Black Panther vs Shang-Chi (H2H)

@Vance Astro said:

@weaponmaster said:

No. his stats are not below most street levelers that are unenhanced. you are mamking that up.

Wrong. You are not aware of how Iron fists recieved the "Iron Fist". it is and energy source he gained from the brazier.

No. His speed , durability, and pain tolerance were garnered through intensive kung fu training.

Yes they are.His actual stats are "athlete" level. He's not enhanced,he's not peak human.His feats are based on chi manipulation not his own physical ability. I know how Iron Fist is able to use the Iron Fist.His encounter with Shou-Lao allowed him to manipulate his chi and unlock his own natural abilities.

This still does not make him lower than most street level fighters. perhaps some, but not most. Shang chis feats are based on his training and physical abilities. Iron fist recieved the energies from the brazier than contained Shou-laos energies.

The instance where he fought T'chaka and lost. If i remember correctly T'chaka stated that it was because of caps inexperience. proving that you were in error and experience plays a part in comics sometimes. I am certain there are other cases.

@Vance Astro said:

@weaponmaster said:

The instance where he fought T'chaka and lost. If i remember correctly T'chaka stated that it was because of caps inexperience. proving that you were in error and experience plays a part in comics sometimes. I am certain there are other cases.

I don't remember him ever beating T'Chaka which is why I am asking which instance? Either way if you want to say that experience did play apart there it doesn't mean that it will here. T'Chaka was fighting a young Captain America.Shang Chi is fighting a Black Panther who himself has plenty experience.

You are becoming confused. I stated that Cap lost toT'chaka because of his inexperience. Yes, that was my point, it was a young, inexperienced Cap, so experience indeed played a part in comics. my point was that Shang Chi has more experience fighting without enhancements than Black panther does giving him a slight edge. BP has only just recently began fighting again without the enhancements of the Heart of Wakanda (he did so when he was young but that was a long time ago). Shang has been fighting un-enhanced his whole life.

You are becoming confused. I stated that Cap lost toT'chaka because of his inexperience. Yes, that was my point, it was a young, inexperienced Cap, so experience indeed played a part in comics. my point was that Shang Chi has more experience fighting without enhancements than Black panther does giving him a slight edge. BP has only just recently began fighting again without the enhancements of the Heart of Wakanda (he did so when he was young but that was a long time ago). Shang has been fighting un-enhanced his whole life.

This still does not make him lower than most street level fighters.

This still does not make him lower than most street level fighters. perhaps some, but not most. Shang chis feats are based on his training and physical abilities. Iron fist recieved the energies from the brazier than contained Shou-laos energies.

@Vance Astro said:

@weaponmaster said:

You are becoming confused. I stated that Cap lost toT'chaka because of his inexperience. Yes, that was my point, it was a young, inexperienced Cap, so experience indeed played a part in comics. my point was that Shang Chi has more experience fighting without enhancements than Black panther does giving him a slight edge. BP has only just recently began fighting again without the enhancements of the Heart of Wakanda (he did so when he was young but that was a long time ago). Shang has been fighting un-enhanced his whole life.

I'm not becoming confused.I don't know what about my post suggested I am.I was asking which depiction of the fight you were talking about because there are several and you said "the one where T'chaka beat him", which I thought was all of them.I'm sure the dialouge wasn't exactly the same though.I'm agreeing that experience may have played a part in that fight but we're talking about a different margin or experience between T'Chaka and Cap as opposed to Shang Chi and T'Challa.Black Panther's skills aren't based on whether he is enhanced or not and Shang Chi isn't his physical superior so i'm not understanding why using current T'Challa changes anything when as far as skill showings are concerned Black Panther would still be the better fighter but a good margin.

"The one where T'chaka defeated him" meant all of them. i was being facetious. I did not realize that you were being so as well and apparently you didn't realize i was being facetious either. I fully realize that he lost to T'chaka in every iteration.

