@venomsapprentice: Venom has a tendency to tank attacks as opposed to dodge. I think they can hit him with a sonic weapon. In this fight he will have to move towards 2 targets and I all ready brought up beast and black panther showing up in an air ship so with prep they can fly.
Ock isn't going to be able to tare anyone apart after his arms and pod are destroyed by anti-metal vibranium.
Panther is going to be a little busy, so no destroying of the arms.
Venom may prefer to tank, but he's not stupid. Once he sees sonic weapons he will be moving like a bat out of hell. And once he engages Panther, lets just say that Beast will be on his own.
How is venom going to know its a sonic weapon until after its fired?
@venomsapprentice: Venom has a tendency to tank attacks as opposed to dodge. I think they can hit him with a sonic weapon. In this fight he will have to move towards 2 targets and I all ready brought up beast and black panther showing up in an air ship so with prep they can fly.
Ock isn't going to be able to tare anyone apart after his arms and pod are destroyed by anti-metal vibranium.
Panther is going to be a little busy, so no destroying of the arms.
Venom may prefer to tank, but he's not stupid. Once he sees sonic weapons he will be moving like a bat out of hell. And once he engages Panther, lets just say that Beast will be on his own.
How is venom going to know its a sonic weapon until after its fired?
Becasue Ock will clue him in ahead of time.
"Hey dude. Your weak against Sonics. Guess what they're going to bring to the party."
Also, this is not Venom's first rodeo. If anyone knows what sonic weapons look like, it's him.
@venomsapprentice: Venom has a tendency to tank attacks as opposed to dodge. I think they can hit him with a sonic weapon. In this fight he will have to move towards 2 targets and I all ready brought up beast and black panther showing up in an air ship so with prep they can fly.
Ock isn't going to be able to tare anyone apart after his arms and pod are destroyed by anti-metal vibranium.
Panther is going to be a little busy, so no destroying of the arms.
Venom may prefer to tank, but he's not stupid. Once he sees sonic weapons he will be moving like a bat out of hell. And once he engages Panther, lets just say that Beast will be on his own.
How is venom going to know its a sonic weapon until after its fired?
Becasue Ock will clue him in ahead of time.
"Hey dude. Your weak against Sonics. Guess what they're going to bring to the party."
Also, this is not Venom's first rodeo. If anyone knows what sonic weapons look like, it's him.
How is ock going to know its a sonic weapon? Even in the example you brought up of spider-man firing the sonic gun he ran right at it the first time and didn't dodge...
Read a little more of the debate and since Octavius has shown an intimate familiarity with Peter's tech, including his stealth suit, he could likely devise a similar suit for venom to the one Kaine utilizes, neutralizing sonics.
@venomsapprentice: Venom has a tendency to tank attacks as opposed to dodge. I think they can hit him with a sonic weapon. In this fight he will have to move towards 2 targets and I all ready brought up beast and black panther showing up in an air ship so with prep they can fly.
Ock isn't going to be able to tare anyone apart after his arms and pod are destroyed by anti-metal vibranium.
Panther is going to be a little busy, so no destroying of the arms.
Venom may prefer to tank, but he's not stupid. Once he sees sonic weapons he will be moving like a bat out of hell. And once he engages Panther, lets just say that Beast will be on his own.
How is venom going to know its a sonic weapon until after its fired?
Becasue Ock will clue him in ahead of time.
"Hey dude. Your weak against Sonics. Guess what they're going to bring to the party."
Also, this is not Venom's first rodeo. If anyone knows what sonic weapons look like, it's him.
How is ock going to know its a sonic weapon? Even in the example you brought up of spider-man firing the sonic gun he ran right at it the first time and didn't dodge...
Two words:
DEDUCTIVE REASONING. When your team mate has a very well defined weakness that you know that the enemy knows about, you make preparations. Hang on, do Beast and Panther even know Venom's weaknesses?
And as for how Venom behaved the first time, that was pretty early in his career. He has had plenty of time to get wise.
Team BP can't just rely on sonic weapons. If something goes wrong, which it will, they will have NOTHING to fall back on. Team Venom is stronger than them on every level.
@venomsapprentice: Yes Beast is on the same team as venom right now (secret avengers). So they do know venoms weakness.
@BringnIt said:
Read a little more of the debate and since Octavius has shown an intimate familiarity with Peter's tech, including his stealth suit, he could likely devise a similar suit for venom to the one Kaine utilizes, neutralizing sonics.
