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#201 Posted by NeonGameWave (7688 posts) - - Show Bio

@comicstooge:

Kanzenshuu - Birus nonchalantly bids Kaiō farewell, and heads off with Uis for Earth. Goku is in bad shape, but still alive, and Kaiō curses him for his stupidity. He realizes he has to contact Vegeta right away and inform him of the situation.

Vegeta is still off on his own training when Kaiō telepathically contacts him. After listening to what Kaiō has to say, Vegeta says he has heard of the God of Destruction, but he is not too worried that he is on his way to Earth. Kaiō warns that the Earth will be wiped out if they do not keep their hands off Birus, but Vegeta still does not care, at least not until Kaiō tells him that Birus took Super Saiyan 3 Goku down in just two blows. Vegeta rushes out and interrupts the party to warn everyone, but Birus is already there. Birus casually greets him, asking Vegeta if he remembers him. Vegeta recalls that when he was still little, his father King Vegeta treated Birus to a feast, but that Birus still used the King as a stepping stone at the time. Seeing Birus face-to-face, Vegeta can tell that Kaiō was not exaggerating; Birus is far too dangerous.

Angered, Birus punches Goku hard in the gut, then sends him flying through West City with a ferocious kick. Goku stops himself mid-air, but before he can do anything Birus is already there and puts Goku in a headlock. Birus quickly whirls around him, kicks Goku off into a nearby forest, and gives chase. Not able to see them, Kame-Sen’nin and the others run over to a Capsule ship and fly off after the two. Goku and Birus continue exchanging blows in the forest, when Birus sends Goku flying with another kick to the face. Birus flies off after him and the two end up in a desert area with numerous rock formations surrounding them. Goku and Birus charge at each other and their punches collide, sending out an Earth-shattering shockwave. They pull away from each other and a trickle of blood falls from a cut on Goku’s cheek.

Birus asks if Goku is still feeling dissatisfied with godhood, and Goku says he still is. As the two continue to battle, Birus tells Goku this sort of worthless pride can be a weakness, and it is rare for a Saiyan to get so hung up on such things. Their battle has led them into a subterranean cavern, and Goku says that Vegeta has pride even greater than his own. Birus points out that even Vegeta threw away that pride earlier, in order to protect everyone. Goku knows, and respects Vegeta for doing so. In fact, seeing Vegeta throw away his princely pride was what made Goku decide to throw away his own pride and become a god. Meanwhile, Kame-Sen’nin wonders what the two of them are talking about. Rather than fighting, Piccolo says it almost seems as if Goku is receiving training.

Birus admits that he too is dissatisfied, because he is still not fighting with anywhere close to his full power. Goku is amazed, since he himself has only been fighting at close to 80% of his full power. Hearing this really annoys Birus, and he asks if Goku can keep up with his speed. Birus charges toward Goku and begins pummeling him, asking if Goku is fighting all-out yet.

Bills was also able to outpace Goku`s Instant Transmission which is faster than Light Speed also this is Bills holding back 30% of his overall power, Silver Surfer can travel at FTL speeds but I don`t think he can fight at those speeds.

#202 Edited by ComicStooge (11991 posts) - - Show Bio

@comicstooge:

Kanzenshuu - Birus nonchalantly bids Kaiō farewell, and heads off with Uis for Earth. Goku is in bad shape, but still alive, and Kaiō curses him for his stupidity. He realizes he has to contact Vegeta right away and inform him of the situation.

Vegeta is still off on his own training when Kaiō telepathically contacts him. After listening to what Kaiō has to say, Vegeta says he has heard of the God of Destruction, but he is not too worried that he is on his way to Earth. Kaiō warns that the Earth will be wiped out if they do not keep their hands off Birus, but Vegeta still does not care, at least not until Kaiō tells him that Birus took Super Saiyan 3 Goku down in just two blows. Vegeta rushes out and interrupts the party to warn everyone, but Birus is already there. Birus casually greets him, asking Vegeta if he remembers him. Vegeta recalls that when he was still little, his father King Vegeta treated Birus to a feast, but that Birus still used the King as a stepping stone at the time. Seeing Birus face-to-face, Vegeta can tell that Kaiō was not exaggerating; Birus is far too dangerous.

