#301 Posted by MarlboroMan (1625 posts) - - Show Bio

@marlboroman said:

@citizenbane said:

Oh and giving Thanos a bloody lip=killing Superman. They're that far apart.

You can state nonsense as confidently as you wish, it is still nonsense. The last person to give Thanos a bloody lip, scratch that, a bloody nose, was the Vision with a punch to the noggin. Someone should tell the Avengers they've got a Superman-slaying robot on their hands.

Inconsistencies happens stop trying to cheapshot, same Thanos also resisted Odin and Surfer attacks without a single scratch

Right; when Vision does it, it's a cheapshot, but when Black Bolt does it, it's not, even though Thing and Namor have tanked Black Bolt's scream before. You might be "cheapshotting" Thanos more than you think I am. Yeah, going by how Starlin used to write Thanos in the 90's, he'd have tanked Black Bolt's attacks without so much as a papercut's blood loss. No one writes Thanos like Starlin does, though, and therein lies the inconsistency.

Sure, I fully expected Thanos to weather everything Black Bolt through at him and hand him his rear on a silver platter. I also fully expected Thanos to suffer superficial cuts and bruises from the attack, which he did, and I expected that because he was being written by Hickman and not Starlin. My only real point is that it is laughable to think Black Bolt's scream is going to insta-kill Superman because it minorly annoyed Thanos.

And he was bleeding profusely and struggling to stand after Odin attacked him, so no, it wasn't "without a single scratch".


I meant you by cheap shotting not Vision(because of you trying to lowball) and we have no idea of how powerful is this Hickman Thanos is it was his first display of fighting and please dont compare him to Superman it's hardly even funny so using Thanos as lowballing Black Bolt is just doesn't gonna work. And can you please show me the scans of Thing and Namor tanking Black Bolt scream?

and also in this scan he was tanking to Odin's attack with no problem like i said inconsistencies happens, this battles are about characters fullest potentials


#302 Edited by Dextersinister (6151 posts) - - Show Bio

@marlboroman: this battles are about characters fullest potentials

People always get this part wrong, it's to the best of their ability within character, which means that Superman will fight at his top speed but start with weaker punches against unknown foes as he judges his opponents durability and Thor will not forget that he has other forms of attack besides hammer blows if he is fighting some sort of slime monster.

It does not mean high showings only

#303 Posted by Saren (25674 posts) - - Show Bio

Again, ending speed has NOTHING to do with his starting speed. Supes likely started just below Lightspeed and accelerated to w/e speed he needed for the plot that time. Let's not mention that when he needed to IMP that shadow moon or w/e he could only reach 99% the speed of light with maximum effort, and that he doesn't use his FTL speeds in fights (IIRC he said he can't fight at FTL speeds), even that example doesn't prove he can start at 135 FTL. Again, momentum and buildup.

Flash never ever ever in a fight can immediately start at 135 FTL. It never happens. He always needs buildup and other such things. Also, Flash writers know nothing about math and science and it's obvious. For god's sake his nuke feat was like what? thousands of time FTL, and the writer himself said it was ALMOST the speed of light. Gotta use writer's intent sometimes.

OK let's put it this way. ODIN couldn't do that to Thanos and his armor. The last person I remember doing that to him was Galactus or Omega. And Vision giving Thanos a bloody nose is PIS/Inconsistent/bad writing.

As fun as it is to read you making completely baseless speculations about off-panel feats ---- you and I both know you couldn't prove any of these posits about what Superman "likely did" if you tried --- I think you need to get some perspective on the distances involved here. And that aside, even if Superman started off "just below lightspeed", so what? Black Bolt is barely hypersonic. No one needs FTL speeds to be faster than him.

Really, never? Because it's happened more times than I care to count. He one-shotted Thawne by starting off his run billions of times faster than light. He searched an entire crowd for 2 White Martians in less than a picosecond. Hell, Barry was dodging stray bullets at FTL speeds recently. The nuke feat is something people who argue against the Flash bring up because they're more likely to have heard or read about it than any of his other feats, and that makes it convenient to argue about "writer's intent" vis-a-vis everything else the Flash has done, but none of Flash's other feats have the contradictory narration that feat did. You really want to take a mistake from one feat and generalize it to the character's entire repertoire? It's basically saying that Flash can't do something he's already done dozens of times simply because you don't think he can do it owing to your incomplete knowledge of the character's capabilities.

Odin did worse, considering Thanos visibly had trouble getting back on his feet from those attacks, whereas he shrugged off everything Black Bolt threw at him. Thanos' armor has never been something particularly stressed on for durability. It's been torn or scratched or damaged on several other occasions by people weaker than Odin or Black Bolt. Superman's cape has survived a supernova without a tear. Lex Luthor has torn it. Do I thus infer that Lex hits harder than a supernova?

Thanos' durability comes down to his own immense physical resiliency supplemented by his powerful shields. His armor has very little to do with it. Also, Maker and Starlord (w/a depleted cosmic cube) both knocked out Thanos, FYI. Galactus and Omega were hardly the last people to harm him.

Right, Vision doing it is PIS, but Black Bolt doing it is totally alright, because of Black Bolt's established history as a peer to Odin, Galactus and Omega. For crying out loud (no pun intended), Black Bolt didn't do anything to Thanos worth mentioning. That was a humiliating defeat that people are trying to salvage scraps of reputation from.

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#304 Posted by Saren (25674 posts) - - Show Bio

@marlboroman: That's not the entire fight, and you know it.

Here's the scan of Black Bolt screaming and ordinary humans tanking it, along with Thing and Namor.

I don't think you understood what I said above. I wasn't using Thanos to lowball Black Bolt; I'm saying that if you want to use Odin as a benchmark for Thanos' durability, you're effectively lowballing Thanos with the assertion that Black Bolt could do anything more than annoy him.

