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#1 Edited by Ferro Vida (34597 posts) - - Show Bio

East vs. West, pre-death Silver Samurai, Dane Whitman as the Black Knight
 
Fight takes place in St. Peter's Square at mid day. There are no civilians present, but Faiza Hussain and Wolverine will serve as referees. 
 
The set up is very simple. Dane is on a quest to learn the mysteries of the Ebony Blade. Silver Samurai claims to know something about the sword, but will only reveal what he knows if Dane can best him in a duel. But if SS wins we gets the Ebony Blade as a prize. As every other lead he has chased down has been a dead end, Dane agrees.  
 
Both are wearing their usual armour. Dane has a steel shield and the Ebony Blade. Samurai has twenty shurikens, an adamantium katana, and an adamantium wakizashi. 
 
Morals are on, victory is by KO, incapacitation, or surrender. Dismemberment is allowed. Dane will not kill SS because he needs information, and because of the enchantment on the Ebony Blade Dane cannot die. 
 
Who wins?  
 


      

#2 Edited by KainScion (2973 posts) - - Show Bio

but if dane cannot die, does that mean that he gets some sort of endurance boost or something? because imo thats the only way black knight can one up ss. he is too good.

#3 Posted by Ferro Vida (34597 posts) - - Show Bio
@KainScion: The fight isn't to the death.
#4 Posted by ReVamp (22863 posts) - - Show Bio

@Ferro Vida: But Morals should be off for Silver Samurai under OP conditions, correct?

Honestly, Silver Samurai seems the more skilled of the two, not to mention quicker, even with his armor.

#5 Posted by jeanroygrant (20191 posts) - - Show Bio

Black Knight.

#6 Posted by KainScion (2973 posts) - - Show Bio

@Ferro Vida: what meant was does tire really really slowly, being able to fight for a longer period of time than a normal human?

#7 Posted by Super_SoldierXII (6128 posts) - - Show Bio

Silver Samurai.

#8 Posted by Ferro Vida (34597 posts) - - Show Bio
@KainScion said:

@Ferro Vida: what meant was does tire really really slowly, being able to fight for a longer period of time than a normal human?

Neither of them has superhuman endurance. 
 
@Super_SoldierXII@jeanroygrant: Why?
#9 Posted by Ferro Vida (34597 posts) - - Show Bio
@ReVamp said:

@Ferro Vida: But Morals should be off for Silver Samurai under OP conditions, correct?

Honestly, Silver Samurai seems the more skilled of the two, not to mention quicker, even with his armor.

Morals are on, as in neither one is going to cheat. They will fight honourably, but neither one usually holds back. 
 
SS might be slightly faster, but Black Knight is as fast with his sword as Darth Maul is with a lightsaber (he once spun the blade fast enough that it appeared to make a solid wall. He did this when fighting a dragon to defend against its fire breath).
#10 Posted by ReVamp (22863 posts) - - Show Bio

@Ferro Vida:

I see what you mean, but I believe that would fall more under the concept of "in-character" other than "morals", but that's just semantics and beside the point.

I still give this to SS, out of the two characters the latter has always impressed me more in terms of fighting capability. Whilst I'm not exactly an expert on Black Knight, he does seem to have this supernatural element to him, such as the one you pointed out (which I didn't remember, but I believe its from New Excalibur) which, while impressive, when actually thought over doesn't seem to give him such a big advantage as one would think. So yes, he could pull of a move like that, but at the end of the day, I don't think that a move of the like would necessarily help Dane get an edge on Silver and thus I think it would end up more of a straight sword fight of which my opinion if clear.

Simply put: I think SS wins until someone posts scans on Dane showing skill with a sword, or an ability that I'm not familiar with.

#11 Posted by Ferro Vida (34597 posts) - - Show Bio
@ReVamp: It was New Excalibur, and that is a well-reasoned response. I won't comment further to avoid any bias.
#12 Posted by Ferro Vida (34597 posts) - - Show Bio

Anyone else?

#13 Posted by Erik (31417 posts) - - Show Bio

I would say that based on reputation, I might give it to BK. But honestly, I do not know a whole lot about the character. Almost all my knowledge on him came from Captain Britain and MI:13. In that series, he literally did nothing worth note.

