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#1 Posted by The Rookie (3126 posts) - - Show Bio
who wins this random encounter?
#2 Posted by Vance Astro (91262 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't even know who to say on this one.For the time being i'm going to go with T'Challa and Batman.

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#3 Posted by The_Martian (36984 posts) - - Show Bio

Deathstroke and Shiva should beat Bats and BP down.

#4 Posted by geraldthesloth (33313 posts) - - Show Bio

bats and Bp

#5 Posted by The_MVPs (84694 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm going with Siva and Deathstroke.

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#6 Posted by Static Shock (47329 posts) - - Show Bio

Batman and Black Panther.

#7 Posted by The_MVPs (84694 posts) - - Show Bio

The only advantage Batman has is his belt and that's the first thing Deathstroke would go for. Shiva can hang with Panther in terms of hand to hand combat. Even if you wanna use the suit she can still use grappling (She broke Killer Croc's arm with one hand). Not to mention the suit isn't all some people on the Vine make it out to be.

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#8 Posted by Static Shock (47329 posts) - - Show Bio
Gambler said:
"The only advantage Batman has is his belt and that's the first thing Deathstroke would go for. Shiva can hang with Panther in terms of hand to hand combat. Even if you wanna use the suit she can still use grappling (She broke Killer Croc's arm with one hand). Not to mention the suit isn't all some people on the Vine make it out to be."
If she's close enough to grapple, he's close enough to slash her face off. And, Killer Croc is a jobber.
#9 Posted by The_MVPs (84694 posts) - - Show Bio
Static Shock said:
"Gambler said:
"The only advantage Batman has is his belt and that's the first thing Deathstroke would go for. Shiva can hang with Panther in terms of hand to hand combat. Even if you wanna use the suit she can still use grappling (She broke Killer Croc's arm with one hand). Not to mention the suit isn't all some people on the Vine make it out to be."
If she's close enough to grapple, he's close enough to slash her face off. And, Killer Croc is a jobber."
She has body reading ability/photographic reflexes. She moves like Cassandra Cain does. Could BP slash her face off, sure, could she just as easily dodge it and break his arm, yes. As far as being a jobber you can say that about 80% of all villains, including the ones BP has faced. So do we just disregard his feats as well?
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#10 Posted by Static Shock (47329 posts) - - Show Bio
Gambler said:
"She has body reading ability/photographic reflexes. She moves like Cassandra Cain does. Could BP slash her face off, sure, could she just as easily dodge it and break his arm, yes. As far as being a jobber you can say that about 80% of all villains, including the ones BP has faced. So do we just disregard his feats as well?"
She's been hit before, though. Just like Cassandra. I said it to mean that her breaking Killer Croc's arm doesn't mean anything here. If she wants to get into a Brazilian Jiu-jutsu match with him, she can. He's physically stronger than she is, so even if she tried grapples, it's not like she's gonna be successful at it. She would only be able to break a limb if he allows her to do so.
#11 Edited by The_MVPs (84694 posts) - - Show Bio
Static Shock said:
"Gambler said:
"She has body reading ability/photographic reflexes. She moves like Cassandra Cain does. Could BP slash her face off, sure, could she just as easily dodge it and break his arm, yes. As far as being a jobber you can say that about 80% of all villains, including the ones BP has faced. So do we just disregard his feats as well?"
She's been hit before, though. Just like Cassandra. I said it to mean that her breaking Killer Croc's arm doesn't mean anything here. If she wants to get into a Brazilian Jiu-jutsu match with him, she can. He's physically stronger than she is, so even if she tried grapples, it's not like she's gonna be successful at it. She would only be able to break a limb if he allows her to do so."
Doesn't mean anything? You just said BP is stronger and because of that she wouldn't be able to break a limb. Yet Killer Croc is stronger then she is and it didn't help him any. If you wanna dismiss that feat by all means go ahead, but I see no reason to throw it out simply because you've labeled Killer Croc a jobber. It clearly shows her ability to negate her opponents physically strength. But okay, for the sake of argument. Say Deathstroke takes BP and Shiva takes Batman. Now BP doesn't have a physical advantage and his facing a tactical genius on a superhuman level. Batman was trained by Shiva so I think its safe to assume she's a level above him in terms of hand to hand. And if he goes for the gadgets (knock out gas, flash bang, etc etc) he could just as easily end up harming his own teammate.
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#12 Posted by Vance Astro (91262 posts) - - Show Bio
Gambler said:
"Static Shock said:
"Gambler said:
"She has body reading ability/photographic reflexes. She moves like Cassandra Cain does. Could BP slash her face off, sure, could she just as easily dodge it and break his arm, yes. As far as being a jobber you can say that about 80% of all villains, including the ones BP has faced. So do we just disregard his feats as well?"
She's been hit before, though. Just like Cassandra. I said it to mean that her breaking Killer Croc's arm doesn't mean anything here. If she wants to get into a Brazilian Jiu-jutsu match with him, she can. He's physically stronger than she is, so even if she tried grapples, it's not like she's gonna be successful at it. She would only be able to break a limb if he allows her to do so."
Doesn't mean anything? You just said BP is stronger and because of that she wouldn't be able to break a limb. Yet Killer Croc is stronger then she is and it didn't help him any. If you wanna dismiss that feat by all means go ahead, but I see no reason to throw it out simply because you've labeled Killer Croc a jobber. It clearly shows her ability to negate her opponents physically strength. But okay, for the sake of argument. Say Deathstroke takes BP and Shiva takes Batman. Now BP doesn't have a physical advantage and his facing a tactical genius on a superhuman level. Batman was trained by Shiva so I think its safe to assume she's a level above him in terms of hand to hand. And if he goes for the gadgets (knock out gas, flash bang, etc etc) he could just as easily end up harming his own teammate."
I have to agree with Gambler here.
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#13 Posted by Static Shock (47329 posts) - - Show Bio
Gambler said:
"Doesn't mean anything? You just said BP is stronger and because of that she wouldn't be able to break a limb. Yet Killer Croc is stronger then she is and it didn't help him any. If you wanna dismiss that feat by all means go ahead, but I see no reason to throw it simply because you've labeled Killer Croc a jobber. It clearly shows her ability to negate her opponents physically strength. But okay, for the sake of argument. Say Deathstroke takes BP and Shiva takes Batman. Now BP doesn't have a physical advantage and his facing a tactical genius on a superhuman level. Batman was trained by Shiva so I think its safe to assume she's a level above him in terms of hand to hand. And if he goes for the gadgets (knock out gas, flash bang, etc etc) he could just as easily end up harming his own teammate."
When Shiva broke Croc's arm, was Croc just standing there, or was he having a wrestling match with her? Either way, Panther isn't going to sit there and let her break his arm. The man was able to wrestle a 20-foot alligator with his strength alone, and alligators aren't weak. He did the same against a rhino that weighed over a ton. If you switch up the roles, I'd still give it to team 1. My argument for Black Panther taking on Deathstroke would be the same. Also, based on what I've seen Panther do in comics, Deathstroke doesn't  physically outclass him by much, other than the tactical stuff. I think Batman could take Lady Shiva in hand-to-hand combat. She only trained him due to the fact that he needed to get a feeling for fighting again after his back healed. I don't think it's enough to say she's on a level higher than Batman.
#14 Posted by The_MVPs (84694 posts) - - Show Bio
Static Shock said:
"When Shiva broke Croc's arm, was Croc just standing there, or was he having a wrestling match with her? Either way, Panther isn't going to sit there and let her break his arm.
She hit him three times so fast that he didnt even realize what had happened. (Read the captions)

