Black Adam vs New-52 Superman

vs

RULES

1. Both bloodlusted
2. Adam fights for Shiruta,Clark fights for Martha Kent
3. Out Character
4. Fight to the death
5. No Morals
6. Started 300.000 km far away from each other
7. Start Point:Earth

Fight starts with song

Clark

I could see Adam winning this after a tough battle but New 52 Superman will make him work for it. Fortunately for Adam though, the New 52 version isn't quite as durable, fast or versatile as his predecessor and that might allow Teth's superior physicals and lethal nature to take the advantage. I can see a 5.5/6 wins out of 10 split for Adam.

Also who's Shiruta? She's not anyone Adam knows or cares about last time I checked.

Clark rips him in half

Adam is just superior.

are you kidding supes win (because of feats)

New 52 Superman seems way too strong for Adam.

I'm going with Superman.

Teth's deceased wife

Superman wins because he ripped Doomsday in half

And what are Doomsday's feats in new 52?

Eerr he beat Wonder Woman

And what has she done?

She beat Zod and his girlfriend

And what didi they do?

Thay gave Supes trouble

And what did he do?

He ripped Doomsday in half, Duh

Superman

BA

I'm going Superman.

Superman and MMH pushed a ship that dwarfs earth in size, in the Pre 52 Superman, Wonder Woman and MMH all together couldn't move the Earth, so I think it's safe to say that New 52 Supes is way stronger than Pre 52 Superman, who I think would have been a good match for BA.

Superman every time.

@hulkman123: you should know that speed is always >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> strength.Pre- Flashpoint Clark is much faster than New-52 Clark and he never succesfully used his speed against Teth.Also Pre-52 don't lacks in strength.He shattered time and space with his punches,he lifted a book with infinite pages with Captain Marvel and held a miniature black hole in his hand.By the way Pre-52 is more durable,more versalite,more skilled and fights much better than New-52 Superman.I can accept that New-52 Superman really rocks in raw strength but he's not outmatched Pre52 Superman yet

That's... actually pretty true.

However, as far as strength is concerned, I give New 52 Superman a huge advantage.

@hulkman123: You would be wrong though.

Why's that?

@hulkman123: Nothing suggests Brainiac's ship is equivalent to Earth's weight. Plus, P-52's Superman is way more impressive in strength feat.

The black hole feat alone is impressive.

Adam, after a decent fight.

Oh his first wife? Makes sense.

Stop denying the factual evidence, you're the one who's actually reading the Doomed event. Did you see how freaking huge the ship was? Not to mention several other sources e.g the synopsis on Action Comics 34 as well as another comment by Superman in AC 34. If the ship is said to be bigger than the Earth, that means in comic book writer speak that it weighs more than the Earth too. Writers don't much care for the durability of materials, if it's bigger than the Earth, it's a planetary feat. Thus, you cannot deny the writing basis for this feat like you always tend to do.

As for Pre New 52 Superman's more impressive strength feats, the only ones that are better than that are when he lifts the Spectre with Wonder Woman, who's supposed to weigh of the Fabric of Eternity or when he lifts a book with an infinite number of pages with Captain Marvel. Ostentaciously high end feats that he hasn't replicated since.

@lvenger: Miniature black hole feat is still imressive for me though

Gallery

@dorukesin said:

@lvenger: Miniature black hole feat is still imressive for me though

Gallery

It is but it got debunked a while ago.

@lvenger: really ? I didn't read it can you show me ?

Agreed

Adam's getting more than 5.5 wins.

The main reason Pre-new 52 Superman beat Adam was speed, and I'm not even positive new 52 Clark has that over Adam considering he's countered blitzes from Jay Garrick, someone who's speed dwarfs New 52 Clarks. Not to mention how ineffective his blitzes are(Orion, who's weaker than Teth, tanked a blitz and smiled. When he was blitzing parasite his individual hits did so little damage parasite was able to talk to him). Adams feats of stalemating Post-crisis Superman and Orion and soloing the JSA are simply better than Clark, who's only around as strong as Gladiator right now.

I see Teth winning 7/10 times, the other 3 he tries to do this:

And given New 52 Supermans physical strength it won't end well.

Here's the original link in case you can't view the pictures on my copy and pasted attempt to show you the post.

