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#51 Posted by The_MVPs (84693 posts) - - Show Bio

Static Shock says:

"Tasky was going to win hands down, has it not been for the jet. Right?"

They never really fought. Taskmaster showed up and Moon Knights crib, did a number on Moony and his girl before the Butler some how managed to shoot him with a freakin mussel loader.

Taskmaster goes back to his benefactors and wants to be compensated. Moon Knight crashes a jet through the window, Tasky jumps on the cockpit window and Moon Knight ejects the canopy up into the ceiling, taking Taskmaster with it.

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#52 Posted by Buckshot (18915 posts) - - Show Bio

Gambler says:

"Yeah I know, but I wasn't about to give em ammunition.I'm not a big fan of, "So an so beat em, so this person can beat em" scenario (though I'm sure I've used it before)I liked the point Buckshot made about Black Panther being able to switch styles, and how was that different from what Taskmaster does. I'd say the difference is this. The styles Taskmaster has copied, Elektra, Daredevil, Captain America, iron Fist, these are personal styles. Honed and individually crafted by Marvel's top hand to hand fighters. And Taskmaster has in return, taking **ALL** these styles, and crafted them into his own style. So although there may be little difference in the actually switching of styles, I believe the transition would be effortless for Task.As I showed earlier, he can switch in mid-movement. I don't know if BP can do the same. Would he have to reposition himself? Can he make the transition from one style to the next while being attacked? "

I wasn't using DP's win to justify BP's, just saying that he beat TM with skill after that fight where he won on pure crazy, and in the second fight TM was giving it his all. That was a separate thing that came up, I was just explaining.

The same way TM has "personalized" all the styles he's stolen - though technically I don't think he has, that goes against the idea that he does exactly what they do. He may have made his transitions fluid, but he's still performing other people's moves the same way they do. But using your words - BP has "personalized" the moves he uses. There's no specific evidence here, but it makes sense that he would perform whatever moves he uses his own way, however is more comfortable for him and still effective. I don't see why it would make sense for (from your examples) Captain America to make the skills and moves he's learned work for him, his "personal style", but BP not do the same. And the whole point of practice and repetition is to make the movements natural and effortless, as instinctive as possible. Seeing as BP has been practicing how to fight (in all kinds of different styles) for about 30 years (since before he could walk) I would assume he would be able to switch things up as easily as TM can.

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#53 Posted by The_MVPs (84693 posts) - - Show Bio

I see what your saying, and I'll try to articulate (EC's word) what I mean. Black Panther is one man who's mastered a wide variety of moves and styles. Taskmaster has mastered the moves and styles of dozens of fighters, not just the Marvel U, but television, movies, random encounters.

Say Cap has mastered 4 different styles and made it his own. Taskmaster now has these 4 styles (Cap's) at his disposal. Say Iron Fist has 16 styles that he's crafted into his own. Taskmaster now has these on tap as well. You see what I'm trying to say?

Its not so much, whats the difference between Black Panther switching styles and Taskmaster using other peoples styles, its the sheer volume of styles Taskmaster has surmounted. BP may have been training since before he could walk, doesn't mean his better. Taskmaster doesn't have to train to learn styles, he just needs to see them. The fact that Taskmaster has seen Black Panther fight is a huge advantage.


Post Edited:2008-02-03 01:51:21

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#54 Posted by Static Shock (47329 posts) - - Show Bio

Colt Python says:

"But this is Black Panther and he always over comes the impossible and he doesn't technically have any powers."

Enhanced physical attributes and superhuman senses count as powers.

#55 Posted by Buckshot (18915 posts) - - Show Bio

Gambler says:

"I see what your saying, and I'll try to articulate (EC's word) what I mean. Black Panther is one man who's mastered a wide variety of moves and styles. Taskmaster has mastered the moves and styles of dozens of fighters, not just the Marvel U, but television, movies, random encounters.Say Cap has mastered 4 different styles and made it his own. Taskmaster now has these 4 styles (Cap's) at his disposal. Say Iron Fist has 16 styles that he's crafted into his own. Taskmaster now has these on tap as well. You see what I'm trying to say?Its not so much, whats the difference between Black Panther switching styles and Taskmaster using other peoples styles, its the sheer volume of styles Taskmaster has surmounted. BP may have been training since before he could walk, doesn't mean his better. Taskmaster doesn't have to train to learn styles, he just needs to see them. The fact that Taskmaster has seen Black Panther fight is a *huge* advantage.
Post Edited:2008-02-03 01:51:21"

I see what you're saying but a lot of it can be answered by my other post at the bottom of page 1. I'm not including tv (what show was he on?) and crossover skills he's copied because I don't know the canonicity (I'll pretend that's a word) of all of them. Let's use your example: Say he learns four things from Cap and 16 from Iron Fist. Does he now have 20 or does he have only 16? How much of their skills overlap? If we're taking skills from the best MU fighters, a lot of what they know/how they fight will overlap. They may have their own takes on something or might have come up with something new, but there will be overlap. If two guys know almost all there is to know about something, the majority of what they know is the same. (And BP, being one of those guys, would know all that stuff too, so no major advantage is gained.) Then, how much of each person's moves does he have? Has he seen Cap's every move? No. I know he gets stuff from more than just his personal fights (he watches other people fight, watches recordings of real and tv/movie fights, etc), but he can't possibly know everything. It's not Cap + Iron Fist + DD + Spider-Man etc. It's some of Cap, plus some of the next guy and so on. Properly used, these parts are all dangerous, but it's not like he's 100% of everyone at once. Then, how much of that stuff is truly effective? If (let's just say) 70% of the offensive moves he knows are purely strikes, then 70% of what he can do is useless while BP is wearing his uniform. He undoubtedly has other moves, but I'm just making a point. Then you're talking about the large number of styles TM has under his belt. BP has mastered (and that does mean that he's better) every form of unarmed combat. That's a pretty big hand to draw from isn't it? (Once again, I know TM has more skills than unarmed combat i.e. Cap, DD and Silver Samurai for example all use weapons and TM knows some of there moves.) And like I said before, I don't see why TM knowing some of BP's moves is such a "huge" advantage. So he may know how to counter a few of his moves, so what? What's he going to do every time BP uses one he hasn't seen yet, or uses an old one in a new way. DP brought up a point when he fought TM. He said, "What's so impressive about copying other people's fighting skills when I can come up with original ones all my own!" You're right, TM doesn't have to spend decades training to learn how to pull of any of the moves that make other people dangerous, but no matter how well he mixes them up and switches between them, he's still using the same moves while BP can use all he's learned to create moves that are totally original and tailor made for the situation he's in at the instant that he needs them. BP has the intelligence, experience and creativity to do that. And then he has his weapons.

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#56 Posted by Static Shock (47329 posts) - - Show Bio

Buckshot says:

"I see what you're saying but a lot of it can be answered by my other post at the bottom of page 1. I'm not including tv (what show was he on?) and crossover skills he's copied because I don't know the canonicity (I'll pretend that's a word) of all of them. Let's use your example: Say he learns four things from Cap and 16 from Iron Fist. Does he now have 20 or does he have only 16? How much of their skills overlap? If we're taking skills from the best MU fighters, a lot of what they know/how they fight will overlap. They may have their own takes on something or might have come up with something new, but there will be overlap. If two guys know almost all there is to know about something, the majority of what they know is the same. (And BP, being one of those guys, would know all that stuff too, so no major advantage is gained.) Then, how much of each person's moves does he have? Has he seen Cap's every move? No. I know he gets stuff from more than just his personal fights (he watches other people fight, watches recordings of real and tv/movie fights, etc), but he can't possibly know everything. It's not Cap + Iron Fist + DD + Spider-Man etc. It's *some* of Cap, plus *some* of the next guy and so on. Properly used, these parts are all dangerous, but it's not like he's 100% of everyone at once. Then, how much of that stuff is truly effective? If (let's just say) 70% of the offensive moves he knows are purely strikes, then 70% of what he can do is useless while BP is wearing his uniform. He undoubtedly has other moves, but I'm just making a point. Then you're talking about the large number of styles TM has under his belt. BP has mastered (and that *does* mean that he's better) every form of unarmed combat. That's a pretty big hand to draw from isn't it? (Once again, I know TM has more skills than unarmed combat i.e. Cap, DD and Silver Samurai for example all use weapons and TM knows some of there moves.) And like I said before, I don't see why TM knowing *some* of BP's moves is such a "huge" advantage. So he may know how to counter a few of his moves, so what? What's he going to do every time BP uses one he hasn't seen yet, or uses an old one in a new way. DP brought up a point when he fought TM. He said, "What's so impressive about copying other people's fighting skills when I can come up with original ones all my own!" You're right, TM doesn't have to spend decades training to learn how to pull of any of the moves that make other people dangerous, but no matter how well he mixes them up and switches between them, he's still using the same moves while BP can use all he's learned to create moves that are totally original and tailor made for the situation he's in at the instant that he needs them. BP has the intelligence, experience and creativity to do that. And then he has his weapons."