I didn't have to. I was able to draw my own conclusions from the OP. Venom has a well known and easily exploitable weakness. Two, in fact. BP and Beast can, and will, be able to take advantage of it. Doc Ock would give them a crap ton of trouble, that's where most of the trouble comes from. However, the combined minds of BP and Beast should be able to take down Doc Ock 6/10 times.
I didn't have to. I was able to draw my own conclusions from the OP. Venom has a well known and easily exploitable weakness. Two, in fact. BP and Beast can, and will, be able to take advantage of it. Doc Ock would give them a crap ton of trouble, that's where most of the trouble comes from. However, the combined minds of BP and Beast should be able to take down Doc Ock 6/10 times.
Venom has survived fire from the Human Torch. And a sonic gun developed by Reed Richards, who is arguably the biggest genius on earth. AT THE SAME TIME. He can handle anything that Panther and Beast have to throw at him.
New word for you: Reed-Richards-Tech-Is-Better-Than-Anything-That-BP-Or-Beast-Could-Ever-EVER-Hope-To-Come-Up-With. It's a long word I know, but at times like this it's worthwhile to know.XD
@ImTheDamnBatman said:
@venomsapprentice Venom surviving Human Torch is PIS at its finest. If you remember correctly, a second sonic blast took out Venom. Team 1 wins.
@venomsapprentice Congratulations, you proved nothing with your last post. I never even brought up that feat from Batman, so it's irrelevant here. Try again.
So, once again, Otto used Peter's stealth suit tech in Ends of Earth. The same stealth suit that is impervious to sonics. What prevents him from utilizing it here to protect Venom? I'm not saying team 2 wins, I still think it could go either way, but I doubt something as simple as sonics is what the battle hinges on.
@venomsapprentice Congratulations, you proved nothing with your last post. I never even brought up that feat from Batman, so it's irrelevant here. Try again.
Id rather not.
@BringnIt said:
So, once again, Otto used Peter's stealth suit tech in Ends of Earth. The same stealth suit that is impervious to sonics. What prevents him from utilizing it here to protect Venom? I'm not saying team 2 wins, I still think it could go either way, but I doubt something as simple as sonics is what the battle hinges on.
I thinks it's as simple as:
A.Can Black Panther defeat Venom
and B.Can Beast defeat Doc Ock.
No and no.
Why am I simplifying? Because any prep that Team 1 uses,will be for neutralizing the strongest member of team 2 (Venom). And any prep that Doc Ock uses, will be for making sure that doesn't happen.
Sonics? Easily fixed. Fire? Venom has tanked worse. Which brings us back to points A and B.
My debating technique is still shakey. Have I done anything to convince you or not?
@venomsapprentice Nah, you haven't. To convince me that team Spidey rogue takes a strong majority, you'd need to show me times T'Challa in particular has prepped against an opponent and failed. He has the resources of the most advanced culture on the planet, he's one of the best minds on the planet, he's been shown to have existing gameplans to take down even people like his wife if she were to go rogue and has a strong history of sound tactics and strategem. Alternatively you could show me times when Octavius has prepped against opponents of T'Challa's intellectual caliber and succeeded and cite specific things he could do. I'm well aware of what Otto can do, but I am also confident that T'Challa can win this for his team as well and Hank while underwhelming to me is certainly no slouch. As I've stated, this could go either way and if I had to pick I'd probably go with the Spidey rogues just due to their physical advantages and lesser morals, but honestly it's a coin flip to me and I doubt I'll be convinced otherwise.
@venomsapprentice Nah, you haven't. To convince me that team Spidey rogue takes a strong majority, you'd need to show me times T'Challa in particular has prepped against an opponent and failed. He has the resources of the most advanced culture on the planet, he's one of the best minds on the planet, he's been shown to have existing gameplans to take down even people like his wife if she were to go rogue and has a strong history of sound tactics and strategem. Alternatively you could show me times when Octavius has prepped against opponents of T'Challa's intellectual caliber and succeeded and cite specific things he could do. I'm well aware of what Otto can do, but I am also confident that T'Challa can win this for his team as well and Hank while underwhelming to me is certainly no slouch. As I've stated, this could go either way and if I had to pick I'd probably go with the Spidey rogues just due to their physical advantages and lesser morals, but honestly it's a coin flip to me and I doubt I'll be convinced otherwise.
He gave the Avengers, who have some of the biggest geniuses in the world, a decent fight. Does that count? To be fair, the opposition hasn't done anything more than me, to show that BP is a better preper than Ock.
@(((Prodigy))) said:
You gave Black Panther prep time? T'Challa probably solos.