Superman can survive inside a black hole unharmed

Let's analyze this assertion. Generally speaking, whenever a user submits that Superman can withstand the power of a singularity, they reference him "holding a black hole in his hand" or "flying out of a double black hole." The problem is that both of these examples disregard context. There are two occasions, to my knowledge, where Superman has come in close proximity to a black hole, both of which strained him profusely. The other instance pertaining to a "dual black hole" is completely misrepresented. If there are any other instances of Superman flying into a black hole, I hardly profess to being the most knowledgeable Superman reader, but these are the ones that are usually brought up by users here (myself included; this is as much a correction on my part as on other people's).

First, this showing is from Action Comics Annual #7. In this comic, Superman flies into space to fight the H'tros. While he destroys the H'tros vessels, one of them hurls a grenade that opens a small black hole. Superman notices this and attempts to resist its pull before being pulled in. On the rare occasion that I have seen users address this event, they usually present it as if Superman was pulled into the black hole and then escaped, but this never happened. He recognizes the black hole and flies away from it. However, the gravitational pull is powerful enough that Superman feels like his legs could be torn off. He endures genuine harm from this, and he is not even inside the black hole. Once Superman escapes its pull, he hurls a ship into its maw to collapse it. The minute size of this black hole and the fact that it could be closed by simply tossing a relatively average-sized vessel into it lead me to believe that this artificial singularity was hardly as powerful as is usually predisposed when people think of resisting the effects of a black hole, and more than that, Superman was under extreme duress just by being near it.

With that said, this comic was labeled a "Year One" story in the opening, and this was written as Superman's first space adventure. So it could be surmised that he was just not as powerful as he was later on and could therefore survive inside a black hole later in his career, an erroneous conclusion which leads us to the next example.

This is from JLA #77. To elaborate on what precedes this, a being called Mnemon uses gravity to steal people's memories, because his creator wanted to accumulate the purest expressions of art and music from the memories of entire civilizations across the universe. So Mnemon exists inside a small device that encapsulates him and his black hole in a magnetic field designed by his creator to contain him as he traverses the universe to obtain art from people's minds. (That really is all I can say about the backstory of this event because the plot of this issue is a convoluted mess.) He arrives on the moon where John Stewart and the Atom find him. Atom shrinks down to discover the singularity obstructed inside the magnetic field. Mnemon utilizes gravity to steal the JLA's memories, but their memories are restored by the Atom and Superman wrecking part of the systems of the device that houses Mnemon. After this, Mnemon pierces the magnetic field containing him, and Superman tries to stop his escape. This is where he holds the black hole. He and Green Lantern travel to a wormhole where he throws Mnemon into the wormhole. Now, why this is not impressive: the black hole inside the magnetic containment field is, according to the Atom, about the size of a dust particle, and once Superman picks it up, he can barely withstand its gravity. Even when Green Lantern helps stabilize it, Superman still feels as if his hand could be ripped apart. They only manage to reach the wormhole they hurl it into by generating a magnetic field around the singularity to suppress its effects. The containment of this singularity also leaves me with some question about its actual power, but I will leave that aside. The point is, even with Stewart's aid, Superman is hurt enormously by a dust-sized, infinitesimal black hole.

Lastly, the "double black hole" incident from Superman #191. This is just a misconstrued event because there actually is no black hole here. This actually is a wormhole connecting earth to Baxt's homeworld. To assess it point by point, Superman arrives at the S.T.A.R. Labs building where a rift is open. He flies inside to meet Baxt, who was trapped inside when he entered it from his own world. Baxt is unable to leave the rift on his own; so he reinforces Superman's efforts to escape by holding the rift open long enough for Superman to fly out and close the rift, which Superman does by flying into S.T.A.R. Labs and, apparently, (though this is shown only in one panel and without much explanation) shuts off the machine that opened the rift in the first place. Doing this closes the rift also on Baxt's world, where he arrives at once the rift is no longer present there.

