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#1 Edited by CalebHara (2329 posts) - - Show Bio

Bizarro and Superman vs Thor and Beta Ray Bill

Rules for this battle go as followed

  • No BFR
  • No allies or external resources, besides the alliances already presented
  • Both teams work together and get along fine
  • Morals off
  • Both teams have standard gear, weapons and armour
  • Battle is won by Death, Incapacitation, K.O. or Surrender
  • Both teams have only no prior knowledge of each other

Battle takes place here

The Moon, Rules regarding location go as followed

  • No Bystanders (obviously)
  • They begin 10 kilometres away from each other
  • Fully interactive environment
  • Once again, No BFR
  • Battle begins on the moon, it can be taken anywhere

WHO WINS?

#2 Posted by spawn_123 (1693 posts) - - Show Bio

Hammer bros

#3 Posted by CalebHara (2329 posts) - - Show Bio

@spawn_123 said:

Hammer bros

why?

#4 Posted by War_Hulk_Kills_Sentry2 (555 posts) - - Show Bio

marvel

#5 Posted by Floopay (8721 posts) - - Show Bio

Hammer Bros.

They have the magic to give them a boost, the reflexes to handle the other teams speed, they have superior fighting styles and experience. They have greater versatility, and with knowledge on their opponents they could potentially use their energy absorption to drain Supes.

Even without energy absorption they have superior striking power, greater energy projection (and magical energy projection), magical weapons, and as already stated, superior versatility.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

#6 Posted by spawn_123 (1693 posts) - - Show Bio

@CalebHara said:

@spawn_123 said:

Hammer bros

why?

Maybe because they have more fire power and Superman don't like magic and have much more H2H skills

#7 Posted by CalebHara (2329 posts) - - Show Bio

@Floopay: Would this be a better fight if is said that there was no knowledge of each other? And how does team hammer have superior striking power?

#8 Posted by New_World_Order (13050 posts) - - Show Bio

Hammer Bros.

#9 Posted by Jedisupermaster (1149 posts) - - Show Bio

@ThunderGodsWrath said:

Hammer Bros.

#10 Posted by dondave (36581 posts) - - Show Bio

Team 1

#11 Posted by FiMFTW (687 posts) - - Show Bio

Goldilocks and Ponyboy

#12 Posted by Floopay (8721 posts) - - Show Bio

@CalebHara said:

@Floopay: Would this be a better fight if is said that there was no knowledge of each other? And how does team hammer have superior striking power?

Without any sort of amplification, Superman's greatest feat is destroying half a moon. And it nearly KO'd him in the process. Both BRB and Thor have shattered planets and planetoids.

Even without knowledge, that only limits Thor and BRB in the sense they they are less likely to pull the Solar energy out of Superman's body.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

#13 Posted by spawn_123 (1693 posts) - - Show Bio

@Floopay said:

@CalebHara said:

@Floopay: Would this be a better fight if is said that there was no knowledge of each other? And how does team hammer have superior striking power?

Without any sort of amplification, Superman's greatest feat is destroying half a moon. And it nearly KO'd him in the process. Both BRB and Thor have shattered planets and planetoids.

Even without knowledge, that only limits Thor and BRB in the sense they they are less likely to pull the Solar energy out of Superman's body.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

I agree

#14 Posted by blackadamFTW (7867 posts) - - Show Bio

@Floopay said:

the reflexes to handle the other teams speed

No, just....no.

#15 Posted by Floopay (8721 posts) - - Show Bio

@blackadamFTW said:

@Floopay said:

the reflexes to handle the other teams speed

No, just....no.

Why not? Neither Superman or Bizarro are light speed in combat, and Beta Ray Bill can perceive things moving at multiple times the speed of light, and both of them often block, deflect, and avoid lightspeed attacks.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

#16 Posted by joeagentofhand1 (4362 posts) - - Show Bio

I see team two winning

#17 Edited by Daaerk (204 posts) - - Show Bio

@Floopay my buddy! :D Superman DC fanboys are going to cut themselves after reading your posts. Nice job!

As for the thread, I see Thor and Beta Ray Bill winning. They have worked together many times, have thousands of years of experience, reflexes to handle Superman-like-speeds, they have (near) indestructible magical weapons, versatility, pure speed etc. etc. etc. Especially morals off, Superman and Bizarro are out of luck here. “Goldilocks”’s and “Mr. Ed”’s hammers can move twice the speed of light and faster (as it was already proven with Thor’s Mjölnir where Silver Surfer watched in jealousy as Thor’s hammer entered hyperspace :D), so managing with Superman’s and Bizarro’s speed shouldn’t be a problem at all. The Hammers can also move at their own accord, so Thor can sit back and relax as his magical Mjölnir rams itself into Superman’s face at more than 2 times faster than light speed.