@venomsapprentice I never said they did. He actually beat the majority of the Avengers, which was impressive, and Peter only escaped due to help from an unexpected source. He also manipulated the Avengers Academy and beat some other impressive opposition like the Intelligencia during Ends of the Earth and its lead up stories. That said, he did all of that with a team, but it shows his strategic mind and intellect. He's an impressive prepper, no doubt. He has other prep feats to his name that could be used to make a case. However, T'Challa is equally impressive. Some battles just could go either way and a great case can be made both ways, but at the end of the day it's like Batman vs. Cap, it could go either way.
@venomsapprentice Nah, you haven't. To convince me that team Spidey rogue takes a strong majority, you'd need to show me times T'Challa in particular has prepped against an opponent and failed. He has the resources of the most advanced culture on the planet, he's one of the best minds on the planet, he's been shown to have existing gameplans to take down even people like his wife if she were to go rogue and has a strong history of sound tactics and strategem. Alternatively you could show me times when Octavius has prepped against opponents of T'Challa's intellectual caliber and succeeded and cite specific things he could do. I'm well aware of what Otto can do, but I am also confident that T'Challa can win this for his team as well and Hank while underwhelming to me is certainly no slouch. As I've stated, this could go either way and if I had to pick I'd probably go with the Spidey rogues just due to their physical advantages and lesser morals, but honestly it's a coin flip to me and I doubt I'll be convinced otherwise.
He gave the Avengers, who have some of the biggest geniuses in the world, a decent fight. Does that count? To be fair, the opposition hasn't done anything more than me, to show that BP is a better preper than Ock.
@(((Prodigy))) said:
You gave Black Panther prep time? T'Challa probably solos.
You are joking. Right?
Why would I be joking? T'Challa is a freaking beast with prep time.
@venomsapprentice Nah, you haven't. To convince me that team Spidey rogue takes a strong majority, you'd need to show me times T'Challa in particular has prepped against an opponent and failed. He has the resources of the most advanced culture on the planet, he's one of the best minds on the planet, he's been shown to have existing gameplans to take down even people like his wife if she were to go rogue and has a strong history of sound tactics and strategem. Alternatively you could show me times when Octavius has prepped against opponents of T'Challa's intellectual caliber and succeeded and cite specific things he could do. I'm well aware of what Otto can do, but I am also confident that T'Challa can win this for his team as well and Hank while underwhelming to me is certainly no slouch. As I've stated, this could go either way and if I had to pick I'd probably go with the Spidey rogues just due to their physical advantages and lesser morals, but honestly it's a coin flip to me and I doubt I'll be convinced otherwise.
He gave the Avengers, who have some of the biggest geniuses in the world, a decent fight. Does that count? To be fair, the opposition hasn't done anything more than me, to show that BP is a better preper than Ock.
@(((Prodigy))) said:
You gave Black Panther prep time? T'Challa probably solos.
You are joking. Right?
Why would I be joking? T'Challa is a freaking beast with prep time.
I had no idea Panther was that good.
Give me awhile to prepare and I'll find feats for Ock.
@venomsapprentice: The entire Ends of the Earth storyline would count as a very good prep feat for Ock.
I'm not trying to discount at all Ock's genius or skill with prep time. I just think T'Challa is slightly better, for two reasons. 1) Being the king of Wakanda, T'Challa has almost certainly working on forming emergency plans for any superhero or supervillian who looks like they may one day be a threat to Wakanda. He was prepared for Storm. He was prepared for Magneto. After Ock came extremely close to decimating nearly all life on earth during Ends of the Earth, I have no doubt that T'Challa now has him on his list of major potential threats, and has already studied him extensively to learn how best to beat him. 2) Despite Doc Ock's incredible genius, he still has a tendency to do things the old fashioned way. In Ends of the Earth, that made him a bit predictable. Spider-Man knew without a doubt that Ock's lair would have some heavily protected main room with a large control panel and a big button to trigger the doomsday device, and that he wouldn't push that button until Spider-Man had shown up and he had defeated him, proving his superiority. Ock just likes to roll old school like that. He would never be the kind of guy to pull an Ozymandias move and detonate his device before the heroes show up to stop him.
In a nutshell... T'Challa has likely already studied Ock and worked out plans for beating him. Ock, despite his incredible intellect, tends to be a bit predictable in the way he does things.
Yeah, Ock's arrogance is definitely a downside. His lack of morals and his team's considerable physical advantages offsets that. Still say it could go either way.
