Black Panther vs. Cassandra Cain

That is true, but wans't Cassandra also drugged for that fight?

In the end I stick by my initial analysis. With gear Panther wins 9/10, without it Cassie wins 7/10.

bp takes this. he is stronger and faster. he would take this without his gear.

@lunacyde: The soul drug wasn't the kind of drug to make them lose skill or ability or anything. It made them have looser morals and want to fight. It's as close to a real fight for both fighters as is possible.

Where's the evidence that he is faster? This thread is full of Cassie's speed feats. Batman and Deathstroke couldn't touch her, she has dodge bullets after they have fired since a child, she has blitz a room full of gun men before they could pull the trigger, out-raced a bullet on panel, and so on. Going by feats she has legit super speed and she often uses it in battle.

Yes, with gear Panther wins, but it's his massive intellect that will allow him to use that gear effectively, as Batman did against Cass. That's my point.

@supermutant2121:

people make the same argument with batman and spiderman. bp has powers. Cassandra is human.

Agreed. His intellect and experience as you emphasized earlier will be a contributing factor. However without the gear to help him I don't think his experience would be enough to defeat Cass in a pure H2H fight.

We both agree that experience is a factor, just a small discrepancy on how big of a difference it makes, and how it weighs in with other factors.

Glad we could reach an agreement.

You can't even comment on the correct character. cassandra Cain is Batgirl, Kate Kane is Batwoman.

It doesn't matter what your status is, if her feats are more impressive than his, she is faster. I have heard time and time again from people that "Black Panther is faster", and yet I have not seen a SINGLE person provide any kind of proof for that claim. it doesn't have to be scans if you don't have them, but at least provide an argument more than "I lYkeZ pAntHeR sOo HeZ fAzzTeR"

Also your analogy fails because Batman doesn't have feats putting him above Spider-Man. Cassie does however have feats that put her above Black Panther in speed.

Thanks, I was under the impression that by losing her morals it would impede her ability to think tactically.

I meant to change the batwoman thing. she has 0 feets putting her above bp. how can a human be faster than a person with powers?

I have posted dozens of speed feats for Cassie. I am still waiting for ONE SINGLE shred of evidence from BP supporters to prove that he is faster.

If he is faster, then prove it. If he is so vastly superior to her I'm sure it shouldn't be too hard to find evidence. Until then, your argument is null.

@christianrapper:

Also, Cassie has no metagene, and does not truly have metahuman speed...however her combat speed is faster than his because her brain composition and function allows her to coordinate all of her actions with such speed that collectively she is moving with metahuman speed. She also has the advantage of knowing what her opponent is going to do ahead of time due to her body reading ability.

@lunacyde: I don't have much investment in him being faster, I don't think he necessarily is but...

1. Tags Spiderman who is both extremely Superhuman Fast and Agile and Has The Spider Sense.

2.Counters Wolverine who is considered metahuman fast at the least and is considered by some to be fast enough to blitz the likes of batman and Captain America.

3. & 4. Close range bullet dodging.

If you give me some time I can get scans for these feats (its not a problem at all, so feel free to ask). For the record I don't necessarily believe his feats are better than Cass's but I think they're about even. I would say in terms of raw speed (meaning no body reading) he probably has a slight edge due to his on paper stats). With body reading I guess you can say she has a slight edge.

• Spider-man once said black panther was more agile than he is in a brief encounter. For the record I don't think black panther is since Peter didn't want to fight him at the time (black panther thought he was a thief) but I think its still pretty impressive considering how fast and agile Peter himself is.
• Wolverine has commented on his speed multiple times and has had issues tagging black panther in their past encounters (not talking about the killable fight)
• He once moved so fast he was seen as a white streak and knocked 2 people down by passing by them
• I found part of the script between the fight with iron fist, and apparently while the 2 were underwater iron fist threw all of his punches faster than human eyes can track and black panther dodged every single punch. They would be a lot faster above water where there wouldn't any water resistance to deal with.
• He outran sabretooth after giving him a head start
• He leapt into sue storms force field before it could close in his first appearance.
• He outmaneuvered the human torch aso in his first appearance (take this however you may).
• He has moved as a blur even without his enhancements

Again I can get scans if you want.

@christianrapper:

By feats:

In raw speed: Cassie > Black Panther.

In combat-speed / reaction time / agillity: Cassie > or = Black Panther.

T'Challa.

Cass would get absolutely murdered if this was the case.

Challa wins. He has the gear advantage.

Panther.

t'challa

@bat_girl_cc:

Do you have anything of her fighting actual super powered people? You know, people with enhanced strength, speed, reaction, etc? Taking down fodder robbers is nothing compared to fighting actual super people.

Cool she can dodge bullets. So can every other street level super hero. Dodging bullets is a trope:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DodgeTheBullet

What's hilarious is that they used Cassandra Cain as an example.

Dodging lasers on the other hand is far more impressive than dodging bullets which BP does casually.

Cassandra moving in a white streak is just the author showing the reader that she's faster than the normal person. She doesn't literally move in white streaks. Raw speed isn't even a factor in close combat unless Cass is trying to run for her life.

Black Panther schools black suit Spider Man. You know that guy with precog and on top of already having amazing agility has his stats increased in the black suit.

Out maneuvers Human Torch

He can dodge bullets too at close range just in case you doubt he can. Nothing special because it's a trope.

Using his agility he catches Silver Surfer's board

He stalemated a bloodlusted Iron Fist

Notice in the scan above how fast he left the area right before Iron Fist could emerge from the water too.

You can see in the scan above that Iron Fist can casually destroy brick walls with his chi enhanced fists and in the earlier scans BP was blocking a barrage of these chi punches

To be honest I don't think Cass would last long against a blood lusted Iron Fist. Not from what I'm seeing from her.