Now, why do people think this is a black hole that Superman flew into? Because when he first flies into the rift, he muses about the composition of black holes, and from there, readers draw the conclusion that he was inside one. However, Superman also muses that two black holes interlocked with a passageway could form a divide in the space/time continuum, essentially generating a rift in space or a wormhole. He then goes on to say that there is no proof this could happen. Now, you could object to my saying that he was not in a black hole by isolating his statement that there is no evidence for that phenomena, but that would be reading it improperly. Superman's thought-narration was him elucidating on how the rift occurred in the first place; his suggestion that there is no evidence for a wormhole composing itself from twin black holes was expositional irony. You can tell very clearly that he was not inside a black hole if you pay attention to context. The problem is that most users simply post him emerging from the wormhole but not what happened aside from that. The first few pages show an immense rift protruding from the S.T.A.R. Labs building; had this been a black hole, it would have consumed the building. A military official informs Superman that S.T.A.R. Labs scientists opened the rift, after which pulsating energy coruscates out of it and hits the military personnel. Baxt notes that the wormhole appeared in his city as well, to which he investigated it by flying inside it. Once the rift is closed, Baxt is returned to his own planet/dimension with there being no noticeable destruction caused in the area, and others watching this once again refer to the wormhole as a "rift." The general behavior and appearance of this rift is not like a black hole; its properties and Superman's exposition attest to it being a wormhole. Hence, this is not proof of Superman surviving inside a black hole.

Conclusion: Superman has never survived inside a black hole to my knowledge. Like I said, if someone else knows of a feat I personally am not aware of, I would like to see it, because as it stands, these showings actually better serve to prove that Superman can't survive inside a black hole.

Superman's other feats put him above Adam in most of the other categories. Pre New 52 Superman has superior strength, striking power, durability, versatility and tactical thinking. Show me any feats where Adam comes close to Superman in these categories.

Adam's showings can often be grossly overrated, especially when the powerful foes he's 'beaten' like Alan Scott and Martian Manhunter were holding back or jobbing. As for 'stalemating' Pre New 52 Superman, that fight had Superman fight as a simple brawler rather than using his superior combat speed, tactical thinking and versatility he's consistently shown on many other showings. In other words, it wasn't a fight where Superman fought to his full capacity, not something that will be limiting him on the battle forums.

As for physical strength, New 52 Superman has 3 consistent planetary strength feats, most recently pushing a ship that dwarfed the size of the Earth by a huge margin. I'm afraid that your statement about Adam's physical strength being greater than New 52 Superman's is simply incorrect.

• Post Crisis Superman was jobbing to Adam.
• Orion only had a brief fight with Adam and has done much better against a morals off mind controlled Superman than Adam did to an in character Superman.
• He only soloed the JSA because Jay Garrick forgot he could speed steal and Alan Scott wasn't fighting at his best. At his best in character power levels, he's stalemated Kyle Rayner twice and has held off Mordru whose feats are just as powerful as his Pre Crisis ones according to Beatboks.

Lastly, on the "Adam not getting affected by Superman's blitzes" Superman's bullrush blitzes are definitely going to be felt by Adam.

Gallery

• Superman punched through a high tech space station in Superman Unchained 1. And in Superman Unchained 1: Director's Cut, Snyder's script states that the ship is the size of a small city block and has shields to block asteroids.
• He's blitzed Doomsday to Venus and whilst Adam is way stronger, that speaks volumes about the force and speed of Superman's blitz whilst Doomsday is attacking him physically and with his Death aura.
• And Superman has one shotted a mountain whilst attacking Helspont.

So I stand by my statement that Adam only just takes the majority of wins. He'll win the majority, that I do not disagree with. But New 52 Superman can make him work for each win.

@lvenger:

Since when have you subscribed to Frozen's logic?

I was not the first to use this logic/argument, so I ask of you kindly to not dub it ''Frozen's logic''.

Superman.

See my edit, I took it out whilst you made that comment to me.

I'm just going to attempt to contact John Byrne and get his input on what happened in Action Comics #831.

@lvenger: Thanks.

@lvenger:

Since when have you subscribed to Frozen's logic? Superman's other feats put him above Adam in most of the other categories. Pre New 52 Superman has superior strength, striking power, durability, versatility and tactical thinking. Show me any feats where Adam comes close to Superman in these categories.

I never said speed was his "only" reason. I agree that he wins in an equalized speed scenario as well and you've already had arguments with Frozen regarding Adam's stats in comparison to Superman and your arguments were unconvincing. I don't really see the need to show Adams feats when you're aware of every one of them. I've always just found speed the most important thing Clark has over Adam and the primary reason I don't argue for Adam over him.