@venomsapprentice: The entire Ends of the Earth storyline would count as a very good prep feat for Ock. I'm not trying to discount at all Ock's genius or skill with prep time. I just think T'Challa is slightly better, for two reasons. 1) Being the king of Wakanda, T'Challa has almost certainly working on forming emergency plans for any superhero or supervillian who looks like they may one day be a threat to Wakanda. He was prepared for Storm. He was prepared for Magneto. After Ock came extremely close to decimating nearly all life on earth during Ends of the Earth, I have no doubt that T'Challa now has him on his list of major potential threats, and has already studied him extensively to learn how best to beat him. 2) Despite Doc Ock's incredible genius, he still has a tendency to do things the old fashioned way. In Ends of the Earth, that made him a bit predictable. Spider-Man knew without a doubt that Ock's lair would have some heavily protected main room with a large control panel and a big button to trigger the doomsday device, and that he wouldn't push that button until Spider-Man had shown up and he had defeated him, proving his superiority. Ock just likes to roll old school like that. He would never be the kind of guy to pull an Ozymandias move and detonate his device before the heroes show up to stop him. In a nutshell... T'Challa has likely already studied Ock and worked out plans for beating him. Ock, despite his incredible intellect, tends to be a bit predictable in the way he does things.
Damn your good.XD
Gotta log off for now, but when I come back I'm going to solidify my argument.
Good to see you darktiger. You wanna go into more detail?
yeah I do you put two super smart men against doc ock and venom,well dock ock is smart but not venom,so this is what happens,Black panther brings a sonic weapons to take him out then him and beast,beat doc ock in hand to hand combat
Good to see you darktiger. You wanna go into more detail?
yeah I do you put two super smart men against doc ock and venom,well dock ock is smart but not venom,so this is what happens,Black panther brings a sonic weapons to take him out then him and beast,beat doc ock in hand to hand combat
I don't think those 2 can beat Doc Ock. And Venom is tougher then you think.
Good to see you darktiger. You wanna go into more detail?
yeah I do you put two super smart men against doc ock and venom,well dock ock is smart but not venom,so this is what happens,Black panther brings a sonic weapons to take him out then him and beast,beat doc ock in hand to hand combat
I don't think those 2 can beat Doc Ock. And Venom is tougher then you think.
sonic weapons take him out or alot of sound,plus doc ock can't even beat beast and black panther by himself
@venomsapprentice: As much as I would love to keep this going, you'll have to settle for my surrender. Not because I have nothing left to say, but because life is getting really freakin hectic and I'm probably going to have little to no time for internet over the next few weeks.
@venomsapprentice: As much as I would love to keep this going, you'll have to settle for my surrender. Not because I have nothing left to say, but because life is getting really freakin hectic and I'm probably going to have little to no time for internet over the next few weeks.
Cheers :)
Battle of the line. If you understand the reference, that's what just happened.:)
Ock isn't a factor, either Beast or BP can take him out. Venom puts up a fight but should ultimately lose. He isn't overcoming BP with prep
I wouldnt say its a 'no brainer'. Classic Eddie was a monster and could beat BP in an H2H fight...albeit, not easily, but he could. Otto, with prep, really messed up Spidey's life.
And consider the OP; crowded area, morals on. Otto and Eddie free to be aggressive...BP and Beast have to avoid the civilians. Thouhg, i agree with you answer...but, this is a great fight, and can definitely be argued either way.
Ock isn't a factor, either Beast or BP can take him out. Venom puts up a fight but should ultimately lose. He isn't overcoming BP with prep
I wouldnt say its a 'no brainer'. Classic Eddie was a monster and could beat BP in an H2H fight...albeit, not easily, but he could. Otto, with prep, really messed up Spidey's life.
And consider the OP; crowded area, morals on. Otto and Eddie free to be aggressive...BP and Beast have to avoid the civilians. Thouhg, i agree with you answer...but, this is a great fight, and can definitely be argued either way.
BP isn't a bad guy, but he's willing to make tough choices to win. He's about being a king first and protecting Wakanda, being a hero is really a secondary thing to him. He's not Batman sitting up there in an ivory tower with a no kill code. Beast would be the one most concerned about Civilians. BP wouldn't want civilians injured, but he's not going to let them handicap him if that is a strategy Ock is employing to win.
In terms of prep and intellect the advantage is clearly in team 1's favor. Venom's got some pretty clear weaknesses and I don't know how Ock would counter those.
Ock has been more impressive of late, but I wouldn't really put him on par with BP and Beast. Sure he's made Spidey's life hell, but a lot of villains have done that. And he's only beaten Spidey once after countless tries with prep.
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