Killer Croc didnt just stand there. Not sure what gave you that impression. Read the captions. He charged her and before he knew it she had crippled him (I forgot she broke both his legs to. While having one hand tied behind her back).

















Static Shock said:
" The man was able to wrestle a 20-foot alligator with his strength alone, and alligators aren't weak. He did the same against a rhino that weighed over a ton. "
LOL come on man, you wanna call Killer Croc a jobber then turn around and use animal feats? Dr. Doom killed a lion with his bare hands, as did Deathstroke. Batman ripped a leopards jaw off. Animals are nothing but cannon fodder in comics. Cant believe you went there.

Static Shock said:
" Also, based on what I've seen Panther do in comics, Deathstroke doesn't  physically outclass him by much, other than the tactical stuff."
The tactical stuff is a major advanatge. I also wasnt saying Deathstroke was stronger, but you seemed to imply that Shiva loses to BP simply because he's stronger. You havent really given a reason as to why or how he beats Deathstroke, a character he's not physically stronger then. But here's another example of Shiva vs someone who's far superior to her in strength.
She exaplains how she used Supergirl's own strength against her. So even though BP is stronger then she is, in my opinion its a moot point.






















Static Shock said:
" I think Batman could take Lady Shiva in hand-to-hand combat. She only trained him due to the fact that he needed to get a feeling for fighting again after his back healed. I don't think it's enough to say she's on a level higher than Batman."
Okay, maybe that alone isnt enough. Although he explains at the time he believes Shiva is the only person who can help him regain his skills.  But how about Promethus proclaiming Shiva as the 3rd best fighter in the World? (behind Richard Dragon and Bronze Tiger).















She also explains how she learns a dozen new disciplines a year while reinventing herself by discarding styles she feels are no longer up to par.





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#15 Posted by claws (5060 posts) - - Show Bio

batman and black pather

#16 Posted by Static Shock (47329 posts) - - Show Bio

Gonna address your argument later, G. Gotta get ready for work.

#17 Posted by Static Shock (47329 posts) - - Show Bio

Gonna address your argument later, G. Gotta get ready for work.

#18 Posted by The_MVPs (84694 posts) - - Show Bio
Static Shock said:
"Gonna address your argument later, G. Gotta get ready for work."
iight man. Looking forward to continuing this.
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#19 Edited by Static Shock (47329 posts) - - Show Bio
Gambler said:
"Killer Croc didnt just stand there. Not sure what gave you that impression. Read the captions. He charged her and before he knew it she had crippled him (I forgot she broke both his legs to. While having one hand tied behind her back).
According to that scan, it's says that she struck him in order to break his bones. Not that she used a grappling technique to do so. Using the same technique against T'Challa wouldn't work because of his suit.


Gambler said:
"LOL come on man, you wanna call Killer Croc a jobber then turn around and use animal feats? Dr. Doom killed a lion with his bare hands, as did Deathstroke. Batman ripped a leopards jaw off. Animals are nothing but cannon fodder in comics. Cant believe you went there.
I went there to show for his strength. Black Panther doesn't occasionally lift things to measure his strength like other characters do. That's why I brought the alligator and the rhino into consideration, and both of which deliver more power than the animals you named, and I'm gonna show you why in a minute. Also, I'm still under the impression that he's not gonna allow her to break any of his bones that easily.

Wrestles a 20 foot alligator and snaps it's jaws. The average alligator's (up to 14 feet long) jaws generate 2,000 - 3,000 psi (pounds per square inch) of biting force. A normal man cannot generate enough strength to overpower that. The alligator he's facing here is bigger, so it's jaws could be even stronger than a regular alligator's.
#20 Posted by Scorched (136 posts) - - Show Bio

black panther has some pretty damn strong leg muscles to do that

Still i give it to team 2

#21 Posted by Nighthunter (28582 posts) - - Show Bio

ooh nice battle

don't really know

#22 Posted by Static Shock (47329 posts) - - Show Bio

Also, Gamber. The rhino he wrestled. He was able to snap it's vertebrae.