Adam's showings can often be grossly overrated, especially when the powerful foes he's 'beaten' like Alan Scott and Martian Manhunter were holding back or jobbing. As for 'stalemating' Pre New 52 Superman, that fight had Superman fight as a simple brawler rather than using his superior combat speed, tactical thinking and versatility he's consistently shown on many other showings. In other words, it wasn't a fight where Superman fought to his full capacity, not something that will be limiting him on the battle forums.

For one thing I agree that beating J'onn isn't very impressive given how he did it. I mostly just consider him breaking Alans constructs the impressive considering Etrigans failed to do so in conditions where Alan was as emotionally unmotivated as he was then and you're fully aware how strong Etrigan is. Otherwise all he did was punch him and Alan doesn't have personal auto shields like other human lanterns.

As for his fight with Superman, your point comes across as rather hypocritical considering in one of your CAV's you referenced a number of instances where Superman has fought as a brawler, like his fights with Mongul and Kal-L in infinite crisis, or his fight with earth-man. You consistently reference him ice-incapping Bizzaro even though he brawled for the majority of that battle. Superman may have his instances where he's fought smart, but he has just as many where he's fought like a brawler. Off the top of my head he's done so in fights with:

And countless others. I agree that in the battle forums we'll assume he fights his foes like he did the imperiex probes and such, but that doesn't mean every time he doesn't do that should be written off as PIS.

As for physical strength, New 52 Superman has 3 consistent planetary strength feats, most recently pushing a ship that dwarfed the size of the Earth by a huge margin. I'm afraid that your statement about Adam's physical strength being greater than New 52 Superman's is simply incorrect.

I think you misread what I said...quite the opposite, I agree that New 52 Superman is far above Adam in physical strength and that's the main reason he'd lose a fight to Clark.

• Post Crisis Superman was jobbing to Adam.

• Orion only had a brief fight with Adam and has done much better against a morals off mind controlled Superman than Adam did to an in character Superman.

• He only soloed the JSA because Jay Garrick forgot he could speed steal and Alan Scott wasn't fighting at his best. At his best in character power levels, he's stalemated Kyle Rayner twice and has held off Mordru whose feats are just as powerful as his Pre Crisis ones according to Beatboks.

• Not really.
• Fair enough, but how did he do "better" per se? Neither of their fights concluded with either of them KOing Clark. Orion freeing Superman from mind control in one fight isn't indictive of doing better considering he wasn't when he fought Adam, and smacking him across the globe during the dominus incident didn't really hurt him so that point would also be moot.
• Alan may not have been fighting at his best like he was against Obsidian(which occured under Johns' pen as well)but he wasn't holding back noticably either. He's only stalemated Kyle once(the other fight he dominated)and that was when Kyle was bloodlusted while Alan was trying to reason with him which solidifies the notion that even under normal conditions like his fight with Adam Alan is far above Kyle, not that I'm saying Adam is as or more powerful than Kyle by any means, but neither is Superman so the point is pretty moot. I also disagree with Beatboks that the version of Mordru that Alan fought was as powerful as pre-crisis Mordru, who had on-panel galaxy busting power. I agree that Alan is far above Adam, but even under "day to day" conditions he's soundly bested Etrigan so he's not a pushover by any means.

So I stand by my statement that Adam only just takes the majority of wins.

I have to ask how you think Clark gets so many wins against someone who by your own admission is physically superior to him in most areas. If something happened in his most recent fight with Wraith(someone close to Adam strength wise who also outclasses Clark physically)that would be relevant here don't tell me as I'm reading Superman Unchained(great stuff) and would rather read that myself, because with what I know about New 52 Clark so far he lacks the means to compensate for having inferior strength to his enemy.

Clark

@lvenger: In response to your blitzes, I was actually pretty impressed by those, it's just that Bullrushes/straight line blitzes are overall less effective than Multi-hit combos and I feel like those are the implied blitz method for people fighting at that fullest. In fact many people don't even consider straight line blitzes actual blitzes. Anyway, I feel like Adam should be able to react to them.