As I have explained, Thor and Beta Ray Bill totally win this. =DDD

Daaerk

#18 Posted by blackadamFTW (7867 posts) - - Show Bio

@Floopay said:

@blackadamFTW said:

@Floopay said:

the reflexes to handle the other teams speed

No, just....no.

Why not? Neither Superman or Bizarro are light speed in combat, and Beta Ray Bill can perceive things moving at multiple times the speed of light, and both of them often block, deflect, and avoid lightspeed attacks.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

Well, Bizarro flew Grundy into the sun before he could even react, and Grundy is the guy who pimp slapped a blitzing Jay Garrick away pretty easily, and stomped Amazo (the guy who out reacted Flash). Bizzaro is pretty damn fast and was reacting to objects when he was racing with Zoom (so he had to be racing pretty damn fast). I'd say Bizarro is at least FTL in combat.

#19 Edited by Lvenger (19347 posts) - - Show Bio

@Floopay: When has BRB ever done that? Hell when has Thor ever done something like that? I've never seem any of them deflect FTL attacks so you're pulling at straws here. Thor's combat speed feats are very poor and I find it disheartening that you overlook them. With speedblitz still allowed, Thor can still sucumb to that allowing Superman and Bizarro to double team BRB. Superman and Bizarro may only be hypersonic+ combat speed but Superman has nanosecond reaction times which puts him way above the hammer bros. I don't see them winning this.

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#20 Posted by Lvenger (19347 posts) - - Show Bio

@blackadamFTW: I doubt that Bizarro is FTL combat wise. Slim87D has written a compelling blog on why Superman does not have FTL combat speed. But both of them are hypersonic+ which is more than enough for the hammer bros.

@Daaerk said:

@Floopay my buddy! :D Superman DC fanboys are going to cut themselves after reading your posts. Nice job!

As for the thread, I see Thor and Beta Ray Bill winning. They have worked together many times, have thousands of years of experience, reflexes to handle Superman-like-speeds, they have (near) indestructible magical weapons, versatility, pure speed etc. etc. etc. Especially morals off, Superman and Bizarro are out of luck here. “Goldilocks”’s and “Mr. Ed”’s hammers can move twice the speed of light and faster (as it was already proven with Thor’s Mjölnir where Silver Surfer watched in jealousy as Thor’s hammer entered hyperspace :D), so managing with Superman’s and Bizarro’s speed shouldn’t be a problem at all. The Hammers can also move at their own accord, so Thor can sit back and relax as his magical Mjölnir rams itself into Superman’s face at more than 2 times faster than light speed.

As I have explained, Thor and Beta Ray Bill totally win this. =DDD

Daaerk

Sorry to break this down for you but teamwork is negligable since Superman and Bizarro get on fine too. Thor's reflexes are nothing to speak of given that he's been blitzed by Spider-Man, Mongoose, Captain America and even Amadeus Cho, an ordinary human. Thor hardly uses his versatile weapon unless facing cosmic/skyfather entities so that cancels versatility out. So Mjolnir can go 2 times the speed of light travel speed wise? Interesting. Superman has been calculated as travelling at 5.9 billion mph during the Sacrifice fight with Wonder Woman. So he easily outclasses Mjolnir there. So speed wise the hammer bros aren't cutting it. Nanospeed reactions and vibration should handle the moving hammers with ease.

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#21 Posted by Pyrogram (36610 posts) - - Show Bio

@Lvenger: The hammer can go WAY faster than 2 times! It traveled the entire universe in like..30 seconds?

#22 Posted by Floopay (8721 posts) - - Show Bio

@Lvenger said:

@Floopay: When has BRB ever done that? Hell when has Thor ever done something like that? I've never seem any of them deflect FTL attacks so you're pulling at straws here. Thor's combat speed feats are very poor and I find it disheartening that you overlook them. With speedblitz still allowed, Thor can still sucumb to that allowing Superman and Bizarro to double team BRB. Superman and Bizarro may only be hypersonic+ combat speed but Superman has nanosecond reaction times which puts him way above the hammer bros. I don't see them winning this.

Why? Thor has taken on the Silver Surfer, Gladiator, Sentry, and so many others.