Takes down a 1 1/2 ton rhino with his strength alone, but it leaves him physically exhausted.









































Gambler said:
"The tactical stuff is a major advanatge. I also wasnt saying Deathstroke was stronger, but you seemed to imply that Shiva loses to BP simply because he's stronger. You havent really given a reason as to why or how he beats Deathstroke, a character he's not physically stronger then. But here's another example of Shiva vs someone who's far superior to her in strength.

It is. However, T'Challa is a tactical genius also. He may not have taken down the JLA and the Teen Titans, but he was able to take on the Fantastic Four on his own, and also able to defeat a team of superheroes from South America that supported the aparteid. Remember the argument I made for Black Panther in the Black Panther vs. Deathstroke thread? That argument would still apply here. I don't think Deathstroke could easily figure the applications of T'Challa's suit that fast, despite his increased brain capacity. And, even though Black Panther may not be physically stronger (but he could be close to him), he could still pull out a win. I didn't say that Black Panther would win because he's stronger, because in most H2H fights, it's not always about strength. But, it is, depending on the type of fight. Based on what I've posted, I still don't think she could outwrestle him if it came down to grapples. As for the scan of her tossing away Supergirl, all she did was use her momentum against her due to the fact that Supergirl charged at her. Techniques like that are taught in Aikido, and they are used against bigger and stronger enemies. That's different from handling someone in a wrestling match who is out of your weight and strength class.

Gambler said:
She also explains how she learns a dozen new disciplines a year while reinventing herself by discarding styles she feels are no longer up to par.





"


OK. I remember this. She could be a better fighter based on skill. But, is learning newer styles a year, and discarding old ones enough to say she could beat Batman in a fight? Maybe. Maybe not. However, Bronze Tiger is supposed to be at the top of his league, but he was defeated (or stalemated, from what I can remember) by Batman. Could they possibly be equals? Maybe. LOL. As for the whole body reading things, I've seen Black Panther anticipate/read his enemies moves and dodge accordingly. He does it a lot. It's almost safe to say that he has a watered down version of the ability that Shiva has, but not so much as to where Shiva would dodge every attack coming from him. He could always read and predict her movements also. I don't think it would be hard for him.



#23 Posted by Scorched (136 posts) - - Show Bio
Static Shock said:
"Also, Gamber. The rhino he wrestled. He was able to snap it's vertebrae.

Takes down a 1 1/2 ton rhino with his strength alone, but it leaves him physically exhausted.









































Gambler said:
"The tactical stuff is a major advanatge. I also wasnt saying Deathstroke was stronger, but you seemed to imply that Shiva loses to BP simply because he's stronger. You havent really given a reason as to why or how he beats Deathstroke, a character he's not physically stronger then. But here's another example of Shiva vs someone who's far superior to her in strength.

It is. However, T'Challa is a tactical genius also. He may not have taken down the JLA and the Teen Titans, but he was able to take on the Fantastic Four on his own, and also able to defeat a team of superheroes from South America that supported the aparteid. Remember the argument I made for Black Panther in the Black Panther vs. Deathstroke thread? That argument would still apply here. I don't think Deathstroke could easily figure the applications of T'Challa's suit that fast, despite his increased brain capacity. And, even though Black Panther may not be physically stronger (but he could be close to him), he could still pull out a win. I didn't say that Black Panther would win because he's stronger, because in most H2H fights, it's not always about strength. But, it is, depending on the type of fight. Based on what I've posted, I still don't think she could outwrestle him if it came down to grapples. As for the scan of her tossing away Supergirl, all she did was use her momentum against her due to the fact that Supergirl charged at her. Techniques like that are taught in Aikido, and they are used against bigger and stronger enemies. That's different from handling someone in a wrestling match who is out of your weight and strength class.

Gambler said:
She also explains how she learns a dozen new disciplines a year while reinventing herself by discarding styles she feels are no longer up to par.





"


OK. I remember this. She could be a better fighter based on skill. But, is learning newer styles a year, and discarding old ones enough to say she could beat Batman in a fight? Maybe. Maybe not. However, Bronze Tiger is supposed to be at the top of his league, but he was defeated (or stalemated, from what I can remember) by Batman. Could they possibly be equals? Maybe. LOL. As for the whole body reading things, I've seen Black Panther anticipate/read his enemies moves and dodge accordingly. He does it a lot. It's almost safe to say that he has a watered down version of the ability that Shiva has, but not so much as to where Shiva would dodge every attack coming from him. He could always read and predict her movements also. I don't think it would be hard for him.



"
First of all the FF4 are chumps and would be nothing without Reed Richards

But other then that I can agree with everything else here, although I don't know who would win though

BTW Does BP hate animals or something ?
#24 Posted by Static Shock (47329 posts) - - Show Bio
Scorched said:
"First of all the FF4 are chumps and would be nothing without Reed Richards

But other then that I can agree with everything else here, although I don't know who would win though

BTW Does BP hate animals or something ?"
The Fantastic Four had Reed with them when T'Challa was owning them. And, no. He doesn't hate animals. But, if it's rampaging about, he has to kill it.
#25 Posted by Secret Turchin Man (1852 posts) - - Show Bio

I think theam 2. Because even though Bruce one hitter quittered Shiva. I have seen Deathstroke beat him down, and quite frankly I think Panther would have a hard time with either, while Slade on top of his game would have a hard time with neither.

#26 Posted by Scorched (136 posts) - - Show Bio
Static Shock said:
"Scorched said:
"First of all the FF4 are chumps and would be nothing without Reed Richards

But other then that I can agree with everything else here, although I don't know who would win though

BTW Does BP hate animals or something ?"
The Fantastic Four had Reed with them when T'Challa was owning them. And, no. He doesn't hate animals. But, if it's rampaging about, he has to kill it."
yeah but imma saying that they are nothing without reed cuz hes teh brainz of the fantaztic quadros
#27 Posted by Static Shock (47329 posts) - - Show Bio

Where's G?