Excellent point.

#57 Posted by T.J. Magnum (27685 posts) - - Show Bio

well with all the info on him i change my pick to BP,there are many given factors suit,weapons etc. that lean to him winning,but i think taskmaster might make it though

#58 Posted by Buckshot (18915 posts) - - Show Bio

I feel like I've lessened Taskmaster in my own mind, which was not my intent. Taskmaster is awesome.

Close fight, I just happen to side with BP.

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#59 Posted by T.J. Magnum (27685 posts) - - Show Bio

Buckshot says:

"I feel like I've lessened Taskmaster in my own mind, which was not my intent. Taskmaster is awesome. Close fight, I just happen to side with BP."

no you haven't,you were just giving the facts

#60 Posted by Alexander Anderson (4030 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm leaning toward BP, mostly because of the gear. If they were fighting in street clothes Taskmaster would win.

#61 Posted by The_MVPs (84693 posts) - - Show Bio

Buckshot says:

" Let's use your example: Say he learns four things from Cap and 16 from Iron Fist. Does he now have 20 or does he have only 16? How much of their skills overlap? If we're taking skills from the best MU fighters, a lot of what they know/how they fight will overlap."

In the scan I showed of Taskmaster flipping, he starts off using Daredevil's flip, and in mid air, switches to Spiderman's. I believe this shows two things. First, Spiderman's flip and Daredevil's flip are completely different. Same move, different motion. And two, there most be some benefit or gain from switching from one to the other in mid motion. Iron Fist and Elektra are both martial artists, doesn't mean there styles are the same, so why would they then overlap if Taskmaster used them both? Obviously there's only so many ways to perform a certain move, but Taskmaster has taken all the styles he's copied, and created his own style.

Buckshot says:

" They may have their own takes on something or might have come up with something new, but there will be overlap. If two guys know almost all there is to know about something, the majority of what they know is the same. (And BP, being one of those guys, would know all that stuff too, so no major advantage is gained.) Then, how much of each person's moves does he have? Has he seen Cap's every move? No."

If Black Panther has mastered every form of unarmed combat, can we not apply the same question to him then? How many styles of his overlap? Taskmaster doesn't need ALL of Captain America's moves. He knows enough of them to build upon them in his own way. Say he only has 40% of Captain America's fighting style, and 60% of Hawkeye's, thats 100% of a style no one else has.

Buckshot says:

"I know he gets stuff from more than just his personal fights (he watches other people fight, watches recordings of real and tv/movie fights, etc), but he can't possibly know everything. It's not Cap + Iron Fist + DD + Spider-Man etc. It's *some* of Cap, plus *some* of the next guy and so on. Properly used, these parts are all dangerous, but it's not like he's 100% of everyone at once. Then, how much of that stuff is truly effective? If (let's just say) 70% of the offensive moves he knows are purely strikes, then 70% of what he can do is useless while BP is wearing his uniform. He undoubtedly has other moves, but I'm just making a point. Then you're talking about the large number of styles TM has under his belt. BP has mastered (and that *does* mean that he's better) every form of unarmed combat. "

He doesn't need to know everything. He doesn't fight as Cap, then DD, then Iron Fist, and so on. He fights as Capddironfisttaskmastert.v.moviefights. Its all wrapped up into one, and personalized. He sees a move, he adds it to the collective. Black Panther's uniform is a major advantage, but its not 100% durable. There are ways to penetrate it. And it doesn't prevent him from being grabbed, or tripped. How tightly is his mask/helmet on? Are his eyes exposed, and if not, there surely not covered with Vibranium.

Buckshot says:

" Then you're talking about the large number of styles TM has under his belt. BP has mastered (and that *does* mean that he's better) every form of unarmed combat. That's a pretty big hand to draw from isn't it? (Once again, I know TM has more skills than unarmed combat i.e. Cap, DD and Silver Samurai for example all use weapons and TM knows some of there moves.) And like I said before, I don't see why TM knowing *some* of BP's moves is such a "huge" advantage. So he may know how to counter a few of his moves, so what?"

Does it mean he's better? How do you compare say, being a master at grappling, to having 30% of this character, and 70% of that character and combining them into 100% of a style no one's ever seen? Is a Karate master more lethal then 20% of Black Panther, and 80% of Wolverine combined into 100% of a style no one's ever seen? I just broke it down like that so its easier for me :P You say he doesn't know all there moves just some, so then doesn't that defeat the earlier statement about overlapping? To me its like Frankenstein, its a style mastered from bits and pieces from everywhere. How much of Black Panther's moves he knows is purely speculation (until proven otherwise) Taskmaster may have only copied some of BP, but for all we know those few could be some of BP's go to moves, or best moves, we don't know. (or maybe you do) Knowing even some of his moves is a major advantage. Taskmaster can set up alot of different scenarios based on what he KNOWS BP is going to do in that situation.

Buckshot says:

"What's he going to do every time BP uses one he hasn't seen yet, or uses an old one in a new way. DP brought up a point when he fought TM. He said, "What's so impressive about copying other people's fighting skills when I can come up with original ones all my own!" You're right, TM doesn't have to spend decades training to learn how to pull of any of the moves that make other people dangerous, but no matter how well he mixes them up and switches between them, he's still using the same moves while BP can use all he's learned to create moves that are totally original and tailor made for the situation he's in at the instant that he needs them. BP has the intelligence, experience and creativity to do that. And then he has his weapons."

How do you know its a move he hasn't seen yet? It may be a move he hasn't seen BP use, but that doesn't mean its a move he's never seen anyone else use. Like you said, how many moves are there before they begin to overlap. Deadpool talks trash, he's taunting Taskmaster. Your using it to suggest Taskmaster cant, or hasn't come up with his own moves based on things he's seen. He has, thats whats so impressive about copying people's fighting style, the combinations and on the fly variations you can come up with. Taskmaster also has weapons, and can use them almost as well as thee originals. Arrows, guns, shields, and billy clubs. Then there's characters like Toad and Beast, who's fighting styles may be less then spectacular, but combine there acrobatics with the style of say Mr. X, or Spider Woman or both.

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#62 Posted by Static Shock (47329 posts) - - Show Bio

Gamber says:

How tightly is his mask/helmet on? Are his eyes exposed, and if not, there surely not covered with Vibranium.

The mask is tightly connected to the costume. He pulls it back like a hood. Also, he has complete control over the costume with his thoughts. If he doesn't want the mask removed, it won't be removed. As for the lens in his mask, Buckshot said that they were laced with Vibranium like the rest of his costume in an earlier thread a long time ago.

#63 Posted by The_MVPs (84693 posts) - - Show Bio

Static Shock says:

"Gamber says:
How tightly is his mask/helmet on? Are his eyes exposed, and if not, there surely not covered with Vibranium.

The mask is tightly connected to the costume. He pulls it back like a hood. Also, he has complete control over the costume with his thoughts. If he doesn't want the mask removed, it won't be removed. As for the lens in his mask, Buckshot said that they were laced with Vibranium like the rest of his costume in an earlier thread a long time ago."

Thanks.

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#64 Posted by Static Shock (47329 posts) - - Show Bio

No problem

#65 Posted by The_MVPs (84693 posts) - - Show Bio

Also, I know we agreed that the Red Skull fight was bad writing. But I'd like to submit two scans, the first is Red Skull with a beat down Black Panther, who's suit is torn, and the second is Black Panther, with his suit completely ripped off.


Post Edited:2008-02-03 05:50:10

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#66 Posted by Static Shock (47329 posts) - - Show Bio

T'Challa has been beaten by Killmonger three times in hand-to-hand combat. So, it's safe to say that Killmonger is a better martial-artist than T'Challa. And, I don't understand how Red Skull was able to hand with T'Challa either. Also, the suit wasn't ripped off. T'Challa removed it during the battle.

#67 Posted by The_MVPs (84693 posts) - - Show Bio

Buckshot stated that Black Panther is a MASTER of unarmed combat. Killmonger is only listed as exceptional by the Official Marvel Handbook.

