Black Panther vs Raiden

Black Panther

Vs

Raiden

Setting:

Start on opposite ends

Rules:

Canon feats for Raiden

Black Panther is Pre-Doomwar/KotD hybrid.Meaning hybrid vibranium suit/current KotD suit along with anti-metal claws, energy daggers, force fields, teleporter and Namor hurting gauntlets and bombs

Standard equipment for Raiden

K.O. or Death ftw

Rounds:

1.Raiden is in character but Panther is Morals Off

2.Both Morals Off

@nickzambuto @sirfizzwhizz @ghostravage @comicstooge @static_shock @laflux @highaccuser @granitesoldier

And @jashro44 though you hate it but you deserve the tag :)

Raiden stomps both rounds. T'Challa isn't touching someone with Raiden's level of speed; Raiden was already faster than Panther in his human body, but in his Rising body it isn't even close.

@beaconofstrength: Raiden faster than Panther with his normal body you say? Man, I sure like to try what you're smoking.

@ddecourt: Raiden simply has better speed feats. He reacted to the rail gun when in cover, could cut down bullets, and kept up and out maneuvered Solidus. And Rising Raiden is much, much, superior to MGS2 Raiden.

And I'm smoking battery acid.

@reaverlation: Do you know that Raiden is a hypersonic, multi-thousand tonner with a sword that can cut through almost anything?

@ddecourt: After obtaining his sword and accepting his own identity, Raiden quickly became a top tier in the Metal Gear universe, which already has characters like Vulcan Raven and Vamp who can perform supernatural feats through sheer skill. Raiden fought side by side with Solid Snake and literally wiped out the entire Gurlukovich mercenary army, the most elite army in the world, while they were all equipped with muscle-amplifying exoskeletons that allowed them to deflect bullets and jump meters into the air. Black Panther would not have survived against an army of superhumans, let alone highly trained superhumans. It just isn't within his ability, the Arsenal Tengu were like Marvel's Hand ninjas on steroids. In the scene immediately following Raiden singlehandedly took on 25 mass-produced Metal Gears, and destroyed all but three of them, then he defeated Solidus Snake in a sword duel, a character far beyond anyone Black Panther has ever fought.

So really I'm gonna go ahead and say even human Raiden is too much for Black Panther.

Raiden easy.

Human Raiden doesn't have the skill feats to contend with Black Panther and lacks compelling showings against skilled fighters. It doesn't hurt that he's not any faster.

That said Rising Raiden should win given that he's much faster and T'Challa will have a hard time melting down his sword and armor or tagging him with the stuff he used on Namor. Assuming Raiden doesn't fight like a tank he wins. Eventually he'd just have to put Panther in an arm lock.

raiden is easily a +100 tonner going by his ship stopping feat and he is also faster than black panther.... he should crush black panther rather quickly without too much trouble

I disagree with that.

But MGR Raiden stomps, though.

Yea mgr raiden is to much.

Raiden stomps, the man is around 1,000 tons and can deflect machinegun bullets with his sword.

Would MGR Raiden be fast enough to get BP before he teleports? And can he see through cloaking? I was planning on buying the game but I never got around to it.

raiden

Raiden.

I don't recall Raiden being able to see through cloaking devices. Also, it's possible that he could catch Panther before he teleports. It's not instant, and it seems like there a mechanism in his gloves that he clutches to activate teleportation.

Pretty much that.

When I see Raiden, i think of Mortal Kombat. I'm leaving now

@beaconofstrength:

And I'm smoking battery acid.

Huh????

Based on what?

I already made a post going over three of Raiden's feats that Black Panther would clearly be unable to replicate. It's really great how you feel that Raiden doesn't have the skill feats and compelling showings whatever that even means, but it's another thing to actually prove that.

1. Black Panther could not wipe out a superhuman army
2. Black Panther could not fight 25 Metal Gears by himself
3. Black Panther would definitely be killed by Solidus

Huh? That's a lot like me saying....

1) Raiden couldn't beat a silver-skinned, cosmic-powered alien being that destroys planets.

2) Raiden couldn't beat an alien being with all of the fighting skills of Marvel's best fighters, Luke Cage's strength and durability, Wolverine's claws, Bullseye's accuracy, and Iron Fist's Chi.

3) Raiden couldn't beat a 100-ft giant mystical flying dragon on his own.