@highaccuser:

I never said speed was his "only" reason. I agree that he wins in an equalized speed scenario as well and you've already had arguments with Frozen regarding Adam's stats in comparison to Superman and your arguments were unconvincing. I don't really see the need to show Adams feats when you're aware of every one of them. I've always just found speed the most important thing Clark has over Adam and the primary reason I don't argue for Adam over him.

I wrote out the bit about Frozen as it was unfair to use that as a comparison but I've held the view that Pre New 52 Superman's individual feats outweigh Adam's in most categories. So you were unconvinced by my arguments that Adam doesn't compare to Superman outside of speed, what part of my case let me down? I backed up my views with consistent evidence and logical reasoning so you're not giving me any specifics as to why my arguments didn't work. And I disagree strongly that my arguments on Superman>Adam even without speed were unconvincing to say the least. I've debated Frozen, Joygirl and other Black Adam experts and supported my position that Superman's individual feats trump Adam's by a fair margin. And you haven't proven why my case doesn't work nor have you proven that Adam's physicals equal Superman's physicals.

For one thing I agree that beating J'onn isn't very impressive given how he did it. I mostly just consider him breaking Alans constructs the impressive considering Etrigans failed to do so in conditions where Alan was as emotionally unmotivated as he was then and you're fully aware how strong Etrigan is. Otherwise all he did was punch him and Alan doesn't have personal auto shields like other human lanterns.

As GhostRavage pointed out in his CAV with Frozen, Alan's power levels are often inconsistently portrayed.

You cannot claim that Alan was operating at anywhere near peak capacity when he's achieved far more impressive feats and defeat/stalemate vastly more characters than Adam has. Breaking Alan's constructs is not nearly as impressive when you consider that Alan's willpower is constantly in flux, hence meaning that his power levels are also in flux.

As for his fight with Superman, your point comes across as rather hypocritical considering in one of your CAV's you referenced a number of instances where Superman has fought as a brawler, like his fights with Mongul and Kal-L in infinite crisis, or his fight with earth-man. You consistently reference him ice-incapping Bizzaro even though he brawled for the majority of that battle. Superman may have his instances where he's fought smart, but he has just as many where he's fought like a brawler. Off the top of my head he's done so in fights with:

And countless others. I agree that in the battle forums we'll assume he fights his foes like he did the imperiex probes and such, but that doesn't mean every time he doesn't do that should be written off as PIS.

May I ask how I am being hypocritical? I can't deny that Superman fights like a brawler but I can deny that he fights like a brawler all the time. That's where your hypocritical accusation falls flat because you've misinterpreted my stance. I'm pointing out that in the context of the battle forums, you cannot ignore how characters use their powers and the consistent times powerhouses like Superman have fought smartly against foes. You seem to be utilising a faulty double standard of my position as well as low selling the times Superman has fought smart against foes. Of which I can list many foes he's fought smart against too.

Amongst others. So I can flip your question back at you to note that all these times he's fought smartly shouldn't be forgotten either.

I think you misread what I said...quite the opposite, I agree that New 52 Superman is far above Adam in physical strength and that's the main reason he'd lose a fight to Clark.

Apologies for mistaking your intentions here though it seemed like you were saying Adam could overpower Superman physically. At least here we're on the same boat.

• Not really.
• Fair enough, but how did he do "better" per se? Neither of their fights concluded with either of them KOing Clark. Orion freeing Superman from mind control in one fight isn't indictive of doing better considering he wasn't when he fought Adam, and smacking him across the globe during the dominus incident didn't really hurt him so that point would also be moot.
• Alan may not have been fighting at his best like he was against Obsidian(which occured under Johns' pen as well)but he wasn't holding back noticably either. He's only stalemated Kyle once(the other fight he dominated)and that was when Kyle was bloodlusted while Alan was trying to reason with him which solidifies the notion that even under normal conditions like his fight with Adam Alan is far above Kyle, not that I'm saying Adam is as or more powerful than Kyle by any means, but neither is Superman so the point is pretty moot. I also disagree with Beatboks that the version of Mordru that Alan fought was as powerful as pre-crisis Mordru, who had on-panel galaxy busting power. I agree that Alan is far above Adam, but even under "day to day" conditions he's soundly bested Etrigan so he's not a pushover by any means.