And you can clearly see the rips under the mask and on the arms. If he had simply removed it they wouldn't be tore.

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#68 Posted by Static Shock (47329 posts) - - Show Bio

Yes. But there's something else. During that fight, Everett Ross distracted T'Challa by calling out to him. That alone gave Killmonger enough for a free shot, and they were already fighting for 19 hours straight. Maybe the Official Handbook has him listed as exceptional fighter. But, T'Challa was beaten to a pulp by him three times. I would understand that Official Handbook has his listed as an exceptional combatant, but he's the only fighter in Marvel that knows T'Challa's every move, inside and out. He knows how T'Challa fights. He was even able to keep up with Deadpool in combat, even though there was no real winner.

#69 Posted by The_MVPs (84693 posts) - - Show Bio

Static Shock says:

"Yes. But there's something else. During that fight, Everett Ross distracted T'Challa by calling out to him. That alone gave Killmonger enough for a free shot, and they were already fighting for 19 hours straight. Maybe the Official Handbook has him listed as exceptional fighter. But, T'Challa was beaten to a pulp by him three times. I would understand that Official Handbook has his listed as an exceptional combatant, but he's the only fighter in Marvel that knows T'Challa's every move, inside and out. He knows how T'Challa fights. He was even able to keep up with Deadpool in combat, even though there was no real winner. "

Does some of this fall under what Buck and I where discussing? Black Panther's fighting style is ever evolving. Killmonger may know some of his moves, but what about the new ones? Its the same as Taskmaster, Not only does he know BP's moves, he can duplicate them.

The real point I was trying to make with Killmonger, is about the suit. And just how durable it really is.

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#70 Posted by Static Shock (47329 posts) - - Show Bio

Killmonger shouldn't have been able to tear the suit without a bladed weapon. It will only tear if slashed against the grain. The suit absorbs anything with momentum (bullets, being stabbed with weapons, nullifies super-strong blows, etc.) and vibrational frequencies (sound, energy blasts, etc.). If stabbed by a knife or sword, the weapon will break. Bullets don't even come in contact with the suit. Once they are robbed of the momentum, they fall to the ground, intact. Having the suit torn the way it was in T'Challa's battle against Red Skull and Killmonger is considered bad writing. It was like that in his battle with Iron Fist as well. I'm guessing that writers have the suit torn to dramatize the story and such... It's like that for all superheroes, getting their suit torn in battle. Shrugs

As for what you and Buck were discussing, Killmonger knows T'Challa inside out. To me, that's more than Taskmaster knowing some of T'Challa's moves. And, I say that only because Killmonger has more experience in combat against T'Challa than any other villain in Marvel. In a way, it could fall under what you and Buck are talking about, but when speaking for Killmonger, I would have to say that he knows T'Challa better than Taskmaster, regardless of Tasky's photographic reflexes. I don't think Taskmaster has ever had a straight up fight against T'Challa to know his full range of combat. Except for maybe one panel during the Civil War. T'Challa laid out Tasky with one kick. But, the story wasn't written exclusively for Tasky as the main villain for the fight to be drawn out. And, it was a group of superheroes fighting against another group of superheroes. So, that doesn't really count. Just wanted to point that out.

#71 Posted by The_MVPs (84693 posts) - - Show Bio

He's had like five fights with Black Panther. How can you know all the moves, of someone who's mastered EVERY form of hand to hand combat? Knowing someone's moves, and having the skills to do something about it are two different things.

As for the suit, I know all about it. And blade weapons can cut it, if going with the grain.

I believe Taskmaster and Black Panther have met on more then just the one occasion. And I never said he knew ALL BP's moves. But on his page it states that he's copied SOME of his fighting style. To me thats more then one kick.

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#72 Posted by Static Shock (47329 posts) - - Show Bio

Well, maybe they did have five fights. But, I think that's more than what Taskmaster has had against Black Panther. Maybe Killmonger doesn't know all of T'Challa's moves, but still. Killmonger knows T'Challa and has a better understanding of how he fights based on all of the battles he has had with Black Panther up until now. He's beaten him three times in combat, and T'Challa hasn't beaten him once. He knows what he's gonna do in battle, and what to do to counteract against him. Taskmaster may have copied some of T'Challa's fighting style, but I believe Killmonger has more experience in how to deal with a fighter like T'Challa.

#73 Posted by The_MVPs (84693 posts) - - Show Bio

I can agree with that. Now back on topic :P

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#74 Posted by Static Shock (47329 posts) - - Show Bio

I wanna argue with you on why I think T'Challa would beat Taskmaster, but I can't do it as detailed as Buck can. So, I guess you'll have to wait for him. :P

#75 Posted by The_MVPs (84693 posts) - - Show Bio

I actually think Black Panther could win. But I also think Taskmaster could win, and like trying to debate Buck.

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#76 Posted by silli bill (236 posts) - - Show Bio

BP,but not so easily

#77 Posted by Buckshot (18915 posts) - - Show Bio

Sorry it took like 3 days. I've had (and still have) a lot of work and haven't been able to sit down and do anything other than my school stuff.

Gambler says:

"In the scan I showed of Taskmaster flipping, he starts off using Daredevil's flip, and in mid air, switches to Spiderman's. I believe this shows two things. First, Spiderman's flip and Daredevil's flip are completely different. Same move, different motion. And two, there most be some benefit or gain from switching from one to the other in mid motion. Iron Fist and Elektra are both martial artists, doesn't mean there styles are the same, so why would they then overlap if Taskmaster used them both? Obviously there's only so many ways to perform a certain move, but Taskmaster has taken all the styles he's copied, and created his own style. "

You’ve interpreted the image one way but I see it another. A move he learned from DD might be better for the first of a set of lasers while a move he learned from Spidey is better for the following group or it could also be the case that he just doesn’t have the right move from Spidey to do the whole set of lasers so he uses DD’s moves. Spider-Man can do any move DD can (major overlap), but if Tasky hasn’t seen him do what is needed in a situation but he has seen DD do it, he’ll use DD. That doesn’t mean that DD’s moves are totally different or better (definitely not better since Spider-Man kills in agility), just that he has seen DD use a move that would work there and he hasn’t seen Spider-Man do it. If by “created his own style” you mean strung together other people’s moves in unique ways then sure, he’s created his own style. That doesn’t mean that the moves he’s using are completely new, just that how he combines them is, and that doesn’t change the moves themselves.

Gambler says:

"If Black Panther has mastered every form of unarmed combat, can we not apply the same question to him then? How many styles of his overlap? Taskmaster doesn't need ALL of Captain America's moves. He knows enough of them to build upon them in his own way. Say he only has 40% of Captain America's fighting style, and 60% of Hawkeye's, thats 100% of a style no one else has. "

Sure a lot of BP’s skills overlap, but that’s because he knows all there is to know. You can’t possibly see that as a disadvantage. But who’s more likely to have their own take on something, be more creative and unpredictable, the guy who’s mastered every hand to hand fighting style and knows them all closely, or the guy who is limited to only performing the exact same moves as the ones he’s seen? Who will be more creative and spontaneous in battle? I’m not sure what you’re trying to say with the percentages. If TM has some moves from Cap and BP’s experience and knowledge makes him familiar with them enough so he can counter them and TM also has some moves from IF but BP can counter them as well, mixing up the order of the moves doesn’t change the fact that BP knows them and could, in theory, stop them. (Not saying that stopping these attacks would necessarily easy mind you, just that I think he could and he won’t be rocked like some AIM goon.) Even if he has never seen the combination before, if he knows the parts that it’s made from he can still defend against the “new style”. (And even if he hadn’t seen something before doesn’t mean it would necessarily work. His knowledge of the martial arts would be sufficient to let him adapt to things he’s never seen before. That wouldn’t be quite as true for TM though because he has the end product of the training, not the knowledge earned from years of training that goes with it. He can throw out thousands of amazing moves but if he can’t think of the right one to, he can’t just make up something new on the spot. Well, he can make something up but it won’t be as effective as if say, Iron Fist made something up.)