@static_shock: The difference is the feats I listed are clear cut, nothing more than what I mentioned. Raiden and Solid Snake together took a superhuman samurai army head on and slaughtered them to the last man, then Raiden destroyed all but the last three of a 25 Metal Gear brigade on a wide open platform, then he beat Solidus in a sword fight. The examples you listed, there's quite clearly a bit more going on. So no, it isn't the same as you listing those, it's very different, Raiden's combat ability is clearly on a different level from what Black Panther is capable of.

Metal Gear characters are Op'd.

@static_shock: nick is right you know. Half hour feats is simple one fight at the time or have some prep. Nicks feats are all random encounters that happen within hours of each other.

However I feel BP should beat Human Raiden, but it would not be a walk in the park.

Yeah, with a vibrating sword and guns.

How is it that Panther, a highly-skilled, highly-intelligent superhuman with weapons and gear of his own, can't do the same against a superhuman army of samurai (all of which have absolutely no feats to quantify them)?

With Stinger missiles, which was apparent in the cutscenes.

So, T'Challa can't do the same.... with Stinger missiles?

T'Challa could beat him, and he wouldn't need a vibrating sword to do it. Solidus isn't as impressive as you make him out to be, and is clearly powered by tech, which is something that Panther could easily exploit with his standard gear.

Panther used tech that he developed to take away Surfer's powers, putting him on an even playing field. Panther bested him in combat after that. Raiden would have to do the former before doing the latter, and it wouldn't be possible for him.

Panther defeated that Skrull with nothing but hand-to-hand skills, and is knowledgeable of Skrull physiology and where to attack it. Raiden couldn't do it, because he knows nothing about Skrulls.

Panther allowed Chiantang to swallow him, unaware that he planted tech within him to transform him back into his human form (and Panther cut his way out first). Earlier, it was withstanding Iron Fist's attacks. Yeah, Raiden couldn't do it, either.

You say there's a bit more going on, but all I see is one man using what he has at his disposal to defeat his enemies. Just like Raiden. All are more impressive, too.

You co-signing his opinion doesn't make him right. It's all good, though.

Raiden slaughters. He is WAY faster (hypersonic combat speed), WAY stronger (10k-50k easily based off exclesius), is explicitly stated to be able to see through cloaks in rising (the very first enemy raiden fought in his new body tries and boris mentions it is useless against a cyborg.)

From what I read, all panther seems to have on him is a teleporter and vibranium. Even then, Raiden has his HF sword and the ability to spot weaknesses in someone's armor (like he did with sundowner.)

Raiden takes him apart as soon as he's range.

I remember now. The cyborgs dropped out of the air using cloak before Boris said that.

Beating armies is a bit overrated IMO. Shang-Chi soloed 50 men and Classic Iron Fist slatemated him. Black Panther fought a more powerful version of Iron Fist and would've won if it weren't for morals. Sometimes a single skilled fighter is a harder foe than legions of enemies. I also don't think fighting Metal Gears really translates well. Black Panther has gotten the better of Namor recently and he's much stronger than a Metal Gear. I don't remember Solidus showing much skill and Black Panther has armor that can tank everything thrown at him and can break down his sword and armor with Anti-Metal so I think he'd win.

@static_shock: you saying he is wrong does not make you right either. But it is all good though.

You said he was right like his opinion that "Black Panther can't do this or that" was a fact or something. But, okay.

Also, all of the examples I listed were random encounters too.

Raiden murderstomps Black Panther before he even knows Raiden is there

LOL Silver Surfer was not a random dude. BP made a special device against him and used it. What are you talking about there?

You tried to go there dude? @nickzambuto Loom at this!

Im not sure why you took that away from that. I was stating in the fact that I think BP would lose in that scenario, as should have Raiden honestly, but he did not. i think BP fighting with his standard gear, and as he is now, would lose to the Rays alone. Much less the gauntlet Raiden ran of Tengu Soldiers, Rays, and Solidus with only a sword.

However I still stated in the end of my post.

However I feel BP should beat Human Raiden, but it would not be a walk in the park.

Initially, it was a random encounter. But yes, Captain Obvious, he used a device to beat him (which is what I stated already in post number 27). Panther, Storm, Thing, and Johnny were in outer space dealing with a situation involving Gravity, and Surfer and Stardust just so happened to get in their way. Panther left to acquire the armor and came back. Plus, that device was developed long before that encounter, and it was a part of Panther's contingency plan against Galactus, which was mentioned several years prior after Everett Ross found the files for it. The fact that he had it was a revelation of what his plan (or part of it) consisted of.

