Black Panther vs Shang-Chi (H2H)

@Static Shock: The only edge he has above T'Challa is the fact that he's been fighting without relying on enhanced physical abilities, so he's used to it.

Judging from these past few issues T'challa has been dependent on the herb too much. Tchalla is also questioning his abilities and trying to find himself. That appears to be affecting him also. But when you have 2 opponents who are closely matched anything can turn the tables. With T'challa not been used to being 'normal' and not being confident as he usually is, Shang Chi has the clear advantage.

@Vance Astro: since you are talking about the so called lack of feats for Shang Chi, what about a depowered BP? What H2H feats have he had, SINCE BEING DEPOWERED, suggests that he can beat Shang Chi H2H? I've read all of the recent BP issues and he doesn't solely rely on his H2H skills, he had to ultimately rely on his resourcefulness & his gadgets to give himself an advantage while Shang Chi have always relied on his physical skills in a fight.

This is a strictly a H2H fight, in a dojo w/no special equipment. I highly doubt that the current BP would have beaten Vlad in the same format.

Another reason is this very debate. You are saying Iron Fist is a more skilled fighter than Shang-Chi. They are both 7's so shouldn't they be the same? Shang Chi isn't going to have as many showings as Iron FIst because he isn't as popular so if all we can go by is they are both 7's then....

I don't know if Shang-Chi is better, like I said Ive only got one comic with him in it. I am just making the point of how 7 just isn't enough with such a wide range of powers.

The time I really noticed how they did it, and got annoyed with it, was when the War of the Hulks came out, and they had specs for all the various Hulks and other characters in some of the comics. And the various gamma-radiated characters have--in my mind--some fairly different strength levels, but they were all 7s. So how does that help? Plus all the other characteristics all seemed off, like they didn't think to compare them to each other before they printed them up.

7 is actually an ideal number for rating most things--psychologists have found that we can't easily differentiate more than that number (or even 5) grades of difference between subjectively-rated criteria. But it's different when you're rating objective differences, like strength or intelligence or speed, which can in fact be rated by very specific numbers. I think a 10 point scale would be the minimum to use, but 100 would be optimal.

@Static Shock said:

@Shamelesslysupportinaznballers said:

I highly doubt that the current BP would have beaten Vlad in the same format.

T'Challa defeated Vlad in their last fight without equipment.

@Vance Astro: De powered or not, in my opinion, Shang Chi is the better fighter. Now I don't think Shang Chi is that much of a better fighter to compensate for how much faster, stronger, quicker Black Panther was before he got de powered to beat him in a fight. Just like in my opinion, BP is a better fighter than the Hulk but BP isn't going to beat down the Hulk anytime soon.

I'm going to go back and use a boxing example. Manny Pacquiao @ about 5'6" 145lbs vs Vitali Klitschko @ about 6'4" 240lbs. Some say Pacman is the best pound for pound fighter but I think Klitschko will kill him in the ring for the obvious physical advantages. Well imagine Klitschko doesn't have his physical advantages anymore, he's no longer taller, stronger or have a longer reach so whatever he has done in the past should not matter anymore because he doesnt have those advantages. Pacman will destroy this fool no questions asked.

Now that BP is de powered, which is what this fight is all about and the reason I didnt mention it, none of his previous fights when he is powered should matter when he was faster, stronger etc. Now he is on the same playing field as Shang Chi and Shang Chi is the better fighter in my opinion. And shang chi has more feats than a de powered BP.

your opinion may differ

@pooty: What did spider-man accomplish? He webbed him and Vlad escaped almost immediately. The webbing restrained him for a maximum of 1 minute at the most. Spider-man did nothing special. Brain wasn't missing on purpose he was using a pattern that T'Challa predicted than Kraven thought he was missing on purpose because brain couldn't tag black panther. If brain was missing on purpose he wouldn't have told T'Challa he was sorry. We know he isn't as impressive as before but he still has some fairly decent feats, your acting like he has done absolutely nothing noteable.

@Vance Astro said:

@Owie said:

The time I really noticed how they did it, and got annoyed with it, was when the War of the Hulks came out, and they had specs for all the various Hulks and other characters in some of the comics. And the various gamma-radiated characters have--in my mind--some fairly different strength levels, but they were all 7s. So how does that help? Plus all the other characteristics all seemed off, like they didn't think to compare them to each other before they printed them up.

7 is actually an ideal number for rating most things--psychologists have found that we can't easily differentiate more than that number (or even 5) grades of difference between subjectively-rated criteria. But it's different when you're rating objective differences, like strength or intelligence or speed, which can in fact be rated by very specific numbers. I think a 10 point scale would be the minimum to use, but 100 would be optimal.

