated himself. He's only a weak link in being human.

@cable_extreme: His feats in agility has been said to be "borderline metahuman" but for all intent and purposes, It's just Peak Human Agility on his end. He's not superhuman.

@jayaaerow Said:

Yes, Team 1 Outclasses them in certain aspects. Speed, Strength, etc. But Team 2 also has Vesatility(In Weaponry), Gadgetry, and Intellect, etc. Winning a battle doesn't necessarily always go down to Battle stats. Nightwing and Deathstroke prove it. @cable_extremeargues it's because of their advantages and Tactician mind they can pull a win. There's more to battles than physical stats. How many times have Batman beaten someone way more powerful then him with the use of gadgetry like electrical attacks or gas attacks? Or Captain America uses his shield and a well placed hit to beat someone who surpasses him physically? Must take those into consideration If a character is easily susceptible to it. We're aware Team 1 overall together outclasses Team 2, as Team 1 has a Mutant AND a Vampire while Team 2 has a Super Soldier and Human. However, Team 2 makes a career out of beating people who surpass them all around physically.

That is precisely my point, excellent job on summarizing :D

His feats in agility has been said to be "borderline metahuman" but for all intent and purposes, It's just Peak Human Agility on his end. He's not superhuman.

This is true, however, Nightwing is a lot like Batman, whom is also peak human. But if you look and compare some of batman's speed feats to Wolverine's you will see they are extremely close speed wise. This is one of the reasons I say Nightwing has a chance in this fight to stall Wolverine, I am not arguing over his superiority, just his ability to work with Slade. Him and Slade are more tactical as a group, than team one. Logan is smart though. But Nightwing, with his gear is being extremely underestimated by some people here.

@jayaaerow:

Yes, Team 1 Outclasses them in certain aspects. Speed, Strength, etc. But Team 2 also has Vesatility(In Weaponry), Gadgetry, and Intellect, etc. Winning a battle doesn't necessarily always go down to Battle stats. Nightwing and Deathstroke prove it. @cable_extreme argues it's because of their advantages and Tactician mind they can pull a win. There's more to battles than physical stats. How many times have Batman beaten someone way more powerful then him with the use of gadgetry like electrical attacks or gas attacks? Or Captain America uses his shield and a well placed hit to beat someone who surpasses him physically? Must take those into consideration If a character is easily susceptible to it. We're aware Team 1 overall together outclasses Team 2, as Team 1 has a Mutant AND a Vampire while Team 2 has a Super Soldier and Human. However, Team 2 makes a career out of beating people who surpass them all around physically.

The problem is a simple one; you have to show Nightwing can hang with either Wolverine or Blade long enough to see Deathstroke defeat either Wolverine or Blade. If all Nightwing does is run and avoid, he pretty much loses by default as he has to actually engage to keep his antagonist off Slade. And as soon as he engages, it's not going to take long for him to be overwhelmed. He's simply out of his league.

It's great to say team 2 has superior intellect and versatility due to weapons and gadgets, show how using them will actually mean something in a random against two blokes who will make this a hand to hand fight. Problem is, despite said "weaponry" and "gadgetry", Nightwing really doesn't have much at all to put either Blade or Wolverine down. And it's Deathstroke's intellect and weaponry that make him a very close fight against the likes of Wolverine in a random encounter. They're the only elements preventing Wolverine from taking a healthy majority, as opposed to a very slim one.

This is a fairly one sided match-up due to Nightwing remaining the weak link. There really are no if, ands or buts.

@jayaaerow: He's not just physically under both of them that is just a contributing factor. Wolverine is already in a different league than him skillwise, and while I do believe Grayson MIGHT be more skilled than Blade, that is mainly due to Blade not necessarily having as much exposure, but he is not so far beneath him that it can't be made up from his marginal difference in stats. Nightwing can hang with guys like Blockbuster or some opponents that out stat him because he does have the gadgets but also superior in agility. You put him against physically closer characters that are skilled fighters and things even out or go worse. He's been given good fights by Jason Todd. He's been punked by Deathstroke so many times and has admitted Slade could kill him without breaking a sweat. Bane has defeated him twice in 1 page each fight, and that was under Chuck Dixon, someone who was very fair to Nightwing's character. Hell, even when he was angry and tried fighting Bruce, Batman dodged every single one of his hits. His gadgets didn't help him much in a lot of those fights. He isn't just gonna automatically start pulling out sonics and gases when 8/10 times he is going for a direct melee approach. That doesn't sit well with him when Blade or Wolverine can take him out in to two strikes.

And Slade's tactical ability isn't going to help them either. Dick is going to dispatched quickly and Slade will get overwhelmed. He knows nothing of either opponent for them to come up with a plan in time for it to matter. This isn't like fighting the Justice League or Teen Titans where he knows their advantages and disadvantages. These are two opponents with physicals above Nightwing and skill levels above his, at least in Logan's sake, and at least Blade can hold off Stroke long enough for Wolverine to gut Grayson or vice versa.

