Black Panther(T'challa) runs the gauntlet!!

@cosmic_lantern: @thegrayghost: @newecho:

I read through your debate, and i would like to make a couple of things clear, if you people allow me too:

1) Black Panther is not as skilled as Lady Shiva, he may be close, like Batman is close, but equal? nah...Lady Shiva is a master of all fighting forms, and she learns 12 new different martial arts styles every year...from everyone that i know of, only Karate Kid and Batman One Million, could be said to be more skilled than her, but those are from future timelines.

2) Dick Grayson, has never defeated Cass, neither as Batman or as Nightwing, the best that he ever did, was stallemating her, on Batman and the Outsiders #14 - A Family Affair but that was a high-end showing for Nightwing, and low-end showing for Cass, considering each character's overall feats...and also considering that, that was the only ocasion on which Cass had any trouble with Dick Grayson at all...On Batgirl #1 - Redemption Road, Chapter One: Square One Nightwing attacked Cass, and Cass, without even trying to fight back at all, danced circles around him without getting touched, and even disarmed him, the fight was stopped by Batman shortly after Cass had disarmed him...and on Batgirl #5 - Redemption Road, Part 5 - As My Father Made Me Nightwing tryed to stop Cass from taking the Bat-Plane with her, which resulted on Cass "kicking him away" and taking the Bat-Plane with her, anyway.

3) Cass has consistently performed feats such as dodging bullets after they've been fired (sniper-bullets as well), moved too fast to be perceived, etc. And feats like these, are very rarely seen being performed by other street-levelers, normally what they do, it's dodging the gun's-aim, which it's not that much impressive, considering that in order to do it, everything that it's needed it's you having better reflexes than the shooter.

So yeah, she's faster than the most, including Batman, Cap, and others.

@bat_girl_cc: you forgot to mention batgirl 50 where dick was hilariously slapped aside as an afterthought by cass when he tried to interfere in her fight with bruce

Yeah, i forgot that one, although, Dick wasn't probably expecting that, so i'd spare him that one, lol.

* Edit *

Coming to think about it, during a crime-simulation, Nightwing himself has admitted to Cass, that because of her Body-Reading, he knows that he can't touch her...it was on Batgirl #29 - Bruce Wayne: Fugitive Part Thirteen i think.

* Finish Edit *

@bat_girl_cc: read the scans I posted,, panther has mastered all fighting styles so shiva and him are as skilled as each other... I never said dick was better than cass.. he asked who has taken advantage of cass body reading... I said nightwing and slade..i know you don't know panther because you don't read marvel. Panther is super in strength and speed with the herb... he is a master tactician also...

@newecho: So once again, to return to the original question, when you outright note cap is slower than BP ( based on nothing at all) , Cap stalemating him is BP getting jobbed then?

Cap sure has dodged bullets a couple of times after they are fired in the mid 2000s, 6 decades after his inception as a character. Bruce sure has one shotted Shiva and Slade later in his career , despite previous performances being....contrary to say the least. Heck he even punches away bullets 2 decades into the post crisis era.

So, sure even Tim Drake has bullet timing feats when it comes to it. Which is why the second bit about consistently doing so from the * beginning* of their careers is important

So when characters like bruce or cap only have a couple of feats late into their careers after thousands of appearances, and the frequency with which they fail to replicate such feats, to the extent of being treated like a joke by those who do so on a consistent basis ( Cass, Matt), this doesnt say much about them being anything more than peak human

You sure are tossing around terms like "2 tonner " for fun. When do you feel Cap has lifted 2 tons over his head?

Can you * please* make a single argument based on * feats*? Please?

Mastered all fighting styles? that's just impossible...there are thousands of them...he can at best, be a master of all fighting forms, like Lady Shiva, which even if he is, that by itself doesn't make him equal to Shiva, Shiva has more and better skill feats than him, to support her skill-set.