Angered, Birus punches Goku hard in the gut, then sends him flying through West City with a ferocious kick. Goku stops himself mid-air, but before he can do anything Birus is already there and puts Goku in a headlock. Birus quickly whirls around him, kicks Goku off into a nearby forest, and gives chase. Not able to see them, Kame-Sen’nin and the others run over to a Capsule ship and fly off after the two. Goku and Birus continue exchanging blows in the forest, when Birus sends Goku flying with another kick to the face. Birus flies off after him and the two end up in a desert area with numerous rock formations surrounding them. Goku and Birus charge at each other and their punches collide, sending out an Earth-shattering shockwave. They pull away from each other and a trickle of blood falls from a cut on Goku’s cheek.

Birus asks if Goku is still feeling dissatisfied with godhood, and Goku says he still is. As the two continue to battle, Birus tells Goku this sort of worthless pride can be a weakness, and it is rare for a Saiyan to get so hung up on such things. Their battle has led them into a subterranean cavern, and Goku says that Vegeta has pride even greater than his own. Birus points out that even Vegeta threw away that pride earlier, in order to protect everyone. Goku knows, and respects Vegeta for doing so. In fact, seeing Vegeta throw away his princely pride was what made Goku decide to throw away his own pride and become a god. Meanwhile, Kame-Sen’nin wonders what the two of them are talking about. Rather than fighting, Piccolo says it almost seems as if Goku is receiving training.

Birus admits that he too is dissatisfied, because he is still not fighting with anywhere close to his full power. Goku is amazed, since he himself has only been fighting at close to 80% of his full power. Hearing this really annoys Birus, and he asks if Goku can keep up with his speed. Birus charges toward Goku and begins pummeling him, asking if Goku is fighting all-out yet.

Bills was also able to outpace Goku`s Instant Transmission which is faster than Light Speed also this is Bills holding back 30% of his overall power, Silver Surfer can travel at FTL speeds but I don`t think he can fight at those speeds.

Simply catching someone when they teleport is no indication of MFTL combat speeds. If that was the case, Cyclops would have MFTL combat speeds, because he's hit Nightcrawler after he's teleported.

#203 Edited by NeonGameWave (7688 posts) - - Show Bio

@walzo: Can you show me a scan of him doing that? Or actively using his powers while in that? His Cosmic Awareness would help but it doesn`t mean it would be an automatic victory and Bills is also bloodlusted with no morals he overpowered a SSJG Goku, resisted attacks that are probably supernova level and he outpaced Instant Transmission also he held back 30% of his overall power he was using only 70%, he basically battled at MFTL combat speeds and still beat Goku but he did not even use his full power.

I didn`t say you said it, I`m only giving clarification for the facts.

#204 Posted by debeze (243 posts) - - Show Bio
#205 Posted by ComicStooge (11991 posts) - - Show Bio

@walzo: Can you show me a scan of him doing that? Or actively using his powers while in that? His Cosmic Awareness would help but it doesn`t mean it would be an automatic victory and Bills is also bloodlusted with no morals he overpowered a SSJG Goku, resisted attacks that are probably supernova level and he outpaced Instant Transmission also he held back 30% of his overall power he was using only 70%, he basically battled at MFTL combat speeds and still beat Goku but he did not even use his full power.

I didn`t say you said it, I`m only giving clarification for the facts.

Surfer can easily tank planet busting attacks.

#206 Edited by NeonGameWave (7688 posts) - - Show Bio

@comicstooge: Goku`s Instant Transmission is instantaneous and its faster than light also Bills crossed Other World, Hell and etc as he appeared at Earth in mere seconds while King Kai was telepathically communicating with Vegeta, valfranx explains it very well here.

http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles-7/bills-vs-silver-surfer-1450635/?page=3

See comment 131.