Look at this website, the reason I am linking it to you is because it can provide you more about Nightwing's feats than I possibly could, and it has everything you need to know, based on the feats in this website, I can easily say Nightwing will not get one shotted like your trying to say. He takes on "multiple" people with super durability and speed, he even fights a few super soldiers that defeated Batman and does well.

http://nightwingfeats.blogspot.com/p/strategytactics.html

(I would also note Flash Bombs can overload Wolverine's senses momentarily)

@super_soldierxii:

True. But that's not my debate. Like I said, I agree. There's some thing Team 1 has advantages that can't be overlooked . He's not going to be running and dodging. That's not typical of him to do when he engages fights. He has access to tech in a manner similar to Batman. He, nowadays, has sonic devices, electical escrima sticks, and explosive bombs/detonators. Though like you said, they make things physical and that usual advantage he has fighting metahumans where he can simply outmaneuver them with the use of tactian ability, intellect and utilize gadgetry wouldn't matter, as these character can take it and keep going.

I can agree from what you're saying, as it does go along with my understanding, it can be viewed as one sided. I probably thought you said that he loses just for being a human fighitng superhumans XD But from what you've explain, it mirrors my reason Team 1 wins this. You're right. Even with the tech and ability, he will eventually be overwhelmed. There's nothing he has that can really put them out of commission and only prolongs the inevitable. And when he goes down, Deathstroke isn't going to have it easy to handle 2 opponents he knows nothing about. The most he can do here is "hang" until Deathstroke beates one opponents and tag team but there's a possibility that he might not hang for as long as it takes, as these opponents are stubborn and not pushovers. I see your point.

Fair enough

I know of Nightwing's feats. Thanks. I actually read comics about the folks I debate. Might be a novel idea and all ... but go figure.

And I never said "one shot" ... I said he'd lose succinctly and emphatically. Which he will. Certainly faster than Deathstroke will drop any of the two antagonists from team 1 - both of whom have healing factors and durability to make outlasting Nightwing a rather elementary and foregone conclusion. Astounding folks are arguing the point to be blunt. Boggles the mind really.

Though were Wolverine to punch Nightwing in the face claws out then yeah, Dick would be one shot.

The only reason you post a link to a Nightwing respect thread, and find them impressive enough to see him holding his own here, is because you have little to no idea what he's up against herein. The only feats you seem to acknowledge with regards Wolverine are the handful of low end feats circulating the Vine, which are far, far outweighed by feats to contradict. Then you ignore all feats shown, and continue to hold that your paltry handful in comparison are somehow enough to make a plethora of Wolverine's feats "invalid". Rubbish.

Oh yeah, I forgot, that was your little brother who did that. My bad.

@super_soldierxii: Said:

I know of Nightwing's feats. Thanks. I actually read comics about the folks I debate. Might be a novel idea and all ... but go figure.

And I never said "one shot" ... I said he'd lose succinctly and emphatically. Which he will. Certainly faster than Deathstroke will drop any of the two antagonists from team 1 - both of whom have healing factors and durability to make outlasting Nightwing a rather elementary and foregone conclusion. Astounding folks are arguing the point to be blunt. Boggles the mind really.

So if i am to imitate you, I am to make a point, then degrade to person your addressing... Notice it is a common thing with you, you cannot hardly go a sentence without saying I don't read comics, or i have elementary and forgone conclusions. You failed at providing any cemented counter argument, you simply are either have something against my brother and are now taking it out on me, or you are desperate that your "wolvy" wins.

The only reason you post a link to a Nightwing respect thread, and find them impressive enough to see him holding his own here, is because you have little to no idea what he's up against herein. The only feats you seem to acknowledge with regards Wolverine are the handful of low end feats circulating the Vine, which are far, far outweighed by feats to contradict. Then you ignore all feats shown, and continue to hold that your paltry handful in comparison are somehow enough to make a plethora of Wolverine's feats "invalid". Rubbish.

Oh yeah, I forgot, that was your little brother who did that. My bad.

Or that I do not have a handful of Nightwing scans laying around... of course a thought like that wouldn't have crossed your mind, you already assume so much about me. And what feats are you saying I acknowledge and don't acknowledge? Provide an example, hardly any Wolverine feats have been shown on this forum. And if you think I am simply saying it is my brother then what would be the point of me saying this " I agree with EVERYTHING he said"? Would that completely destroy your assumption about me trying to look good or whatever? The truth is I do not care what you believe, but if you keep bringing it up, and trying to distract me from this debate, you and me will probably go back and forth a result in locking this thread and making both of us look bad. It is your choice what you want to do, if you want to be mature and debate then go for it, if not, then I am done with you.