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#305 Posted by DarkRaiden (7290 posts) - - Show Bio

@darkraiden said:

Again, ending speed has NOTHING to do with his starting speed. Supes likely started just below Lightspeed and accelerated to w/e speed he needed for the plot that time. Let's not mention that when he needed to IMP that shadow moon or w/e he could only reach 99% the speed of light with maximum effort, and that he doesn't use his FTL speeds in fights (IIRC he said he can't fight at FTL speeds), even that example doesn't prove he can start at 135 FTL. Again, momentum and buildup.

Flash never ever ever in a fight can immediately start at 135 FTL. It never happens. He always needs buildup and other such things. Also, Flash writers know nothing about math and science and it's obvious. For god's sake his nuke feat was like what? thousands of time FTL, and the writer himself said it was ALMOST the speed of light. Gotta use writer's intent sometimes.

OK let's put it this way. ODIN couldn't do that to Thanos and his armor. The last person I remember doing that to him was Galactus or Omega. And Vision giving Thanos a bloody nose is PIS/Inconsistent/bad writing.

As fun as it is to read you making completely baseless speculations about off-panel feats ---- you and I both know you couldn't prove any of these posits about what Superman "likely did" if you tried --- I think you need to get some perspective on the distances involved here. And that aside, even if Superman started off "just below lightspeed", so what? Black Bolt is barely hypersonic. No one needs FTL speeds to be faster than him.

Really, never? Because it's happened more times than I care to count. He one-shotted Thawne by starting off his run billions of times faster than light. He searched an entire crowd for 2 White Martians in less than a picosecond. Hell, Barry was dodging stray bullets at FTL speeds recently. The nuke feat is something people who argue against the Flash bring up because they're more likely to have heard or read about it than any of his other feats, and that makes it convenient to argue about "writer's intent" vis-a-vis everything else the Flash has done, but none of Flash's other feats have the contradictory narration that feat did. You really want to take a mistake from one feat and generalize it to the character's entire repertoire? It's basically saying that Flash can't do something he's already done dozens of times simply because you don't think he can do it owing to your incomplete knowledge of the character's capabilities.

Odin did worse, considering Thanos visibly had trouble getting back on his feet from those attacks, whereas he shrugged off everything Black Bolt threw at him. Thanos' armor has never been something particularly stressed on for durability. It's been torn or scratched or damaged on several other occasions by people weaker than Odin or Black Bolt. Superman's cape has survived a supernova without a tear. Lex Luthor has torn it. Do I thus infer that Lex hits harder than a supernova?

Thanos' durability comes down to his own immense physical resiliency supplemented by his powerful shields. His armor has very little to do with it. Also, Maker and Starlord (w/a depleted cosmic cube) both knocked out Thanos, FYI. Galactus and Omega were hardly the last people to harm him.

Right, Vision doing it is PIS, but Black Bolt doing it is totally alright, because of Black Bolt's established history as a peer to Odin, Galactus and Omega. For crying out loud (no pun intended), Black Bolt didn't do anything to Thanos worth mentioning. That was a humiliating defeat that people are trying to salvage scraps of reputation from.

Hmm you named like 3 Flash feats and say that it happens all the time....sure. I didn't say he doesn't go FTL I said that he practically never STARTS at 135 FTL. That's it. FTL is fine, w/e but claiming Supes goes 135 FTL immediately and instantly is wrong. So yeah, back to the original point, Gladiator is as fast as Supes, and Blackbolt reacted to and fought him.

#306 Edited by Saren (25674 posts) - - Show Bio

@darkraiden said:

Hmm you named like 3 Flash feats and say that it happens all the time....sure.

Sorry, I didn't know you were expecting me to go through 40 years of Wally West's history and list out every single instant-FTL feat he's ever performed. Good grief, Charlie Brown.

I didn't say he doesn't go FTL I said that he practically never STARTS at 135 FTL. That's it. FTL is fine, w/e but claiming Supes goes 135 FTL immediately and instantly is wrong.

I'm not even going into this again. I'm just going to say it's a supremely irrelevant distinction.

So yeah, back to the original point, Gladiator is as fast as Supes, and Blackbolt reacted to and fought him.

You know why people ask "Was X character actually using his speed in this fight"? This is why. Plot limits characters like Superman and Gladiator and Flash from just insta-murdering everyone with their speed. Ignoring the role of plot and assuming that everyone who fights Superman can do so because they are, by virtue of being able to fight Superman, as fast as he is will lead you to bizarre conclusions. I suppose Gambit, Cannonball, Rachel Summers, Ben Grimm, Corsair, Invisible Woman et al are all capable of matching Superman's speed since they kept up with Gladiator? Even though some of these people don't even have speed as a power?

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#307 Posted by DarkRaiden (7290 posts) - - Show Bio

@darkraiden said:

Hmm you named like 3 Flash feats and say that it happens all the time....sure.

Sorry, I didn't know you were expecting me to go through 40 years of Wally West's history and list out every single instant-FTL feat he's ever performed. Good grief, Charlie Brown.

I didn't say he doesn't go FTL I said that he practically never STARTS at 135 FTL. That's it. FTL is fine, w/e but claiming Supes goes 135 FTL immediately and instantly is wrong.

I'm not even going into this again. I'm just going to say it's a supremely irrelevant distinction.

So yeah, back to the original point, Gladiator is as fast as Supes, and Blackbolt reacted to and fought him.

You know why people ask "Was X character actually using his speed in this fight"? This is why. Plot limits characters like Superman and Gladiator and Flash from just insta-murdering everyone with their speed. Ignoring the role of plot and assuming that everyone who fights Superman can do so because they are, by virtue of being able to fight Superman, as fast as he is will lead you to bizarre conclusions. I suppose Gambit, Cannonball, Rachel Summers, Ben Grimm, Corsair, Invisible Woman et al are all capable of matching Superman's speed since they kept up with Gladiator? Even though some of these people don't even have speed as a power?