Well. you stated that experience has never factored into the comic books. i don't see you agreeing with me that it has until now.

Yes we are talking about a different margin which is the reason i noly gave Shang chi a slight edge and stated that the margin was 6/10 (see how slight that is?)

I am using experience as a factor because BP has not been fighting without his enhancements very long while Shang chi has only ever fought without enhancements. BP has not had as much experience fighting with his slower speed, lesser agility, and lower strength. His skills aren't based on his enhancement but his experience figthing without those enhancements is.

"The one where T'chaka defeated him" meant all of them. i was being facetious. I did not realize that you were being so as well and apparently you didn't realize i was being facetious either. I fully realize that he lost to T'chaka in every iteration.

Well. you stated that experience has never factored into the comic books. i don't see you agreeing with me that it has until now.

Yes we are talking about a different margin which is the reason i noly gave Shang chi a slight edge and stated that the margin was 6/10 (see how slight that is?)

I am using experience as a factor because BP has not been fighting without his enhancements very long while Shang chi has only ever fought without enhancements. BP has not had as much experience fighting with his slower speed, lesser agility, and lower strength. His skills aren't based on his enhancement but his experience figthing without those enhancements is.

giving it to my man chi. he has far better control of his body. and better skill. i saw him an issue of heroes for hire he took a punch from someone really powerful (name escapes me now) with his palms and he redirected all the pain through his whole body. all his body was bruised and he still beat him. THAT is impressive.

@Vance Astro said:

@weaponmaster said:

This still does not make him lower than most street level fighters.

You wanna bet? I can't think of any that aren't women....

@weaponmaster said:

This still does not make him lower than most street level fighters. perhaps some, but not most. Shang chis feats are based on his training and physical abilities. Iron fist recieved the energies from the brazier than contained Shou-laos energies.

Shang Chi's feats are based on manipulation of chi through Kung-Fu training.

This is an explanation of Iron Fist's powers.

if you can't think of any other than women then you are not trying very hard.

Shang Chis feats are based on kung fu skill and training.

Iron fist garnered his "iron fist' ability supernaturally by pressing the brazier to his chest granting him superhuman/supernatural energies and power of Shou-lao which is why his energies glow and do the damage that they do.

@Vance Astro said:

@weaponmaster said:

"The one where T'chaka defeated him" meant all of them. i was being facetious. I did not realize that you were being so as well and apparently you didn't realize i was being facetious either. I fully realize that he lost to T'chaka in every iteration.

Well. you stated that experience has never factored into the comic books. i don't see you agreeing with me that it has until now.

Yes we are talking about a different margin which is the reason i noly gave Shang chi a slight edge and stated that the margin was 6/10 (see how slight that is?)

I am using experience as a factor because BP has not been fighting without his enhancements very long while Shang chi has only ever fought without enhancements. BP has not had as much experience fighting with his slower speed, lesser agility, and lower strength. His skills aren't based on his enhancement but his experience figthing without those enhancements is.

"Experience never plays a part in comics" was an exaggeration based on the fact that Marvel's most popular heroes have all existed since before I was even born and the fact that there are many characters who have an abstract # of years of experience because of not aging or slowed aging or retcons or whatever who aren't as skilled as many of Marvel's street levelers which is where most (and I mean a literal most) of the fighting talent resides.I don't see Shang Chi beating Black Panther 6 times just because he's no longer enhanced.

Oh so now it's an exaggeration? Doubtful. You were simply in error and made a statement that wasn't factual. there is no dishonor in being wrong.

Your proselytizing diatribe just seems to me like rationalizations in an attempt to avoid admitting that you were in error.

6/10 means that BP wins 4 times Shang chi wins 6 time and is meant to infer a slight edge just as 5/10 denotes equality. Just because you personally don't see it does not mean that hypothetically it is not feasible. People cling to their battle choices often times for reasons that have more to do with pride or emotion or other factors and nothing to do with logic and reason.