Beta Ray Bill vs. Surfer

As you can see, even the Silver Surfer can't speed blitz BRB, he had to use his board to catch BRB by surprise.

Beta Ray Bill can perceive things moving multiple times the speed of light.

Adam Warlock comments on Thor's speed, which is probably why he can keep up with Surfer and him simultaneously

I don't really feel like looking it up, but Thor has beaten Surfer at least twice, maybe even more. He's also one upped Gladiator. All these characters are as fast, if not faster than Superman.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

#23 Posted by Lvenger (19347 posts) - - Show Bio

@Pyrogram: I assume you mean this feat?

For all we know it may not have gone to the farthest reaches of the galaxy. Just far enough before being needed to reunite with Thor. Furthermore when the 60 second enchantment was in place there were many occasions where turning back into Don Blake threatened his life yet did the hammer come back to him in time? No. Plus vibrating and nanosecond reaction times cancel out the hammers following Superman and Bizarro so most likely they won't graze them.

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#24 Posted by Pyrogram (36610 posts) - - Show Bio

@Lvenger: It did go as Thor said it, lying is not a trait of Thors :) I guess, If Thor wanted to he would just blitz them with his hammer, but that is way out of character. - Or not.

Lol, Classic feats ftw

#25 Posted by Lvenger (19347 posts) - - Show Bio

@Floopay: BRB is impressive but Thor's one feat there does not cancel out all his other poor combat speed showings. Without the hammer Spider-Man, Mongoose and Amadeus Cho have been shown to blitz him. Even with the hammer Thor's done nothing special. In those fights you talk about none of the characters, Surfer, Sentry or Glad used their superior speed advantage to beat Thor. That's the deal clincher for plot convenience.

Furthermore that feat is hyperbole. Deathstroke has been said to 'move like lightning' yet that's clearly not the case. Sentry doesn't have the feats both travel and combat speed wise to compare to Superman and Silver Surfer only has better travel speed, not combat speed. Ask Killemall or CitizenBane and they'll tell you that Surfer's combat speed feats are nothing that special, not enough to combat with Superman anyway. Finally I gave a 5.9 billion mph speed showing for Superman. How does Gladiator beat that? He's the closest thing Marvel has to beating Superman I grant you but I haven't seen him beat that feat yet.

All in all Thor will still get blitzed and as good as BRB is he can't handle Superman and Bizarro.

Online
#26 Posted by Lvenger (19347 posts) - - Show Bio

@Pyrogram: Again that's one showing against characters who can't vibrate their molecules at superspeed or have nanosecond reactions to dodge it. That tactic won't work on Team 1.

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#27 Edited by Pyrogram (36610 posts) - - Show Bio

@Lvenger: Technically they will not be able to react to dodge it, But yer, I understand you :P

#28 Posted by Lvenger (19347 posts) - - Show Bio

@Pyrogram: How won't they be able to react to it? I'm sure it won't take less than a nanosecond for them to dodge or vibrate through the hammers.

Unfortunately tis getting late in Britain and I must get some sleep. I'll reply to this tomorrow for sure. And if you make a response to my comment Floopay I'll happily reply to your comment too.

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#29 Edited by Pyrogram (36610 posts) - - Show Bio

@Lvenger: I am in the UK also dude :P I meant, techincally if it can reach the whole universe and back, It is faster than the reaction speed but its not a debate as Thor will never fight like that :P

#30 Posted by Floopay (8721 posts) - - Show Bio

@Lvenger said:

@Floopay: BRB is impressive but Thor's one feat there does not cancel out all his other poor combat speed showings. Without the hammer Spider-Man, Mongoose and Amadeus Cho have been shown to blitz him. Even with the hammer Thor's done nothing special. In those fights you talk about none of the characters, Surfer, Sentry or Glad used their superior speed advantage to beat Thor. That's the deal clincher for plot convenience.

Furthermore that feat is hyperbole. Deathstroke has been said to 'move like lightning' yet that's clearly not the case. Sentry doesn't have the feats both travel and combat speed wise to compare to Superman and Silver Surfer only has better travel speed, not combat speed. Ask Killemall or CitizenBane and they'll tell you that Surfer's combat speed feats are nothing that special, not enough to combat with Superman anyway. Finally I gave a 5.9 billion mph speed showing for Superman. How does Gladiator beat that? He's the closest thing Marvel has to beating Superman I grant you but I haven't seen him beat that feat yet.

All in all Thor will still get blitzed and as good as BRB is he can't handle Superman and Bizarro.