Gambler says:

"He doesn't need to know everything. He doesn't fight as Cap, then DD, then Iron Fist, and so on. He fights as Capddironfisttaskmastert.v.moviefights. Its all wrapped up into one, and personalized. He sees a move, he adds it to the collective. Black Panther's uniform is a major advantage, but its not 100% durable. There are ways to penetrate it. And it doesn't prevent him from being grabbed, or tripped. How tightly is his mask/helmet on? Are his eyes exposed, and if not, there surely not covered with Vibranium. "

You keep saying that what TM does is “personalized” when it’s not. He doesn’t put his own spin onto the moves he learns, what he does is exactly what he sees, that’s his skill. If you’re going to count “personalization” as something so important that it needs repeated mention, then it should be said that BP would have the advantage in that area. About the costume, I’m not saying it can’t be worked around, but it is a defense and a better one than TM has. Just by it being on limits what Taskmaster can do. It forces him to use certain moves and I would guess that BP, knowing what kinds of moves would hurt him despite his suit, would be prepared for those. (That’s speculation on my part of course, but I don’t think it’s totally out there seeing as we know Black Panther is very smart, always prepared, and a skilled fighter.) And while TM is trying to get around the suit, BP is attacking with claws that can easily slice through TM and energy weapons that can drop him in one hit. He’d be fighting like he normally does while TM has to adjust his whole battle plan right from the get go. On the energy dagger note, I think they are useful because while TM has the dodging abilities of people like Spider-Man and Daredevil, he doesn’t have the advance warning systems (radar and spider-sense) that would make dodging BP’s weapons effortless for them. Not saying he can’t dodge on his own or using other people’s skills, but Spidey and DD are his best chances for avoiding things, but they have something he can’t copy so even with their moves, it’s not as easy for him and it’s much more likely that he’ll get tagged.

Gambler says:

"Does it mean he's better? How do you compare say, being a master at grappling, to having 30% of this character, and 70% of that character and combining them into 100% of a style no one's ever seen? Is a Karate master more lethal then 20% of Black Panther, and 80% of Wolverine combined into 100% of a style no one's ever seen? I just broke it down like that so its easier for me :P You say he doesn't know all there moves just some, so then doesn't that defeat the earlier statement about overlapping? To me its like Frankenstein, its a style mastered from bits and pieces from everywhere. How much of Black Panther's moves he knows is purely speculation (until proven otherwise) Taskmaster may have only copied some of BP, but for all we know those few could be some of BP's go to moves, or best moves, we don't know. (or maybe you do) Knowing even some of his moves is a major advantage. Taskmaster can set up alot of different scenarios based on what he KNOWS BP is going to do in that situation. "

It does mean he’s better. If Taskmaster is using a sampling of moves from hundreds of different styles, but BP has mastered the styles they’re from, then it’s not like he’s defenseless. Every bit he uses, even if he mixes them up really well, will be recognizable to BP and things that he’s already studied and mastered and most likely has a counter for. Like I said above, if the 20% of five different people is all recognizable to BP (not because of knowledge of the people themselves, but because he knows the styles they’re using) then I don’t see why the combination would be any more effective. What I said about overlapping isn’t contradicted by him not knowing all their moves. 20% (since you like the percentages) of all Spider-Man’s flips is still a healthy number. Even if he doesn’t know a majority of their moves he still knows a good amount. (Which is a statement I would assume you agree with judging by some of your comments where you say fighting him would be like fighting the listed people all at once. If he knows enough of their moves that it’s like fighting Cap, DD , IF, etc all together, that would mean he knows more than just a handful of their moves.) Even if he doesn’t know all of them, there are still things that would overlap unless they all trained in completely unrelated schools of fighting and the moves TM ganked are nothing alike. And keep in mind, I’m not saying that the things that overlap are insignificant and don’t help TM, just that copying basically the same thing from 7 people doesn’t make it 7 times better.

And yes, what TM knows about BP is speculation so there’s no solid argument you can make unless you know what he knows. What comics do they fight in?

Gambler says:

"How do you know its a move he hasn't seen yet? It may be a move he hasn't seen BP use, but that doesn't mean its a move he's never seen anyone else use. Like you said, how many moves are there before they begin to overlap. Deadpool talks trash, he's taunting Taskmaster. Your using it to suggest Taskmaster cant, or hasn't come up with his own moves based on things he's seen. He has, thats whats so impressive about copying people's fighting style, the combinations and on the fly variations you can come up with. Taskmaster also has weapons, and can use them almost as well as thee originals. Arrows, guns, shields, and billy clubs. Then there's characters like Toad and Beast, who's fighting styles may be less then spectacular, but combine there acrobatics with the style of say Mr. X, or Spider Woman or both. "

If he makes up a move on the spot I doubt Taskmaster would recognize it. If BP knows all the fighting styles and he makes up something that’s not in any of them, then how would TM have seen it before? And Taskmaster doesn’t make up things on his own. I’m not saying that because I haven’t seen it (but I haven’t), but because Taskmaster’s whole deal is to copy other people’s moves so he doesn’t have to train or come up with them on his own. Like I said before, he is capable of making up moves of his own, but those are the moves of a man with a moderate understanding of martial arts, not a master. TM himself has said it before (or was it Echo, prolly both), he can see someone play a masterpiece on a piano and copy it perfectly, but he can’t make up his own or anything anywhere near it. Likewise, he can copy amazing moves and string them together beautifully, but he can’t develop his own that are anywhere near as effective as what he’s copied because he doesn’t have the knowledge (which, btw, is why I like Prodigy better). I’d say Taskmaster can take the vast majority of fighters in hand to hand, but true masters that are creative may be out of his reach. That’s not to say that he couldn’t give them a fight though (and if he survived it he’d walk away with a cool new bag of tricks). Despite what I’ve said, I don’t think BP is a “true master” simply because he’s not all about fighting, but I do think he’s good enough to take TM especially since in addition to his skills, he’s got useful toys, a costume made for defense, and a dangerous mind.

Like you said, Taskmaster also has things other than his moves too. He has lots of weapons, but most would run into the same problems with BP’s suit. The only thing I know he carries all the time that has a good chance at working is the sword. I think BP can handle a sword. He can avoid, cut it to pieces, or even let it hit him but not in a way that cuts the costume. I think that would discourage TM from using it again because he might think that the suit can’t cut at all, instead of taking time to find out which way to cut it. He’s also got acrobatics, but without the superhuman agility/balance of who he’s copied the moves from, it’s not an advantage because BP is also incredibly acrobatic.

For the Killmonger thing (I know you finished talking about it), I’m basically in agreement with Static. The main reason I think Killmonger wins repeatedly is because that’s what his character is for. That’s his entire reason for existing, to mess with BP. He’s even gone by the title “The Man Black Panther Never Beat.” But I won’t fall back on plot and try to dismiss BP’s losses and Erik’s victories (I’ll credit those to Killmonger’s own skill, his extensive knowledge of all things BP, and repeated wins giving him more confidence while chipping away at BP’s) however, I do believe that is the reason he was able to rip up his suit. I wrote about it in another thread a long time ago. In order to believe it possible for BP’s suit to be ripped by punches you either have to ignore explicit statements and examples that explain how vibranium works (and more specifically, how his suit works) throughout comics, or determine that that was ignored for some fights so they would be fair. Which is more likely, that vibranium (and BPs suit) doesn’t work how it’s been clearly shown to work or that sometimes logic gets overlooked to make a fight more entertaining or have a specific person win?

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#78 Posted by Static Shock (47329 posts) - - Show Bio

Buckshot says:

"But I won’t fall back on plotand try to dismiss BP’s losses and Erik’s victories (I’ll credit thoseto Killmonger’s own skill, his extensive knowledge of all things BP,and repeated wins giving him more confidence while chipping away atBP’s) however, I do believe that is the reason he was able to rip uphis suit. I wrote about it in another thread a long time ago. In orderto believe it possible for BP’s suit to be ripped by punches you eitherhave to ignore explicit statements and examples that explain howvibranium works (and more specifically, how his suit works) throughoutcomics, or determine that that was ignored for some fights so theywould be fair. Which is more likely, that vibranium (and BPs suit)doesn’t work how it’s been clearly shown to work or that sometimeslogic gets overlooked to make a fight more entertaining or have aspecific person win?"

Honestly, I think it's more likely that that sometimes logic gets overlooked to make things more entertaining. Because anyone who is familiar with Marvel as a whole would know what vibranium is capable of. It's effects have been explained since it was first introduced, more specifically, Captain America's shield (I'm not saying that was when vibranium first came into the picture, but it's a good example). The suit isn't 100% vibranium, so it also has a particular fabric that can tear. Note that when the suit comes in contact with impact, it's made to drain momentum. So, it would make sense that he can't be stabbed or shot. The way that comics have it written for his suit to be torn in hand-to-hand combat would more than likely be bad writing (Because if bullets and stabs have no effect on the suit, then how can punches and kicks cause the suit to tear?), but it's not as serious if you think about. The same thing happened in his fight with a brainwashed Iron Fist. The suit of course should have been able to withstand Iron Fist's super-strong blows. It may have, but not as much as it written to, and suit eventually got torn up. T'Challa, on the other hand, was knocked out right along with Danny at the end of the fight. If T'Challa had not been wearing the suit, those blows could have put him on his deathbed. But, in any case, his battles are written to have the effects of the suit ignored for the entertainment of the battle, IMO.