• Yes really based on how many foes he's fought smart against. And not just weaker foes but powerful ones.
• I could use the scan where Orion one shots Superman but unfortunately it's a scan I don't buy and one I plan to debunk soon. In any case, Orion's performance against a more serious Superman in the Dominus incident and easy stalemate during Death of The New Gods demonstrate his superiority against Superman compared to Adam. Not to mention that his own series gives him loads of feats; speed feats, Astro Harness feats, Mother Box feats etc. When you take all of Orion's feats into account, it's clear why he does better against Superman than Adam does. Because Adam lacks versatility and speed.
• Adam was also registering hurt and pain from the rest of the JSA members like Hourman, Hawkman and Wildcat. When the JSA dogpiled him, Adam looked like he struggled to fight the street level JSAers so how is that a consistent measuring stick for Adam's power levels? Beating Alan Scott and taking damage from Hourman doesn't make much sense does it? I'm aware of how easily you can poke holes in my argument but my point is to show that Adam's consistency of showings can be used against him as well as for him.

I have to ask how you think Clark gets so many wins against someone who by your own admission is physically superior to him in most areas. If something happened in his most recent fight with Wraith(someone close to Adam strength wise who also outclasses Clark physically)that would be relevant here don't tell me as I'm reading Superman Unchained(great stuff) and would rather read that myself, because with what I know about New 52 Clark so far he lacks the means to compensate for having inferior strength to his enemy.

Mainly speed as, when Clark uses it, it outclasses Adam's few and limited speed showings. Secondly, though Adam is physically superior to New 52 Superman, Clark does have the physical showings to give Adam trouble in those wins. I'll up the victories Adam takes over New 52 Superman to 6-7/10 though.

And no, nothing's happened in Superman Unchained between Wraith and Superman yet. How far are you in the series?

Superman

@lvenger:

I wrote out the bit about Frozen as it was unfair to use that as a comparison but I've held the view that Pre New 52 Superman's individual feats outweigh Adam's in most categories. So you were unconvinced by my arguments that Adam doesn't compare to Superman outside of speed, what part of my case let me down? I backed up my views with consistent evidence and logical reasoning so you're not giving me any specifics as to why my arguments didn't work. And I disagree strongly that my arguments on Superman>Adam even without speed were unconvincing to say the least. I've debated Frozen, Joygirl and other Black Adam experts and supported my position that Superman's individual feats trump Adam's by a fair margin. And you haven't proven why my case doesn't work nor have you proven that Adam's physicals equal Superman's physicals.

Because your points seem to more or less relay on the notion that Superman's feats are more impressive primarily because there are more of them and they involve destroying objects of a certain density in relation to striking or...okay nevermind that's pretty confusing. What I mean is say, Adam has one-shotted Jay, which Zoom could not. He one-shotted Power Girl, who held her own against a bloodlusted Superman. Superman admits he hits harder than Captain Marvel, who's stalemated Superman 3 times. This is reasonable implication that Teth hits harder than Superman(if barely), while your justification for Superman hitting harder is he's moon busted while Adam hasn't. I dislike this because a character doesn't need to bust moons to be stronger than Superman, following that logic Despero beating Superman is PIS since he's never shown moon busting strength. You also simply declared Adam's fight with Superman "bogus" simply because you don't feel Adam's other showings agree with the notion that he could fight Superman, which is wrong on so many levels because 1) They do. 2) Characters don't need Superman level feats before fighting him and 3)There are no solid low showings to contradict the notion that Adam could fight Superman. Then you use the person who wrote it as a counterpoint which I'll address later.

I do agree that Superman is more durable since Adam has only a handful of solid durability feats.

As GhostRavage pointed out in his CAV with Frozen, Alan's power levels are often inconsistently portrayed.

A few flaws with his claims.

1. Hourman isn't nessecarily weak, just undefined. He doesn't have any feats or low showings to justify being classed as street level, so for all we know he's class 100. This isn't nessecarily bad for Adam as much as good for Hourman.
2. He's not struggling with Mr. Terrific or Wildcat by any means. He beat them both with the wave of his hand.
3. Alan is inconsistent, but at a consistent rate. Does that make sense? He's either at emotionally motivated power levels, or not emotionally motivated power levels. He clearly wasn't fighting Adam like he did Obsidian, Mordru or Gog, but even other than those fights, his power level is otherwise pretty consistent. He was as powerful as when he beat Etrigan as when Adam beat him, implying Adam exceeds Etrigan by a fair margin.