Also, Raiden's final battle with Solidus wasn't random like you suggested. The final battle wasn't the first time he encountered him in the game. His first meeting with Solidus was the random encounter, in which he later used a Stinger missile to blast his jet out of the sky. Also, his encounter with the Rays involved the use of Stinger missiles, not a sword. He also didn't run through the Tengu on his own. Snake backed him up with firearms. As "superhuman" as these Tengu are, they have no feats, so it doesn't really matter if they're superhuman or not. They may as well be cannon fodder enemies. Trying to say Panther can't beat them doesn't make sense, considering that he's a superhuman himself and actually has feats to back him up. Even if human Raiden fought them all, the Rays, and Solidus back to back, it doesn't mean that he's better than Panther or that Panther can't do the same.

In the end, Panther knew to get special gear to win.

Solidus is a random battle, Raiden had no weapons, nor thought he would fight Solidus the way he did.

Stinger Missiles which Raiden already possessed in his gear.

The Tengu have no feats, except being stated and shown military mercs of the highest order from Russia, combat veterans all, and having the feats of deflecting gun fire with their swords. As well backed up statements on their amp stats in the super suits. Yeah so featless...... better than the jobbing Hand Ninjas.

Gallery

While Snake had a gun, Raiden ran through the battle with a sword. Best part he was having mental illusions during the battle, hindering him further.

BTW non of this here nor there. Human Raiden would lose to BP, and this Raiden will stomp BP. Simple as that. Arguing that human Raiden is some punk kid who is not high level street, thats not really the issue here.

It doesn't matter if he had special gear or not. If dude wants to talk about something he feels Panther can't do, I'll do the same, since that's how people want to debate around here. Only difference is, Raiden can't do what Panther did. Like I said, the final battle wasn't random. The first encounter was, in which Solidus introduced himself and was later shot down with a Stinger missile. Raiden had weapons in both encounters, regardless.

@sirfizzwhizz said:

The Tengu have no feats, except being stated and shown military mercs of the highest order from Russia, combat veterans all, and having the feats of deflecting gun fire with their swords. As well backed up statements on their amp stats in the super suits. Yeah so featless...... better than the jobbing Hand Ninjas.

Gallery

Either that art is really bad and I can't tell if bullets were deflected there, or there's no bullet deflecting going on in those scans. Snake seems to be hitting his targets, though. But, what good does bullet-timing do? First of all, Panther can hit bullet-timers. Second, there are characters that are human-level that can also deflect bullets. Like I said, they are cannon fodder. Statements on their enhancements don't matter if there are little to no showings to support them. I'm not sure why you're bringing up Hand Ninjas, though. By the looks of it, the Tengu aren't any better than the Hand Ninjas you mentioned.

I was only addressing the fact that he thinks human Raiden could take down Panther, since I disagree. I know MGR Raiden wins without breaking a sweat.

Static destroying this thread like a boss, tbh.

This is true.

Hand ninjas have deflected bullets for the record.

Ouch!

They are also combat veterans, too.

Show me. The Tengu spun the swords fast enough to deflect shots form Snake and Raiden, and did this consistently in game, against accomplish Marksmen. @beaconofstrength@nickzambuto Your all going to need to step up against the haters that are going to hate lol. I cant defend you all the time!

Go ahead and show me a Hand Ninja matching that please.

Oh you guys have nostalgic eyes, but worthy as a early HOF for sure. Back in the days when Comicvine was like Killermovies with no real rules, and foul mouth f**kers. lol.

@sirfizzwhizz: You need to calm down man. My only contribution to this discussion was commenting that hand ninjas have blocked bullets. I never said anything about Raiden except a comment before this entire discussion began where I said MGR Raiden is to much for black panther. All though looking through your scans can you point the specfic scan out where the arsenal tengu block bullets? I checked through your scans and I don't see the panel honestly.

Any ways heres the scan I was talking about with the hand ninjas. Its from daredevil volume 2 issue 504, and the hand ninjas jump into a hail of gunfire and we see sparks in the air which indicate bullet blocking and we see them swinging there swords as they jump into the bullets:

They didn't address you, so why are you hating? LOL.

@static_shock:

Yeah, with a vibrating sword and guns.

How is it that Panther, a highly-skilled, highly-intelligent superhuman with weapons and gear of his own, can't do the same against a superhuman army of samurai (all of which have absolutely no feats to quantify them)?