Shang Chis feats are based on kung fu skill and training.

Iron fist garnered his "iron fist' ability supernaturally by pressing the brazier to his chest granting him superhuman/supernatural energies and power of Shou-lao which is why his energies glow and do the damage that they do.

Oh so now it's an exaggeration? Doubtful. You were simply in error and made a statement that wasn't factual. there is no dishonor in being wrong.

Your proselytizing diatribe just seems to me like rationalizations in an attempt to avoid admitting that you were in error.

6/10 means that BP wins 4 times Shang chi wins 6 time and is meant to infer a slight edge just as 5/10 denotes equality. Just because you personally don't see it does not mean that hypothetically it is not feasible. People cling to their battle choices often times for reasons that have more to do with pride or emotion or other factors and nothing to do with logic and reason.

@Vance Astro said:

@weaponmaster said:

Shang Chis feats are based on kung fu skill and training.

If you mean his skill feats then yes they are.If you mean his feats that involve strength or durability then no they aren't.

@weaponmaster said:

Iron fist garnered his "iron fist' ability supernaturally by pressing the brazier to his chest granting him superhuman/supernatural energies and power of Shou-lao which is why his energies glow and do the damage that they do.

Iron Fist may have been a bad example of someone who uses chi for superhuman showings but Shang Chi does use chi to help him achieve certain results.You can't tell me that someone who took hits from Hiroim just did it because they can.Chi was involved.

All of his feats are because of kung fu training.

You were simply wrong that irons fists energies and Shang Chis kung fu training were identical.

His chi-kung was involved.

To my surprise Shang doesn't mention anything about Chi when talking about how he survived a blow from Hiroim.
 

All of his feats are because of kung fu training.

You were simply wrong that irons fists energies and Shang Chis kung fu training were identical.

To my surprise Shang doesn't mention anything about Chi when talking about how he survived a blow from Hiroim.

@Vance Astro said:

@weaponmaster said:

Oh so now it's an exaggeration? Doubtful. You were simply in error and made a statement that wasn't factual. there is no dishonor in being wrong.

Your proselytizing diatribe just seems to me like rationalizations in an attempt to avoid admitting that you were in error.

6/10 means that BP wins 4 times Shang chi wins 6 time and is meant to infer a slight edge just as 5/10 denotes equality. Just because you personally don't see it does not mean that hypothetically it is not feasible. People cling to their battle choices often times for reasons that have more to do with pride or emotion or other factors and nothing to do with logic and reason.

I was basing what I said on the fact that characters like The Champion of the Universe,Gamora,Ares,Hercules,Thor etc. who have alot more experience than many of the most skilled characters in Marvel doesn't have the feats to suggest they are on the same level as them.Or that someone like Wolverine whom has more experience than someone like Daredevil is only more skilled because of his level of training and not how much time he spent training and even though DD didn't even finish his training and hasn't been training as long they are still very close in terms of skill. I know what 6/10 means.My points don't have anything to do with pride or emotion.I just personally don't understand how all of Black Panther's advantages are lessened significantly to the point Black Panther would lose to majority to Shang Chi when his downgrade in physical attributes if slight.

You stated that experience has never played a part in comics. You were simply wrong. Period.

BP has not had nearly as much time fighting as a normal human as Shang Chi has. BP is used to being faster, stronger, and more agile while fighting. A few months is not nearly long enough to get used to your lack off attributes and adjust and become as proficient a fighter as he was. it will take time and experience. And i Stated that Shang chi had a slight advantage and a slight majority. 6/10 denotes a slight majority. His downgrade in physical enhancements is not slight, it is significant.

BP also pretty much stated that in martial arts circles Shang chi was considered the best but i still give Shang chi only a slight majority.

@Vance Astro said:

@weaponmaster said:

All of his feats are because of kung fu training.

He learned to manipulate chi through Kung Fu training so year you're right.

@weaponmaster said:

You were simply wrong that irons fists energies and Shang Chis kung fu training were identical.