Yeah, i don't read Marvel, but i like to keep myself informed and updated about what happens there, and i do happen to know quite a bit about Panther, i'm far from a expert on him, but i know enough to know that Shiva is more skilled than him.

Nightwing can't counter Cassandra's Body-Reading...he himself has admitted that much to Cass...DC "gave" Dick Grayson that stallemate against her, just like they had him defeating Ra's All Ghul in a sword fight, among other feats all around the same time, because he was on his way to become Batman, and he needed better feats.

I never said anything about Panther's strengh, so i don't know why you are telling that to me, but in a fight, skill > physical stats.

Yeah, he really does.

I'm not saying that it's not even, but without his vibranium suit, i really don't see who from 5 to 8 could he take a majority over.

7

@bat_girl_cc: I posted two scans on the first page... one says he has mastered all hand to hand combat and the other says he knows all the fighting styles so yes he is as skilled as shiva. I mentioned the super stats with the herb because since his skill is as good as shiva then his physical superiority should give him the win over them... even if you believe shiva is still more skilled its not by any significant amount. ...his physicals way outclassed theirs...

@thegrayghost: so basically you are saying don't take the totality of a character's career... you are wanting to ignore brubaker I am guessing. Btw cap's strength in the older days isn't what it was during Brubaker's run but his speed was there.. he has dodged bullets after they were fired throughout his career and dodged bullets while in mid air by turning his body... I really don't get your low balling of cap? Panther is a completely different beast as he is more skilled than cap and needs an enhancement to keep up with him physically. ... I am home now so I will get some scans together but I am only going to put panther feats on here...

clears

@newecho: Based on what?

For example, Panther has greater physical strength because he could wrestle down a rhino with his bare hands

Shiva also has done things like one hand toss a grown man several feet . However, thats not quite as impressive as Panthers feat

When shiva does things like break Crocs bones and make him collapse in a heap on a day he is ignoring grenade blasts, and otherwise flat out punches through people ( so does Panther btw), this shows her striking power is more than good enough to hurt him and given she is faster, compensate for the physical strength deficit

Feats man, feats

Its like you are not even *trying* to form an argument based on feats

why did you just tag my name instead of posting a proper comment?

@thegrayghost: I am on my phone so it sent before I could write anything ... I edited it tho

@bat_girl_cc: I was just joking with the "lol no" thing. But you should note that BP has his vibranium claws, and the claws are capable of firing projectiles in multiple directions. And we shouldn't disregard his speed. He was able to catch Spiderman off guard on two separate occasions, and we both know Spiderman is faster than Cain. He's fast enough to dodge gunfire with ease and was even stated by Captain America that he is faster than the actual Black Panther animal. Just my two sense.

Nope, i just saw that scan now, and it doesn't says that he has mastered them, but rather studied every martial art style, which would still be impossible in real-life, but in comics i guess that it's possible, although studying and mastering are not the same thing...you know, depending on how much dedicated and talented one is, it can take several years, for someone to fully master one single martial art style...while anyone can study alot of stuff, even at the same time, and ending up learning some stuff about it, but never coming close to master it.

The idea that i get from Panther's heart shapped herb, is that it makes him stronger, sure, but not necessarily meta-human per-se...lot's of peak-humans are capable of crazy display's of strengh, and they are not meta-humans...Batman, for insances has held a 1 ton ceiling with his hands, and bench-pressed 1 ton routinely.

I also get the idea that Lady Shiva is faster than Panther, i mean, she has always kept up in combat with Cassandra Cain, who's speed is insane...and Tim Drake once stated that Lady Shiva is the fastest fighter that he ever saw, even faster than Batman.

@bat_girl_cc: batman supported a 1000ibs ceiling which is only half a ton plus there is a difference between supporting and lifting. Batman doesn't work out with half a to let alone a full ton. Also the avngers ultimate guide says black panther is a master of all fighting forms which is what newecho was referring to.