#14 Posted by Ferro Vida (34597 posts) - - Show Bio
@Erik said:

I would say that based on reputation, I might give it to BK. But honestly, I do not know a whole lot about the character. Almost all my knowledge on him came from Captain Britain and MI:13. In that series, he literally did nothing worth note.

I hated that series for that :/ I have heard that he has stalemated Wolverine at least once, but I couldn't find any scans to back it up.
#15 Posted by Scarbearer (722 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't want to sell Dane short, mainly because in comics eastern swordsmen are generally considered superior to western swordsmen because of the whole mystique of 'eastern martial arts.' But when I try to compare them just based on feats I can't think of any showings that Dane has had that I can point to as equal to or more impressive than Harada's so I think Silver Samurai takes this.

#16 Edited by Erik (31417 posts) - - Show Bio

@Ferro Vida said:

@Erik said:

I would say that based on reputation, I might give it to BK. But honestly, I do not know a whole lot about the character. Almost all my knowledge on him came from Captain Britain and MI:13. In that series, he literally did nothing worth note.

I hated that series for that :/ I have heard that he has stalemated Wolverine at least once, but I couldn't find any scans to back it up.

Someone showed me the scans for that fight once. IIRC the fight was rather short and was not a credit to either of their fighting ability. It did happen though.

#17 Posted by emperorznb (1673 posts) - - Show Bio

Silver Samurai.

#18 Posted by Ferro Vida (34597 posts) - - Show Bio
@Erik said:

@Ferro Vida said:

@Erik said:

I would say that based on reputation, I might give it to BK. But honestly, I do not know a whole lot about the character. Almost all my knowledge on him came from Captain Britain and MI:13. In that series, he literally did nothing worth note.

I hated that series for that :/ I have heard that he has stalemated Wolverine at least once, but I couldn't find any scans to back it up.

Someone showed me the scans for that fight once. IIRC the fight was rather short and was not a credit to either of their fighting ability. It did happen though.

Good to know. My only real experience with him comes from New Excalibur, where he did have a few impressive feats.
#19 Posted by Erik (31417 posts) - - Show Bio

@Ferro Vida said:

@Erik said:

@Ferro Vida said:

@Erik said:

I would say that based on reputation, I might give it to BK. But honestly, I do not know a whole lot about the character. Almost all my knowledge on him came from Captain Britain and MI:13. In that series, he literally did nothing worth note.

I hated that series for that :/ I have heard that he has stalemated Wolverine at least once, but I couldn't find any scans to back it up.

Someone showed me the scans for that fight once. IIRC the fight was rather short and was not a credit to either of their fighting ability. It did happen though.

Good to know. My only real experience with him comes from New Excalibur, where he did have a few impressive feats.

Was that the series with Kitty?

#20 Posted by Ferro Vida (34597 posts) - - Show Bio
@Erik: Kitty was a member of Excalibur. New Excalibur was Captain Britain, a weaker Juggernaut, Nocturne, Dazzler, Pete Wisdom, Sage, and Black Knight for two story arcs.
#21 Posted by charlieboy (7150 posts) - - Show Bio

@Erik: kitty was in the first few issues but the main lineup was captain britain, nocturne, juggernaut, pete wisdom, and dazzler.

#22 Posted by charlieboy (7150 posts) - - Show Bio

@Ferro Vida: i completely forgot about sage. i wonder if erik was referring to the comic that kitty fought silver samurai in?

#23 Posted by Erik (31417 posts) - - Show Bio

@charlieboy said:

@Ferro Vida: i completely forgot about sage. i wonder if erik was referring to the comic that kitty fought silver samurai in?

No I meant when she was actually on the team but I guess that was the previous volume.

#24 Posted by charlieboy (7150 posts) - - Show Bio

@Erik: yeah kitty was a founding member of the original excalibur which was a fantastic series.

#25 Posted by charlieboy (7150 posts) - - Show Bio

since the ebony blade is enchanted will it cut through the samurai's sword? i think the samurai's sword is mutant powered. so does enchantment overcome mutation in this instance?

#26 Edited by Erik (31417 posts) - - Show Bio

@charlieboy said:

since the ebony blade is enchanted will it cut through the samurai's sword? i think the samurai's sword is mutant powered. so does enchantment overcome mutation in this instance?

I have never seen anything to suggest his sword could cut adamantium but even if it could, SS's energy field should protect his sword.