#28 Edited by The_MVPs (84694 posts) - - Show Bio
Static Shock said:
"According to that scan, it's says that she struck him in order to break his bones. Not that she used a grappling technique to do so. Using the same technique against T'Challa wouldn't work because of his suit.
"
According to Karnack Black Panther is vulnerable at the knees, elbows, groin, wrists, and shoulders. Also I've seen Captain America jaw jack Panther and the suit did nothing to protect Panther. There's a major difference between what the suit is listed as doing, and what its actually been shown to do.

Static Shock said:
"It is. However, T'Challa is a tactical genius also. He may not have taken down the JLA and the Teen Titans, but he was able to take on the Fantastic Four on his own, and also able to defeat a team of superheroes from South America that supported the aparteid. Remember the argument I made for Black Panther in the Black Panther vs. Deathstroke thread? That argument would still apply here. I don't think Deathstroke could easily figure the applications of T'Challa's suit that fast, despite his increased brain capacity. And, even though Black Panther may not be physically stronger (but he could be close to him), he could still pull out a win. I didn't say that Black Panther would win because he's stronger, because in most H2H fights, it's not always about strength. But, it is, depending on the type of fight. Based on what I've posted, I still don't think she could outwrestle him if it came down to grapples. As for the scan of her tossing away Supergirl, all she did was use her momentum against her due to the fact that Supergirl charged at her. Techniques like that are taught in Aikido, and they are used against bigger and stronger enemies. That's different from handling someone in a wrestling match who is out of your weight and strength class. "

He may be a tactical genius, but Deathstroke is a tactical genius on a Superhuman level. Thats like comparing Captain America's agility to that of Spiderman. Its on a whole nother level. Deathstroke doesnt need to figure out the applications of his suit. BP's been hurt while wearing the suit on more then one occasion. When I said she could grapple with him I should have clarified that I meant submissions/jiu jitsu, not wrestling. She doesnt need to "handle" him in order to pull off any number of submission type manuavers. But the technique of using someone's momentum against them is the same, whether their heavier or not. I'd say just about every character Shiva has ever fought has outweighed her with the exciption of her daughter. So BP being heavier doesnt really matter. Its nothing she hasnt faced before. In fact, if it wasnt for the suit, BP wouldnt be anything she hasnt faced before.

Static Shock said:
"OK. I remember this. She could be a better fighter based on skill. But, is learning newer styles a year, and discarding old ones enough to say she could beat Batman in a fight? Maybe. Maybe not. However, Bronze Tiger is supposed to be at the top of his league, but he was defeated (or stalemated, from what I can remember) by Batman. Could they possibly be equals? Maybe. LOL. As for the whole body reading things, I've seen Black Panther anticipate/read his enemies moves and dodge accordingly. He does it a lot. It's almost safe to say that he has a watered down version of the ability that Shiva has, but not so much as to where Shiva would dodge every attack coming from him. He could always read and predict her movements also. I don't think it would be hard for him."
In "Death in the Family" (a younger and less experienced Shiva) gets the better of Batman until Robin (Jason Todd) jumps in and tilts the fight in Batman's favor. Although in the Superman/Batman comics years later, Batman one shots her. I say its bullsh!t but you can draw your own conclusion. As far as Bronze Tiger goes, it took him along with David Cain and several members of the League of Assassins to beat Shiva before she was the badass she is now. Deathstroke has also held his own against Bronze Tiger. I think its a big leap to compare BP's anticipation to Shiva's ability to predict her opponents moves before they happen. If there's something to suggest he can actually do this on panel (like the scan below) then I'll give it to you. Black Panther couldn't even predict Captain America's moves and he's fought him a couple different times now, same with the Red Skull and Killmonger. I haven't read much BP but what I have read never suggested he was reading people's body language or anticipating what moves they would use before they used them.















As you can see I didn't address any of the animal scans because honestly I think their pointless. Their simply there as canon fodder. BP can wrestle a Rhino yet cant wrestle Cap? He can take it to a Croc but Red Skull man handled him?  But I will say this, read the very first yellow strip at the top of the Croc scan. If a Croc's teeth can rip his suit, whats stopping Deathstroke's blade from doing the same?







 
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#29 Edited by Static Shock (47329 posts) - - Show Bio
Gambler said:
"According to Karnack Black Panther is vulnerable at the knees, elbows, groin, wrists, and shoulders. Also I've seen Captain America jaw jack Panther and the suit did nothing to protect Panther. There's a major difference between what the suit is listed as doing, and what its actually been shown to do.
True, but that doesn't mean he would have been able to exploit those weaknesses. He would simply have to strike the joints to break. However, the suit would protect him still. Captain America may have jaw jacked Panther (from Civil War, right?) but it's not like he dealt any serious damage on him. And, the fight as a whole wasn't even a real fight. The suit itself was able to withstand hits from the Hulk, Iron Man, and Namor. Killmonger's blade snapped against the suit when he tried to stab him. Why would punches and kicks work? With that being said, Karnak wouldn't have been able to break any of Panther's bones if he wanted to. I can agree on the suit's inconsistency, though. I'm going by with the suit is made to do. Not by the way different writers portray it. You may have seen it get torn here and there, but there are instances of the suit doing what it's made to do. The latter holds more water.

Gambler said:
"He may be a tactical genius, but Deathstroke is a tactical genius on a Superhuman level. Thats like comparing Captain America's agility to that of Spiderman. Its on a whole nother level. Deathstroke doesnt need to figure out the applications of his suit. BP's been hurt while wearing the suit on more then one occasion. When I said she could grapple with him I should have clarified that I meant submissions/jiu jitsu, not wrestling. She doesnt need to "handle" him in order to pull off any number of submission type manuavers. But the technique of using someone's momentum against them is the same, whether their heavier or not. I'd say just about every character Shiva has ever fought has outweighed her with the exciption of her daughter. So BP being heavier doesnt really matter. Its nothing she hasnt faced before. In fact, if it wasnt for the suit, BP wouldnt be anything she hasnt faced before.