Clears or 8

@newecho: You are babbling a load of incohherent nonsense. Is Panther in another league physically than Cap or vice versa? who needs an enhancement to keep up with whom?

its interesting that you talk about me ignoring Brubaker's run when said run itself notes that the serum enhanced him " to the...,peak of human potential" in ...2010 alone as far as that goes. While we are there , which feat from said run do you feel is particularly above peak human?

Low balling of cap? Things like twisting out of the bullets having never happened, and dodging bullets after they are fired happening a couple of times over thousands of appearances spread over decades is me low balling or stating a fact?

as for everything else, you are confused . Your comments dont seem to follow a linear narrative, seem oddly disconnected and are bordering on the hopeful with their absolute lack of feats to provide a compelling argument

Good day

Everyone from 5 to 8 can for exemple, dodge/catch multiple projectils sent from multiple directions...if you want i can post scans of Lady Shiva literally, kicking Connor Hawke's arrows in half...or Cass dodging Ollie's arrows in mid-air, or catching Shadow's Thief's shuriken's with her fingers...or Deathstroke jumping and running circles in the middle of big weaves of bullets...

The thing about the Marvel street-leveler-fighters performing well against Spider-Man, is that almost everyone can say it...BP has done it, Cap has done it, DD has done it, Elektra has done it, mostly due to Peter's morals, because we all know that a serious Spider-Man, would make short work out of most of those people.

Yeah, but the majority of his gun-fire avoidance, are aim-dodging showings, not bullet-dodging showings, and aim-dodging it's something that every street-leveler has done/does on a daily basis.

I'm not saying that he cannot compete or even beat some of them from 5-to-8 once or twice, but if we are talking about a majority, i really don't see him pulling it off.

@jashro44: The thousand pounds ceiling thing is pre crisis iirc, and non canon

Bruce has otherwise seemingly benched 1000 pounds without any problems

You are right that isnt a ton, but has BP ever lifted a ton over his head? Doubt it but still..

mildly curious to see if he has anything especially exceeding Bruce's strength feats

HA! all fighting forms! like Lady Shiva, yes i see it, he said all martial arts styles, which would be downright impossible.

@jashro44:

Yeah, i mistaked pounds with ibs, lol, but it has been a while since i've looked at that instancem but Batman has other impressive strengh showings, for a peak-human, which is what i was saying.

What is your view, on Black Panther's strengh limit, with the heart shapped herb? is above, say Cap, in overall showings?

Utterly wrong

He clears

Clears or 8

I only recall seeing one scan of Bruce benching what people claim to be 1000ibs but the numbers drawn on the weight are pretty difficult to read so I am not even sure if it says the number that people claim it says. I also remember in batman venom Bruce couldn't budge 630ibs which kind of adds another reason for me to question if the number on the weight is what people say it is.

He held open the jaws of a 20ft crocodile (average crocodile has a PSI of 3700 which should be 1.85 tons, and this crocidile was abnormally large), has leapt across a balcony IIRC, has leapt to the top of a farm during the old avengers/defenders crossover, In Avengers 61 he pushed a boulder which was big enough to topple Ymir (it was "delicately balanced" admittedly but I think its better than batmans average strength showings).

So there are a few instances and I would say it is consistent.

@bat_girl_cc I believe that a fighting form is the same thing as martial arts but I could be wrong.

I have always been of the opinion that cap and black panther are stronger than batman. Striking power is debatable IMO.

A form of fighting, can be boxing, karate, or sword-fighting, you know what i mean?...a martial art style or substyle, its the variations of the fighting forms...just on chinese boxing, there's over 300 martial arts substyles...kung-fu, it's a fighting form, and a form of living, and there's about 700 different martial arts styles of kung-fu...it's just completely impossible to master every single one...unless you leave hundreds of years :p

Agreed.

@bat_girl_cc: Alright I see what your saying. Fair enough I suppose.