#79 Posted by The_MVPs (84693 posts) - - Show Bio

Nice post Buckshot. There are a couple things in first paragraph that I disagree with, but overall you make a great case for BP.

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#80 Posted by The_MVPs (84693 posts) - - Show Bio

Buckshot says:

"You’ve interpreted the image one way but I see it another. A move he learned from DD might be better for the first of a set of lasers while a move he learned from Spidey is better for the following group or it could also be the case that he just doesn’t have the right move from Spidey to do the whole set of lasers so he uses DD’s moves. Spider-Man can do any move DD can (major overlap), but if Tasky hasn’t seen him do what is needed in a situation but he has seen DD do it, he’ll use DD."

If Spiderman can do every move Daredevil can pull off (and like you said, overlapping) then how could it possible be better for Taskmaster to use it in the first place? You cant have it both ways, it cant be affected and then turn around and say they overlap. As for your second theory, Taskmaster has fought Spiderman on three separate occasions. (Marvel Team Up v1 #103, Marvel Team Up v1 #146, and Amazing Spiderman v1 #308) Thats more then enough times to copy his moves. Its obvious there showing Taskmaster pull off one maneuver using the copied styles of two great acrobats. It is his own move, it doesn't matter if on an individual level, people have seen Spiderman and Daredevil use those same flips, only Taskmaster is stringing them together. Its now a completely new flip.

Buckshot says:

"Sure a lot of BP’s skills overlap, but that’s because he knows all there is to know. You can’t possibly see that as a disadvantage. But who’s more likely to have their own take on something, be more creative and unpredictable, the guy who’s mastered every hand to hand fighting style and knows them all closely, or the guy who is limited to only performing the exact same moves as the ones he’s seen?"

Not a disadvantage, but if your a master of all forms of unarmed combat, your going to have a large section of overlapping abilities. How is that an advantage? They cancel each other out. I say the guy how's meticulously studied video tapes and movies to copy, athletes, stuntmen, marksmen, and soldiers is in no way shape or form short on creativity. You call it being limited, but think of the countless moves he would have just from ONE Kung-Fu flick, let alone hundreds of hours. You saying Black Panther is more creative based on what? I haven't seen any scans of him performing any moves that look any different from your garden variety hand to hand fighter. Where's the creativity in that?

Buckshot says:

" I’m not sure what you’re trying to say with the percentages. If TM has some moves from Cap and BP’s experience and knowledge makes him familiar with them enough so he can counter them and TM also has some moves from IF but BP can counter them as well, mixing up the order of the moves doesn’t change the fact that BP knows them and could, in theory, stop them."

The percentages you brought up in a previous post. You where making a point on how Taskmaster doesn't have ever single move of say Cap, that he may have 20%. I'm saying, 20% of Cap, mixed with 40% of Wolverine, mixed with 40% of Elektra, is 100% of a fighting style that only Taskmaster can do.

When did Black Panther start being able to counter moves he's seen before? If this where true why is Killmonger repeatedly kicking his @$$? He's a decent hand to hand fighter at best. According to your statement, simply because Black Panther has seen a style before he can defend it. I've seen no evidence that would suggest this.

Buckshot says:

" His knowledge of the martial arts would be sufficient to let him adapt to things he’s never seen before. That wouldn’t be quite as true for TM though because he has the end product of the training, not the knowledge earned from years of training that goes with it. He can throw out thousands of amazing moves but if he can’t think of the right one to, he can’t just make up something new on the spot. Well, he can make something up but it won’t be as effective as if say, Iron Fist made something up.)"

I kinda agree with this. His martial arts knowledge may allow him to adapt and counter certain moves on the fly, but that same knowledge could get him in trouble if he believes Taskmaster is using a certain style, and those he sets himself up for what he believes is the next logic step, but with Taskmaster's ability he may put himself in an even worse situation.

Buckshot says:

"You keep saying that what TM does is “personalized” when it’s not. He doesn’t put his own spin onto the moves he learns, what he does is exactly what he sees, that’s his skill."

Cause he does. Take the bullet catch for instance. He witnessed it done a certain way up close and personal. He copied it, but then a little later he uses it, but not the same way in which he saw it.

Here's when he sees it. Notice the dudes hand flies backwards as he catches it.

Now this is when Taskmaster uses it.

He even plays dead, now if that ain't personalizing a move he's copied then I dont know what is.

Buckshot says:

"About the costume, I’m not saying it can’t be worked around, but it *is* a defense and a better one than TM has. Just by it being on limits what Taskmaster can do. It forces him to use certain moves and I would guess that BP, knowing what kinds of moves would hurt him despite his suit, would be prepared for those. (That’s speculation on my part of course, but I don’t think it’s totally out there seeing as we know Black Panther is very smart, always prepared, and a skilled fighter.) And while TM is trying to get around the suit, BP is attacking with claws that can easily slice through TM and energy weapons that can drop him in one hit. He’d be fighting like he normally does while TM has to adjust his whole battle plan right from the get go. On the energy dagger note, I think they are useful because while TM has the dodging abilities of people like Spider-Man and Daredevil, he doesn’t have the advance warning systems (radar and spider-sense) that would make dodging BP’s weapons effortless for them. Not saying he can’t dodge on his own or using other people’s skills, but Spidey and DD are his best chances for avoiding things, but they have something he can’t copy so even with their moves, it’s not as easy for him and it’s much more likely that he’ll get tagged."

I agree completely that Black Panther's suit is a major advantage. But I cant help but wonder why there are so many instances of it being torn and shredded. (thats another issue though) There are ways around it however, like trick arrows. Taskmaster has em and some I'm sure would work in one capacity or another.

Buckshot says:

"It does mean he’s better. If Taskmaster is using a sampling of moves from hundreds of different styles, but BP has mastered the styles they’re from, then it’s not like he’s defenseless. Every bit he uses, even if he mixes them up really well, will be recognizable to BP and things that he’s already studied and mastered and most likely has a counter for. Like I said above, if the 20% of five different people is all recognizable to BP (not because of knowledge of the people themselves, but because he knows the styles they’re using) then I don’t see why the combination would be any more effective. What Isaid about overlapping isn’t contradicted by him not knowing all their moves. 20% (since you like the percentages) of all Spider-Man’s flips is still a healthy number. Even if he doesn’t know a majority of their moves he still knows a good amount. (Which is a statement I would assume you agree with judging by some of your comments where you say fighting him would be like fighting the listed people all at once. If he knows enough of their moves that it’s like fighting Cap, DD , IF, etc all together, that would mean he knows more than just a handful of their moves.) Even if he doesn’t know all of them, there are still things that would overlap unless they all trained in completely unrelated schools of fighting and the moves TM ganked are *nothing* alike. And keep in mind, I’m not saying that the things that overlap are insignificant and don’t help TM, just that copying basically the same thing from 7 people doesn’t make it 7 times better.And yes, what TM knows about BP *is* speculation so there’s no solid argument you can make unless you know what he knows. What comics do they fight in?"

The overlapping argument is pointless in my opinion. We all know Taskmaster doesn't throw a reverse elbow like U.S. Agent and then turn around and throw another reverse elbow as Elektra. Again, this is why his style of fighting IS personalized. Simply stringing any combination of styles together makes it personalized. Taskmaster DOES train, but he does it in his way. He had schools set up all over the country teaching people how to fight. Not just your random scrubs, but notable hand to hand fighters in the Marvel U. I don't know where your getting he copied the same 7 moves from 7 different people. He picks what he wants to copy, he also has photographic memory so he knows exactly what he has in his bag of tricks and what he needs or wants to add. In fact I'd say theres a greater possibility of Black Panther's skills overlapping then there is of Taskmasters.