He would have to. Deathstroke is in a random battle here. He's not going to think to use grapples that quickly. And, it's true that BP has been hurt while wearing the suit. But, are you counting the times he was taking legitimate damage (slashing against the grain), or the times the suit was torn and/or written inconsistently? Blunt force isn't going to work. When T'Challa fought Iron Man in vol. 3, he stated that he was well aware of what the suit is able to do, and had to resort to choking him out to actually hurt the Panther because he knew blunt force wouldn't work against him. My point is that Deathstroke isn't going to readily figure out what the suit's about before he decides to use grappling techniques. Grappling techniques, even for Deathstroke, would be fatal anyway since T'Challa has weapons that he could use close range. The whole submission/jiu-jutsu thing falls under all of that, too. In a way. All of them involve grappling. I honestly think that getting into a jiu-jutsu match with him isn't going to be simple for her for the same reasons above, and he's stronger than her, too. T'Challa being heavier than her wasn't my point, though. I was just explaining what Aikido was all about. But, it's about using a person's momentum against them, T'Challa can do the same thing. If Shiva wants to use grapples to take him down, he could resort to the same method, and employ other things, like nerve pinches and such.

Gambler said:
"In "Death in the Family" (a younger and less experienced Shiva) gets the better of Batman until Robin (Jason Todd) jumps in and tilts the fight in Batman's favor. Although in the Superman/Batman comics years later, Batman one shots her. I say its bullsh!t but you can draw your own conclusion. As far as Bronze Tiger goes, it took him along with David Cain and several members of the League of Assassins to beat Shiva before she was the badass she is now. Deathstroke has also held his own against Bronze Tiger. I think its a big leap to compare BP's anticipation to Shiva's ability to predict her opponents moves before they happen. If there's something to suggest he can actually do this on panel (like the scan below) then I'll give it to you. Black Panther couldn't even predict Captain America's moves and he's fought him a couple different times now, same with the Red Skull and Killmonger. I haven't read much BP but what I have read never suggested he was reading people's body language or anticipating what moves they would use before they used them.

As you can see I didn't address any of the animal scans because honestly I think their pointless. They're simply their as canon fodder. BP can wrestle a Rhino yet cant wrestle Cap? He can take it to a Croc but Red Skull man handled him?  But I will say this, read the very first yellow strip at the top of the Croc scan. If a Croc's teeth can rip his suit, whats stopping Deathstroke's blade from doing the same.
I don't think the animal scans should be dismissed, whether you think they are cannon fodder or not. As for Deathstroke's blade ripping through his suit, I never dismissed that nor did I say it wasn't possible. But, I do remember saying in another thread that T'Challa could destroy the sword using his anti-metal claws. The crocodile's teeth weren't ripping through the suit, but the scales were. Of course, they would have to ripping against the suit for it to tear. It's something I could understand since he was wrestling the croc, and moving his body against it, it would only make sense that its scales could do that. As for the Cap fight, I've addressed it already. It wasn't a real fight, and they weren't even wrestling. The Red Skull fight, I've addressed in another thread also. T'Challa had a brain aneurysm at the time he fought Red Skull in Avengers: Red Zone. It wasn't explicitly stated in the comic like it was in his ongoing series at the time, but the same Panther from vol. 3 had to have been carried over, anyway. Fact of the matter is, T'Challa wasn't healthy at the time and a brain aneurysm could have effected the way he fought in that issue. And, again, that wasn't a wrestling match. They were just throwing punches. And, again, the scans are just there to show his strength level. As for Shiva's effectiveness in grappling/jiu-jutsu/etc., I haven't really seen anything that would suggest she would be successful against T'Challa if grappling match of some sort would arise. You may think the crocodile and the rhino are cannon fodder, but I haven't seen Shiva grapple, submit, or wrestle anything as powerful as those two things. There's a difference between a fistfight and grappling match of any sort.

As for the body reading thing, I'll concede. But, it's not like Shiva is unpredictable to the point where T'Challa cannot fight her or anticipate her moves, and it's not like she can't be dodged. She may be able to read moves before they happen, but how reliable is that ability? It could be considerable, but not 100%.
#30 Posted by The_MVPs (84694 posts) - - Show Bio
Static Shock said:
"True, but that doesn't mean he would have been able to exploit those weaknesses. He would simply have to strike the joints to break. However, the suit would protect him still. Captain America may have jaw jacked Panther (from Civil War, right?) but it's not like he dealt any serious damage on him. And, the fight as a whole wasn't even a real fight. The suit itself was able to withstand hits from the Hulk, Iron Man, and Namor. Killmonger's blade snapped against the suit when he tried to stab him. Why would punches and kicks work? With that being said, Karnak wouldn't have been able to break any of Panther's bones if he wanted to. I can agree on the suit's inconsistency, though. I'm going by with the suit is made to do. Not by the way different writers portray it. You may have seen it get torn here and there, but that are instances of the suit doing what it's made to do. The latter holds more water.


The fight may not have been serious but the punch was. It didn't cause any significant damage but from the artists depiction Black Panther clearly felt it. Punches and kicks would work simply because they have in the past. Besides the Captain America shot, Killmonger, Red Skull, Skrulls, etc etc have used kicks and punches effectively. The inconsistency of the suit is a major problem for me. Even in one of the scans you used as a strength feat clearly states how a Croc's scales tore and cut his suit. I don't see how you can count one feat as credible while in the same scan dismiss another. Your right about Killmonger's blade breaking, but you didnt mention how BP was getting his ass kicked (hand to hand) before that. Kicks, Punches, and Leg sweeps were all affective against him. It wasnt until Killmonger tried to stab him in the heart that his blade broke. (which really doesnt make sense. Its strong enough to break a blade yet punches and kicks werent absorbed).