#207 Posted by debeze (243 posts) - - Show Bio

@comicstooge: dbz characters have tanked planet buster attacks before

#208 Edited by valfranx (61 posts) - - Show Bio

@neongamewave said:

@walzo: Its officially confirmed by the author within the manga as well as the handbooks and it is very logical for Cell and the reason why I say that is because Akira already confirmed why ki control and PL were important in regards to the characters. Bills` Master Whis who trained him and is his superior said Bills can destroy a solar system in an instant why would he lie? He would know how powerful Bills would be and what he is capable of.

When does Silver Surfer use TP within battle? He can`t stay intangible forever, how can he counter Bills` kiai which is an invisible force or attack? Would be able to counter Bills who can fight at MFTL speeds?

Silver Surfer isn`t stomping Bills.

Any proof Bills has MFTL combat speeds?

posted in page 3.

#209 Posted by NeonGameWave (7688 posts) - - Show Bio

@neongamewave said:

@walzo: Can you show me a scan of him doing that? Or actively using his powers while in that? His Cosmic Awareness would help but it doesn`t mean it would be an automatic victory and Bills is also bloodlusted with no morals he overpowered a SSJG Goku, resisted attacks that are probably supernova level and he outpaced Instant Transmission also he held back 30% of his overall power he was using only 70%, he basically battled at MFTL combat speeds and still beat Goku but he did not even use his full power.

I didn`t say you said it, I`m only giving clarification for the facts.

Surfer can easily tank planet busting attacks.

I never denied that he can but Bills can produce attacks that are far above planetary attacks also Bills has tanked attacks that are far above planetary level such as Vegeta`s ki blast and Goku`s Kamehameha which contains Ultimate Gohan, Goten, Trunks, Pan, Vegeta and Pan`s power.

Kazenshuu - Goku fires a gigantic Kamehameha at Birus, but he takes the blast head on and then prepares a huge attack of his own, an enormous energy ball.

#210 Edited by Walzo (4355 posts) - - Show Bio

@neongamewave:

I don't have a scan at the moment, however I don't see why he wouldn't be able to.

#211 Edited by NeonGameWave (7688 posts) - - Show Bio

@walzo: Then you haven`t proven otherwise, your solely basing it off of your opinion but if he can then he will beat Bills.

#212 Edited by Walzo (4355 posts) - - Show Bio

@neongamewave:

I couldn't find a scan, however, I found the next best thing:

Morpheus_
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#3 Posted by Morpheus_ (29871 posts) - 2 years, 6 months ago - Show Bio

The theory is unnecessary. He has already blasted the Vision while at an intangible state.

Also, this is not a battle, and belongs in the Silver Surfer forum.

I'd consider a post from Morpheus (Considered one of the best debaters on the site, also a mod) a solid source.

Also, this is the thread:

http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles-7/silver-surfer-vs-intangibles-571089/

#213 Posted by ComicStooge (11991 posts) - - Show Bio

@comicstooge: Goku`s Instant Transmission is instantaneous and its faster than light also Bills crossed Other World, Hell and etc as he appeared at Earth in mere seconds while King Kai was telepathically communicating with Vegeta, valfranx explains it very well here.

http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles-7/bills-vs-silver-surfer-1450635/?page=3

See comment 131.

Surfer is capable of traveling light years in a matter of seconds:

He can easily avoid blasts of solar energy from Galactus:

He's capable of teleportation:

And is able to keep up with people who can teleport:

#214 Posted by NeonGameWave (7688 posts) - - Show Bio

@walzo: Thanks for the awesome link, it proves why Silver Surfer would be able to hurt Bills even while going intangible but it doesn`t exactly prove why he would be able to retain that state permanently during battle, however there is a good chance that he could and by that possibility if proven true he definitely defeats Bills due to the useful ability. A good example could be Danny Phantom who goes intangible but doesn`t stay intangible forever within that state or form.