Buckshot says:

"If he makes up a move on the spot I doubt Taskmaster would recognize it. If BP knows all the fighting styles and he makes up something that’s not in any of them, then how would TM have seen it before? And Taskmaster doesn’t make up things on his own. I’m not saying that because I haven’t seen it (but I haven’t), but because Taskmaster’s whole deal is to copy other people’s moves so he doesn’t have to train or come up with them on his own. Like I said before, he is capable of making up moves of his own, but those are the moves of a man with a moderate understanding of martial arts, not a master. TM himself has said it before (or was it Echo, prolly both), he can see someone play a masterpiece on a piano and copy it perfectly, but he can’t make up his own or anything anywhere near it. Likewise, he can copy amazing moves and string them together beautifully, but he can’t develop his own that are anywhere near as effective as what he’s copied because he doesn’t have the knowledge (which, btw, is why I like Prodigy better). I’d say Taskmaster can take the vast majority of fighters in hand to hand, but true masters that are creative may be out of his reach. That’s not to say that he couldn’t give them a fight though (and if he survived it he’d walk away with a cool new bag of tricks). Despite what I’ve said, I don’t think BP is a “true master” simply because he’s not all about fighting, but I do think he’s good enough to take TM especially since in addition to his skills, he’s got useful toys, a costume made for defense, and a dangerous mind.Like you said, Taskmaster also has things other than his moves too. He has lots of weapons, but most would run into the same problems with BP’s suit. The only thing I know he carries all the time that has a good chance at working is the sword. I think BP can handle a sword. He can avoid, cut it to pieces, or even let it hit him but not in a way that cuts the costume. I think that would discourage TM from using it again because he might think that the suit can’t cut at all, instead of taking time to find out which way to cut it. He’s also got acrobatics, but without the superhuman agility/balance of who he’s copied the moves from, it’s not an advantage because BP is also incredibly acrobatic.For the Killmonger thing (I know you finished talking about it), I’m basically in agreement with Static. The main reason I think Killmonger wins repeatedly is because that’s what his character is for. That’s his entire reason for existing, to mess with BP. He’s even gone by the title “The Man Black Panther Never Beat.” But I won’t fall back on plot and try to dismiss BP’s losses and Erik’s victories (I’ll credit those to Killmonger’s own skill, his extensive knowledge of all things BP, and repeated wins giving him more confidence while chipping away at BP’s) however, I do believe that is the reason he was able to rip up his suit. I wrote about it in another thread a long time ago. In order to believe it possible for BP’s suit to be ripped by punches you either have to ignore explicit statements and examples that explain how vibranium works (and more specifically, how his suit works) throughout comics, or determine that that was ignored for some fights so they would be fair. Which is more likely, that vibranium (and BPs suit) doesn’t work how it’s been clearly shown to work or that sometimes logic gets overlooked to make a fight more entertaining or have a specific person win?"

I think he would. How many possibly moves are there? How many variations has Taskmaster come across in his career? Now if its not even a style, just Black Panther fighting with his heart or emotions and not with a variation of any set style (like Deadpool did) then I agree with you. But I dont see Black Panther doing that.

Taskmaster doesn't need to come up with his own (masterpieces) as you put it. He basically has an endless supply of moves. He's fought characters with similar styles as Black Panther (Puma) being one of them. Black Panther may be a master of all forms of un-armed combat, but do you think Taskmaster has never copied the moves of a master before? I think the fact that he has fought, and watched other people besides the Marvel U characters gets overlooked, but its just as important. I have a scan where Taskmaster actually claims to have copied Spiderman's speed and agility that along with his double time speed should make him more acrobatic then BP.

I'm not addressing the Killmongar issue anymore. But I will say there are some serious inconstancies as far as BP's suit is concerned.

BP and Taskmaster fought in the JLA/Avengers crossovers. #3 (2003) and #4 (2004)

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#81 Posted by Static Shock (47329 posts) - - Show Bio

Gambler says:

"BP and Taskmaster fought in the JLA/Avengers crossovers. #3 (2003) and #4 (2004)"

Who won?

#82 Posted by The_MVPs (84693 posts) - - Show Bio

Black Panther's team.

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#83 Posted by Static Shock (47329 posts) - - Show Bio

CHEAYUH BUDDY! :P I'm downloading those issues now. I read the first 2, but I never finished. Thought JLA/Avengers was boring.

#84 Posted by The_MVPs (84693 posts) - - Show Bio

cool. maybe you could post some scans later.

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#85 Posted by Static Shock (47329 posts) - - Show Bio

Yeah. I'm guaranteed to do that. But, that depends on whether or not the fight focuses more on them. That crossover never really focused on one-on-one fights.

#86 Posted by The_MVPs (84693 posts) - - Show Bio

Yeah I've always wondered that. Alot of places have Black Panther down as one of the copied styles of Taskmaster. It will be interesting to see if they actually throw down, or if Taskmaster observes BP or what.

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#87 Posted by Static Shock (47329 posts) - - Show Bio

I want an actual fight between the both of them that's in Volume 4 of Black Panther. That is, if Hudlin can make it interesting without hacking it.

#88 Posted by Buckshot (18915 posts) - - Show Bio

Gambler says:

"If Spiderman can do every move Daredevil can pull off (and like you said, overlapping) then how could it possible be better for Taskmaster to use it in the first place? You cant have it both ways, it cant be affected and then turn around and say they overlap. As for your second theory, Taskmaster has fought Spiderman on three separate occasions. (Marvel Team Up v1 #103, Marvel Team Up v1 #146, and Amazing Spiderman v1 #308) Thats more then enough times to copy his moves. Its obvious there showing Taskmaster pull off one maneuver using the copied styles of two great acrobats. It is his own move, it doesn't matter if on an individual level, people have seen Spiderman and Daredevil use those same flips, only Taskmaster is stringing them together. Its now a completely new flip. "

I don’t get what your first couple sentences are saying. The part after that I just don’t agree with. You think that three fights with Spider-Man has shown Taskmaster every move he’s capable of? Really? I also disagree with the fact that “obviously” they’re showing that Taskmaster is turning two moves into one. It shows him mirroring DD and then mirroring Spider-Man. It doesn’t have a picture of both of them overlayed, it doesn’t even show a half panel of both of them (like it does when he starts using DD’s move or Spider-Man’s). If you really want to look at it, it goes out of its way to show him using DD’s move, then he’s shown as himself (look at his legs after DDs image is shown) before using Spider-Man’s move. Both of them are shown separately. And putting one move after another does not change the individual moves.

Gambler says:

"Not a disadvantage, but if your a master of all forms of unarmed combat, your going to have a large section of overlapping abilities. How is that an advantage? They cancel each other out. I say the guy how's meticulously studied video tapes and movies to copy, athletes, stuntmen, marksmen, and soldiers is in no way shape or form short on creativity. You call it being limited, but think of the countless moves he would have just from ONE Kung-Fu flick, let alone hundreds of hours. You saying Black Panther is more creative based on what? I haven't seen any scans of him performing any moves that look any different from your garden variety hand to hand fighter. Where's the creativity in that? "

How does knowing everything cancel itself out? He doesn’t get “extra skill” from where two schools cross over, but he still knows all that he knows, and simply knowing more is the advantage. You talk about TM having such a large number of moves to draw from, but it’s not as large as someone who knows the ins and outs of a specific discipline, not just how to perform the hardest moves in it. The moves he has are probably some of the best (I don’t know how you’d quantify that, maybe hardest to pull off?) because he gets them from the best, but it’s not the same as being able to do all the things that go into it, all the variations of it, or create new things based off it.

All the moves he’d get from a kung fu movie would be less than what an actual master of kung fu would know (and the moves he could invent). I’m saying BP is more creative because he’s capable of using his knowledge to create new moves, not just link together a bunch of prerecorded ones. He doesn’t just know a bunch of moves, he knows all the work that goes into it. That’s what all the people who studied to learn the moves that Taskmaster takes have over him. It’s not necessarily enough on it’s own, but it’s something they have.

Gambler says:

"The percentages you brought up in a previous post. You where making a point on how Taskmaster doesn't have ever single move of say Cap, that he may have 20%. I'm saying, 20% of Cap, mixed with 40% of Wolverine, mixed with 40% of Elektra, is 100% of a fighting style that only Taskmaster can do.When did Black Panther start being able to counter moves he's seen before? If this where true why is Killmonger repeatedly kicking his @$$? He's a decent hand to hand fighter at best. According to your statement, simply because Black Panther has seen a style before he can defend it. I've seen no evidence that would suggest this. "

I understand the percentages themselves, but not the point behind them. If each individual 20% (or set of similar moves) can be dealt with, then putting them together doesn’t drastically increase their effectiveness. It would make it hard to find a pattern I’m sure, but (oversimplified) if you know how to block a punch you’ll still be able to block it if it comes at you after a kick.