#27 Posted by charlieboy (7150 posts) - - Show Bio

@Erik: i seriously need to go look at my old avengers comics. to see if black knight has any feats. i know the blade absorbs energy attacks.

#28 Posted by charlieboy (7150 posts) - - Show Bio

@Ferro Vida: i believe that black knight fought wolvie during the original x-men vs avengers series.

#29 Posted by Erik (31417 posts) - - Show Bio

@charlieboy said:

@Erik: i seriously need to go look at my old avengers comics. to see if black knight has any feats. i know the blade absorbs energy attacks.

All energy attacks?

#30 Posted by Super_SoldierXII (6128 posts) - - Show Bio

@Ferro Vida said:

@KainScion said:

@Ferro Vida: what meant was does tire really really slowly, being able to fight for a longer period of time than a normal human?

Neither of them has superhuman endurance.

@Super_SoldierXII: @jeanroygrant: Why?

Show me Dane doing anything remotely close to the skill level and reaction time with a blade it would take to split a bullet and I may change my mind here ...

#31 Posted by charlieboy (7150 posts) - - Show Bio

@Erik: i am pretty sure i saw it absorb several energy bolts when he was an avenger. when i have the time i will research it.

#32 Posted by Erik (31417 posts) - - Show Bio

@Super_SoldierXII said:

Show me Dane doing anything remotely close to the skill level and reaction time with a blade it would take to split a bullet and I may change my mind here ...

That is actually a good point but I think spinning a blade so fast it created a wall to block a stream of fire shot by a dragon is a pretty decent speed feat with a blade.

#33 Posted by Erik (31417 posts) - - Show Bio

@charlieboy said:

@Erik: i am pretty sure i saw it absorb several energy bolts when he was an avenger. when i have the time i will research it.

I only ask because SS's energy field is not really an attack. He can just coat his blades with it so it makes the blades able to cut through virtually anything.

#34 Posted by charlieboy (7150 posts) - - Show Bio

@Erik: it was direct attacks.

#35 Posted by cliffrice (1011 posts) - - Show Bio

cant the ebony blade cut through anything?

#36 Posted by Super_SoldierXII (6128 posts) - - Show Bio

@Erik said:

@Super_SoldierXII said:

Show me Dane doing anything remotely close to the skill level and reaction time with a blade it would take to split a bullet and I may change my mind here ...

That is actually a good point but I think spinning a blade so fast it created a wall to block a stream of fire shot by a dragon is a pretty decent speed feat with a blade.

Very decent indeed. I haven't seen it ... but speed is one thing, the precision SS demonstrated is quite another. The Iaijutsu is strong with that one.

#37 Posted by Ferro Vida (34597 posts) - - Show Bio
@Super_SoldierXII said:

@Erik said:

@Super_SoldierXII said:

Show me Dane doing anything remotely close to the skill level and reaction time with a blade it would take to split a bullet and I may change my mind here ...

That is actually a good point but I think spinning a blade so fast it created a wall to block a stream of fire shot by a dragon is a pretty decent speed feat with a blade.

Very decent indeed. I haven't seen it ... but speed is one thing, the precision SS demonstrated is quite another. The Iaijutsu is strong with that one.

I don't mean to downplay SS's precision, but how would it help him here?
#38 Posted by Super_SoldierXII (6128 posts) - - Show Bio

@Ferro Vida said:

@Super_SoldierXII said:

@Erik said:

@Super_SoldierXII said:

Show me Dane doing anything remotely close to the skill level and reaction time with a blade it would take to split a bullet and I may change my mind here ...

That is actually a good point but I think spinning a blade so fast it created a wall to block a stream of fire shot by a dragon is a pretty decent speed feat with a blade.

Very decent indeed. I haven't seen it ... but speed is one thing, the precision SS demonstrated is quite another. The Iaijutsu is strong with that one.

I don't mean to downplay SS's precision, but how would it help him here?

I guess 'timing' would have been a better term. Precision comes with skill. Speed, coupled with skill and timing ones strikes are essentials in the samurai art of drawing blades or Iaijutsu. (Don't ask. I lived in Japan for 5 years and picked up a few things about good ol Bushido. It's literally a sport in every major high school).

Like I said though, show a skill feat that beats out splitting a bullet and I can be convinced to take Dane's side in this battle.