I think Thor's speed is drastically underrated. Thor has to hold back against guys like Mongoose, Captain America, Spider Man, and Amadeus Cho. If Thor were to use so much as 0.01% of his maximum striking power, they would explode like Rorschach confronting Doctor Manhattan. And yes, I can prove that. So it's not unreasonable to assume that if he can't strike them with anywhere near his full striking power without blowing them to pieces that he'd hold back in speed (which is a huge part of striking power) and strength alike.

However, when he goes up against real powerhouses.

Thor vs. Heimdall

Thor vs. Hermes, the God of Speed

Catches Mjonlir after it was thrown at him, and only a few microseconds from hitting his face, he even has time to throw a punch at Magnir before he turns around and catches it.

So which instance is more likely an indicator of Thor's combat speed? Him fighting street levelers who would explode if he used a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of his might against, or him fighting people on his level who keep commenting how fast he is?

Also, are we really to believe that every cosmic being Thor faces feels sorry for him, and decides to not use their speed against him? I find that idea completely ridiculous, if someone regularly fights with nanosecond+ reaction speed, why would they decide to slow down below that fighting speed to fight someone like Thor, who pretty easily keeps up with and overpowers people with proven nanosecond+ reaction times.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

#31 Posted by ULTRAstarkiller (6115 posts) - - Show Bio

@spawn_123: But isn't the moon even closer to the sun so the more powerful their get ?

#32 Edited by CalebHara (2329 posts) - - Show Bio

@Floopay said:

@CalebHara said:

@Floopay: Would this be a better fight if is said that there was no knowledge of each other? And how does team hammer have superior striking power?

Without any sort of amplification, Superman's greatest feat is destroying half a moon. And it nearly KO'd him in the process. Both BRB and Thor have shattered planets and planetoids.

Even without knowledge, that only limits Thor and BRB in the sense they they are less likely to pull the Solar energy out of Superman's body.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

For the record, they have destroyed full moons, cut a moon of saturn in half, which is probably more impressive than destroying it. He has destroyed planetoids without any amplifications. He has been in several fights where even on the defensive his opponents claim that he hits with the force to destroy planets.

It seems rather even to me.

#33 Posted by CalebHara (2329 posts) - - Show Bio

@Lvenger: is it in character for Superman and Bizarro to vibrate through attacks?

#34 Edited by Lvenger (19347 posts) - - Show Bio

@Pyrogram: ROne instance of doing that doesn't outweigh the times Thor hasn't thrown it at that speed at his opponents.

@Floopay: I'm afraid it's not a case of holding back, it's a case of Thor doesn't have the combat speed to compete with them. Captain America has commented on Masterson's lack of speed, saying that Thor displayed a similar flaw. Also you've only proved that Thor's striking power is up to the task of harming Team 1, not that they can land a hit on them. As for your feats, two of them are sheer hyperbole once again. There's a similar feat where it's thought that Thor is fighting at lightspeed yet that is to do with the chamber they are fighting in, not the speed Thor has at his disposal. Only the Hermes one is legit and he most likely wasn't looking to react to Thor's grabbing him. The times Thor has been lacking in speed far outweigh the times he's shown decent combat speed feats and even those aren't enough to contend with Superman and Bizarro. Thor is still the weak link here, as much as I love the guy. I sense you'll have a response to this so allow me to gather some more cases to counter your post.

Edit: Another thing I think would be worth checking out Floopay is this thread. It's about Thor's combat speed and includes very strong arguments in my favour from CitizenBane, Killemall, Baldy, Buckshot and more on how Thor's combat speed and reaction times aren't up to scratch with how you seem to be rating them. It's 11 pages so bear that in mind: http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles/7/thor-runs-the-combat-speed-gautlet/691255/?

@CalebHara: Oh it's very in character. He's vibrated through attacks on multiple occasions including when he went up against Doomsday, Mongul and Mongal and someone else who I can't remember. He's performed this numerous times so I see it being perfectly in character for Superman to vibrate through the hammers when they're thrown at him.

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#35 Posted by terry2012 (5093 posts) - - Show Bio

Is Bizarro weak to magic?

#36 Posted by Lvenger (19347 posts) - - Show Bio

@terry2012: He hasn't shown a vulnerability to magic but that's probably because he hasn't gone up against any magic users.

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#37 Posted by terry2012 (5093 posts) - - Show Bio

@Lvenger: Okay, thanks. Is he weak to krytonite?

#38 Posted by Lvenger (19347 posts) - - Show Bio

@terry2012: Only blue kryptonite, not green kryptonite.