I think you’re taking the counter thing differently than I meant it. I’m not treating it like an uberskill like TM’s move reading. BP being able to counter a move is just what I think is logical from someone who likely knows something about whichever style the move TM is throwing at him comes from. If a boxing coach is sparring with a student and he knows the kinds of moves the student has learned, he’ll probably know how to avoid or counter him when he attacks, right? I think it’s similar to that. And like I said, it probably won’t be easy and he might not be able to do it all the time, but I think he can. And so what if he doesn’t know exactly where something is coming from (or doesn’t recognize it because of what other moves TM uses it with), most fighters in comics don’t know all there is to know about every kind of fighting yet they don’t always lose when someone comes in with something they haven’t seen before. The good fighters adapt and use what they know to win. BP can use his greater knowledge of hand to hand combat against TM even if he uses weird stuff in a weird way.

Gambler says:

"I kinda agree with this. His martial arts knowledge may allow him to adapt and counter certain moves on the fly, but that same knowledge could get him in trouble if he believes Taskmaster is using a certain style, and those he sets himself up for what he believes is the next logic step, but with Taskmaster's ability he may put himself in an even worse situation. "

And that’s something that could happen in any fight, Taskmaster isn’t unique in this. BP is just as capable of mixing things up as Taskmaster is. What makes you think Taskmaster would be any better at predicting BP’s moves if he starts throwing things together from totally unrelated schools of martial arts?

Gambler says:

"Bullet thing "

That’s minor variation like you’d get from someone being a different size or the attack coming from a different direction or like what happens by default when his body can’t duplicate a blatantly superhuman move. I’m talking about something like this: If TM saw Bullseye kill a fly with a paperclip from 50 feet away, that wouldn’t enable him to make all the same shots Bullseye does. Seeing that wouldn’t allow him to do something like bounce penny off each wall of a room and then kill a fly. Seeing Bullseye ricochet a knife around a room wouldn’t let him pull off a trick like slamming a plate on the ground in the middle of a troop of soldiers and having every shard kill one of them. Taskmaster can’t make up moves or tailor them (significantly) for his use. And you really think playing dead is that significant a change? Falling down at the end (which actually happens after the move he copied was used so it’s not like it was changed) doesn’t really seem impressive to me.

Gambler says:

"I agree completely that Black Panther's suit is a major advantage. But I cant help but wonder why there are so many instances of it being torn and shredded. (thats another issue though) There are ways around it however, like trick arrows. Taskmaster has em and some I'm sure would work in one capacity or another. "

There are so many instances of it because of bad writing (or if not straight up bad, just writing more focused on entertainment or making BP’s enemy win than facts). That is, unless you believe vibranium doesn’t do what every source about it says it can do. And like I said, while TM is working around it, BP can tag him with his energy daggers or claws. Nothing Taskmaster has can stand up to BP’s claws (he’d need a nonmetal that was specially made to be hard enough, and I don’t think he carries any of that around. The only person I’ve ever seen with specifically that kind of thing was Iron Man, and that was once and only because he made it so he could fight BP. ) so he’d have to avoid (since he can’t block them) every swipe BP makes. Can Taskmaster do that consistently? Can he also dodge the energy daggers consistently? And on BP’s gloves again, can TM avoid knockout gas? I guess we can assume (if you want) that Taskmaster’s mask can protect him from that, but what about if it didn’t knock him out but just pumped a dense smoke through the area? BP has good enough senses (hearing and kinesthetia would be useful there) to navigate easily through it, but Taskmaster doesn’t. Does Taskmaster have a method for dealing with these things?

Gambler says:

"The overlapping argument is pointless in my opinion. We all know Taskmaster doesn't throw a reverse elbow like U.S. Agent and then turn around and throw another reverse elbow as Elektra. Again, this is why his style of fighting IS personalized. Simply stringing any combination of styles together makes it personalized. Taskmaster DOES train, but he does it in his way. He had schools set up all over the country teaching people how to fight. Not just your random scrubs, but notable hand to hand fighters in the Marvel U. I don't know where your getting he copied the same 7 moves from 7 different people. He picks what he wants to copy, he also has photographic memory so he knows exactly what he has in his bag of tricks and what he needs or wants to add. In fact I'd say theres a greater possibility of Black Panther's skills overlapping then there is of Taskmasters. "

The overlapping point was not a major thing to me, it was really just my response to a lot of names being used to say Taskmaster wins. I used it because a list of names was put up that seemed to me like it was saying “Taskmaster is all of these great fighters together in one body”, when really, if all the fighters were all together in one body, a lot of their knowledge would be redundant. Then it got involved in our debate because it related to something you said and here we are. And again, where things overlap isn’t bad. I said that in the post you quoted, so throwing it back at BP doesn’t bring him down.

Gambler says:

"I think he would. How many possibly moves are there? How many variations has Taskmaster come across in his career? Now if its not even a style, just Black Panther fighting with his heart or emotions and not with a variation of any set style (like Deadpool did) then I agree with you. But I dont see Black Panther doing that. "

Neither of us knows the answer to those questions but I do know that TM doesn’t even know all the already known styles of fighting (not to say he may not have at least one or two moves in all of them, he might, never know, but a handful of moves is by no means representative) and BP does. So even without making stuff up, he knows more than Taskmaster. Will he use things Taskmaster doesn’t know? I can’t say. Is it possible? Yes.

Gambler says:

"Taskmaster doesn't need to come up with his own (masterpieces) as you put it. He basically has an endless supply of moves. He's fought characters with similar styles as Black Panther (Puma) being one of them. Black Panther may be a master of all forms of un-armed combat, but do you think Taskmaster has never copied the moves of a master before? I think the fact that he has fought, and watched other people besides the Marvel U characters gets overlooked, but its just as important. I have a scan where Taskmaster actually claims to have copied Spiderman's speed and agility that along with his double time speed should make him more acrobatic then BP. "

If your argument basically boils down to (and it seems to, but tell me if I’m wrong) Taskmaster knows a whole bunch of awesome moves from a whole bunch of great fighters and he can put them together is cool ways, then I don’t think that’s enough. Black Panther also knows a whole bunch of awesome moves (he’d actually know more because he knows whole entire styles instead of just a lot of moves from whichever style) and he can put them together in cool ways too (he’d be just as capable of mixing up what he knows and can even make up new moves based on the principles of a style, something TM wouldn’t know).

It’s not really that he hasn’t copied the moves of a master, I’m sure he has. It’s more that a master of a particular style of fighting would be more than just a collection of moves, they’d be someone with an understanding of the principles of that style and could recognize and counter it if were used against them and could also create never before seen moves based on what they know.

I posted why I’m not counting stuff that isn’t Marvel already. I don’t know which things are canon. But also, unless it’s from some crossover where he was in whatever other universe for a long time, he probably doesn’t have the entire repertoire of anybody. It’s not like BP would be fighting Batman (which he’d beat anyway), it’d be like fighting Taskmaster with some of Batman’s moves added to his collection. He probably has some moves here or there, but is that really a huge difference? Are the moves from other universes from fighting styles that don’t exist in the Marvel Universe? Are they better than Marvel Universe moves? If you want to bring other universes in, fine, but find out what’s canon and then let me know what he’s getting. If he spent a day with Karate Kid then that’s a major change, but if he saw Black Canary beat somebody up, that’s nothing. Get what I’m saying?

And that thing about being as fast and as agile as Spider-Man. That’s just 100% garbage. I’ve seen something similar, but if you look at what we know about the characters you can tell it’s incorrect. Taskmaster is human. He can’t copy superhuman skills and perform them at the level super humans can. Spider-Man has superhuman speed and agility. That information tells you that he can’t have Spider-Man’s agility. The only thing that could possibly contradict that is the one instance of double speed, and even that couldn’t be done for more than a few seconds and he was only going double. As for double speed in the fight, I think I brought it up before, but I don’t think it’s assured win. He’s only going to get to use it once in the fight and he has to (know to) use it in a way that lets him get through the suit (with a sword or a move that’s not a normal strike). And BP has fought people with superhuman speed so even if he gets it working right it can still be dealt with.

Static Shock says:

"I want an actual fight between the both of them that's in Volume 4 of Black Panther. That is, if Hudlin can make it interesting without hacking it."

He can't.

Moderator
#89 Posted by Static Shock (47329 posts) - - Show Bio

Buckshot says:

"Static Shock says:
"I want an actual fight between the both of them that's in Volume 4 of Black Panther. That is, if Hudlin can make it interesting without hacking it."

He can't."

LOL. Agreed. I bet Christopher Priest could do it right, though.