You cannot claim that Alan was operating at anywhere near peak capacity when he's achieved far more impressive feats and defeat/stalemate vastly more characters than Adam has. Breaking Alan's constructs is not nearly as impressive when you consider that Alan's willpower is constantly in flux, hence meaning that his power levels are also in flux.

Again, I never said he was at peak capacity, but even his less than peak capacity he's pretty damn powerful, and has a consistent level of power in that state.

May I ask how I am being hypocritical? I can't deny that Superman fights like a brawler but I can deny that he fights like a brawler all the time. That's where your hypocritical accusation falls flat because you've misinterpreted my stance. I'm pointing out that in the context of the battle forums, you cannot ignore howcharacters use their powers and the consistent times powerhouses like Superman have fought smartly against foes. You seem to be utilising a faulty double standard of my position as well as low selling the times Superman has fought smart against foes. Of which I can list many foes he's fought smart against too.

Amongst others. So I can flip your question back at you to note that all these times he's fought smartly shouldn't be forgotten either.

I'm not denying that Superman fights smartly quite often and in the battle forums should do exactly that, in fact I've found it to be a fascinating concept since you brought it up in my other thread. The problem is what you're doing is saying that Adams fight should be disregarded simply because he didn't fight smart. While that is a sound reason for the fight being poor evidence that Adam beats Superman, the problem is that the fight isn't used as evidence for Adam beating Superman because he can't, it's simply evidence for having the physicals to stalemate Superman while not wanting to fight. If we're to simply disregard that based on Superman fighting poorly than you'd have to call every single time Superman hasn't fought smart as PIS, and you've referenced a number of those fights in your debates.

Apologies for mistaking your intentions here though it seemed like you were saying Adam could overpower Superman physically. At least here we're on the same boat.

Yeah he's getting handily beat in that respect, although the recent feat is a bit laughable considering how impractical it is that Brainiac could even make such a ship. No matter.

• That doesn't suddenly mean he was physically jobbing. That doesn't make him any weaker or less durable.
• The time Orion would've been the Byrne era Superman(then again him moving the earth took place when he was at the same power levels so Idk). Like I said, in none of those fights did his performace outclass Adams as he never really harmed Superman any more than Adam did. Which isn't to say I don't agree that orion is superior to Adam.
• Being harmed by Hawkman isn't all that bad considering that Hawkmans harmed despero and Gog, and at no point did Adam appear to be having a hard time with street levelers(Hawkman isn't street level and there's no real grounds for Hourman being classed as such either). I disagree with the notion that there's any inconsistency in that fight and I have trouble interpreting it as such.

Mainly speed as, when Clark uses it, it outclasses Adam's few and limited speed showings. Secondly, though Adam is physically superior to New 52 Superman, Clark does have the physical showings to give Adam trouble in those wins. I'll up the victories Adam takes over New 52 Superman to 6-7/10 though.

What speed showings are above reacting to Jay? I can otherwise agree with your assessment.

And no, nothing's happened in Superman Unchained between Wraith and Superman yet. How far are you in the series?

Well other than that time Wraith slapped him across the country and Superman flashed not-kryptonite in his face. I read issue 7, for some reason I thought there was another issue. Don't know why I thought that...oh well.

Black Adam, just IMO; Clark puts up an amazing fight.

Clark

Superman.

Superman bloodlusted is scary stuff. Adam is already a usually pissed off guy, but if he were bloodlusted I honestly think he would murder Superman. Obviously Superman would put up a big big fight but I think Adam would take this.

Superman.

Yes. New 52 Superman should win 6/10

Oh and It seems like he's matches his Post Crisis counter part in durability and speed too.

new 52 supermans only advantage over post crisis superman is the strength......... i have yet to see feats, which prove that he is better than the old version in other areas.......... his striking and his durability are much lower......... black adam wins this one easy as long as it's not an arm wrestling or choking contest..............

@mezame: Look at this durability...

Adam.

@war_ruin said:

@mezame: Look at this durability...

post crisis superman has more solid durability feats than just that............ that might even be a rather low durability feat lol................ and that was also an amped superman (with doomsday) whatever that means for his power level........ but probably not much with greg pak saying that superdoom couldn't beat hulk