@bat_girl_cc: You have a point on the whole Spiderman thing, but BP has dodge bullets before, he even caught an arrow thrown at him from behind, he didn't even turn around to catch it, he caught it while his back was turned. But since Lady Shiva, Cass, and DS has done so too, whatever. But BP is not some mugger or a police officer, his skills are beyond someone like Ollie or Connor Hawke. So someone like BP with his skills and abilities coupled with projectiles is something to consider.

@bat_girl_cc: my whole thing is if their skill is close then we have to seperate them some how. Panther with the herb is super so that is how choose to seperate him vs shiva. Cass is a different animal with her body reading but I am thinking that his skill along with his physicals and his strategic mind will allow him to beat cass if he can get in her head. Could cass beat before that happens? Maybe... new 52 slade I do not see being a problem at all but to be fair I am only at number 6 of the series and haven't got to the godkiller slade yet... pre 52 slade should beat panther if panther doesn't get vibranium or any tech...

@thegrayghost: dude you need to re read everything I said.... I said since you were not wanting to look at a character as a whole then you must want to ignore brubaker's run and then listed a bunch of other stuff about his speed. He has dodged bullets in mid air so I really don't get you... but I am done discussing cap....

Same thing happened to me, so I said screw it, we both have different opinions so be it.

Clears

Ya know what? You and gray ghost 100% correct, I just noticed BP doesn't even have his gear in this gauntlet. Bar the reflexes department, he is a bullet timer I stand by that.

I don't think Cassandra is faster than Captain America or Panther, though.... To be fair, a lot of her speed feats are showcased against regular, inadequately trained humans. So, yeah, they are going to have issues perceiving or keeping up with her ability to move. Against Cap or Panther, two enhanced human beings with low superhuman stats, she's not going to be moving so fast that they can't keep up with her (and Panther has actually fought at speeds faster than the human eye can see, as well showcasing his speed against characters with comparable battle speeds, also). As for dodging bullets, Panther and Captain America can do this. Cap has stated that he "sees" faster than bullets move, thus confirming that he's a bullet-timer. Panther has had numerous showings of dodging gunfire, but it's harder to prove that he can time bullets in the same manner. Either way, I don't think bullet timing really matters in the grand scheme of things. Both Captain America and Panther have tagged bullet-timers on occasion.

Sans the over-the-top, inconsistent Batman feats, you're right.

Passes.

Anyway, Panther makes it to 7. Since he's neutered here (very little gear), he could likely lose to Slade (who is probably fully geared, as always).

As an answer for fighters like Cass and Shiva, Panther has studied (and mastered) every fighting style in the world, and has the feats to support that. While he may not be as skilled as Shiva (who masters 10-12 new fighting styles every year, while discarding the old ones she's mastered), he's definitely skilled enough to beat her (and the fact that he's superhuman is the icing on the cake). Same goes for Cassandra, too.

Actually, based on consistent showings, Cap and Panther are better than Bruce (New 52 or Post Crisis, doesn't matter). But, hey. That's just my opinion, though (and based on what I've seen).

The problem here is that a lot of Cassandra's speed feats are showcased against regular humans. Same goes for Shiva. They aren't faster than Panther, who has been able to keep up with Spidey on two occasions (tagged Spidey before he could react in the first, and did so again in the second), dodged Captain America and had him stating that T'Challa was faster than the animal he's named for, matched Wolverine in combat speed, and has even caught up with Sabretooth after giving him a head start. Both Creed and Logan were more than impressed (albeit surprised) with Panther's speed. Speed showings against metahumans >>>> speed showings against normal humans. I know Cassandra is a bullet-timer, but Panther has tagged people like that without much trouble (Spidey, Iron Fist, Daredevil, etc). Bullet-timing doesn't really matter, because when said characters get into battles with other skilled characters, they get hit on a regular basis.

As for the pre-cog thing, both Cassandra and Shiva have been tagged numerous times, in spite of it (usually when fighting highly-skilled characters).