Class 100 is as far up as the level goes because Marvel doesn't WANT you to know EXACTLY how strong their characters are because it changes drastically through the years.That would completely defeat the purpose of writing comics. Hercules and Colossus are both level 7's and strength but we know based on what is shown in the comics that Hercules is stronger. The rating system gives you a general understanding of where those characters stand as far as skills and powers.In other words Marvel is purposely NOT being specific because it limits what they can do in comics.

I agree that that's their motivation, which is just another reason why it's annoying: if they don't want us to know, don't publish it at all. I just leads to arguments like the one on this thread, because I don't think they put a lot of editorial consistency into it. I preferred the earlier version where they were less numerically explicit and just verbally descriptive, except for strength levels. I think the numbering system comes from video game culture, and is kind of pandering. But if you are going to use numbers, then use them in a way that provides some detail.

@Vance Astro said:

@Shamelesslysupportinaznballers said:

@Vance Astro: since you are talking about the so called lack of feats for Shang Chi, what about a depowered BP? What H2H feats have he had, SINCE BEING DEPOWERED, suggests that he can beat Shang Chi H2H? I've read all of the recent BP issues and he doesn't solely rely on his H2H skills, he had to ultimately rely on his resourcefulness & his gadgets to give himself an advantage while Shang Chi have always relied on his physical skills in a fight.

This is a strictly a H2H fight, in a dojo w/no special equipment. I highly doubt that the current BP would have beaten Vlad in the same format.

You didn't say since being depowered. You simply said that he was a better fighter than Black Panther.You can bold it and caps lock it now in this response but you didn't say it before which is why I responded how I did.

@Valkaad said:

Another reason is this very debate. You are saying Iron Fist is a more skilled fighter than Shang-Chi. They are both 7's so shouldn't they be the same? Shang Chi isn't going to have as many showings as Iron FIst because he isn't as popular so if all we can go by is they are both 7's then....

I don't know if Shang-Chi is better, like I said Ive only got one comic with him in it. I am just making the point of how 7 just isn't enough with such a wide range of powers.

They aren't both 7's though so your point is invalid. Also most of the 7's have been dropped down in more recent versions but Shang Chi was NEVER a 7 as far as i've seen.

@Owie said:

The time I really noticed how they did it, and got annoyed with it, was when the War of the Hulks came out, and they had specs for all the various Hulks and other characters in some of the comics. And the various gamma-radiated characters have--in my mind--some fairly different strength levels, but they were all 7s. So how does that help? Plus all the other characteristics all seemed off, like they didn't think to compare them to each other before they printed them up.

7 is actually an ideal number for rating most things--psychologists have found that we can't easily differentiate more than that number (or even 5) grades of difference between subjectively-rated criteria. But it's different when you're rating objective differences, like strength or intelligence or speed, which can in fact be rated by very specific numbers. I think a 10 point scale would be the minimum to use, but 100 would be optimal.

Class 100 is as far up as the level goes because Marvel doesn't WANT you to know EXACTLY how strong their characters are because it changes drastically through the years.That would completely defeat the purpose of writing comics. Hercules and Colossus are both level 7's and strength but we know based on what is shown in the comics that Hercules is stronger. The rating system gives you a general understanding of where those characters stand as far as skills and powers.In other words Marvel is purposely NOT being specific because it limits what they can do in comics.

My point is invalid?? Do you mean my point about Shang-chi vs BP? If that is what you mean then I have said that I don't know anything about Shang-Chi (I got that he was a 7 from the OHOTHMU online) If they aren't both 7's then I guess that website is incorrect. I am basing my opinion of who wins solely on reading this thread. The people arguing for Shang-chi have a stronger argument in my opinion.

If you mean my point is invalid about 7 not being a great enough scale then please see my other post about str lvl 4 being 800lbs-25 tons. spd lvl 5 being Mach 2 - 17000mph. A person 62.5 times stronger than another person should not be in the same category.

@Owie said:

@Vance Astro said:

@Owie said:

The time I really noticed how they did it, and got annoyed with it, was when the War of the Hulks came out, and they had specs for all the various Hulks and other characters in some of the comics. And the various gamma-radiated characters have--in my mind--some fairly different strength levels, but they were all 7s. So how does that help? Plus all the other characteristics all seemed off, like they didn't think to compare them to each other before they printed them up.