@god_spawn:

I give you that. You make good points. Though he's a character subject to growth. He might of lost to Bane or Batman but after those battles, his skills continue to grow no matter who writes him and I could argue he has what it takes to put up a fight with either Bane or Batman now and won't be one shotted or easily dodged. He's already handled a perfect clone of Batman(said by Darkseid) who had his fighting ability and enhanced strength and actually gained the uppperhand but it really wasn't that smart so im not sure if that contribues to being a feat that can put him at Batman. That would at least assert to me at the time i was reading that he is at least very close or equal(I doubt this) to Batman in fighting ability by the time he became Batman himself. Point is: Bringing up one fight from the past doesn't equal him being effortlessly owned again.

And earlier many times, he would go for direct combat first. But still does't mean he wont use it. He might not jump to it but he has no problems using it If he has it on hand and he can. There's scans to show that he uses gadgetry against superhuman opponents. It really varies. I really can't tell you what he uses it for and when not when it's superhuman opponents.

There's also scans out there that show he can take more than 2 hits from either Blade or Wolverine. Maybe not with Adamantium claws or adamantium sword if they hit him with it but im sure he can take a punch or a kick. There's various feats that show he can.

@jayaaerow: And those characters have also been subject to growth themselves. Batman is always improving himself. Bane, aside from new 52, was doing some of his best feats off of venom. Slade was also still pulling out ridiculous street level showings himself. While Dick has the most potential due to his age, but his progress vs theirs never suggested he is going do much better than he did before. So honestly your point about it is still irrelevant since he doesn't have any showings to suggest he is hanging in there when he has multiple showings suggesting said characters of that type, being more skilled and physically superior, 95% are shown beating him without much issue.

It's not that he completely ignores it, it's he won't have the time to use. Just because he has a type of gear doesn't mean he will get the chance to use it. And Blade and Wolverine have no noticeable superhuman distinct traits that are noticeable right off the bat. They look like normal guys except for Blade's teeth, and Wolverine is shorter and furry. He isn't just gonna see them and go "yup, they are superhuman" right at the start of the fight. So why is he immediately going to resort to gear when, like I said, 8/10 he doesn't immediately go for it? He doesn't know a thing about either of them to make that call, so he will go for what is most often.

And when do you often see Wolverine not using his claws, or Blade not pulling out some type of weapon, mostly his sword? Not very often. Of course they will come into the beginning of the battle with their trademark gear, just like Slade will with his sword and guns and Nightwing's escrima sticks. They aren't coming into this with their fists right off the bat. That is why Nightwing will fall quickly.

So if i am to imitate you, I am to make a point, then degrade to person your addressing

I'm not degrading you. You're degrading yourself in certain of your responses and I'm simply pointing it out.

Notice it is a common thing with you, you cannot hardly go a sentence without saying I don't read comics

I didn't say you don't read comics.

or i have elementary and forgone conclusions.

I said Nightwing losing to either Wolverine or Blade before either / or lose to Deathstroke in turn is a clear cut, foregone and elementary conclusion due to their healing factors & far superior durability. Get it right if you want to mope about my oh so harsh treatment of you.

You failed at providing any cemented counter argument

No I didn't.

you simply are either have something against my brother and are now taking it out on me, or you are desperate that your "wolvy" wins.

Funny how you say the exact same things, in exactly the same ways your purported brother did using and abusing your good name. I mean, exactly. You even express your hurt feelings the same. What a strange coincidence.

Or that I do not have a handful of Nightwing scans laying around... of course a thought like that wouldn't have crossed your mind, you already assume so much about me.

Why do I care about the handful of scans you have lying around, and why do you feel the need to defend yourself on that point? And the ideas I have concerning you and your approach to a debate have been substantiated over and over and over again by responses you've made and the content of your retorts.

And if you think I am simply saying it is my brother then what would be the point of me saying this " I agree with EVERYTHING he said"? Would that completely destroy your assumption about me trying to look good or whatever?

I'm going to go with no. For obvious reasons.

The truth is I do not care what you believe,

Lies!!

but if you keep bringing it up, and trying to distract me from this debate, you and me will probably go back and forth a result in locking this thread and making both of us look bad. It is your choice what you want to do, if you want to be mature and debate then go for it, if not, then I am done with you.

I'm really and truly going to opt for you being done with me please. I'm serious. Please? I may (or may not) refute points you make when I disagree with them because, quite frankly, many things you quote as truth but are so blatantly off, are just too hard to ignore. But I will, however, refrain from doing so directly unless you respond to me directly. And you are most welcome to ignore everything and anything I say.

Wolverine and Blade win a strong majority for many reasons delineated in the past few pages of this thread.

Cheers.

@god_spawn: I cant say you're not wrong. Im pretty sure DC will make sure their trademark character won't be surpassed or let his protege catch up to him to suggest he can put up a good fight. And for Bane, he has to keep up. :/

I think if this is current Wolverine as you have ranted about before, Nightwing could give Logan some trouble before going down with a single stab like Batroc did.

@yourneighborhoodcomicgeek: OP ended up saying it was Logan with the healing factor.