I never said Raiden didn't have a sword and guns, but you're comparing Raiden's basic weaponry to Black Panther spending hours, days or weeks building a special device to specifically drain Silver Surfer's powers. How is that a combat feat? I never said Raiden was smarter than Black Panther, Jack isn't even a scientist or anything close to being one, but how does a feat like that mean anything in a fight? Yes, Raiden had his basic gear to help him... why does that change the feat?

The reason Black Panther couldn't replicate the feat is for the exact reason that the Arsenal Tengu DO have plenty of feats to quantify them, contrary to what you claimed. They were all bullet timers and could deflect gunfire off of their swords, even fully automatic gunfire from extremely close range. This is not only something that Black Panther can't do which Raiden can do, but Raiden's fodder can do. Additionally they were extremely skilled and acrobatic samurai/soldiers, performing leg sweeps, flip kicks, all that stuff, and they could make 15 foot vertical leaps straight into the air as well as 50 foot drops straight onto solid ground without injury. Every single Tengu soldier was wearing muscle-amplifying exoskeletons, Raiden was physically inferior to his own canon fodder, but slaughtered them all through sheer skill. Yeah he had Solid Snake backing him, but that was a joint effort between the two of them, neither could have won on their own. You have to understand, Snake and Raiden literally killed off the entire Gurlukovich army. If Snake had Black Panther backing him up instead, they both would have died because Black Panther wouldn't have been able to keep up, he's never proven he is so superhumanly skilled that he can keep up with an entire army of samurai all physically superior to him, all shooting and fighting at once without getting tagged at all. That is an insane feat the two of them accomplished, Black Panther has simply never done anything like that.

With Stinger missiles, which was apparent in the cutscenes.

So, T'Challa can't do the same.... with Stinger missiles?

No he could not. It's a bit more complicated than just shooting Stinger Missiles everywhere; the RAYs all had impregnable armor, there was a cutscene where a soldier shot a grenade and it literally didn't leave a scratch. Stinger Missiles aren't even close to capable of damaging a Metal Gear, what Raiden needed to do was tactically and systematically attack their joints, which would momentarily drop the Metal Gears and make their mouths' open, which would give Raiden an opportunity to shoot a missile into their interior. He needed to follow this pattern multiple times against each Metal Gear to destroy them all.

Could Black Panther come up with a strategy to get around their impregnable armor? Probably. Could he enact that strategy while keeping up with multiple Metal Gears and avoiding death from the entire arsenal constantly being unleashed onto him? No, he's never been in a situation like that, he's never proven he can keep up with something that overwhelming. Black Panther's strategy against Chiantang was impressive, but little combat was actually involved. Raiden's feat however is about combat.

T'Challa could beat him, and he wouldn't need a vibrating sword to do it. Solidus isn't as impressive as you make him out to be, and is clearly powered by tech, which is something that Panther could easily exploit with his standard gear.

Solidus is too powerful for Black Panther to keep up with. Black Panther is challenged by guys like M'Baku, a 10 tonner. Now imagine of M'Baku's strength was multiplied by 10, and he had the speed to not only weave his body in between individual bullets fired by a mach 3 vulcan canon while sprinting forward, but also deflect an entire arsenal of vulcan fire from a master marksman with just his swords, or erupt the ground beneath his feet into flames by sprinting. Yeah, Black Panther has never faced an opponent wit the COMBINATION of power and speed as Solidus. Solidus' exoskeleton brought him up to Cyborg Ninja-levels, he was AT LEAST equal to the prototype ninja Gray Fox, and Black Panther couldn't keep up with that.

Now could Raiden have defeated that Super Skrull? No, but a feat like that has nothing to do with the scenario we're discussing. Black Panther was intelligent enough to identify a 'tell' whenever the Skrull changed powers. But Raiden isn't a martial artist, he uses a sword. Black Panther is a better martial artist but Raiden is a better fighter. All of the feats you listed have some context to them. Are they impressive feats? Yeah, but they have almost nothing to do with combat. Raiden's feats however are just straight-up testaments to his fighting ability.

50 men is not equal to an army, nor are any of those average men equal to a Tengu. Again Raiden was physically inferior to his own fodder, and the army was the most elite military organization in the world, they were explicitly shown to be superior to Marines, yet Raiden slaughtered them all through sheer skill.

In what context did Black Panther get the better of Namor? Because there is no context to Raiden fighting 25 Metal Gears; he was stranded on a wide open platform and literally just fought them all, that's it.

Regardless of whether Black Panther can beat Solidus, that doesn't make him equal with Raiden. That's ABC logic. You are proposing a strategy where Black Panther would defeat Solidus via technology, whereas Raiden, while technologically inferior to Solidus, defeated him through sheer skill.