Static Shock said:
"He would have to. And, it's true that BP has been hurt while wearing the suit. But, are you counting the times he was taking legitimate damage (slashing against the grain), or the times the suit was torn and/or written inconsistently? Blunt force isn't going to work. When T'Challa fought Iron Man in vol. 3, he stated that he was well aware of what the suit is able to do, and had to resort to choking him out to actually hurt the Panther because he knew blunt force wouldn't work against him. My point is that Deathstroke isn't going to readily figure out what the suit's about before he decides to use grappling techniques. Grappling techniques, even for Deathstroke, would be fatal anyway since T'Challa has weapons that he could use close range. The whole submission/jiu-jutsu thing falls under all of that, too. In a way. All of them involve grappling. I honestly think that getting into a jiu-jutsu match with him isn't going to be simple for her for the same reasons above, and he's stronger than her, too. T'Challa being heavier than her wasn't my point, though. I was just explaining what Aikido was all about. But, it's about using a person's momentum against them, T'Challa can do the same thing.

"
If BP can be hurt while wearing the suit then Deathstroke wouldn't need to know the applications of it in order to inflect damage. I don't see how it can be inconsistent writing when its consistently been shown to rip and tare. As far as getting in close being fatal to Deathstroke, besides his healing factor he also sports a highly durable armor. Its nothing like BP's but its something. And just cause he gets in close doesn't mean he cant out maneuver Black Panther and take him down. How long would it take a superhuman intellect to figure out BP's suit is resistant to blunt force? I would say a matter of seconds once the fight starts. If Iron Man is able to choke out BP then why wouldn't Deathstroke or Shiva? I can see him overpowering Shiva in some if not most circumstances, I'll give you that. But for a master of all forms of hand to hand combat its not a stretch to believe she can negate his strength, fighters do it all the time. I never said it would be simple, but it is a legitimate tactic.

Static Shock
said:
"
I don't think the animal scans should be dismissed, whether you think they are cannon fodder or not. As for Deathstroke's blade ripping through his suit, I never dismissed that nor did I say it wasn't possible. But, I do remember saying in another thread that T'Challa could destroy the sword using his anti-metal claws. The crocodile's teeth weren't ripping through the suit, but the scales were. Of course, they would have to ripping against the suit for it to tear. It's something I could understand since he was wrestling the croc, and moving his body against it, it would only make sense that its scales could do that. As for the Cap fight, I've addressed it already. It wasn't a real fight, and they weren't even wrestling. The Red Skull fight, I've addressed in another thread also. T'Challa had a brain aneurysm at the time he fought Red Skull in Avengers: Red Zone. It wasn't explicitly stated in the comic like it was in his ongoing series at the time, but the same Panther from vol. 3 had to have been carried over, anyway. Fact of the matter is, T'Challa wasn't healthy at the time and a brain aneurysm could have effected the way he fought in that issue. And, again, that wasn't a wrestling match. They were just throwing punches. And, again, the scans are just there to show his strength level. As for Shiva's effectiveness in grappling/jiu-jutsu/etc., I haven't really seen anything that would suggest she would be successful against T'Challa if grappling match some sort would arise. You may think the crocodile and the rhino are cannon fodder, but I haven't seen Shiva grapple, submit, or wrestle anything as powerful as those two things. There's a difference between a fistfight and grappling match of any sort.

As for the body reading thing, I'll concede. But, it's not like Shiva is unpredictable to the point where T'Challa cannot fight her or anticipate her moves, and it's not like she can't be dodged. She may be able to read moves before they happen, but how reliable is that ability? It could be considerable, but not 100%.
"
I don't know, to me animal feats are.....just a wow factor. Like, "oh wow BP took down a Rhino with his bare hands" yet wheres this strength when he fights normal characters? To me its simply for the story and not an accurate measure of his strength. (that's just my opinion) As for having a brain aneurysm when he fought Red Skull that wouldn't have mattered in terms of his suit getting torn, or the fact that he was hurt by punches. His motor skills may have been affected but according to you, the suit should have absorbed all the punishment anyway, but it didn't.  According to BP's page he only has enhanced strength, your making it seem like he has superhuman strength. Just cause Shiva has never been shown wrestling a rhino doesn't mean she couldn't submit or break BP's arm, wrist, leg, etc etc. Like I said, I don't see those as accurate depictions of his strength. No one said anything about a fistfight being the same as grappling. Not sure were you got that from. But the point remains that smaller fighters can and do submit larger/stronger fighters on a daily basis. Hell even BP broke the arm of a Skrull who was stronger then he was. You've kinda already proven my point for me. BP took down that croc and Rhino, both stronger then he is correct? It just goes to show what a skilled and knowledgeable fighter can do to negate his or her's opponents strength. Just cause its not in a scan doesn't mean its not viable.

As for Shiva's ability to know an opponents move before it happens, lets just say its more consistent that BP's suit.

I also feel like we've completely skipped over Batman. Deathstroke we already know can handle him and from his own words Shiva is a better fighter. What happens if and when he goes down? Now its two on one.


Moderator
#31 Edited by Static Shock (47329 posts) - - Show Bio
Gambler said:
"The fight may not have been serious but the punch was. It didn't cause any significant damage but from the artists depiction Black Panther clearly felt it. Punches and kicks would work simply because they have in the past. Besides the Captain America shot, Killmonger, Red Skull, Skrulls, etc etc have used kicks and punches effectively. The inconsistency of the suit is a major problem for me. Even in one of the scans you used as a strength feat clearly states how a Croc's scales tore and cut his suit. I don't see how you can count one feat as credible while in the same scan dismiss another. Your right about Killmonger's blade breaking, but you didnt mention how BP was getting his ass kicked (hand to hand) before that. Kicks, Punches, and Leg sweeps were all affective against him. It wasnt until Killmonger tried to stab him in the heart that his blade broke. (which really doesnt make sense. Its strong enough to break a blade yet punches and kicks werent absorbed).
It's stated in comics that the suit only tears if slashed against the grain. Blunt force will not tear the suit. And, it if does, then the suit isn't portrayed the way it should. Captain America punching him in that doesn't mean anything. He may have hit him, but it doesn't look like he hurt him. Honestly, if blades, punches from Hulk, Namor and Iron Man don't work on the suit, then why would you take into account that others such as Killmonger and Red Skull can tear it? Are you gonna take into account the inconsistency of the suit of what it really can do? You make it seem as if the suit never held up to the way it was made to be, when that isn't the case.