Actually yeah. They've fought someone that fast before. Plus, like Gladiator, Supes rarely uses his speed, so this whole thing is irrelevant. Blackbolt screams, and Supes dies.

#308 Posted by Saren (25674 posts) - - Show Bio

Actually yeah. They've fought someone that fast before.

Really? Corsair, the guy who has zero powers and isn't even peak human, is capable of keeping up with Superman's speed because he shot down Gladiator once? You typed this out and genuinely thought it would be a logical, well-considered thing to say? Really?

Plus, like Gladiator, Supes rarely uses his speed,

Gladiator rarely uses his speed, but all the people who have fought him are as fast as him by virtue of using his speed as a benchmark. I.......I do not understand how this is supposed to work. I'm honestly torn between thinking you don't understand the intertwining of plot and feats, or that you do and choose to ignore it for whatever unfathomable reasons.

this whole thing is irrelevant. Blackbolt screams, and Supes dies.

Based on Black Bolt's history of never doing a darn thing to anyone worth anything, yeah, this is likely to happen. The days when he stood a chance against Savage Hulk are long since gone, considering the leaps and bounds in portrayal Hulk has gone through. Black Bolt hasn't been a peer to anyone in ages. What'll happen is Black Bolt screams (because he does that all the time, right? Superman will conveniently never use his speed because of how we understand standard behavior on the battle forums, but when it suits you, Black Bolt will do something he does far less frequently than Superman uses his speed to dominate opponents), Superman endures minor to moderate inconvenience, Superman then proceeds to throw Attilan's political hierarchy into doubtful times.

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#309 Posted by DarkRaiden (7290 posts) - - Show Bio

@darkraiden said:

Actually yeah. They've fought someone that fast before.

Really? Corsair, the guy who has zero powers and isn't even peak human, is capable of keeping up with Superman's speed because he shot down Gladiator once? You typed this out and genuinely thought it would be a logical, well-considered thing to say? Really?

Plus, like Gladiator, Supes rarely uses his speed,

Gladiator rarely uses his speed, but all the people who have fought him are as fast as him by virtue of using his speed as a benchmark. I.......I do not understand how this is supposed to work. I'm honestly torn between thinking you don't understand the intertwining of plot and feats, or that you do and choose to ignore it for whatever unfathomable reasons.

this whole thing is irrelevant. Blackbolt screams, and Supes dies.

Based on Black Bolt's history of never doing a darn thing to anyone worth anything, yeah, this is likely to happen. The days when he stood a chance against Savage Hulk are long since gone, considering the leaps and bounds in portrayal Hulk has gone through. Black Bolt hasn't been a peer to anyone in ages. What'll happen is Black Bolt screams (because he does that all the time, right? Superman will conveniently never use his speed because of how we understand standard behavior on the battle forums, but when it suits you, Black Bolt will do something he does far less frequently than Superman uses his speed to dominate opponents), Superman endures minor to moderate inconvenience, Superman then proceeds to throw Attilan's political hierarchy into doubtful times.

Yep. Completely logical.

I'm saying that either Gladiator used his speed and their fight is valid, or according to you Gladiator doesn't use his speed, but neither does Supes so the result doesn't change.

Black Bolt KO'd Savage Hulk with a whisper I'm pretty sure. And Savage Hulk had just as good feats as WWH. Black Bolt's spoken word destroyed the Moon essentially and his scream is stated to be able to destroy a planet once or twice.

So no, he'll likely whisper and KO Supes, you're right. Also I'm unsure how Supes's super hearing will affect that, but if it does at all, he may die regardless.

#310 Posted by Saren (25674 posts) - - Show Bio

Yep. Completely logical.

So let me follow this completely logical train of thought to its natural conclusion:

  • Gladiator and Superman are equally matched in terms of speed
  • Corsair, a human with no powers, has kept up with Gladiator
  • Therefore, Corsair can match Superman's speed

Now:

  • Gladiator and Superman are equally matched in terms of speed
  • Batman, a human with no powers, has kept up with Superman

Fill in the last blank yourself, please. I would dearly love to see you follow your own absurd trainwreck of thought and say "Batman is as fast as Gladiator". After all, it is a completely logical inference according to you. And while you're doing that, meditate on the idea that if one suddenly realizes that what one says is so nonsensical a third-grader would laugh at it, the world will not end upon admitting the absurdity.

I'm saying that either Gladiator used his speed and their fight is valid, or according to you Gladiator doesn't use his speed, but neither does Supes so the result doesn't change.

If a character uses his or her speed, it's not hard to figure out. Speed is a fairly distinctly portrayed component of superhero comics, what with the limitations of the medium. According to me, if Gladiator used his speed, he'd wreck Black Bolt in seconds, so the result doesn't really change considering that even without the speed, Gladiator would just overcome the voice and kill him.

Black Bolt KO'd Savage Hulk with a whisper I'm pretty sure. And Savage Hulk had just as good feats as WWH.

Really, whatever happened to "writer's intent"? When Greg Pak gives interviews stating that World War Hulk is the angriest, most powerful Hulk up until that point, that counts for nothing? Writer's intent only applies for the Flash?

Savage Hulk had feats just as good as World War Hulk's, which is why Savage Hulk was knocked out by a whisper while World War Hulk endured the screaming and beat Black Bolt to a bloody pulp. Sure. Logic is getting the workout of its lifetime here today.

Black Bolt's spoken word destroyed the Moon essentially

.......LOL. Considering the Moon is still around and even served as a battleground during AvX, what exactly do you mean by "essentially destroyed"? It broke a Rhode Island-sized chunk off. The moon was never destroyed. Also, that was the Skrull, not the Inhuman, which is unfortunate because it gives the Skrull a better destructive feat than most of the stuff the Inhuman has done.

and his scream is stated to be able to destroy a planet once or twice.