7 is actually an ideal number for rating most things--psychologists have found that we can't easily differentiate more than that number (or even 5) grades of difference between subjectively-rated criteria. But it's different when you're rating objective differences, like strength or intelligence or speed, which can in fact be rated by very specific numbers. I think a 10 point scale would be the minimum to use, but 100 would be optimal.

Class 100 is as far up as the level goes because Marvel doesn't WANT you to know EXACTLY how strong their characters are because it changes drastically through the years.That would completely defeat the purpose of writing comics. Hercules and Colossus are both level 7's and strength but we know based on what is shown in the comics that Hercules is stronger. The rating system gives you a general understanding of where those characters stand as far as skills and powers.In other words Marvel is purposely NOT being specific because it limits what they can do in comics.

I agree that that's their motivation, which is just another reason why it's annoying: if they don't want us to know, don't publish it at all. I just leads to arguments like the one on this thread, because I don't think they put a lot of editorial consistency into it. I preferred the earlier version where they were less numerically explicit and just verbally descriptive, except for strength levels. I think the numbering system comes from video game culture, and is kind of pandering. But if you are going to use numbers, then use them in a way that provides some detail.

Agreed.

@jashro44: Spiderman didn't do anything special. He atleast slowed Vlad down which BP didn't do for four issues. And no BP has no decent feats yet. He has not beaten or even engaged anyone worth mentioning. I have been reading Secret Avengers with Shang Chi in it and he looks WAY more skilled than Tchalla does. But i think that's the point. The writers want us to see Tchalla at his worst until he gets his "mojo" back. I think we will see Tchalla looking like his old self soon. But as of now he has shown me nothing.

@pooty:He beat Luke Cage and he did considerably well against Kraven. Those are fairly impressive feats worth mentioning. I don't know much about shang chi so I will take your word he is better at the moment but Black panther has done things that are pretty decent.

I agree that that's their motivation, which is just another reason why it's annoying: if they don't want us to know, don't publish it at all. I just leads to arguments like the one on this thread, because I don't think they put a lot of editorial consistency into it. I preferred the earlier version where they were less numerically explicit and just verbally descriptive, except for strength levels. I think the numbering system comes from video game culture, and is kind of pandering. But if you are going to use numbers, then use them in a way that provides some detail.

@Valkaad

My point is invalid?? Do you mean my point about Shang-chi vs BP? If that is what you mean then I have said that I don't know anything about Shang-Chi (I got that he was a 7 from the OHOTHMU online) If they aren't both 7's then I guess that website is incorrect. I am basing my opinion of who wins solely on reading this thread. The people arguing for Shang-chi have a stronger argument in my opinion.

If you mean my point is invalid about 7 not being a great enough scale then please see my other post about str lvl 4 being 800lbs-25 tons. spd lvl 5 being Mach 2 - 17000mph. A person 62.5 times stronger than another person should not be in the same category.

@Vance Astro: De powered or not, in my opinion, Shang Chi is the better fighter. Now I don't think Shang Chi is that much of a better fighter to compensate for how much faster, stronger, quicker Black Panther was before he got de powered to beat him in a fight. Just like in my opinion, BP is a better fighter than the Hulk but BP isn't going to beat down the Hulk anytime soon.

I'm going to go back and use a boxing example. Manny Pacquiao @ about 5'6" 145lbs vs Vitali Klitschko @ about 6'4" 240lbs. Some say Pacman is the best pound for pound fighter but I think Klitschko will kill him in the ring for the obvious physical advantages. Well imagine Klitschko doesn't have his physical advantages anymore, he's no longer taller, stronger or have a longer reach so whatever he has done in the past should not matter anymore because he doesnt have those advantages. Pacman will destroy this fool no questions asked.

Now that BP is de powered, which is what this fight is all about and the reason I didnt mention it, none of his previous fights when he is powered should matter when he was faster, stronger etc. Now he is on the same playing field as Shang Chi and Shang Chi is the better fighter in my opinion. And shang chi has more feats than a de powered BP.

your opinion may differ

@jashro44: Luke was not fighting back. Luke didn't understand what was going on and didn't try to hit tchalla once. Tchalla thought Luke was attacking him(though he wasn't) and put him down with some nerve hits. So it was a fight but not a fair fight.

Also Kraven hit Tchalla with that neuro dart and threw him off the bridge into the water. If Storm didn't catch him AND give him the cure Tchalla may have drowned. So storm saved him.

If you can find some Secret Avengers with Shang Chi in it, i think you'll like what you see :)

@pooty: Taking Luke cage down is still impressive regardless. The guy has tanked hits from gunfire, carnage, iron fist, etc.