Gambler said:
"If BP can be hurt while wearing the suit then Deathstroke wouldn't need to know the applications of it in order to inflect damage. I don't see how it can be inconsistent writing when its consistently been shown to rip and tare. As far as getting in close being fatal to Deathstroke, besides his healing factor he also sports a highly durable armor. Its nothing like BP's but its something. And just cause he gets in close doesn't mean he cant out maneuver Black Panther and take him down. How long would it take a superhuman intellect to figure out BP's suit is resistant to blunt force? I would say a matter of seconds once the fight starts. If Iron Man is able to choke out BP then why wouldn't Deathstroke or Shiva? I can see him overpowering Shiva in some if not most circumstances, I'll give you that. But for a master of all forms of hand to hand combat its not a stretch to believe she can negate his strength, fighters do it all the time. I never said it would be simple, but it is a legitimate tactic. 

Yes, he would. Unless you want to believe that people like Red Skull could get through the suit before Namor can. Prometheum armor (from what I hear) isn't going to proect him from claws that break down other metals on contact. T'Challa's claws would rip through his armor like butter. And, the suit discharges electricity also, not to mention that he has energy daggers that can kill with one stab. Even with superhuman intellect, it would take longer than that to figure out what the suit does. Iron Man was able to choke him out due to the fact that he is many, many times stronger than T'Challa is with his armor on. All he did was wrap his hand around his neck. T'Challa was unable to use his anti-metal claws at the time because the armor that Tony was wearing protected him from vibranium and caused a chain reaction to T'Challa's suit, dealing damage to himself in the process. Deathstroke choking out T'Challa wouldn't be as simple for him as it was for Iron Man, simply because Deathstroke isn't as strong as Iron Man. The same goes for Shiva. I don't even think Deathstroke is that much stronger than T'Challa anyway.

Gambler said:
"I don't know, to me animal feats are.....just a wow factor. Like, "oh wow BP took down a Rhino with his bare hands" yet wheres this strength when he fights normal characters? To me its simply for the story and not an accurate measure of his strength. (that's just my opinion) As for having a brain aneurysm when he fought Red Skull that wouldn't have mattered in terms of his suit getting torn, or the fact that he was hurt by punches. His motor skills may have been affected but according to you, the suit should have absorbed all the punishment anyway, but it didn't.  According to BP's page he only has enhanced strength, your making it seem like he has superhuman strength. Just cause Shiva has never been shown wrestling a rhino doesn't mean she couldn't submit or break BP's arm, wrist, leg, etc etc. Like I said, I don't see those as accurate depictions of his strength. No one said anything about a fistfight being the same as grappling. Not sure were you got that from. But the point remains that smaller fighters can and do submit larger/stronger fighters on a daily basis. Hell even BP broke the arm of a Skrull who was stronger then he was. You've kinda already proven my point for me. BP took down that croc and Rhino, both stronger then he is correct? It just goes to show what a skilled and knowledgeable fighter can do to negate his or her's opponents strength. Just cause its not in a scan doesn't mean its not viable.

As for Shiva's ability to know an opponents move before it happens, lets just say its more consistent that BP's suit.

I also feel like we've completely skipped over Batman. Deathstroke we already know can handle him and from his own words Shiva is a better fighter. What happens if and when he goes down? Now its two on one.


"

The brain aneurysm was mentioned due to T'Challa's health during the fight. It has nothing to do with his suit, nor did I say it did. I've addressed the suit already, so I'll skip that part. On BP's page, the term 'enhanced' is used interchangeably for peak-human and slightly superhuman characters. They say it all the time for Captain America, yet I've seen him do several things that would be considered slightly superhuman. When Moon Knight had his moon-based powers, he also had enhanced strength, but it's stated that he could lift up to 2 tons under a full moon. That's superhuman. The animal feats for Black Panther are legit to me. It's not the first time he's wasted a rhino successfully. And, you'd have to be pretty strong to break a crocodile's jaws while it's bearing down 2000-3000 psi on you. Even in one of his comics, it's stated that his abilities are 'supra-normal'. Supra- is just another prefix for super. Sounds more than just peak-human to me. If he wasn't borderline superhuman, he wouldn't be able to do the following...

Removes chains from the wall.





































Snaps a machine gun in half. Normal men can't do this.

























Uses his leg muscles to break the chains bounding him...



Destroys the whole wooden wheel with his strength...
























































Pulls down a palm tree, causing it to bend and holds it there to use it as....
























































A catapult.



































































































As for the opportunity to break one of BP's bones, she can try. But, it's safe to say that because T'Challa is physically stronger than she is, he's more likely to negate her own strength and break her bones before she could do the same to him. I mentioned the difference between a fistfight and wresting match because you said that it didn't make sense for T'Challa to wrestle with those said animals, and not be able to do the same against Red Skull and Captain America (both of which are his equals) when he never wrestled against them (not saying he didn't fight them).  

As for Shiva's body-reading ability being more consistent then T'Challa's suit (LOL. Agreed)., it seems like you're agreeing to the suit being written inconsistently. Right?