They both manipulate chi for results that are beyond their normal physical ability.

He learned chi kung through kung fu training.

No. Shang chi does not manipulate chi beyond his normal physical ability and Iron fist manipulates power/energy that was gleaned from Shou-lao via the brazier tranferring said energies.

No. Shang chi does not manipulate chi beyond his normal physical ability 

@Vance Astro said:

@weaponmaster said:

No. Shang chi does not manipulate chi beyond his normal physical ability

How do you explain his feats then?* His normal physical ability isn't superhuman but he has feats that he would have to be superhuman to pull off without the use of chi.*

*See Batman.

@Vance Astro said:

@weaponmaster said:

No. Shang chi does not manipulate chi beyond his normal physical ability

How do you explain his feats then?* His normal physical ability isn't superhuman but he has feats that he would have to be superhuman to pull off without the use of chi.*

*See Batman.

@Vance Astro said:

@weaponmaster said:

@Vance Astro said:

@weaponmaster said:

No. Shang chi does not manipulate chi beyond his normal physical ability

How do you explain his feats then?* His normal physical ability isn't superhuman but he has feats that he would have to be superhuman to pull off without the use of chi.*

*See Batman.

Batman is on the same physical level as Captain America.Shang Chi isn't.

Batman is a human being with only training who has feats that appear superhuman.

You stated that experience has never played a part in comics. You were simply wrong. Period.

BP has not had nearly as much time fighting as a normal human as Shang Chi has. BP is used to being faster, stronger, and more agile while fighting. A few months is not nearly long enough to get used to your lack off attributes and adjust and become as proficient a fighter as he was. it will take time and experience. And i Stated that Shang chi had a slight advantage and a slight majority. 6/10 denotes a slight majority. His downgrade in physical enhancements is not slight, it is significant.

BP also pretty much stated that in martial arts circles Shang chi was considered the best but i still give Shang chi only a slight majority.

Batman is a human being with only training who has feats that appear superhuman.

@Vance Astro said:

@weaponmaster said: .

You stated that experience has never played a part in comics. You were simply wrong. Period.

BP has not had nearly as much time fighting as a normal human as Shang Chi has. BP is used to being faster, stronger, and more agile while fighting. A few months is not nearly long enough to get used to your lack off attributes and adjust and become as proficient a fighter as he was. it will take time and experience. And i Stated that Shang chi had a slight advantage and a slight majority. 6/10 denotes a slight majority. His downgrade in physical enhancements is not slight, it is significant.

BP also pretty much stated that in martial arts circles Shang chi was considered the best but i still give Shang chi only a slight majority.

If it actually matters.I will concede that I made an error in saying that. Back on topic, I know that BP hasn't had as much time fighting as a normal human as Shang Chi has but what i'm wondering is their and instance in his comics since he has been downgraded where his new attributes have shown to be a major blow to his ability in combat?

Well, without concession, it becomes a circular argument and, to me, it makes battling pointless if there is no victor.

No there is no instance of a major blow to his combat ability but we can all extrapolate that he would not be as formidable as when he was enhanced. There is also no instance where he and Shang Chi have fought since he lost his enhancements either so we must speculate/extrapolate/postulate.

@Fluke-buddha said:

To my surprise Shang doesn't mention anything about Chi when talking about how he survived a blow from Hiroim.

Characters don't mention how they are able to do things every time they do them.They just do it.

@Vance Astro said:

@weaponmaster said:

Batman is a human being with only training who has feats that appear superhuman.

Batman by Marvel's standards IS superhuman.

No. Batman, by Marvel standards, is peak human.

My point is and was that batman and Shang Chi are simply trained humans. In comics many normal peoples feats seem superhuman.

No. Batman, by Marvel standards, is peak human.

My point is and was that batman and Shang Chi are simply trained humans. In comics many normal peoples feats seem superhuman.

In this case he did mention how he did it...