Thus marking the first and only time hyperbole was ever employed in comics, surely.

So no, he'll likely whisper and KO Supes, you're right. Also I'm unsure how Supes's super hearing will affect that, but if it does at all, he may die regardless.

Keep singing that song. Superman wins 8/10 minimum. As for the hearing, nothing happened to Sentry despite his ability to hear butterflies in Africa and whatnot. Writers tend to liberally interpret and re-interpret what "quasi-sonic" is supposed to mean.

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#311 Posted by DarkRaiden (7290 posts) - - Show Bio

@darkraiden said:

Yep. Completely logical.

So let me follow this completely logical train of thought to its natural conclusion:

  • Gladiator and Superman are equally matched in terms of speed
  • Corsair, a human with no powers, has kept up with Gladiator
  • Therefore, Corsair can match Superman's speed

Now:

  • Gladiator and Superman are equally matched in terms of speed
  • Batman, a human with no powers, has kept up with Superman

Fill in the last blank yourself, please. I would dearly love to see you follow your own absurd trainwreck of thought and say "Batman is as fast as Gladiator". After all, it is a completely logical inference according to you. And while you're doing that, meditate on the idea that if one suddenly realizes that what one says is so nonsensical a third-grader would laugh at it, the world will not end upon admitting the absurdity.

I'm saying that either Gladiator used his speed and their fight is valid, or according to you Gladiator doesn't use his speed, but neither does Supes so the result doesn't change.

If a character uses his or her speed, it's not hard to figure out. Speed is a fairly distinctly portrayed component of superhero comics, what with the limitations of the medium. According to me, if Gladiator used his speed, he'd wreck Black Bolt in seconds, so the result doesn't really change considering that even without the speed, Gladiator would just overcome the voice and kill him.

Black Bolt KO'd Savage Hulk with a whisper I'm pretty sure. And Savage Hulk had just as good feats as WWH.

Really, whatever happened to "writer's intent"? When Greg Pak gives interviews stating that World War Hulk is the angriest, most powerful Hulk up until that point, that counts for nothing? Writer's intent only applies for the Flash?

Savage Hulk had feats just as good as World War Hulk's, which is why Savage Hulk was knocked out by a whisper while World War Hulk endured the screaming and beat Black Bolt to a bloody pulp. Sure. Logic is getting the workout of its lifetime here today.

Black Bolt's spoken word destroyed the Moon essentially

.......LOL. Considering the Moon is still around and even served as a battleground during AvX, what exactly do you mean by "essentially destroyed"? It broke a Rhode Island-sized chunk off. The moon was never destroyed. Also, that was the Skrull, not the Inhuman, which is unfortunate because it gives the Skrull a better destructive feat than most of the stuff the Inhuman has done.

and his scream is stated to be able to destroy a planet once or twice.

Thus marking the first and only time hyperbole was ever employed in comics, surely.

So no, he'll likely whisper and KO Supes, you're right. Also I'm unsure how Supes's super hearing will affect that, but if it does at all, he may die regardless.

Keep singing that song. Superman wins 8/10 minimum. As for the hearing, nothing happened to Sentry despite his ability to hear butterflies in Africa and whatnot. Writers tend to liberally interpret and re-interpret what "quasi-sonic" is supposed to mean.

Never said Corsair or even Blackbolt can match Supes's speed. Just can fight and tag him. And no, street levelers doing it makes no sense. Hypersonic Cosmic forces who routinely fight people on Gladiator's level would make sense. Though Batman DOES have feats that say he can tag Supes and those level people. But they're PIS.

WWH never faced Blackbolt though. So we can't tell.

Except the Skrull was said to be weaker. So it's literally an automatic feat for Blackbolt.

Sentry's a plot device and very inconsistent. He can't be much of a mark for anything working how it's supposed to. Hell he outmoleculed Molecule Man. Sentry makes no sense.

IC Superman fights at normal, slow speed, gets hit with a whisper that KOs him or at least staggers him for another whisper to KO him. Blackbolt wins 9.5/10.

#312 Edited by Dextersinister (6151 posts) - - Show Bio

@darkraiden: IC Superman fights at normal, slow speed, gets hit with a whisper that KOs him or at least staggers him for another whisper to KO him. Blackbolt wins 9.5/10.

This has been gone over multiple times.

Vine rules state that a character will fight to the best of their abilities as long as it doesn't conflict with moralsm, go against some code of honour.etc

The reason as admitted by the writers themselves is that he doesn't go at max speed all the time so he doesn't stomp the vast majority of fights, there is no reason for him to not start every fight with a Blitz which if you've noticed some Superman fights have no speed blitzing.

Your also assuming that BlackBolt will use an attack against a normal looking man off the bat that could have a notable effect on Superman.

#313 Edited by Saren (25674 posts) - - Show Bio

Never said Corsair or even Blackbolt can match Supes's speed. Just can fight and tag him.

Well, one of us actually pays attention to what they're typing out, so let me refresh your memory. I asked if you thought "Corsair can keep up with Superman's speed" was a logical statement:

Really? Corsair, the guy who has zero powers and isn't even peak human, is capable of keeping up with Superman's speed because he shot down Gladiator once? You typed this out and genuinely thought it would be a logical, well-considered thing to say? Really?

And your reply was:

Yep. Completely logical.

And before that, I asked you if you thought those characters I listed, among them Gambit and Corsair, could match Superman's speed:

I suppose Gambit, Cannonball, Rachel Summers, Ben Grimm, Corsair, Invisible Woman et al are all capable of matching Superman's speed since they kept up with Gladiator? Even though some of these people don't even have speed as a power?

And your reply was:

Actually yeah. They've fought someone that fast before.

Backtracking and pretending you didn't say something pants-on-arms absurd works best when there isn't a record of your statements available via scrolling up. Just a tip.