If Batman goes down, then T'Challa isn't going to win. But, I think a case can be made for Batman to beat Deathstroke. I think.... :)

 
#32 Posted by The_MVPs (84694 posts) - - Show Bio

I give up. I already know I'm not going to change my mind, or yours. I feel we're just going in circles about Black Panther's suit and strength. Those scans are pretty old and probably from the same 1970'ish book. Has BP performed any strength feats of that caliber in recent years? I guess its a matter of opinion and personal preference when it comes to what the suit is said to do, and what its shown to do. Has BP been hurt by a punch or kick while wearing the suit? Yes. So why couldn't Deathstroke or Shiva do it? Has the suit been cut or torn? Yes. So why couldn't they do it? I don't think Batman can take Deathstroke cause he's never really done it (except for one time and its debatable whether or not Slade was de-powered at the time).  You've made several great points and owned this debate. But I fear my bias wont allow me to concede the BP suit discussion.

Moderator
#33 Posted by The Rookie (3126 posts) - - Show Bio

some good ol debating right here

#34 Posted by Static Shock (47329 posts) - - Show Bio
Gambler said:
"I give up. I already know I'm not going to change my mind, or yours. I feel we're just going in circles about Black Panther's suit and strength. Those scans are pretty old and probably from the same 1970'ish book. Has BP performed any strength feats of that caliber in recent years? I guess its a matter of opinion and personal preference when it comes to what the suit is said to do, and what its shown to do. Has BP been hurt by a punch or kick while wearing the suit? Yes. So why couldn't Deathstroke or Shiva do it? Has the suit been cut or torn? Yes. So why couldn't they do it? I don't think Batman can take Deathstroke cause he's never really done it (except for one time and its debatable whether or not Slade was de-powered at the time).  You've made several great points and owned this debate. But I fear my bias wont allow me to concede the BP suit discussion.

"
I can agree that the scans are old, but Marvel has never had a continuity reboot, so it's still valid. If he's been hurt by a punch or kick while wearing the suit, then the suit is written inconsistently. I never said that Deathstroke couldn't cut the suit with his blade. If he tried to stab him, then it wouldn't work. But, if he slashes him, then it would. What I did say was that T'Challa could destroy the sword with his anti-metal claws. As for Shiva cutting the suit, how would she do it? She doesn't carry a sword normally, does she?

But, it's whatever, though. I was gonna co-sign with you earlier, but I wanted to debate with you, anyway. I haven't had a debate like this in a minute. LOL.
#35 Edited by Jayc1324 (12344 posts) - - Show Bio

@Gambler batman beat shiva in a death in the family

#36 Posted by Jayc1324 (12344 posts) - - Show Bio

@gambler: bats beat shiva in a death in the family. And i think you are underestimating him. He is not just gonna let deathstroke rip off his belt. Also he knoes 127 martial arts

#37 Posted by jashro44 (22266 posts) - - Show Bio

@jayc1324 said:

@Gambler batman beat shiva in a death in the family

To be fair it was fairly even till Jason interfered. I agree team one does win though.

#38 Posted by The_MVPs (84694 posts) - - Show Bio

@jayc1324 said:

@Gambler batman beat shiva in a death in the family

Only after Jason Todd interfered.

Moderator
#39 Edited by Supermanwithatan01 (3748 posts) - - Show Bio

Shiva fights with no hesitation to kill, Bruce fights while attempting not to kill. Shivas a badass but she's never beaten Bruce. Theres been a good Lady Shiva vs Batman thread that conditions the battle to no morals, it was generally agreed he would win. He's the more skilled fighter IMO. Anyway, because of his suit and skill on par with Wayne, I say T'challa defeats Slade after an epic battle then Wayne defeats Shiva after a good fight.

Edit: here are the 2 battle threads I was referring to. Although there was dispute over Bruce vs Cassie on who's superior..

http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles-7/batman-vs-lady-shiva-532004/

And http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles-7/batman-vs-lady-shiva-vs-cassie-cain-read-635325/

#40 Posted by Jayc1324 (12344 posts) - - Show Bio

@gambler: he beat her in superman/batman too. And batman almost beat Prometheus, while shiva lost to one of Prometheus' students

#41 Posted by dondave (37989 posts) - - Show Bio

Team 1

Online
#42 Posted by laflux (16218 posts) - - Show Bio
#43 Edited by The_MVPs (84694 posts) - - Show Bio

@jayc1324 said:

@gambler: he beat her in superman/batman too. And batman almost beat Prometheus, while shiva lost to one of Prometheus' students

When you're reaching for the Superman/Batman Loeb issue you've lost me. And ABC logic has its uses in certain circumstances but seldom if ever really means anything.

Edit: Just wanna add this debate is over 4years old. I have no real interest in sparking it back up. I concede team one would win but not because of any points that had been made before, or since, it started.

Moderator
#44 Posted by Jayc1324 (12344 posts) - - Show Bio

Batman stalemating Prometheus shows that he has a higher level of skill than shiva

#45 Posted by Charlemagne (6969 posts) - - Show Bio

@jayc1324 said:

Batman stalemating Prometheus shows that he has a higher level of skill than shiva

Who beat who can be important but it should never be the entire foundation of your argument. It never holds up on its own cause characters beat and lose to people they shouldnt all the time. I'll give you a perfect example. By your logic Lady Shiva is Faster then Superman simply because she was able to stalemate a character who Superman couldnt lay a finger on. Now does that sound like legit logic to you? Sounds rather silly to me.

#46 Posted by CalebHara (2329 posts) - - Show Bio

Team 1 without a doubt. Shiva is a weak link here.

#47 Posted by giantsfan576 (1095 posts) - - Show Bio

Oldie but goodie. Probably team 1.

#48 Posted by Spideysense44 (3467 posts) - - Show Bio

Gonna go Black panther and Batman << can we all just sit and imagine how great of a team they would be

#49 Posted by The_Titan_Lord (5818 posts) - - Show Bio

Team 1 has this.

#50 Posted by Wolverine08 (42841 posts) - - Show Bio

BP and Batman for the win!