Panther has never been classified as peak-human in his comic book appearances. He was stated to have supranormal physical abilities (another word for superhuman) as a result of the Heart-Shaped Herb (Panther's Prey #3). Coupled with that, he's got a number of feats that support his physical level. Bastet also enhanced Panther even further, making him slightly stronger than he was before (Fantastic Four #608), according to Jonathan Hickman. Panther is only peak-human when he's not enhanced. He said this in Man Without Fear, while fighting Vlad the Impaler. Panther was depowered at the time.

I'd speak for Cap and Logan, but they aren't in this battle....

Clears

Stops at 1... Dick is one of the best figthers in his Universe second only to Batman himself in skill, he's also the most agile human in DC, easily a match for Panther. Panther is slightly stronger but Dick is no slouch in the strength department either.

Stops at 1... Dick is one of the best figthers in his Universe second only to Batman himself in skill, he's also the most agile human in DC, easily a match for Panther. Panther is slightly stronger but Dick is no slouch in the strength department either.

Actualy Cap's lifting limit is 800 lbs. Panther's is 750 lbs according the the OHOTMUDE

Like i said, i see him keeping up with them and making them work for it, even without his vibranium suit, but taking a majority over them? that's a bit of a stretch in my opinion.

@static_shock

The only real advantages that BP has over either Cass and/or Lady Shiva, it's his strengh and his tactician skills, which can only get him so far...stricking-power it's what matter's in a fight, and his durabillity advantage (even without his vibranium suit, since he has more muscle-mass) it's nullifyed by Cass and Shiva's Body-Reading skills, not to mention that with them bloodlusted, durabillity won't factor much, considering that everyone here can kill a person in one hit, and BP is in big trouble here, because he would be the less likely to go for the killing blows, here...and i would say that Cass has pain-tolerance over him, though i also don't think that, that would factor much on a fight under this circunstances.

On Lady Shiva vs BP (without his vibranium suit) Normally i see it being a very close fight, that i see Shiva winning, Lady Shiva is more skilled than BP, BP has the strengh advantage, but they wouldn't be in a lifting contest, also Lady Shiva has tanked Batman's hits, who's strengh and stricking-power feats, are well documented...plus, she's a bit faster in my opinion, if we see how she was able to keep up with Cass in close-combat, (Batman and Nightwing could barely when they tried it, and even Deathstroke couldn't land one single clean shot on her, on 2 different occasions that also toke place on 2 different titles), and how even Tim Drake once stated that she's faster, than Batman, who's speed i see being equal to Panther's, and during a fight between them on Batman #427 - A Death In the Family Part 2 i belive that Lady Shiva kicked Batman so fast, that he didn't even saw it (crazy skilled martial artist's can appear to be superhumanly fast in close-quarters, so this is not something over the top)...And then, we have Shiva's own version of the Body-Reading, which while not being as good as Cassandra's would also factor in it, i mean, all things considered, i would give Shiva a small majority over BP (without his vibranium suit)...Now, that is with both characters, "in character"...the OP has them bloodlusted, and BP in character...one word....leopard blow...BP has a good chance of landing some hits on Shiva, but he better make them count, because Shiva only needs one move, and one hit...and considering that Shiva is at the very least equal in speed to BP, and can Body-Read, well...this is why i don't see him taking a majority over Shiva, i wouldn't see it normally, and much less this way.