And no, street levelers doing it makes no sense. Hypersonic Cosmic forces who routinely fight people on Gladiator's level would make sense. Though Batman DOES have feats that say he can tag Supes and those level people. But they're PIS.

Batman tagging Superman is PIS. Corsair tagging Superman is not. Explain to me how this works when Corsair is not even on Nightwing's level of physical ability.

WWH never faced Blackbolt though. So we can't tell.

Well, we can do some amount of telling and point out that the whisper that knocked out Savage Hulk didn't produce a fraction of the collateral damage that the scream that broke off an RI-sized chunk did.

Except the Skrull was said to be weaker. So it's literally an automatic feat for Blackbolt.

Where was this said, exactly?

Sentry's a plot device and very inconsistent. He can't be much of a mark for anything working how it's supposed to. Hell he outmoleculed Molecule Man. Sentry makes no sense.

Wasn't aware Sentry's ears were super-special ears that operated via no-sense laws, but alright.

IC Superman fights at normal, slow speed, gets hit with a whisper that KOs him or at least staggers him for another whisper to KO him. Blackbolt wins 9.5/10.

I tried, no one can say I didn't. Some walls aren't meant to be scaled.

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#314 Posted by green_skaar (4415 posts) - - Show Bio

@darkraiden: IC Superman fights at normal, slow speed, gets hit with a whisper that KOs him or at least staggers him for another whisper to KO him. Blackbolt wins 9.5/10.

This has been gone over multiple times.

Vine rules state that a character will fight to the best of their abilities as long as it doesn't conflict with moralsm, go against some code of honour.etc

The reason as admitted by the writers themselves is that he doesn't go at max speed all the time so he doesn't stomp the vast majority of fights, there is no reason for him to not start every fight with a Blitz which if you've noticed some Superman fights have no speed blitzing.

Your also assuming that BlackBolt will use an attack against a normal looking man off the bat that could have a notable effect on Superman.

Isn't it also the assumption characters are fighting in character? You are right BB doesn't just start screaming at new foes he knows nothing about, but Superman doesn't blitz them either.

#315 Edited by DarkRaiden (7290 posts) - - Show Bio

@darkraiden said:

Never said Corsair or even Blackbolt can match Supes's speed. Just can fight and tag him.

Well, one of us actually pays attention to what they're typing out, so let me refresh your memory. I asked if you thought "Corsair can keep up with Superman's speed" was a logical statement:

Really? Corsair, the guy who has zero powers and isn't even peak human, is capable of keeping up with Superman's speed because he shot down Gladiator once? You typed this out and genuinely thought it would be a logical, well-considered thing to say? Really?

And your reply was:

Yep. Completely logical.

And before that, I asked you if you thought those characters I listed, among them Gambit and Corsair, could match Superman's speed:

I suppose Gambit, Cannonball, Rachel Summers, Ben Grimm, Corsair, Invisible Woman et al are all capable of matching Superman's speed since they kept up with Gladiator? Even though some of these people don't even have speed as a power?

And your reply was:

Actually yeah. They've fought someone that fast before.

Backtracking and pretending you didn't say something pants-on-arms absurd works best when there isn't a record of your statements available via scrolling up. Just a tip.

And no, street levelers doing it makes no sense. Hypersonic Cosmic forces who routinely fight people on Gladiator's level would make sense. Though Batman DOES have feats that say he can tag Supes and those level people. But they're PIS.

Batman tagging Superman is PIS. Corsair tagging Superman is not. Explain to me how this works when Corsair is not even on Nightwing's level of physical ability.

WWH never faced Blackbolt though. So we can't tell.

Well, we can do some amount of telling and point out that the whisper that knocked out Savage Hulk didn't produce a fraction of the collateral damage that the scream that broke off an RI-sized chunk did.

Except the Skrull was said to be weaker. So it's literally an automatic feat for Blackbolt.

Where was this said, exactly?

Sentry's a plot device and very inconsistent. He can't be much of a mark for anything working how it's supposed to. Hell he outmoleculed Molecule Man. Sentry makes no sense.

Wasn't aware Sentry's ears were super-special ears that operated via no-sense laws, but alright.

IC Superman fights at normal, slow speed, gets hit with a whisper that KOs him or at least staggers him for another whisper to KO him. Blackbolt wins 9.5/10.

I tried, no one can say I didn't. Some walls aren't meant to be scaled.

It is logical, I just don't believe it. But yes, it's logical that they can KEEP UP with Superman's speed as they kept up with Gladiators. As they're the same speed. Now I believe for street levelers it's more plot, but a feat for Gladiator IMO stands as a feat against Supes's speed. Yes I believe that.

Also, I thought you said Corsair was street level. I said street levelers doing it is PIS, as is Batman. But for people like Blackbolt who's higher tier, it makes more sense. He can tag one FTL person, he can tag another.

Again, Sentry's inconsistent in all of his feats. He fluctuates daily. Not meant as a measuring stick.

And Skrulls IIRC tend to be weaker than their counterparts or are at least taken down easier. We've seen Blackbolt take down country-planet durability Hulk with a whisper. It should be enough for Supes.

Blackbolt 9.5/10.

#316 Edited by Omnicrono (1832 posts) - - Show Bio

Superman.

#317 Posted by dondave (37439 posts) - - Show Bio

This thread is ridiculous

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#318 Edited by Saren (25674 posts) - - Show Bio

@darkraiden said:

It is logical, I just don't believe it. But yes, it's logical that they can KEEP UP with Superman's speed as they kept up with Gladiators. As they're the same speed. Now I believe for street levelers it's more plot, but a feat for Gladiator IMO stands as a feat against Supes's speed. Yes I believe that.

This makes a grand total of zero sense and doesn't begin to answer anything I said.