@Vance Astro said:

@weaponmaster said:

No. Batman, by Marvel standards, is peak human.

My point is and was that batman and Shang Chi are simply trained humans. In comics many normal peoples feats seem superhuman.

1.Actually Batman feat wise (Not including anything PIS) is nearly identical to Captain America and I know that several sources state that Cap is peak human but the Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe has rankings based on #'s, and if you look at strength for instance Cap's strength is ranked a 4 which is superhuman.Superhuman under that rating is stated as lifting anywhere between 800lbs & 25 tons.Both characters have pressed well over 800lbs.Supposing we dismiss that as a source and simply say Cap and Batman are peak human.Their feats match what peak humans in comics can do.Thus that would suggest they can do those things because they are peak human in their actual physical strength. 2.I know what you're point it but what I'm trying to tell you is that Batman's feats are identical to his actual physical level.Shang Chi's are not as he is far weaker in the area of strength and durability than is presented in his feats.

Batman's abilities come from training only. he is not a mutant nor has he been artificially enhanced in any way. he is not a superhuman.

Wait. So your saying that batman is superhumanly strong yet his feats are identical to his actual, non-enhanced, physical level? You're contradicting yourself.

Obviously Shang chi is not far weaker in the area of strength and durability than is presented in his feats as the examples are presented in his feats.

Many normal characters physical feats seem superhuman.

Batman's abilities come from training only. he is not a mutant nor has he been artificially enhanced in any way. he is not a superhuman.

Wait. So your saying that batman is superhumanly strong yet his feats are identical to his actual, non-enhanced, physical level? You're contradicting yourself.

Obviously Shang chi is not far weaker in the area of strength and durability than is presented in his feats as the examples are presented in his feats.

Many normal characters physical feats seem superhuman.

You asked how Shang Chi has feats that seem superhumanhuman so i stated *"see Batman".. What is irrelevent is everything that you stated after that. Many non-enhanced humans show feats that seem superhuman. There is your answer and you were again mistaken by stating that Shang chis feats make him enhanced. All esle from you on this issue is a tex-based smoke screen

As I have stated many times it is because of his kung fu training. batman studied kung fu, Shang Chi is a master of it hence his iron palm and iron fist training a nd body mehcanics are superior to batmans which allows him to strike harder even though he is not as strong. Just as a trained iron palm master in real life can shatter 10 bricks or more while someone who has merely trained in Iron Palm and powerlifts cannot break as many bricks. It is training, chi-kung, and technique. As I stated before he also used advanced chi-kung techniques. these techniques harden the body and make it resistant to damage/pain and he also rolls with blows via kung fu techniques. Those are the explanations. Chi enhancement is neither the only explanation nor is it the actual explanation. it is technique, training, and body conditioning that explain these feats. Striking power is a mixture of speed and strength and technique, not simply strength alone.

he lost.

I don't remember him ever beating T'Chaka which is why I am asking which instance? 

You asked how Shang Chi has feats that seem superhuman human so i stated *"see Batman".. What is irrelevent is everything that you stated after that. Many non-enhanced humans show feats that seem superhuman. There is your answer and you were again mistaken by stating that Shang chis feats make him enhanced. All esle from you on this issue is a tex-based smoke screen

As I have stated many times it is because of his kung fu training. batman studied kung fu, Shang Chi is a master of it hence his iron palm and iron fist training a nd body mehcanics are superior to batmans which allows him to strike harder even though he is not as strong. Just as a trained iron palm master in real life can shatter 10 bricks or more while someone who has merely trained in Iron Palm and powerlifts cannot break as many bricks. It is training, chi-kung, and technique. As I stated before he also used advanced chi-kung techniques. these techniques harden the body and make it resistant to damage/pain and he also rolls with blows via kung fu techniques. Those are the explanations. Chi enhancement is neither the only explanation nor is it the actual explanation. it is technique, training, and body conditioning that explain these feats. Striking power is a mixture of speed and strength and technique, not simply strength alone.