@sirfizzwhizz: @jashro44: I go by the games more than the comics. I really only use the comics for things like boss fights, where the only other alternative is gameplay. For the Arsenal Tengu, I don't know about the comics, but in the game they were all easy bullet dodgers and deflectors. It's what forces the player to gradually stray away from firearms and begin using Raiden's sword (which symbolizes Raiden accepting his own identity because he stops fighting like Solid Snake yadda yadda long story) because the sword eventually becomes the only way to attack them, as they'll block or dodge everything else (although it isn't impossible to shoot them with some skill).

@nickzambuto:

Now could Raiden have defeated that Super Skrull? No, but a feat like that has nothing to do with the scenario we're discussing. Black Panther was intelligent enough to identify a 'tell' whenever the Skrull changed powers. But Raiden isn't a martial artist, he uses a sword. Black Panther is a better martial artist but Raiden is a better fighter. All of the feats you listed have some context to them. Are they impressive feats? Yeah, but they have almost nothing to do with combat. Raiden's feats however are just straight-up testaments to his fighting ability.

How is the showing against the skrull not a testament to his fighting ability?

Being able to cut down automatic gunfire, stomp through hoards of Tengu Soldiers (who were already bullet-timers+), outmaneuvering Solidus (who was able to completely blitz and destroy Olga), and dodging the rail gun, after it was fired, from only 20-30 feet away. I just think MGS2 Raiden had better speed feats.

You were simply listing things he felt he couldn't do, and I did the same to show you that your argument is somewhat flawed. Panther definitely has the combat ability to defeat Raiden.

They don't have enough feats to quantify them, though. Black Panther doesn't need to be a bullet-timer. He has tagged bullet-timers with no trouble. Also, leg sweeps, flip kicks,15-foot verticals, etc? Those make the Tengu superior to Panther? That's it? Truth be told, Panther has done all of those things and more. Panther was doing flips kicks while depowered, and that isn't even a superhuman feat. He did a vertical jump in the double digits in front of Luke Cage, who stated that the Knicks could use him on the team. He's been shown to jump even higher than that while carrying a fully-grown man and woman in tow. He has also jumped even higher than that in an attempt to knock a flying Dr. Strange out of the sky. Panther can't keep up with them? Captain America was impressed with Panther's speed, to the point that he said that he was faster than an actual panther (and Captain America is a bullet-timer himself). Wolverine and Sabretooth are some of the fastest street-levelers in Marvel, and have moved faster than the normal eye on several occasions. Yet, they were surprised with Panther's speed. Even Panther himself has fought Iron Fist at those same speeds (Iron Fist is also a bullet-timer). So, what is it about the Tengu that puts Panther on a level lower than them? Whether or not they got tagged (going by the game) is relative to the skill of the player.

Also, bullet-timing has been done before by normal human characters. It's not as impressive as you think it is.

So, normal human Raiden was able to destroy multiple Rays until he got tired. But, for some reason, Panther (who is superhuman), who has loads more stamina (fought for 13 hours at one point, and fought and killed loads of things and traveled for five days while sustaining multiple injuries without rest) can't do this? Just because he's never proven to do that doesn't mean he can't do that.

T'Challa is also challenged by characters more powerful than M'Baku, and has defeated them. Also, fighting and defeating that Skrull IS a testament to fighting ability, a testament to fighting skills, especially if said Skrull has the fighting skills of Marvel's best fighters plus a bunch of superhuman abilities to boot. Even if he figured out how to get around its powers, it was still pure skill, regardless. No weapons. No tech. All fighting ability. Whether or not Raiden is better fighter is debatable. He could be a better swordsman, but that's about it.

You say Solidus is too powerful, but I've seen nothing to suggest that. Solidus's strength is 10x that of M'Baku's? So, he can lift 100 tons? I've never seen that in the game. Black Panther has never faced a lot of powerful enemies in the battle threads. But, that doesn't mean he can't contend. That's the point of debating. Like I said, Panther can fight bullet-timers, so however Solidus is able to dodge gunfire doesn't really matter. As for sprinting to the point that the ground catches fire, in the fight against Raiden, he doesn't appear to be sprinting. It seems like there's jets in his boots or something. Even when he was sprinting toward that Ray, there wasn't any flames present in the wake of his footsteps. Flames only appeared until after he jumped into the air.

If Raiden is able to beat Solidus with no physical enhancements, it don't see how it would be difficult for Panther.