On Cass vs BP...well...this one, i don't see being such a close contest, as the above...it's not a stomp by any means, but let's face it...Cass is faster (considerably)...Cassandra's Body-Reading was explained in detail, and how it works several times, and we've seen it in combat exemples against Shrike, Batman, Nightwing, Red Robin, etc, and if we ignore 1 or 2 BS showings, on which the writter ignored Cassandra's abillities, because he wasn't smart enough to get around them in a smart way, we see that BP would land few hits on Cass, also Cass knows multiple nerve-strikes and pressure-points, she has no need to only play-defense, and here she's bloodlusted...we know that Cass can punch through a brick-wall...we know that Cass can punch through bullet-proof glass...we know that Cass can kick hard enough to break steel...obviously, she won't do that to other people, but here, she's bloodlusted, and i wonder, what would a hit like that, do to Panther's body...and while we're at it, let's think about what many of them would do, considering that cass is faster she would land quite a big amount of hits on Panther.

On New 52 DS vs B.P - New 52 Slade has much less feats than classic Panther obviously, but he has way better durabillity feats (BP without his vibranium suit) the guys's a freackin tank...he also has some pretty awesome accuracy feats...and on his more recent run, his skill has been on display more, on Deathstroke #3 - Family Values he easly overwhelmed Bronze Tiger, and on Deathstroke #5 - Battle Royale he stallemated Batman, despite being hindered in alot of ways...Also, Slade is just as much of the tactician that BP is, i see no advantage for BP there, nor in physical stats, BP's advantage would be in skill, although not a big one...personally, i think that New 52 DS would win.

On Pre 52 DS vs BP - This is the least even fight of them all, in my opinion...here Slade has all the tools, he has alot of feats, and he's bloodlusted.

@static_shock: " I don't think Cassandra is faster than Captain America or Panther, though.... To be fair, a lot of her speed feats are showcased against regular, inadequately trained humans. So, yeah, they are going to have issues perceiving or keeping up with her ability to move. Against Cap or Panther, two enhanced human beings with low superhuman stats, she's not going to be moving so fast that they can't keep up with her (and Panther has actually fought at speeds faster than the human eye can see, as well showcasing his speed against characters with comparable battle speeds, also). As for dodging bullets, Panther and Captain America can do this. Cap has stated that he "sees" faster than bullets move, thus confirming that he's a bullet-timer. Panther has had numerous showings of dodging gunfire, but it's harder to prove that he can time bullets in the same manner. Either way, I don't think bullet timing really matters in the grand scheme of things. Both Captain America and Panther have tagged bullet-timers on occasion. "

- Bullet-dodging it's always impressive regardless of who the shooter is, because the feats are performed after the bullet leaves the gun, at which point, the shooter becomes irrelevant, because he has no control or impact, on anything that happens once the bullet leaves the gun, it's a feat of speed/reflexes/reaction-time....and it is important for fights, because if you are capable of side-steping bullet's consistently, then you surely are capable of sidesteping a people's attacks, though crazy skilled peak-humans can tagg bullet-timers in close quarters, because they too appear to have super-speed in close-quarters, sometimes.

- The shooter it's important on aim-dodging feats, because obviously, dodging the aim, of fodder, it's not the same as dodging the aim of Deadshot, for instances...but if you want to go there, Cass has avoided gun-fire from David Cain (showed multiple times), from Deathstroke, on Nightwing #81 - Venn Diagram, Part 2: Friends Under Fire and on Batgirl #63 - Could've Been, Part One: Nowadays, and from some other top-marksman's.

- Agree, on Cass speed-Blitz being mostly against Cannon-fodder, although, she was once able to momentarily Blitz Batman during a sparring/training-session, after Batman asked Cass to stop holding back.

- Fair Enough, but that also depends on the circunstances of which he tagged them...For exemple, both Nightwing and DS have tagged the Flash multiple times, but they all have context, some of them had more to do with tactic's and skill, than with speed...also, it's impossible to know, unless stated, how fast was he moving at the time, but we do know that if he was really trying, that would be PIS.

@jashro44: See thats why I hate getting into street level debates lol. Feats can be interpreted either way and are nowhere near as clear cut as higher tiers

Firstly iirc Bruce was kinda explicitly weakened at the time he tried to lift 600 in Batman venom. He has broken through 600 pounds of dirt after being buried alive by the black glove, he has at least one other showing of managing to hold Man bat with his grapnel . So even if he did struggle that one time, that would be a lower showing , no?