Also, I thought you said Corsair was street level. I said street levelers doing it is PIS, as is Batman. But for people like Blackbolt who's higher tier, it makes more sense. He can tag one FTL person, he can tag another.

In the same reply where you said Batman tagging Superman was PIS, you also said:

Never said Corsair or even Blackbolt can match Supes's speed. Just can fight and tag him.

Again: I only have to scroll up.

Again, Sentry's inconsistent in all of his feats. He fluctuates daily. Not meant as a measuring stick.

There wasn't a whole lot of ambiguity regarding this position in the previous post. Hence: alright.

And Skrulls IIRC tend to be weaker than their counterparts or are at least taken down easier.

So naturally my first observation is going to be that you made a claim about something that was supposedly established canon, I asked you to substantiate it, and you could not find a single source. But now that we've got that out of the way: no, this isn't true in the slightest. Some of the Skrulls were weaker than the originals, others (like the Skrull Spider-Woman who blew up Doom's containment field) were stronger. There was no standard portrayal of their capabilities vis-a-vis the real deal.

We've seen Blackbolt take down country-planet durability Hulk with a whisper. It should be enough for Supes.

Not really. Hulk was much, much, much weaker back then. A couple of issues before the fight with Black Bolt, he was defeated by the army; a couple of issues after, he was defeated by Counter-Earth's guards gassing him. Savage Hulk didn't really get any consistent country-to-planet level durability feats until the late 70's to 80's.

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#319 Edited by Dextersinister (6151 posts) - - Show Bio

@green_skaar: Isn't it also the assumption characters are fighting in character? You are right BB doesn't just start screaming at new foes he knows nothing about, but Superman doesn't blitz them either.

That is not true he has blitzed unknown foes before, mainly minions but he did an initial blitz on Hal when he first met him in the new 52. The reason he doesn't blitz main characters as often as minions is because they need to be able to speak for the sake of exposition.

The battle vine scenario is this, both Superman and Black Bolt want to restrain the other at a minimum, the reason doesn't matter.If characters where fully in character on the vine a large number of fights wouldn't happen

#320 Posted by Spartan101 (2355 posts) - - Show Bio

Superman should get the win here

#321 Posted by green_skaar (4415 posts) - - Show Bio

@green_skaar: Isn't it also the assumption characters are fighting in character? You are right BB doesn't just start screaming at new foes he knows nothing about, but Superman doesn't blitz them either.

That is not true he has blitzed unknown foes before, mainly minions but he did an initial blitz on Hal when he first met him in the new 52. The reason he doesn't blitz main characters as often as minions is because they need to be able to speak for the sake of exposition.

The battle vine scenario is this, both Superman and Black Bolt want to restrain the other at a minimum, the reason doesn't matter.If characters where fully in character on the vine a large number of fights wouldn't happen

Interesting, wasn't aware of the first paragraph, thanks.

It is true, in character, most of these fights would never happen, they'd work together, not against each other!

#322 Posted by Zmasonite (1004 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't know much about black bolt but from what I do know he shouldn't be able to take down superman? Lol. Would anybody be kind enough to catch me up on whatever case is being made for BB here? I just don't wanna read several pages of possible nonsense. Maybe @citizenbane: ?

#323 Posted by Dextersinister (6151 posts) - - Show Bio

@green_skaar: Damn, you agreed with me. I thought you may have gone on arguing for ever. I may not always be one but I know a wise man when I see one..

#324 Edited by DarkRaiden (7290 posts) - - Show Bio

@citizenbane said:

@darkraiden said:

It is logical, I just don't believe it. But yes, it's logical that they can KEEP UP with Superman's speed as they kept up with Gladiators. As they're the same speed. Now I believe for street levelers it's more plot, but a feat for Gladiator IMO stands as a feat against Supes's speed. Yes I believe that.

This makes a grand total of zero sense and doesn't begin to answer anything I said.

Also, I thought you said Corsair was street level. I said street levelers doing it is PIS, as is Batman. But for people like Blackbolt who's higher tier, it makes more sense. He can tag one FTL person, he can tag another.

In the same reply where you said Batman tagging Superman was PIS, you also said:

Never said Corsair or even Blackbolt can match Supes's speed. Just can fight and tag him.

Again: I only have to scroll up.

Again, Sentry's inconsistent in all of his feats. He fluctuates daily. Not meant as a measuring stick.

There wasn't a whole lot of ambiguity regarding this position in the previous post. Hence: alright.

And Skrulls IIRC tend to be weaker than their counterparts or are at least taken down easier.

So naturally my first observation is going to be that you made a claim about something that was supposedly established canon, I asked you to substantiate it, and you could not find a single source. But now that we've got that out of the way: no, this isn't true in the slightest. Some of the Skrulls were weaker than the originals, others (like the Skrull Spider-Woman who blew up Doom's containment field) were stronger. There was no standard portrayal of their capabilities vis-a-vis the real deal.

We've seen Blackbolt take down country-planet durability Hulk with a whisper. It should be enough for Supes.

Not really. Hulk was much, much, much weaker back then. A couple of issues before the fight with Black Bolt, he was defeated by the army; a couple of issues after, he was defeated by Counter-Earth's guards gassing him. Savage Hulk didn't really get any consistent country-to-planet level durability feats until the late 70's to 80's.

I'll say it slowly. If a person tags an opponent who can go FTL, like Gladiator, logic says that they can tag a different opponent at the same speed, like Superman. I personally think street levelers doing it is PIS, but if someone didn't think it was PIS, then it would be a logical statement to say Gambit/Corsair can tag Superman.

Yeah I said that. Not seeing the contradiction.

I didn't even look for a source, cause I don't really care. Just that it's generally accepted that Blackbolt's skrull counterpart was weaker.