Gambler says:

BP and Taskmaster fought in the JLA/Avengers crossovers. #3 (2003) and #4 (2004)

I read both of those issues. T'Challa never fights Taskmaster. Batman does. There's a panel showing Batman delivering a side kick Tasky's gut. That's about it. I don't think T'Challa has ever fought Tasky, unless it was in an old Avengers comic or something. But, I seriously doubt they have ever fought.

#90 Posted by The_MVPs (84693 posts) - - Show Bio

Static Shock says:

"I read both of those issues. T'Challa never fights Taskmaster. Batman does. There's a panel showing Batman delivering a side kick Tasky's gut. That's about it. I don't think T'Challa has ever fought Tasky, unless it was in an old Avengers comic or something. But, I seriously doubt they have ever fought."

Thats what it says here, and anywhere else you wanna look it up. That Taskmaster has copied Black Panther's fighting style and he did so in those issues. I'm simply telling you whats out there.

Moderator
#91 Posted by The_MVPs (84693 posts) - - Show Bio

And as far as the bullet variation goes, didn't you look at the scan? Fallen down was not in the original move. I'm not sure where you got that from. You said Tasky didn't or couldn't make variations, and quite simply put, he can. Like in this scan. He says I think the Black Knight would do this. Maybe I'm reading it wrong, but to me that says he has some of Black Knights moves and can use them the way HE wants to. Not the way he copied them.

Here's the speed and agility scan (I'd like to point out that this is before he copied double speed)

I love this scan, "ANY MOVE I cant duplicate, I can ANTICIPATE" Even Spiderman says its like taken on all the Avengers at once.


Post Edited:2008-02-07 04:23:07

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#92 Posted by The Hellfire Club (94 posts) - - Show Bio

Double speed

#93 Posted by Buckshot (18915 posts) - - Show Bio

Gambler said:

” And as far as the bullet variation goes, didn't you look at the scan? Fallen down was not in the original move. I'm not sure where you got that from. You said Tasky didn't or couldn't make variations, and quite simply put, he can. "

He fell down after he caught the bullet. He didn’t do some trick while catching the bullet. He caught the bullet and then fell down. He didn’t change the bullet catching into something new, he just did something after it. I thought that was pretty straight forward. And if you look at my posts again you’ll see that I said he could make things up.

Buckshot said:

” Well, he can make something up but it won’t be as effective as if say, Iron Fist made something up. "

I said it a couple other times but I don’t remember where exactly. If you find where I said it you’ll see my explanation.

Gambler said:

” He says I think the Black Knight would do this. Maybe I'm reading it wrong, but to me that says he has some of Black Knights moves and can use them the way HE wants to. Not the way he copied them. "

I think you’re interpreting that wrong. He says he thinks the Black Knight would do something a certain way and then he does it. That comes off (to me anyway) as if I say “Superman is millions of times stronger and faster than Spider-Man. I think he wins.” (I’m trying to find a way to capture the tone I might use. How about, “I’m preeeeetty sure he wins.) I know for a fact he wins, but I say “I think” anyway. And the idea that Taskmaster has to actually think about it is contradicted by the very name of his power. It’s photographic “reflexes”. The skills he copies are natural to him, he doesn’t have to deliberate and really think to himself “Is that how to do a DD flip? I forget.” He just knows. In any case, he doesn’t pick and choose how he plays back the move, he does it just like Black Knight would.

Gambler said:

” Speed and agility thing. "

That doesn’t change anything. Just because there’s an image of it doesn’t make it true. We were recently discussing Vibranium, that point should be clear in your mind. Just because it gets ripped by punches in some comics doesn’t change the fact that it actually shouldn’t get ripped by punches if you look at how it’s said to actually work. Same goes for TM. If you look at how his ability works, he shouldn’t be able to copy superhuman agility at Spider-Man’s level. (If you look at the scan though, he actually says, “within limitations” so he’s not actually at his level anyway.)

Gambler said:

” I love this scan, "ANY MOVE I can duplicate, I can ANTICIPATE" Even Spiderman says its like taken on all the Avengers at once. "

Don’t know how much this matters to you, but it actually says “whatever I can’t duplicate, I can anticipate”. That’s a different meaning than the sentence you quoted. Make a point with that quote and I'll address it. And about what Spider-Man says, I have no doubt that it seems like fighting all the Avengers at once. He’s using their moves and their weapons, of course it resembles what would happen if he fought them. But being like the Avengers doesn’t make him as effective as the whole team for a number of reasons. He doesn’t have their powers (can’t grow big like Giant Man, get strong like Hulk, doesn’t have armor like Iron Man, can’t control weather like Thor, etc) and fighting him is fighting one body, not however many people there actually are. So while comparable, it’s not the same.

I hope you know I've seen these scans already. (I've even used most of them.) And I've addressed double speed at least twice since we've started.

Moderator
#94 Posted by The_MVPs (84693 posts) - - Show Bio

See, for some reason you think Taskmaster can only perform a move or style in the manner in which he saw it, and that is clearly not the case. I have scans to prove this but you said you've seen em. He does pick and choose. Its not like Black Knight only has one move he could have used in that situation.

I meant to say cant in my quote, cause it actually illustrates my point better. Any move he CANT duplicate, he CAN anticipate. Seems pretty self explanatory to me.

Yes you skimmed over double speed, but its a bigger factor then your letting on. Plus the captions add a little something. The fact that he calls it Reference materials and not videos or movies I think says something to. This is what he uses to train with and takes it very seriously.

LMAO. Of course its not the same as fighting the Avengers, the writers are trying to convey a message to the reader.

But I give up. There's nothing I'm gonna say thats going to change your mind, or vice versa.


Post Edited:2008-02-07 05:06:40

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#95 Posted by Buckshot (18915 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm just going off what I've seen, and what I've seen is that he uses moves just how he sees them. I just looked at a thing the other day where he fought DD and his copying was so exact the only thing he was doing was copying exactly what DD did right back to him after he did it first. DD flipped him, TM flipped him back. DD did a kick, TM did the same exact kick. Then there's other times where he says that he does things just like the person he stole the move from. And other times where it's explained (like the piano analogy) that he copies but doesn't create, or that copying doesn't give him knowledge of how something is done. Examples of minor variation don't change that kind of stuff. The character's whole identity is based off copying exactly how other people do things, so that's what I think he does. For the Black Knight thing, I'm not saying he only has one move. TM used a move Black Knight has (he could have picked any number of things he's seen BK do that would work there), but he did exactly what BK would do. When he copies a move, he copies a move.

So if he can't duplicate it, he can anticipate it. Does that mean if he can duplicate it he can't anticipate it? If so, he can't anticipate anything Black Panther can do since BP is not superhuman so TM is capable of duplicating his moves.

What did I miss about the double speed? Was it because I brought up its flaws that you think I skimmed over it? If you want to make a point using double speed, make it. Don't just say "He's got double speed", tell me what he'll do with it that gives him the win.

In this discussion right here, comics are reference materials. So what? And just because he takes it seriously doesn't change the points I made. If you're done that's fine, this was fun, but if you're going to go on after this, respond to my other post because there are some things in there that need addressing if you support Taskmaster. I didn't write it for nothing.
Post Edited:2008-02-07 05:22:28

Moderator
#96 Posted by The_MVPs (84693 posts) - - Show Bio

Buckshot says:

" I didn't write it for nothing."

LMFAO. Well then I guess your sh!t outta luck.

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#97 Posted by Static Shock (47329 posts) - - Show Bio

Gambler says:

"Thats what it says here, and anywhere else you wanna look it up. ThatTaskmaster has copied Black Panther's fighting style and he did so inthose issues. I'm simply telling you whats out there."

Well, don't mean to be a disappointment, but they never fought in

those issues. I just read them. They don't even focus on those two

characters. Whoever put that there is wrong on many levels, and just

wanted to make it seem like they actual fought for once. Taskmaster

wasn't even in the 3rd issue, pimptight... If you like, I can upload

both of them on Mediashare and send you the links so you can download

them. That way, you can see for yourself.
Post Edited:2008-02-07 10:52:49

#98 Posted by The_MVPs (84693 posts) - - Show Bio

I'll say it again, I'm not saying your wrong, I'm saying anywhere you LOOK IT UP it states that those are the issue where Taskmaster copied Black Panthers style.

Moderator
#99 Posted by Static Shock (47329 posts) - - Show Bio

I feel you. And, I'm saying that reference is false. :P

#100 Posted by Static Shock (47329 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump.