Bills vs Silver Surfer

Some people still think just raw destructive power is enough to qualify someone on Odin's level. Did Bills ever show telepathy, reality warping, creation ability, telekinesis, soul manipulation, energy and matter manipulation, size manipulation, or time manipulation? Blowing something up have limit. One pro-DBZ debator (forget his name, but he's very experienced) admit that there's no DBZ characters that is on Odin's level.

Franklin Richard is probably a universe buster, but is he inherently invulnerable? No? Does that mean he can survive universe-busting attack (unless he wished himself to be indestructible beforehand)? No!

Yes bills is a galaxy buster but that is Manga feats

Anime feats are much better as there is more destruction

Spiderman stomps those plant headed fa---ts

I know this is old now but I just have to point this out. The guidebook. The Daisenshuu was created using the anime and manga as a refrence. Essentially. The Daisenshuu only regurgetated what was presented in the manga. Which is Cell's statement that he could blow away the entire solar system.

What we have here is this Source A makes Claim A and Source B supports Claim A. On the surface this would appear to validate Claim A. However the only Source B has is Source A and thus, since Source A is what is being quetioned, Source B can't be used as validation as it is essentialy using Source A, the source being questioned, to validate the Claim. And thus the dillema. The Daisenshuu are not an idependent source and they were created directly refrencing from the Manga and since the Manga is being questioned, a guidebook whose only source of validity is the very manga being questioned isn't a valid argument to make.

We also seldom argue using Guidebooks here. Both Marvel and DC guidebooks have been proven false and are only used for refrences and not legitimate feats at least never in a good argument. The fact is, Buu, many times more powerful then Cell didn't even destroy a solar system. He launched a powerful attack and was stated having destoryed only earth with a giant explosive atttack. There is literally no reason he wouldn't have destoryed everything he could with that attack but he's only stated as destroying the earth. If you include the anime, they even show him going from planet to planet to drestoy them. This clearly indicatesthat he's a hard planet buster in comparison to Frieza's much softer planet breaking. Bills is certainly impressive. But provide feats. Legitimate feats so they can be quantified and analyzed.

@dangerousloki said:

Cell was clearly not exaggerating, it's visibly obvious that he's not bluffing in both the manga and anime. The claims of hyperbole are completely unfounded and have no evidence backing them.

It's common sense that Cell was a casual solar system buster by his Super Perfect form. If you disagree with that common knowledge fact (Frieza at 1% power destroying Namek, and at 100% power is a fraction of Trunks, who is a fraction of Imperfect Cell, who is a fraction of Semi-perfect Cell, who is a fraction of Perfect Cell, etc.) then watch/read the series for yourself. There is plenty of evidence, and the official statement in the handbook is the paramount irrefutable source.

Why do you think Buu would want to "destroy everything he could with that attack"? What is your reasoning for that? The reason he made it far larger than his first attack was because Vegeta knocked it away. He was only trying to destroy the Earth, what does Mars or Venus concern him?

The Daizenshuu is to provide clarity. For example, it's kind of obscure whether or not Cell actually was able to destroy a solar system with his attack like he claimed, right? Thus, they confirm it to be true.

It depends on the definition of destroying a solar system, destroy every planets and Sun in it, one by one or simply unleash a blast that engulf entire volume of the space at once? I think most people think it's the latter case, that is far greater in magnitude than destroying dozen planets, and it's sounds more implausible.

Anime is also non canon, but I'm pretty sure movie characters don't exist in the manga including Bills unless there has been a BOTG's manga that was recently released

I'd also like to see evidence of Bills being able to destroy a galaxy or a solar system and not hyperbolic statements, because you'd have to be 3250x more powerful than SSJ3 to destroy a solar system, since according to kili and simple math SSJ3 Goku should be able to destroy 400 planets

@thc: There's no proof he wasn't exagerating. The fact is. Cell didn't come anywhere near destroying the Solar System. He made a statement that he could. The validity of it is doubtful considering that he neither acheived this, nor has any character in DBZ acheived this feat except apparently Broly, but even that is called into suspicion but I won't debate that as it is both uncannon and I've not seen the movie. Your logic, which requires horrendous power scaling a practice which we tend to try and avoid, is flawed as Frieza himself was only ever depicted as destroying a planet (Planet Namek) by destroying the planetary core. There is no evidence he could do it any other way. And taking that into consideration, the planetary core isn't the most stable thing and it requires far less force and power to destroy it (in fiction) then it would to destroy the entire planet casually (as Buu does later, launching a single attack and completly obliterating the planet.) and thus we can create a scale of power from Frieza to Buu rather easily based on their actual in panel feats.

We have Frieza who is an established low end planet buster/planet breaker based on his feats and is on the low end of the scale. This is established and evidenced by on panel feats. He destroys a planet by destroying it's core. This is what he does in the manga and in the anime. It's what we see happen and we can quantify it based on that.

On the other end of the scale we have Majin Buu. Kid Buu, the most powerful version of Buu and the most powerful enemy the Z-Fighters faced in the DBZ manga and Anime. He also has a planet destroying feat. A high end planet destroying feat. He completly obliterates Earth with a single strike to the planets surface. That is planet busting. And casually so. This character is established as more powerful then Frieza and based on their respective feats, we can see their power level lines. It is established that Buu is many times more powerful the Frieza. He has a feat that puts him many times more powerful then Frieza. So based on Feats and other evidence within the manga and anime that establish this heiarchy we can see that Frieza is the lowest end threat and Buu the highest threat. Cell is established as being in the middle of this heiarchy. And with the scale firmly established by feats, we can place Cell's power level as a mid tier planet buster.

Is this proof? No. It's logical calculation and analysis but it is not fact. However, it is supported by actual feats in the manga/anime. On the other hand we have the other argument based on Cell's boast (And it is clearly a boast even if you want to argue it's validity)

Clearly Cell wouldn't fit on the prior scale if he could destroy a solar system, however if we use that bold statement as fact then we're left with a new conundrum. In order to accomodate Cell's "Solar System Busting" power we would have to also speculate at both Frieza's and Buu's ultimate power level to accomodate for it. So which sounds more reasonable, speculating power levels based on an offhanded boast of one character or using logical deductive reasoning to set parameters for that character based on feats and established content?

I will say again. The Daizenshuu is not a seperate entity. It is not a fact book. It's is a collective resource. It is the equivalent of a wikipedia page. It uses only the manga to support itself and is only as reliable as the manga itself. When the manga is what is being questioned, the Daizenshuu cannot be used as a support as it depends on the manga for validity. It is not a "fact source" it is merely referential data collected to make it easier for Dragon Ball fans to keep track of the Dragon Ball contunuity as the series was originally printed by chapter in a magazine that had many other manga chapters contained with in and thus it was very difficult to be able to go back and refrence something from an earlier chapter without having to comb through dozens if not hundreds of magazines. It is a record of continuity. Not an independent fact refrence.

@dangerousloki: If I remembered correctly, Bills never bust a galaxy in the film, it's just a statement made by other character that he can, but no hint that he have. And my rationale to reject Cell's boast is not only because he never done it, but the gap between destroying solar system and destroying planets are huge, even if he could easily destroyed a planet still doesn't support the argument, the volume of space is huge. And the ambiguity of "destroying the solar system," if it destroy one planet at a time, then it sounds more possible, but if it is to fill the entire volume of the solar system in fireball, that doesn't sounds correct on someone of Cell's level in comparison with the rest of the characters.

@angryhulks: I haven't seen the movie thus far. What I have seen of Bills is highly impressive though. I wouldn't put him at a galaxy buster. I'd argue that Bills vs Thanos would be a crazy awesome fight. And based on the very little video I've seen of Bills feats, I'd actually have to kind of give it to him. I think it'd be a great battle. And probably exists already. Based on that. I think Bills might take SS. But I am still undecided until I get more feats from him.

I discount Cell's boast purely on that it doesn't add up. And yes. I agree. It is far harder to destroy a solar system then anyone realizes. I don't believe Cell can do it. But I also have a very logical justification beyond that with the established feats. So I agree with you. I just provide additional justification beyond that as well.

@angryhulks: @dangerousloki: @kenbukaiten:

http://www.screwattack.com/news/cell-solar-system-buster-0

Cell can blow away an entire Solar System for 4 reasons:

1. Akira Toriyama wrote it that way
2. Every piece of Media confirms this
3. A “Film Anime Comics” Guide (which is like an official guide) confirms this
4. If we look at story arcs and character progression Cell would need to logically be able to do this.

Argument: “Cell was going to destroy the solar system one planet at a time.”

Counter Argument: “That line never appeared in the manga or anime.”

Argument: “Cell was going to destroy the sun.”

Counter Argument: “That statement never appeared in the manga or anime. What Akira Toriyama, the author, wrote for Cell is “I’ve already gathered enough ki power to blow away not only the Earth, but the solar system as well!” That’s what appears in the manga and is therefore OFFICIAL.” (Thanks to DBZGTKOSDH at kanzenshuu for the correction.) The solar system includes the sun and all of the planets. It shouldn’t be taken out of context.

Argument: “Cell was bluffing and lied.”

Counter Argument: “Internet nerds said that. But neither the author of the story nor the company he worked for have ever said that. The characters in the story never said that either. It is NOT official and NEVER appears in the story ever.”

Argument: “There’s no additional proof Cell can do that.”

Counter Argument: “The Japanese company printed a guidebook that states Cell can destroy the solar system. This is NOT Internet Nerd opinion, but from OFFICIAL SOURCES; it COUNTS infinitely more than ANY NERD’S OPINION, mine included.”

Argument: “Cell’s beam didn’t look that impressive.”

Counter Argument: “Piccolo, when he was weak at the beginning of the story, could blow up the moon with a casual normal level energy blast WITHOUT CHARGING HIS ENERGY. While at that same level of power he could not harm Raditz, Goku’s evil brother, so Piccolo CHARGED HIS ENERGY and focused his energy into a small and narrow beam and killed Raditz while Goku held him, so small and narrow beams are usually at higher power than wide beams.

Silver Surfer still wins via Intangibility and TP.

@sondeatheater: I've already seen that and it's not valid. I've already addressed the Daizenshuu's lack of validity. The rest of it is just fanboy arguments. It contributes nothing to the discussion and doesn't counter the perfectly valid arguments to counter the boast.

According to OBD (outskirts battledome) Bills is a MFTL solar system buster

http://www.obdwiki.com/character-profile-bills

The galaxy busting statement didn't make it into the actual film for unkown reasons

OBD the same site that said every Jedi is light speed what credibility that site has!!!

@dangerousloki:

The Daizenshuu`s were created by Akira Toriyama and he wrote them as well.

Just because the guidebooks were created for the supplementary use for the manga and anime does not mean they are less valuable, credible or valid. Using other examples that range from Marvel and DC wouldn`t further support your argument, because some of those handbooks are even correct and by you using it as a basis for your argument means you are generalizing DBZ along with these other guidebooks which are completely different and the main difference is that the DBZ handbooks, guidebooks and etc were created by the actual creator as well as author Akira Toriyama instead of multiple writers and individuals who have their own vision for a specific character in which by that standard would have to share or pass along the character, stories, series and etc as time goes by, Marvel and DC have multiple writers who are not even the creators of the very same character that they are writing stories for.

There is nothing wrong with using a guidebook, or handbook and if Cell wasn`t contradicted then you cannot prove otherwise in regard to him being able to Solar System Bust. Cell wasn`t contradicted or later dismissed by anything further shown in Dragon Ball Z or by the creator himself. If the creator wrote it within the manga and then further sourced the factual idea within his own official guidebooks then that says something and it was also confirmed within the official Film Anime Comics Guide as well which was published by Shueisha and created by Akira Toriyama these are two official sources not Fanfiction, filler or hyperbole but further confirmed by actual sources and it was not debunked, contradictory, dismissed or denied.

Kid Buu was only targeting the earth and its called Ki Control as well as KI Size which is further mentioned by Akira Toriyama in Daizenshuu 7. Frieza destroyed Planet Vegeta which has 10x the gravity of earth ultimately meaning it would logically have 10x the density and mass. Frieza destroyed it with a Power Level of 530,000 and 1% of his overall power when in first form. In his Final Form he had a Power Level of 120,000,000 and in comparison to Cell he would only be a fly. Cell is also a power generator and was raised by a super computer in which he was given awareness in regards to different energy levels he would know how much power it takes to destroy the solar system whether it be through destroying all the planets at once with a concentrated and encompassing attack or through the destruction of the sun. I wouldn`t be surprised if Frieza had enough power to bust an actual star in his Final Form with a supernova attack which would be at 100% power and he is nothing compared to Cell as well, so Cell being able to destroy the solar system is pretty logical if you are to sit back and think about it. When Frieza destroyed Planet Vegeta he destroyed the entire thing in one attempt and he blew up the entire thing in first form not by aiming at the core per say.

Akira Toriyama:"When it comes to battle, the most important thing is KI SIZE, and its control. Of course, “ki” also includes such spiritual power as energy/vigor [genki] and bravery [yuuki], and being in one’s right mind [shouki] (note 11). There’s a limit to physical strength, no matter how much you toughen it up, and the only way to overcome that it is with “ki”. I think that it was through turning ki into formidable power that Goku drew closer to being the strongest warrior in the universe"

@kenbukaiten: According to kili math Goku at super saiyan not fully charged and not focusing all his energy into one blast has 3000 kili.

@dangerousloki:

There's no proof he wasn't exagerating. The fact is. Cell didn't come anywhere near destroying the Solar System. He made a statement that he could. The validity of it is doubtful considering that he neither acheived this, nor has any character in DBZ acheived this feat except apparently Broly, but even that is called into suspicion but I won't debate that as it is both uncannon and I've not seen the movie. Your logic, which requires horrendous power scaling a practice which we tend to try and avoid, is flawed as Frieza himself was only ever depicted as destroying a planet (Planet Namek) by destroying the planetary core. There is no evidence he could do it any other way. And taking that into consideration, the planetary core isn't the most stable thing and it requires far less force and power to destroy it (in fiction) then it would to destroy the entire planet casually (as Buu does later, launching a single attack and completly obliterating the planet.) and thus we can create a scale of power from Frieza to Buu rather easily based on their actual in panel feats.

Cell's intelligence since he is a super computer made to become the perfect being gives us enough knowledge to logically say he knows what he's talking about. As for the underline, Freezer casually destroyed Planet Vegeta which already had 10x

gravity.Frieza also states to be able to destroy E-arth with a ki blast with his father.

The only reason why he didn't destroy it was that he underestimated the amount needed.He also did it again while fighting Trunks.

The progression makes it look more logical that Cell should be able to do it.

1. Dragon Ball - Moon 2. Saiyan Arc - Planet 3. Freeza Arc - Casual multi-planet 4. Android Arc - In-between above and below 5. Cell Arc - " Solar System " 6. Boo Arc - Dimension Ripper 7. DBO - Supernova

Also,

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/2012/12/29/chozenshu-1-title-revealed-story-world-guide/

which is the new DB encyclopedia and surpasses the Daizenshuus)

. So far I got at least what appears to be a comment

that Cell was not bluffing: すでに 地球 どころか 太陽系 すべてか゛吹きと __?___ほどの気 ___?__まつているそ

!!!! “All of our solar system rather than earth already blow and so is the deal

with” there are parts missing so it makes less than no sense but the point of this is already clear.

I will say again. The Daizenshuu is not a seperate entity. It is not a fact book. It's is a collective resource. It is the equivalent of a wikipedia page. It uses only the manga to support itself and is only as reliable as the manga itself. When the manga is what is being questioned, the Daizenshuu cannot be used as a support as it depends on the manga for validity. It is not a "fact source" it is merely referential data collected to make it easier for Dragon Ball fans to keep track of the Dragon Ball contunuity as the series was originally printed by chapter in a magazine that had many other manga chapters contained with in and thus it was very difficult to be able to go back and refrence something from an earlier chapter without having to comb through dozens if not hundreds of magazines. It is a record of continuity. Not an independent fact refrence.

The upcoming new series of “Chōzenshū” guide books revealed in the February 2013 issue of V-Jump has so far been a mystery. Other than being a series of books that would “tell everything about Dragon Ball“, we had very little to go on.This statement clarifies that it indeed a "fact book".Also,your statement before about the Danzenshuu using the manga to support itself,that's false.Akira Toriyama clarifies ideas and concepts and goes into more detail.One example is when Goku was carrying the 40 tons on his limbs.Bukujutsu is a fighting style that is basically flying and makes carrying weights harder which is why Goku is struggling to fight with weights on.

The fact that they're encyclopedias is more than enough evidence.

Encyclopedia articles focus on factual information to cover the thing or concept for which the article name stands.

SS

@neongamewave:

@sondeatheater:

Comic Book debator

The comic book debator is used to having several writers write their character. Because this may cause inconsistencies between writer and writer, handbooks or specific guidelines are made for each character and how they should operate. For example, Captain America and Batman have been consistent characters since day 1. They perform and operate the nearly the same 20 years ago than today. Therefore anything that a writer says or anything said or done by the character in one arc my be disproven or contradictory in other arcs or several arts.

Comic book debators are used to these kind of inconsistencies and often argue against each other to determine a standard base for their favorite comic book characters.

A summary:

The comic book character is handled by several different writers yearly. The comic book debator is used to identifying what is in character and what isn't.

A comic book character usually if not always operates around a standard guideline such as handbook or databook entries. Because of that, the comic book debator is not used to their characters getting power amps that often.

Thanks to said guidelines, the comic book debator usually doesn't have to rely on math, physics or calculations as to how powerful their characters are as most times a narrator will clearly write out a explanation of a feat.

Manga/Anime debator

The manga/anime debator is used to one author that starts and finishes a series.

The manga/anime debator is also used to one artist or the creator of the series over seeing all artwork done by their staff. Manga/Anime creators usually elaborate on their own universe or world by writing handbook or databooks themselves (DBZ and Naruto). Because of this, the Manga/Anime debator usually takes what the creator says or does at face value because the creator is solely responsible for the entire Universe they have created and usually do not have anyone else responsible for their own work or stories.

Manga's usually if not always follow a typical shonen style manga where the main character has a eternal rival and as the story progresses both characters continue to get stronger than one another raising the bar and limits each story arc. This is where Manga and Comics defer.

A summary:

Manga/Animes are handled by one writer and artist or their staff that they over see. Feats, interviews and statements from the creators are taken at face value and are not considered hyperbole.

Manga stories are not on going and have a beginning and ending. Because of this, we see the characters progress and outdo not only each other but themselves on a regular basis as they train and getting power upgrades.

Where the Manga and Comic book debator defer

The comic book debator is use to their characters performing feats around a standard guideline as their stories are continuous and ongoing for over 1000s of issues. Captain America will always be around the peak of human evolution, and Batman will always be a genius with a level 10 intellect and the peak of man. Feats are often times more consistent as they have been consistent for 50+ years due to a number of appearances in several comics. Manga/Anime debators are use to their characters starting at level 1 and finish at level 1+ by the end of the series.

Comic book debators are used to several writers taking on their characters storylines and abide by guidelines to determine what is PIS/WIS/AIS/CIS. Manga/Anime characters do no have to worry about this as only one writer or sole creator usually handles their work.

So you see, when mixing the two together, both have different standard and guidelines to analyzing feats.

i pulled a info interesting of a translation of a caption in Spanish of dbz: bog:

vegeta:

Qué dices!!! Ni Kakaroto pudo con él!!?

What says! Neither Kakarot could with him !!!?

pero qué me dices!!!

but than me says!!!

king kai:

Falta poco para la destrucción del universo!

Lack little to the destruction of the universe!

I agree 100% and awesome post.

@dangerousloki:

“Why are you ignoring what the author wrote in favor of your worthless opinions about someone else’s fantasy world? Since when does a fantasy world obey real world physics and logic? Where in the manga or anime did those calculations appear? When did the Japanese company or Akira Toriyama, the author, ever invent those? None of the characters ever called them outliers or hyperboles, where did you get that idea from? Why do you ignore official sources from the Dragon Ball Z copyright holders and creators like guidebooks, yet insist that you know better than the people who invented it and have been in the business for decades?”

ABILITY TO TAKE AN EXPLODING PLANET.

In Dragon Ball Z, body durability depends on energy level. The lower the energy, the less damage you can take. Frieza, at his lowest energy level ever, still survived a planet exploding. But at his highest energy level, couldn’t take Goku’s punches and spat up blood. Goku even blew half of Frieza’s head off with an energy blast while planet Namek’s explosion did no more visible damage to him. Then Frieza got even stronger than ever before and came to earth, only to be cut up by Trunks’ sword. Frieza, at his strongest ever, can’t take Trunks’ sword, but at his weakest ever, survives an exploding planet. It’s important to note, the stronger the characters get, the larger their energy is, so an explosion that destroys a planet can actually have much more energy than a previous planetary explosion earlier on in the series. Same sized explosion, but far more power. That’s why weaker characters can survive them, but stronger characters can die from them later on. It’s because the blast of the same size has MUCH MORE energy inside of it. Are you calling all the writers and artists liars? Remember,in the real world nothing like this is possible. A fantasy is a fantasy. Simply accept it.

The fact is, we have no idea how Cell would destroy the solar system. Causing the sun to supernova is not even remotely impressive and doable by plenty of characters.

At the beginning of the Buu Saga, with SSJ Goku having a kili reading of 3000 pretty much cements the likelihood that they'd just cause the sun to supernova. Being able to destroy 10-15 planets doesn't translate into being able to wipe out an entire solar system with everything in it in a single shot as SSJ3. Unless we're pretending SSJ3 Goku isn't more powerful than Cell at this point?

@valfranx: I can understand why some people would rather push guidebooks aside as for validation for a feat.....I mean here is a translation of Haku's Demonic Mirroring Ice Crystals from Databook 1

Demonic Mirroring Ice Crystals (魔鏡氷晶, Makyou Hyoushou)

Kekkei Genkai, No rank, Offensive, Close to mid-range (0-10m)

User: Haku

The abominable and tremendous ability, passed down only within Haku's clan... The "Kekkei Genkai: Demonic Mirroring Ice Crystals" is a technique wrapped up in many mysteries. Only one thing is clear: it is said that no method in existence can defeat this technique. In an instant, multiple mirrors of ice are created around the enemy, reflecting nothing but Haku. For Haku, it's possible to move between the mirrors at the speed of light. It's impossible to see attacks send out from this literal light speed movement. For the opponent, nothing is left but to wait in amazement.

↓Every single ice mirror shows Haku's reflection!? Under these circumstances, one could say it's impossible to see all of Haku's attacks.

[picture of Sasuke being surrounded by mirrors reflecting Haku]

The technique carved in cursed blood

Inside the demonic mirrors is Haku's phantom world!!

[picture of Naruto's Shadow Clones being defeated by Haku]

←Naruto tries to attack the real body, but the moment after he starts his attack, Haku has already moved to another mirror.

Would you consider Part 1 Sasuke's reaction speed to be lightspeed?

Gallery

@xeon1cs: One thing is that Goku isn't fully charged or doing a Kamehameha that requires focus.The Kamehameha has shown in increase in Ki when Goku was fighting Raditz.Also,Piccolo was able to destroy the moon with a small ki blast.It was only the size of his hand.Compare Cell's hands to the actual blast size.

@cerberusprime3k: The first data book states that Haku can indeed travel at light speed between the mirrors, but that that's practically impossible because he can't see anything that way.

It's unknown whether or not Haku actually moved at his top speeds. But it is

true that he slowed down a lot by the time Sasuke was catching up with him. In

the beginning he was able to hit Sasuke multiple times in a flash. But when

Sasuke started to attack, it's quite obvious that Haku's no longer moving at the

previous speed. Otherwise, Sasuke must have suddenly got 30x faster to be able

to form seals and breath out his attack in one of those flashes.

OR this explanation

He does move at light speed when he's fresh and just cast the Jutsu. By the time Sasuke could actually see the brief glimpses of Haku he had already been

having his ass kicked for a while. So Haku wasn't going nearly as fast as his maximum; he was tired and sore from over-use of his Chakra. He even said that he

would run out soon, so when he got beaten he wasn't even near his maximum.

Agreed.

And no one has an answer to intangibility.

@walzo: it appears so lol

if you guys didnt notice i edited the match two weeks ago

now its ''No TP'' for a more fair match and to see who really is the strongest

Surfer goes intangible, shrinks down, phases inside Bills and starts unleashing multiple planetary busting energy blasts.

Nyehehe.

@neongamewave:

The Daizenshuu was not written by Akira Toriyama. This is fact. They were collected by an orginization known as Caramel Mama. They did not work with Toriyama in DBZ though they had worked with him in other projects. The editor for those books did work with Toriyama on DBZ but that's nothing significant. Toriyama himself states that it is a seperate staff independent from himself that works on these books.

"

This Daizenshuu, the 7th and final one, is a huge Dragon Ball encyclopedia. I think the staff who make these books always have a rough time of it, but this one looked even more hellish than usual. They really did a great job. I am ridiculously forgetful, so despite being the author there is lots of stuff even I do not know anymore. It was often quite a nuisance, and I think having this encyclopedia around when the series was still running would have really helped me out. Darn it all. Anyway, my thanks to the staff, and to all Dragon Ball fan.

"

— Akira Toriyama,

Daizenshuu 7

, 1996

A direct quote from the author stating his lack of involvement in the work. The Daizenshuu is an encyclopedia of information collected from the manga. Not a seperate source of it. Some additional information is found, due to interviews with Toriyama by the staff. But that is it. They are an outside source that uses the Manga and interviews as their sole resource. The fact that their resource is the very thing being questioned thus means that the resource that uses that source as it's resource cannot support it. There is a reason this is a "debate forum"

Your argument that "Fantasy doesn't have to obey real world logic" is a ridiculous statement. By that logic, all debate might as well end now because you can't prove that planets in DBZ are equal to Marvel's planets and thus Frieza being able to destroy them is insignificant beacuse you can't prove the planets durability. By your own logic, I could argue that even though Cell can destroy a DBZ "solar system" that he couldn't destroy a solar system in Marvel. Because DBZ doesn't have to obey real world physics or logic, there's no way to quantify exactly how much power destroying a solar system in DBZ takes.. Unless we use the physics of a solar system. But that would require using real world logic. Which you don't want to do....

I've already debated everything else but it actually isn't relevant to anything her and doesn't counter the logical deduction already presented which is the current issue of discussion in the matter.

@sondeatheater said:

@kenbukaiten: According to kili math Goku at super saiyan not fully charged and not focusing all his energy into one blast has 3000 kili.

@dangerousloki:

There's no proof he wasn't exagerating. The fact is. Cell didn't come anywhere near destroying the Solar System. He made a statement that he could. The validity of it is doubtful considering that he neither acheived this, nor has any character in DBZ acheived this feat except apparently Broly, but even that is called into suspicion but I won't debate that as it is both uncannon and I've not seen the movie. Your logic, which requires horrendous power scaling a practice which we tend to try and avoid, is flawed as Frieza himself was only ever depicted as destroying a planet (Planet Namek) by destroying the planetary core. There is no evidence he could do it any other way. And taking that into consideration, the planetary core isn't the most stable thing and it requires far less force and power to destroy it (in fiction) then it would to destroy the entire planet casually (as Buu does later, launching a single attack and completly obliterating the planet.) and thus we can create a scale of power from Frieza to Buu rather easily based on their actual in panel feats.

Cell's intelligence since he is a super computer made to become the perfect being gives us enough knowledge to logically say he knows what he's talking about. As for the underline, Freezer casually destroyed Planet Vegeta which already had 10x

gravity.Frieza also states to be able to destroy E-arth with a ki blast with his father.

The only reason why he didn't destroy it was that he underestimated the amount needed.He also did it again while fighting Trunks.

The progression makes it look more logical that Cell should be able to do it.

1. Dragon Ball - Moon 2. Saiyan Arc - Planet 3. Freeza Arc - Casual multi-planet 4. Android Arc - In-between above and below 5. Cell Arc - " Solar System " 6. Boo Arc - Dimension Ripper 7. DBO - Supernova

Also,

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/2012/12/29/chozenshu-1-title-revealed-story-world-guide/

which is the new DB encyclopedia and surpasses the Daizenshuus)

. So far I got at least what appears to be a comment

that Cell was not bluffing: すでに 地球 どころか 太陽系 すべてか゛吹きと __?___ほどの気 ___?__まつているそ

!!!! “All of our solar system rather than earth already blow and so is the deal

with” there are parts missing so it makes less than no sense but the point of this is already clear.

I will say again. The Daizenshuu is not a seperate entity. It is not a fact book. It's is a collective resource. It is the equivalent of a wikipedia page. It uses only the manga to support itself and is only as reliable as the manga itself. When the manga is what is being questioned, the Daizenshuu cannot be used as a support as it depends on the manga for validity. It is not a "fact source" it is merely referential data collected to make it easier for Dragon Ball fans to keep track of the Dragon Ball contunuity as the series was originally printed by chapter in a magazine that had many other manga chapters contained with in and thus it was very difficult to be able to go back and refrence something from an earlier chapter without having to comb through dozens if not hundreds of magazines. It is a record of continuity. Not an independent fact refrence.

The upcoming new series of “Chōzenshū” guide books revealed in the February 2013 issue of V-Jump has so far been a mystery. Other than being a series of books that would “tell everything about Dragon Ball“, we had very little to go on.This statement clarifies that it indeed a "fact book".Also,your statement before about the Danzenshuu using the manga to support itself,that's false.Akira Toriyama clarifies ideas and concepts and goes into more detail.One example is when Goku was carrying the 40 tons on his limbs.Bukujutsu is a fighting style that is basically flying and makes carrying weights harder which is why Goku is struggling to fight with weights on.

The fact that they're encyclopedias is more than enough evidence.

Encyclopedia articles focus on factual information to cover the thing or concept for which the article name stands.

As already stated above. The Daizenshuu is not written by Akira Toriyama. It is written by an outside source that uses Akira's work as a refrence. That refrence is what is being questioned. Show me Akira Toriyama, in his own words, saying Cell can destroy a solar system. You can't. Because it doesn't exist. The Kazenshuu are also collected from the Daizenshuu with slightly expanded information. Again. I've already debated the Frieza thing. As stated. Frieza destroyed Namek's core. We do not know what he did to planet Vegeta but he could have easily done the same thing and destroyed it's core. Thus it's size and gravity does not matter as it would require only slightly more power then it would to destroy nameks core. There is no source which states how Planet Vegeta was destroyed. Only Planet Namek. It is the only source we have.

@cerberusprime3k:

I see no problem with that, because this and due to the use of a technique, by what I saw in naruto in databook imply that haku is traveling between dimensions of the mirrors, which would lightspeed, already out of espalhos not. like guys who wear the marvel in hyperspace, they are lightspeed inside, outside are sonic. the advantage of this technique is that unpredictable and see where the opponent will attack. as zabuza mist that conceals the presence and location that will attack. sasuke not would say that has lightspeed reactions by this, more by other feats, as dodge the lightning, would give a good idea of how the characters are rapids, other are damage they are causing characters that fight at high speeds, a ball of baseball in lightspeed could cause critical damage as well, destroying an , mountain, other indications are the characters fight and stay invisible to the point many people can not see characters struggling in a few milliseconds.

what I find interesting and that one of the reasons for such works, one piece, saint seiya, dragon ball ... are so strong and because of speed combat, even if they had the ability to be dislocate in lightspeed by great distances.

wow are you a witch or a magician?

http://powerlisting.wikia.com/wiki/Intangibility

Limitations

• May need to hold their breath while inside solid objects.
• Some materials/effects may be un-passable.
• May be affected by energy.
• Users may activate this power accidentally.
• Some users may be limited in terms of effect (some may only be able to allow physical attacks to phase through their bodies, for example).
• Intangibility Cancellation makes this power useless.

http://powerlisting.wikia.com/wiki/Elemental_Intangibility

Limitations

• Obstructions that would stop the imitated element affect the user.
• Users of Intangibility Cancellation will make them hit the persons real body.

http://powerlisting.wikia.com/wiki/Intangibility_Cancellation

Limitations

• Obstructions that would stop the imitated element affect the user.
• Users of Intangibility Cancellation will make them hit the persons real body.

Hydrokinetic Intangibility

http://powerlisting.wikia.com/wiki/Hydrokinetic_Intangibility

LimitationsEdit

• May require focus as a stray thought could turn the object solid during transition
• Unlike True Intangibility, users may not pass through an object if there isn't a big enough opening for their molecules.

@dangerousloki

Frieza did not destroy Vegeta's core. He completely obliterated the planet in a matter of seconds. It was visibly distinct from when he destroyed Namek's core. And in the manga it wasn't even on panel.

The basis for Cell's casual solar system busting power is not based on his claim alone, but by quantifiable feats. For example, beating down Ascended Saiyan Vegeta with a Cell Junior; that is a feat that puts him far above Frieza.

Frieza is not a "low-end planet buster," he completely obliterated Planet Vegeta - which was much larger than Earth - at 1% of his power; effortlessly, almost instantaneously. He is an incredibly high-tier planet-buster, and at his max power probably close to star busting (via core explosion)