EDIT: Looked around a bit:

Skrull Blackbolt:

Real Blackbolt:

And according to his profile/wiki:

"A hypersonic shout has been said to generate enough force to destroy planets."

http://marvel.wikia.com/Blackagar_Boltagon_%28Earth-616%29

#325 Posted by dum529001 (1624 posts) - - Show Bio

These show the Skrull view of BB being pissed off, and how fast the 'ship' is going.

http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/...Kings01pg05.jpg

http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/...Kings01pg06.jpg

http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/...Kings01pg07.jpg

http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/...Kings01pg08.jpg

BB powers an entire city to move at way faster than light with his voice, and takes out the Skrulls.

http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/...Kings01pg18.jpg

http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/...Kings01pg19.jpg

http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/...Kings01pg20.jpg

BB's whispers captured by vibranium capacitors power exo-skeletons that shrug off Kree gunfire, as well as weapons.

http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/...Kings01pg33.jpg

#326 Posted by XiiX (8262 posts) - - Show Bio

@marlboroman: this battles are about characters fullest potentials

People always get this part wrong, it's to the best of their ability within character.

It does not mean high showings only

This has to be the # 1 faux-pas people make on the battle-board, and at this point can't be repeated enough.

#327 Posted by The_Titan_Lord (5607 posts) - - Show Bio
#328 Posted by New_World_Order (13189 posts) - - Show Bio

@marlboroman said:

@citizenbane said:

Oh and giving Thanos a bloody lip=killing Superman. They're that far apart.

You can state nonsense as confidently as you wish, it is still nonsense. The last person to give Thanos a bloody lip, scratch that, a bloody nose, was the Vision with a punch to the noggin. Someone should tell the Avengers they've got a Superman-slaying robot on their hands.

Inconsistencies happens stop trying to cheapshot, same Thanos also resisted Odin and Surfer attacks without a single scratch

Right; when Vision does it, it's a cheapshot, but when Black Bolt does it, it's not, even though Thing and Namor have tanked Black Bolt's scream before. You might be "cheapshotting" Thanos more than you think I am. Yeah, going by how Starlin used to write Thanos in the 90's, he'd have tanked Black Bolt's attacks without so much as a papercut's blood loss. No one writes Thanos like Starlin does, though, and therein lies the inconsistency.

Sure, I fully expected Thanos to weather everything Black Bolt through at him and hand him his rear on a silver platter. I also fully expected Thanos to suffer superficial cuts and bruises from the attack, which he did, and I expected that because he was being written by Hickman and not Starlin. My only real point is that it is laughable to think Black Bolt's scream is going to insta-kill Superman because it minorly annoyed Thanos.

And he was bleeding profusely and struggling to stand after Odin attacked him, so no, it wasn't "without a single scratch".


I agree with Bane on this one.

#329 Posted by gokuwarrior (4368 posts) - - Show Bio

superman.

#330 Posted by ComicStooge (12823 posts) - - Show Bio

Supes.

The idea that Clark 'never uses his speed in character' is false.

#331 Posted by Saren (25674 posts) - - Show Bio

No, it doesn't. If we have a general, substantiated idea of the capabilities inherent to a character, namely that with our abundant gifts regarding logical reasoning, we can figure out that street-levelers are not capable of reacting at FTL speeds, then when a street-level character matches speeds with a FTL Herald-level being with established reactions, the logical conclusion is not "Oh, said street-leveler must just be that capable. I guess he could match speeds with any and all FTL Herald-level beings now". The logical conclusion is that his opponent isn't trying.

Yeah I said that. Not seeing the contradiction.

Not surprised.

I didn't even look for a source, cause I don't really care.

Sure, sure. But I'll save you some time and point out that there isn't any proof of this, so even if you cared, you couldn't actually prove it.

Just that it's generally accepted that Blackbolt's skrull counterpart was weaker.

That and 50 cents will buy you a postage stamp.

EDIT: Looked around a bit:

Skrull Blackbolt:

Real Blackbolt:

For the love of god......those are the same Black Bolt, the Skrull. Googling "black bolt feats" is not going to get you anywhere. The first set of scans is from Illuminati #5, and the second is from Illuminati #2, and they both take place after Black Bolt was captured and replaced by the Skrulls in Illuminati #1. Also, that "real Black Bolt feat" you're quoting is the result of Reed's machines amplifying the Skrull's voice.

One of the more depressing experiences on the battle forum is that moment when you realize you've been debating for a couple of pages with someone who has no idea what they're talking about beyond the pretense that they do.

And according to his profile/wiki:

"A hypersonic shout has been said to generate enough force to destroy planets."

http://marvel.wikia.com/Blackagar_Boltagon_%28Earth-616%29

Lol, a wiki. Are you really so short of substantiation that you have to turn to the fan-edited wiki? I rest my case.

Go to the Marvel Wiki's Thor page and you'll see a claim in the powers section that Thor destroyed stars and planets in Omega Flight #5. In reality, Thor never even appeared in that series. Reliability is not Marvel Wiki's strong point. It's not even an official site, man.

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#332 Edited by DarkRaiden (7290 posts) - - Show Bio

@citizenbane: Eh...wikis are fine in my experience. They tend to be accurate for the most part and Blackbolt feats from respect threads claim people have said that he can blow up planets. But the scans are always gone....so I just went to the wiki.

#333 Posted by Saren (25674 posts) - - Show Bio

@citizenbane: Eh...wikis are fine in my experience. They tend to be accurate for the most part and Blackbolt feats from respect threads claim people have said that he can blow up planets. But the scans are always gone....so I just went to the wiki.

Wikis are horrible sources. A pretty good example is this claim that Black Bolt can blow up planets, when he can just about wipe out a city by screaming at the top of his lungs.

Moderator
#334 Posted by SheenLantern (6656 posts) - - Show Bio

@darkraiden said:

@citizenbane: Eh...wikis are fine in my experience. They tend to be accurate for the most part and Blackbolt feats from respect threads claim people have said that he can blow up planets. But the scans are always gone....so I just went to the wiki.