T'Challa was trying to help a man and got suckered punch by Kraven off the bridge. Him getting tagged by a dart doesn't mean the showing was unimpressive he managed to outmaneuver a super human while drugged (He only ran away because Kraven had the real tracking device to find brain and he needed a way to find brain).

@Vance Astro: I don't know what else to say to you bro. Just reread the boxing & Hulk example.

@Vance Astro: I don't know what else to say to you bro. Just reread the boxing & Hulk example.

@jashro44: Spiderman didn't do anything special. He atleast slowed Vlad down which BP didn't do for four issues.

@Static Shock: I don't understand how slowing someone down for a few seconds means anything

BP had been sucking so bad that what spiderman did looked almost impressive

BP had been sucking so bad that what spiderman did looked almost impressive

@Static Shock: You act like Spider-Man actually defeated Vlad or something.

You act like this thread is still worth discussing. It's not. Good day/night.

You act like this thread is still worth discussing. It's not. Good day/night.

@Static Shock said:

@pooty said:

You act like this thread is still worth discussing. It's not. Good day/night.

Considering the posts you made up to this point, you obviously think the same thing.

OWND!

I tell it like it is. 

@Static Shock said:

I tell it like it is.

What people do not know is that I am your alt account.

@Static Shock said:

@Erik: LOL. Now they know.

Damn! Me and our big mouth.

Just a FYI, Flag of Our Fathers is non-cannon. Also T'challa is currently Peak Human in Man without Fear/Most Dangerous Man Alive without enhancements from the HSH.

Panther FTW considering the fact that he knows a lot of different fighting styles, and shang chi only now's one

@pooty: But T'challa took Vlad down in issue 518, not Spidey. Vlad is suppose to be cap level, yet T'challa says he is still peak human...and showed himself to be more then a match physically verses Vlad.

Recently he totally owns Hunter the White Wolf, Lady Bullseye [he was Spider'd up though] and American Panther. He also nerve strikes Luke Cage and paralyzed him.

I think he would be more then a match for Shang. Remember, he had to pass Ascension by besting the best Wakanda warriors all at once, including Zuri, King T'chaka best friend and closest warrior...Zuri has insane strength [but unconfirmed]...Feat wise, Zuri was Strong enough to pick up the back of a moving car with people in it and T'challa defeated him with 5 other trained warriors.

@Umbraa: Vlad may be Cap level physically but even current Tchalla isn't too far behind that. But skill wise Vlad is a no name so BP beating him after quite a few issues isn't a good look for him. He did take down American Panther who also has no feats. I also have seen no feats for WHite Wolf. He beat Lady Bullseye with additonal spider powers(though i believe current regular tchalla could do that. And everyone he faced in his ascension has no feats either. Classic Tchalla could beat SHang Chi..... just barely in my eyes. He has not shown me to be on that level recently. They want to show tchalla being down and moving back up. And his feats and opponents are getting better. But he's not going to become "Classic Tchalla" over night.

Does Black Panther get his serum???

No.

@Umbraa: Where was it confirmed that Flags of our Fathers is non-canon? Did Hudlin say that himself? If so, do you have a link to confirm this? To my understanding, it's a retelling of Captain America's involvement in WWII along with Black Panther and Wakanda.

Also, Lady Bullseye was doped up on Spider-Powers, too. To what extent is unknown.

I say Shang-Chi. He is a way better martial artist. Without his equipment it would be difficult for T'Challa.

@_slim_: Then I say Shang Chi.If he got the serum then BP takes this easy.

@Umbraa: That...sucks... I'm assuming you emailed him or something?

I mean, Flags of Our Fathers was a good read, and it justfied Azzari's meeting with Cap during WWII. I thought it was a retcon, at first.

FYI, I'm not arguing for anyone to win, just trying to correct a few misconceptions in my opinion. I still think that it would be a good fight. T'challa is still faster/stronger/etc...

In fact, in the New Villains for hire 0.1, he takes on a highly upgraded Stilt Man [actually a woman] and owns her. 99% of her body is metal...and he totally knows the crap out of her. Before that, he then cases a moving Train and jumps through it window.

After beating Stilt man, he tracks using his scenes...apparently they are peak human also. Which leads to taking on a huge monster, before Hellstorm shows up to help.During that, he was fast enough to dodge it's blast.

Shang has some very impressive stuff from SA. Especially the last arc. So it would be a good fight.

@Umbraa: There was nothing skill wise..wrong with T'challa. But his head was just not in it and he was also dealing with coming off Doomwar.

That is where i think Tchalla is "Depowered" most.... his soul. Once he gets his head back in the game he will be back on top.