#39 Edited by Ferro Vida (34597 posts) - - Show Bio
@Super_SoldierXII: I know a bit about the samurai art of drawing blades from personal research, but it still doesn't answer my question. That particular form was developed as a quick draw and was used in duels in which the participants would draw their blade, cut their opponent, and resheath their blade in one fluid motion. At least, that's what my research tells me. Dane is fast enough to spin his blade so quickly that it appears to be a solid wall. He also is used to fighting with a shield. Whether or not he can take SS in a quick draw is not the question (he has absorbed energy blasts on several occasions, but I haven't seen him cut any bullets).  
 
This one is a bit of an alle oop, but Taskmaster cut apart Spider-man's webbing once as he was shooting it when they fought, stating that they were sword skills he had learned from watching the Black Knight.
#40 Posted by Owie (3564 posts) - - Show Bio

Black Knight beat Swordsman (a couple times). He was fairly stomped by Dracula, but Dracula did still call him one of the greatest swordsman of all time, I believe. But I do feel like he's one of those guys with a big reputation that doesn't often actually prove it. If we take his reputation as truth, I think Dane would win. On feats, I think it would be about even, possibly with Samurai having the edge.

In terms of what the Ebony Blade can cut, I don't think there's any direct evidence it can cut through adamantium, but on the other hand the Muramasa blades can cut through adamantium, and they seem to fall in the same category of "blade that can cut through anything." That's a bit of a leap of association, I know.

I do believe the Ebony blade can absorb any energy, so technically perhaps it can absorb SS's tachyon field.

#41 Posted by Manchine (3859 posts) - - Show Bio

Both are very able swordsmen. I would put Black Knight is a better swordsmen for the win here.

#42 Posted by Super_SoldierXII (6128 posts) - - Show Bio

@Ferro Vida said:

@Super_SoldierXII: I know a bit about the samurai art of drawing blades from personal research, but it still doesn't answer my question. That particular form was developed as a quick draw and was used in duels in which the participants would draw their blade, cut their opponent, and resheath their blade in one fluid motion. At least, that's what my research tells me. Dane is fast enough to spin his blade so quickly that it appears to be a solid wall. He also is used to fighting with a shield. Whether or not he can take SS in a quick draw is not the question (he has absorbed energy blasts on several occasions, but I haven't seen him cut any bullets). This one is a bit of an alle oop, but Taskmaster cut apart Spider-man's webbing once as he was shooting it when they fought, stating that they were sword skills he had learned from watching the Black Knight.

My point is the quick draw, being fast enough to split a bullet traveling at 800 meters per second, and striking with enough precision to do so, will see him passing Dane's guard and land a telling blow wheresoever SS chooses.

Mastery of this art, native to Bushido and Japan, sees him beating Dane IMO.

Though the blade spinning feat is impressive ... I don't see it as a game changer.

#43 Posted by Ferro Vida (34597 posts) - - Show Bio
@Super_SoldierXII said:

@Ferro Vida said:

@Super_SoldierXII: I know a bit about the samurai art of drawing blades from personal research, but it still doesn't answer my question. That particular form was developed as a quick draw and was used in duels in which the participants would draw their blade, cut their opponent, and resheath their blade in one fluid motion. At least, that's what my research tells me. Dane is fast enough to spin his blade so quickly that it appears to be a solid wall. He also is used to fighting with a shield. Whether or not he can take SS in a quick draw is not the question (he has absorbed energy blasts on several occasions, but I haven't seen him cut any bullets). This one is a bit of an alle oop, but Taskmaster cut apart Spider-man's webbing once as he was shooting it when they fought, stating that they were sword skills he had learned from watching the Black Knight.

My point is the quick draw, being fast enough to split a bullet traveling at 800 meters per second, and striking with enough precision to do so, will see him passing Dane's guard and land a telling blow wheresoever SS chooses.

Mastery of this art, native to Bushido and Japan, sees him beating Dane IMO.

Though the blade spinning feat is impressive ... I don't see it as a game changer.