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#39 Posted by terry2012 (5093 posts) - - Show Bio

@Lvenger: Okay, so he like Ultraman being weak to blue Kryptonite right? Is Ultraman ( the superman version) weak to magic?

#40 Posted by Lvenger (19347 posts) - - Show Bio

@terry2012: Again that's not clearly defined so I can't say for certain.

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#41 Posted by terry2012 (5093 posts) - - Show Bio

@Lvenger: Okay.

Has fought Black Adam or Captain Marvel?

#42 Posted by Lvenger (19347 posts) - - Show Bio

@terry2012: Has Bizarro ever fought CM or BA is your question I assume? In that case no he hasn't. Which is a shame really.

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#43 Posted by terry2012 (5093 posts) - - Show Bio

@Lvenger: Yes, Yes it is a shame.

#44 Posted by CalebHara (2329 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump

#45 Posted by Floopay (8721 posts) - - Show Bio

@Lvenger said:

@Pyrogram: ROne instance of doing that doesn't outweigh the times Thor hasn't thrown it at that speed at his opponents.

@Floopay: I'm afraid it's not a case of holding back, it's a case of Thor doesn't have the combat speed to compete with them. Captain America has commented on Masterson's lack of speed, saying that Thor displayed a similar flaw. Also you've only proved that Thor's striking power is up to the task of harming Team 1, not that they can land a hit on them. As for your feats, two of them are sheer hyperbole once again. There's a similar feat where it's thought that Thor is fighting at lightspeed yet that is to do with the chamber they are fighting in, not the speed Thor has at his disposal. Only the Hermes one is legit and he most likely wasn't looking to react to Thor's grabbing him. The times Thor has been lacking in speed far outweigh the times he's shown decent combat speed feats and even those aren't enough to contend with Superman and Bizarro. Thor is still the weak link here, as much as I love the guy. I sense you'll have a response to this so allow me to gather some more cases to counter your post.

Edit: Another thing I think would be worth checking out Floopay is this thread. It's about Thor's combat speed and includes very strong arguments in my favour from CitizenBane, Killemall, Baldy, Buckshot and more on how Thor's combat speed and reaction times aren't up to scratch with how you seem to be rating them. It's 11 pages so bear that in mind: http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles/7/thor-runs-the-combat-speed-gautlet/691255/?

@CalebHara: Oh it's very in character. He's vibrated through attacks on multiple occasions including when he went up against Doomsday, Mongul and Mongal and someone else who I can't remember. He's performed this numerous times so I see it being perfectly in character for Superman to vibrate through the hammers when they're thrown at him.

Except Thor fights people who outclass Superman in speed all the time. And I've already commented on Thor vs. Street Levelers. If Thor used so much as .01% of his full striking power he would make them explode into confetti, so it seems much more reasonable to listen to people like Gaea and Adam Warlock commenting on Thor's speed when he can actually let loose his full power, than to base his speed on people who he has to hold back almost all of his striking power against unless he wants to make them explode like a cardboard box with a grenade in it.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

#46 Posted by logy5000 (5732 posts) - - Show Bio

How is it that I haven't thought of this fight?

#47 Posted by Manwhohaseverything (1888 posts) - - Show Bio

I think one needs to be careful saying what Superman's greatest feat is,. I notice for Superman, it's been relegated to the past few years, where destroying a moon and getting knocked out in the process is "His greatest feat." Yet with Thor, you're willing to go back to the classic Thor days. If you're going to do that, than folks arguing for Superman should be able to go back to the Silver Age, where Superman has many insane feats far beyond his little moon excursion.

I think the main thing the Hammer team has going for them is the magic properties of the hammers. Superman would be affected by them the same way any normal human would, so if Thor and BRB don't hold back..and against opponents like this, why would they?...I think Thor and BRB have a slight edge. Though not as big as the folks that seem to think any Marvel character can beat any DC character. (I bet someone out there has Captain American beating Superman.)

#48 Posted by War_Hulk_Kills_Sentry2 (555 posts) - - Show Bio

@Manwhohaseverything: he could just needs a chunk of kryptonite and a sword and his head slips of his shoulders

#49 Posted by Lvenger (19347 posts) - - Show Bio

That comment does suggest you haven't even read the link I gave you. The arguments given there show how combat and reaction speed wise Thor doesn't even compare to Superman. So even with his striking feats that's of no concern.

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#50 Posted by logy5000 (5732 posts) - - Show Bio

Superman has nanosecond reaction speed, so how does team 2 land a hit?