Then there's the fight of him completely fodderizing Cap without taking any hits and him beating Wolverine who's also a great H2H fighter.

I'm backing Black Panther in this fight. I really hope those scans uploaded because I'm not seeing them.

*Edit*

why did all my scans disappear?

When people press "enter" after every sentence....

Virtually none of the street level heroes can dodge bullets.

What you are talking about is called Aim-Dodging, characters moving quickly enough that the criminals have difficulty aiming.

@monsterstomp:

I had scans under each sentence and I don't know why the frink they all disappeared

T'Challa.

Cass has Panther in terms of speed. The main problem here is the suit.

Panther take this.

@patrat18:

No she doesn't. Show me her beating someone who's as fast and agile as black suit Spiderman

All her speed feats in this thread are just her fodderizing normal goons which is nothing

@saladking: So he manage to tag Spider man in mid air who was joking around with him? Cass clearly dodges bullets after they've been fired.

@patrat18:

Dodging bullets is something Black Panther already does plus its a trope so that doesn't mean anything. Can Cass even dodge lasers? BP can.

It still takes speed to be able to keep up with your opponents and Spiderman always make wise cracks during fights. Are you new to Marvel or something?

Again show me Cass fighting anyone near as fast as black suit Spiderman

Well spider-man also did say black panther beats his agility in a rock paper scissors sort of way. Again I don't think this proves Panther is faster than Peter but its still pretty impressive.

@saladking: Peter was caught while joking in mid air, If Pete was serious that would be a different case. True it's impressive.

Batman dodges lasers, even beams from Dr Light, yet she dances around him.

Cass dodges bullets (AFTER) they've been fired. Not before, AFTER!

Agreed.

Hasn't she fought Supergirl and Superboy? I'd call BS but I don't know the full context behind those fights.

BP

Cassie fought Bizarro-Supergirl, after Bizarro-Supergirl stomped the "real" Supergirl:

Supergirl #63 - The Best Medicine

Dodging bullets its not for everybody...aim dodging, is...

Yes, Cassie dodge lasers, light, lightning, eye beams, pretty much everything a high street-leveler can do, in terms of speed:

Jmarshmallow

@jmarshmallow:

Based off feats at the time though, there weren't really many impressive showings to put him a decent amount above Cass physically.

Which would not only be irelevent if this were true since he has the feats now, is also false...

Again, at this point in time the vibranium suit didn't have the showings of being able to tank any hit. I just think that Cass's superior skills and body reading would allow her to take him down. I'd be interested to see if pressure points worked as well.

He's had the vibranium suit since the late 90's. HIs ongoing with Priest where he tanked hits from iron man, a bloodlusted iron fist, and a car tossed by the hulk was over by the year 2003....This thread is 6 years old. That means it was made in 2008. So yes he did have the feats at the time. His suit covers pressure points so no they wouldn't work unless your going to argue cass can hit through vibranium.

And again I don't see why this would matter. Even if he never had the feats at the time he still has them now....

Cass can't really hurt panther.

I cannot believe that anyone on the 'Vine (let alone knowledgable, respected posters like Static Shock and Buckshot!?!) think that Cassandra can even touch, let alone DEFEAT the Black Panther! In addition to the speed feats that Lunacyde displayed, there is Marvel Team Up issue 20 (first series, 1972). In this story, "Dinosaurs on Broadway", Black Panther and Spider-man go up against Stegron the Dinosaur man. Stregron's tail is inhumanly fast and strikes Spider-man several times during the course of the issue (at one point, Spider-man even webbed it down, yet was not able to avoid it, and Stegron then threw him over the edge of a huge height; Panther had to save him from being street pizza. And this was after several encounters Spider-man had with this opponent dating back to the previous issue. The panther however, who had not EVER faced Stegron before, easily dodged Stegron's every blow---causing Stegron, the first time he missed Panther to exclaim "Impossible!" Nothing that lives can avoid my flashing tail!" To which the Panther replied, before punching him in the face, "Sorry to make a LIAR out of you, friend---But the BLACK PANTHER CAN!" There are numerous other examples of the Panther's speed-Lunacyde chronicled some excellant ones above-but the point is the Panther's not just some well skilled human in a kitty cat suit! The Panther was a highly trained, peak human able to keep up with Cassie BEFORE becoming imbued with the heart shaped herb. With the herb he is low level super-human in speed, strength, and senses able to keep up with Spider-man, Wolverine, etc. As astonishingly skilled as she is, Cassie, as far as I know is HUMAN, and without PIS you cannot "train" yourself into doing more than human limits allow (with the possible exception of Captain America). The Panther could take her WITHOUT the King of the Dead upgrade and vibranium suit; WITH them, well---I believe the term is "Close your eyes; you REALLY don't want to see this!"

OOOPS! I think I gave credit for showing Panther speed examples to the wrong poster. I meant to aknowledge the speed feats displayed by Cerberus369616!

Black Panther will win this... easily

Black Panther will win. He's the ALMIGHTY KING of ComicVine. He's as smart as Reed Richards, a better fighter than Wolverine, Batman, Deathstroke, Daredevil [insert the names of every martal arts master from the DC and Marvel universe], and he doesn't even need prep. Black Panther is literally the best, smartest, most skilled and almighty character here on ComicVine. He could actually solo the whole DC universe, Marvel universe, Hellsing universe, Naruto universe and every other universe, without prep. He would just use his super dupa, super special vibrate- uh sorry I mean, vibranium suit. Oh and the vibranium suit (shall we praise him as the holy suit), is indestructible! You see, that nobody has a chance against the almighty Black Panther.

T'Challa

HMM

Cassie takes this one. Body reading for the win