As far as stopping the crocodile's jaws goes, firstly that isnt anything beyond a peak human. Grayson has held open the jaws of a killer shark underwater briefly with his efforts, Batman in one of the older pre crisis stories killed a shark by snapping its spine ( hes also done this a couple of times vs various big cats, less so after people learnt about animal rights lol) heck Dr Doom sans armour has killed a lion buck naked, and I wouldnt exactly call him peak human.

The wrestling with animals thing is common enough for street levellers that you dont really stop to wonder just how powerful you have to be to pull that off

And thats another thing I find silly lol . Its when you work in calculations like how much pressure it exerts ans whatnot that the feats border on trying to look for fine details where they dont exist. Does anyone really thing how many psi the writer had in mind while writing that feat as opposed to " Dayum wouldnt it be awesome to have Panther wrestle a croc?"

Because Im sure once we start doing hard calcs for them, feats like bending guns, snapping steel chains, breaking gun barrels in half, ripping free metal restraints are right up there, if not better than holding off a croc's jaws

Personally I feel unless its something obviously way better, like say Peter holding up a subway car, most street level peak humans beyond a certain level of strength have pretty much the same strength

But then again, its so much easier to see the difference between say superman benching the planet and She hulk lifting 90 tons. So I can see why people might think one peak human is better than the other, while I personally feel they are all more or less in the same bracket

Note, this isnt particularly based on anything against you. I think you are a fine debator and didnt even raise most of the issues im digressing about lol . Just a sort of general rant on the issue

Of course, while we are there, though I didnt particularly want to raise the point, Batman did lift a " ton of rubble" with great effort in one of the early no mans land issues

edit: it was shadow of the bat 74

@chuckwolf: dude no just no... cap is a one to two tonner, panther with his herb is a 2 to 4 tonner. Nightwing is not the second best fighter in his universe and he doesn't beat panther. Shiva, dragon, turner, wayne, cain, hawke, drakon, and sensei are just a few that outclass Grayson.

Panther is one of the most skilled fighters in the marvel universe and is super in stats with his herb not to mention one of the best battle strategist in all of comics. He fights higher class foes than this whole list minus slade....He has pressure pointed luke cage who has impentrentable skin and is 60 tonner? He knocks out people like man ape.. grayson has no chance...arguments can be made for shiva and cain because of skill and body reading but not grayson.

Man your estimates on these guy's strengths is way off. Cap is enhanced to the limit of human strength, that is 800lbs in an overhead lift. Panther even with the herb which is what makes him almost as strong as Cap. only reaches 750 lbs. Now the King of the Dead version of Panther does reach the 2 ton limit. But AFAIK this is not that version. Yes, they both have had higher showings but that is due to a little thing called "Adrenaline" you know the stuff that makes little old ladies capable of lifting cars if someone they love is trapped under it.

As for Luke Cage, he's a 25 tonner at best, and that's up from being a 2 tonner earlier in his career. BTW Cages skin isn't "impenetrable" It's just damn tough and bulletproof, it's not like he can tank a sidewinder missile or something the Thing as far better durability, so do Colossus and the Hulk.

If cap and panther had the strength levels you're putting them at they would be classified as "superhuman" and nowhere are they listed as such the are merely "enhanced" meaning the reach the limits of human performance through artificial means.

Deathstroke defeats t'challa

@chuckwolf: they are classified as enhanced to super with panther being the stronger.. @static_shock @jashro44 will have scans and specifics.. I can post scans later but I am on my phone now and my home decided to quit on me last night..

cap is the peak of human evolution not peak human.. he is a 2 tonner at his best

Wait wait, Captain America is a 2 tonner at his best? When? How? Did Cap ever lift 2 tons? I don't think so. Cap can lift about 1000-1200 lbs.