I originally agreed that BP being depowered would not make much of a difference. But ever since he has been in Hell's Kitchen(depowered) he not only has lost strength, stamina etc but he doesn't seem as skilled. He also doesn't have that "i'm 10 steps ahead of you" feel to him. He seems lost and confused. Maybe thats the way they are writing him to show his struggle to get back to the way he was. IDK. As far as this fight. From what i've seen of him in Hells Kitchen being depowered i give it to Shang 6/10.

Nice match and good arguments for both. I'm leaning toward BP for a slight majority.

@Static Shock said:

@weaponmaster said:

he lost.

In Flags of Our Fathers #1, that fight was actually retconned to be a stalemate by Reggie Hudlin. It was Azzari that Cap fought, and T'Chaka was featured in the book as Azzari's son.

Ah. Thank you. I was one generation off. Thank you for the clarification.

What is Black Panthers best feat?

@Vance Astro said:

@weaponmaster said:

You asked how Shang Chi has feats that seem superhuman human so i stated *"see Batman".. What is irrelevent is everything that you stated after that. Many non-enhanced humans show feats that seem superhuman. There is your answer and you were again mistaken by stating that Shang chis feats make him enhanced. All esle from you on this issue is a tex-based smoke screen

As I have stated many times it is because of his kung fu training. batman studied kung fu, Shang Chi is a master of it hence his iron palm and iron fist training a nd body mehcanics are superior to batmans which allows him to strike harder even though he is not as strong. Just as a trained iron palm master in real life can shatter 10 bricks or more while someone who has merely trained in Iron Palm and powerlifts cannot break as many bricks. It is training, chi-kung, and technique. As I stated before he also used advanced chi-kung techniques. these techniques harden the body and make it resistant to damage/pain and he also rolls with blows via kung fu techniques. Those are the explanations. Chi enhancement is neither the only explanation nor is it the actual explanation. it is technique, training, and body conditioning that explain these feats. Striking power is a mixture of speed and strength and technique, not simply strength alone.

I guess anything seems irrelevant when you clearly didn't understand it.Nothing related to Batman helps explain Shang Chi's feats.I never said that Shang Chi's FEATS make him enhanced.I said that his CHI makes him enhanced which is a fact. Batman doesn't hit any harder than any other peak human. Your comparison is bogus. I'm not taking about feats that "seem" superhuman, i'm taking about feats that you would ACTUALLY have to be superhuman to pull off without the use of chi or some other physical amplification.

I understood what you typed. You obviously are having difficulty grasping what I am stating. Batman has feats that seem superhuman as does Shang Chi. You state that batman does not hit harder than peak human yet earlier you stated that batman is superhuman by marvel standards. You once again contradict yourself. You do not have to be superhuman to "pull off" superhuman-seeming feats in comics Karate Kid does it all the time. As does Shang Chi. Once again you are wrong.

You are simply incapable of being reasoned with. Think what you will.

Shang chi by a slight majority 6/10.

/exits thread.

@weaponmaster said:

@Vance Astro said:

@weaponmaster said:

Batman is a human being with only training who has feats that appear superhuman.

Batman by Marvel's standards IS superhuman.

No. Batman, by Marvel standards, is peak human.

My point is and was that batman and Shang Chi are simply trained humans. In comics many normal peoples feats seem superhuman.

i think the Bat is above peak human

Strictly hand-to-hand: Shang-Chi for the win.

He's more skilled and hasn't relied on powers or enhancements even a fraction of the time BP has.

Strictly hand-to-hand: Shang-Chi for the win.

He's more skilled and hasn't relied on powers or enhancements even a fraction of the time BP has.

Shang-Chi

@Static Shock: Ah ha, so it sounds like its more innate talent and skill rather than hardcore training of specific styles. How interesting...

@Static Shock: Yeah definitely, he's never had an Origins story or series, has he?