This is where you are totally wrong. White Wolf is a master fighter on par with his brother.

I didn't say "White Wolf" has no feats." I said I have not seen them. I must have missed those issues where they fought.

Static, already mentioned that Lady Bullseyes was Spidered up also. T'challa straight owned her.

The spider powers are different for everyone. They all get different strength, agility and sometimes multiple arms. Nevertheless beating her is no big deal. No one thinks of her as top tier atleast not me.

The thing is, the whole point of MWF was having him deal with the fallout and taking away some things to see him in action.

Exactly. Tchalla is away from his country, tech, wife etc. Just lost all vibranium in Wakanda. That is why he is depowered. Not just physically. His soul and body are not one. And to beat Shang Chi he needs his confidence back.

T'challa is still faster/stronger/etc

Not sure about that.

I think Shang Chi has to be 100%(physical,mentally, emotionally) to beat shang chi. And he is not

I can't post my own pics either. but when you click "image" then click "search site" those will post. THanks for your input

@Umbraa: I think it was stated that White Wolf mastered deadly combat at the age of six. But, at that same time, he doesn't really have any feats. The fight he had with T'Challa wasn't much of a physical fight. Most of the time, they were dodging explosions and shooting at each other.

The fact that T'Challa was able to defeat him so easily in MDMA doesn't make a lot of sense. I'm not arguing against it, because what happens happens. You would think that because T'Challa is depowered than White Wolf would have a much better chance against him. -_-

I went into that book, willing to see an even fight, at least.

@Umbraa: I just PMed Hudlin at Hudlin Entertainment. He stated taht Flags of Our Fathers is canon 'because he said so.' O_O

He stated taht Flags of Our Fathers is canon 'because he said so.' O_O

@Morpheus_: I was more than willing to take Hudlin's word over Brevoort's, but the latter is the editor, you know?

@pooty: The spider powers aren't really all that different. I never noticed any one with different spider-powers they all seemed to be the same to me. The only one that had different spider-powers was kaine but he was a the 2nd most powerful mutant the queen had before falling into the batch of the cure he could still have been more powerful than the average mutant. The extra arms is just the 2nd stage of the infection and T'challa never took advantage of them in the fight against lady bullseye.

@Umbraa said:

FYI, I'm not arguing for anyone to win, just trying to correct a few misconceptions in my opinion. I still think that it would be a good fight. T'challa is still faster/stronger/etc...

In fact, in the New Villains for hire 0.1, he takes on a highly upgraded Stilt Man [actually a woman] and owns her. 99% of her body is metal...and he totally knows the crap out of her. Before that, he then cases a moving Train and jumps through it window.

After beating Stilt man, he tracks using his scenes...apparently they are peak human also. Which leads to taking on a huge monster, before Hellstorm shows up to help.During that, he was fast enough to dodge it's blast.

Shang has some very impressive stuff from SA. Especially the last arc. So it would be a good fight.

Can I see scans of the black panther owning in villains for hire? Please? Its not that I don't believe you I just really want to see the scans.

@jashro44: Current Tchalla could beat Classic Lady Bullseye. To me thats not saying much. I don't think anyone considers her a top tier fighter.

is talking about Shang Chi feats in Villains for Hire?????? No matter who it is i would like to see it.

@Static Shock Yeah, I asked the same thing to Hudlin and Brevoort. But Brevoort is more then just a editor, he is Senior Vice President of Publishing at Marvel. So what he says pretty much goes. @jashro44: I would post them, but nothing shows. @pooty: Not sure about that.[ T'challa is still faster/stronger/etc.] Unless Shang is consider High Peak Human...they you are wrong sir. T'challa is currenly Peak Human via training like Batman. Shange is a Superb Athlete. The thing with the Panther is that Marvel is doing what I have been saying all along, the HSH makes him above-peak human/enhanced human, similar to how he is on the Avengers:EMH and Ironman:Armored Adventures shows, and possibly the movies [Avengers 2 and Black Panther film]. Skill wise they are a match, but T'challa is still faster/stronger/agile...unless Shang is also consider High Peak Human. I can confirm that T'challa is...can you do the same for Shang?

@pooty: T'challa is taking on Lady Bullseye, T.Mary and the Hand alone. Lady Bullseye is suppose to be one of the top assassins cannon-wise in MU. She has also been noted to be faster then Bullseye and she is also a master of Martial arts.

What I'm saying is your point is kind of moot, since the issue you bring up are over. He is back soul wise and mentally. That's why the moved to the "Most Dangerous Man" tag for the title.