They tested if a katana can cut through chainmail in season one of Deadliest Warrior. It cannot. So why do you think SS can get through his armour when the only part of him that is exposed is the lower half of his face?
#44 Posted by Owie (3564 posts) - - Show Bio
@Ferro Vida said:
@Super_SoldierXII said:

@Ferro Vida said:

@Super_SoldierXII: I know a bit about the samurai art of drawing blades from personal research, but it still doesn't answer my question. That particular form was developed as a quick draw and was used in duels in which the participants would draw their blade, cut their opponent, and resheath their blade in one fluid motion. At least, that's what my research tells me. Dane is fast enough to spin his blade so quickly that it appears to be a solid wall. He also is used to fighting with a shield. Whether or not he can take SS in a quick draw is not the question (he has absorbed energy blasts on several occasions, but I haven't seen him cut any bullets). This one is a bit of an alle oop, but Taskmaster cut apart Spider-man's webbing once as he was shooting it when they fought, stating that they were sword skills he had learned from watching the Black Knight.

My point is the quick draw, being fast enough to split a bullet traveling at 800 meters per second, and striking with enough precision to do so, will see him passing Dane's guard and land a telling blow wheresoever SS chooses.

Mastery of this art, native to Bushido and Japan, sees him beating Dane IMO.

Though the blade spinning feat is impressive ... I don't see it as a game changer.

They tested if a katana can cut through chainmail in season one of Deadliest Warrior. It cannot. So why do you think SS can get through his armour when the only part of him that is exposed is the lower half of his face?
But SS's power is to cover his sword in a tachyon field that allows it to cut through essentially anything.  So why would chainmail be an issue?  Also, when you said he has adamantium swords in the OP, did you mean to give those swords the PIS cutting power that Wolverine's claws have, or was your intent just to have them be unbreakable?
#45 Posted by Erik (31417 posts) - - Show Bio

@Owie said:

But SS's power is to cover his sword in a tachyon field that allows it to cut through essentially anything. So why would chainmail be an issue? Also, when you said he has adamantium swords in the OP, did you mean to give those swords the PIS cutting power that Wolverine's claws have, or was your intent just to have them be unbreakable?

Wolverine cutting things is not PIS.

#46 Posted by Owie (3564 posts) - - Show Bio
@Erik said:

@Owie said:

But SS's power is to cover his sword in a tachyon field that allows it to cut through essentially anything. So why would chainmail be an issue? Also, when you said he has adamantium swords in the OP, did you mean to give those swords the PIS cutting power that Wolverine's claws have, or was your intent just to have them be unbreakable?

Wolverine cutting things is not PIS.

Well, whatever term you want to use.  What I mean is, it doesn't make real-world sense for him to be able to cut through super-durable materials like butter just because his claws are made of adamantium, that's something that only makes sense according to comic-book science, and even then, only barely.
#47 Edited by nick_hero22 (6707 posts) - - Show Bio

Cutting through a bullet could be written off as PIS or Bad Writing since it would require borderline super sonic reflexes to react to the bullet during it's flight. A character without a high degree of superhuman reflexes shouldn't being reacting to bullets, maybe telegraphing shots but not reacting to bullets during flight. Does Silver Samurai even have Peak Human Reflexes?

#48 Posted by Erik (31417 posts) - - Show Bio

@Owie said:

Well, whatever term you want to use. What I mean is, it doesn't make real-world sense for him to be able to cut through super-durable materials like butter just because his claws are made of adamantium, that's something that only makes sense according to comic-book science, and even then, only barely.

I disagree. It is well established that Wolverine also has a degree of super human strength and speed to propel those blades around and through lesser materials.

#49 Posted by Owie (3564 posts) - - Show Bio
@Erik said:

@Owie said:

Well, whatever term you want to use. What I mean is, it doesn't make real-world sense for him to be able to cut through super-durable materials like butter just because his claws are made of adamantium, that's something that only makes sense according to comic-book science, and even then, only barely.

I disagree. It is well established that Wolverine also has a degree of super human strength and speed to propel those blades around and through lesser materials.

If Wolverine has any superhuman strength it's minor, in the realm of 800 lbs., which is not anywhere near enough to cut metal as easily as he does.  In any case other characters also use adamantium blades in the same way, cutting through metal easily.
#50 Posted by Erik (31417 posts) - - Show Bio

@Owie said:

If Wolverine has any superhuman strength it's minor, in the realm of 800 lbs., which is not anywhere near enough to cut metal as easily as he does. In any case other characters also use adamantium blades in the same way, cutting through metal easily.

Wolverine is stronger than 800lbs. That is about peak human. Captain America can put more than that up and Wolverine is stronger than him. In fact, Wolverine has thrown at least that much around like it was a baseball, fairly consistently too.