Wikis are horrible sources. A pretty good example is this claim that Black Bolt can blow up planets, when he can just about wipe out a city by screaming at the top of his lungs.


There exist planets smaller than large cities, made out of mud and ice.

But I agree that Wikis are generally not to be trusted, for example Superman Prime One Million. His feats put him around Odin level but the DC Wiki claims he would forcefeed the Living Tribunal his own kneecaps.

#335 Posted by Saren (25674 posts) - - Show Bio

@sheenlantern: Yeah, but that's a pretty specific scenario (the planet thing, I mean). When people or narrators say "X can blow up planets", they mean the generic conception of planets.

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#336 Posted by darkseid1006 (2516 posts) - - Show Bio

@sheenlantern: when has black bolt ever blown up a planet?as far as i know never

#337 Posted by SheenLantern (6656 posts) - - Show Bio
#338 Posted by dum529001 (1624 posts) - - Show Bio

@citizenbane said:

@darkraiden said:

@citizenbane: Eh...wikis are fine in my experience. They tend to be accurate for the most part and Blackbolt feats from respect threads claim people have said that he can blow up planets. But the scans are always gone....so I just went to the wiki.

Wikis are horrible sources. A pretty good example is this claim that Black Bolt can blow up planets, when he can just about wipe out a city by screaming at the top of his lungs.

There exist planets smaller than large cities, made out of mud and ice.

But I agree that Wikis are generally not to be trusted, for example Superman Prime One Million. His feats put him around Odin level but the DC Wiki claims he would forcefeed the Living Tribunal his own kneecaps.

Those aren't planets. Why are you saying they are? Even pluto is bigger than a large city and pluto isn't even considered a planet anymore. Pluto is 2000 times smaller than earth. That's still far bigger than any city.

#339 Edited by SheenLantern (6656 posts) - - Show Bio

@sheenlantern said:
@citizenbane said:

@darkraiden said:

@citizenbane: Eh...wikis are fine in my experience. They tend to be accurate for the most part and Blackbolt feats from respect threads claim people have said that he can blow up planets. But the scans are always gone....so I just went to the wiki.

Wikis are horrible sources. A pretty good example is this claim that Black Bolt can blow up planets, when he can just about wipe out a city by screaming at the top of his lungs.

There exist planets smaller than large cities, made out of mud and ice.

But I agree that Wikis are generally not to be trusted, for example Superman Prime One Million. His feats put him around Odin level but the DC Wiki claims he would forcefeed the Living Tribunal his own kneecaps.

Those aren't planets. Why are you saying they are? Even pluto is bigger than a large city and pluto isn't even considered a planet anymore. Pluto is 2000 times smaller than earth. That's still far bigger than any city.

Definition of 'Planet' - "A celestial body moving in an elliptical orbit around a star"

#340 Posted by darkseid1006 (2516 posts) - - Show Bio

@dum529001 said:

@sheenlantern said:
@citizenbane said:

@darkraiden said:

@citizenbane: Eh...wikis are fine in my experience. They tend to be accurate for the most part and Blackbolt feats from respect threads claim people have said that he can blow up planets. But the scans are always gone....so I just went to the wiki.

Wikis are horrible sources. A pretty good example is this claim that Black Bolt can blow up planets, when he can just about wipe out a city by screaming at the top of his lungs.

There exist planets smaller than large cities, made out of mud and ice.

But I agree that Wikis are generally not to be trusted, for example Superman Prime One Million. His feats put him around Odin level but the DC Wiki claims he would forcefeed the Living Tribunal his own kneecaps.

Those aren't planets. Why are you saying they are? Even pluto is bigger than a large city and pluto isn't even considered a planet anymore. Pluto is 2000 times smaller than earth. That's still far bigger than any city.

Definition of 'Planet' - "A celestial body moving in an elliptical orbit around a star"

not exactly pluto is orbiting a sun but is considered a dwarf planet now still got planet in but these city size planets that people speak of a more in comparison like captain atoms microscopic lab

#341 Posted by adhd_assassin (525 posts) - - Show Bio

can supes turn off his super hearing?

#342 Posted by termiteone4ever (7358 posts) - - Show Bio

Supes been in explosions louder than anything black bolt can produce even been crushed between two planets .. i am not sure where this battle is going . i am pretty sad about the fight with black bolt and thanos if thats all it takes to hurts thanos or to defeat black bold they have no chance against superman

#343 Posted by Blackdog2009 (1821 posts) - - Show Bio
#344 Posted by adhd_assassin (525 posts) - - Show Bio

i was just countering the "superman has super speed, bit for the sake of the plot, writer overlook it" argument. maybe the writers overlook this too. supes would be pretty pathetic if flashbangs were a weakness

#345 Posted by Zmasonite (1004 posts) - - Show Bio

Lol I can't believe this thread is still open.

#346 Edited by Baltoro (1116 posts) - - Show Bio

Can't Superman just outrun the speed of sound and dodge Blackbolt's voice attacks altogether? If he's above light speed how is he going to get tagged by soundwaves. This thread is ridiculous.

#347 Posted by CODYSF (2053 posts) - - Show Bio

Supse curbstoml bb

#348 Edited by Wolverine08 (42253 posts) - - Show Bio

Bolt soothes Superman with his sexy voice.

Online
#349 Posted by Hollow_Point (626 posts) - - Show Bio

@baltoro said:

Can't Superman just outrun the speed of sound and dodge Blackbolt's voice attacks altogether? If he's above light speed how is he going to get tagged by soundwaves. This thread is ridiculous.

i thought blackbolts powers worked with electron manipulation. I dont think it has anything to do with his voice other than starting the attack. i say blackbolt wins

Online
#350 Posted by Quanchi (281 posts) - - Show Bio

Blackbolt wins.