#215 Edited by NeonGameWave (7688 posts) - - Show Bio

@comicstooge: Most of what you shown me is travel speed however its still impressive but Bills can travel at MFTL speeds and fight at those speeds as well.

#216 Posted by Walzo (4355 posts) - - Show Bio

@neongamewave:

The difference between Danny Phantom and Silver Surfer, however, is that SS is powered by the Power Cosmic, which is basically the source of all of his powers.

Danny would wear out understandably, but Surfer could keep on chugging.

#217 Posted by NeonGameWave (7688 posts) - - Show Bio

@walzo:

That is true but both can go intangible.

That is a good point however it doesn`t mean Silver Surfer would be able to keep himself in that state forever he would need to perform certain abilities and Bills is MFTL in combat speed. But Silver Surfer should win then if he utilizes that ability.

#218 Posted by ComicStooge (11991 posts) - - Show Bio

@comicstooge: Most of what you shown me is travel speed however its still impressive but Bills can travel at MFTL speeds and fight at those speeds as well.

They can both travel MFTL. Surfer has also outraced a massive explosion, while rescuing two people, all within a second:

#219 Posted by NeonGameWave (7688 posts) - - Show Bio

@comicstooge: There`s a difference between Travel Speed and Combat Speed. Bills actually battles at those speeds its like saying Superman can fight at FTL speeds because he travels at FTL during flight and Superman accelerates when in doing those things as well similar to how the Silver Surfer manipulates time to achieve things beyond normal speed level.

#220 Edited by ComicStooge (11991 posts) - - Show Bio

@comicstooge: There`s a difference between Travel Speed and Combat Speed. Bills actually battles at those speeds its like saying Superman can fight at FTL speeds because he travels at FTL during flight and Superman accelerates when in doing those things as well similar to how the Silver Surfer manipulates time to achieve things beyond normal speed level.

I know the difference, I'm just saying that Surfer flew down, grabbed those people and flew out in less then a second, showing he has at LEAST microsecond reaction speed.

#221 Edited by NeonGameWave (7688 posts) - - Show Bio

@comicstooge: That`s impressive but Bills actually overpowered a SSJG Goku who was using Instant Transmission which is instantaneous as well as way above light speed and he did this while holding back 30% of his true power.

#222 Posted by ComicStooge (11991 posts) - - Show Bio

@comicstooge: That`s impressive but Bills actually overpowered a SSJG Goku who was using Instant Transmission which is instantaneous as well as way above light speed and he did this while holding back 30% of his true power.

Surfer has also tagged teleporters.

And in regards to the holding back by 30%, that could just mean his destructive ability.

This is completely off topic, but do you know if or when they'll release an English dubbed version of BotG?

#223 Edited by NeonGameWave (7688 posts) - - Show Bio

@comicstooge:

That doesn`t mean he would be able to compete with Bills.

No its overall considering the fact that Whis further confirmed it when he was talking about his overall performance and the amount of effort he put in regards to his fight with Goku.

Good question. I personally believe Funimation will dub the actual movie by the end of the year. But it also depends on support and feedback for the film, this video can give you a good idea as to what could happen in regards to the Dub. However, some even say it could possibly take 2 years for the actual Dub but we know for sure that a Sub would already be on its way by now and its less costly for Funimation as well but I believe Funimation will Dub the movie for sure.

https://twitter.com/dbresource

#224 Edited by AngryHulks (3001 posts) - - Show Bio

@comicstooge: There`s a difference between Travel Speed and Combat Speed. Bills actually battles at those speeds its like saying Superman can fight at FTL speeds because he travels at FTL during flight and Superman accelerates when in doing those things as well similar to how the Silver Surfer manipulates time to achieve things beyond normal speed level.

Silver Surfer can't manipulate time (though he can time-travel), but when he did use his speed, it's impressive.

The second scan hinted that he can sustain his perception speed for indefinite period, it's not only reflex that counts.

#225 Posted by NeonGameWave (7688 posts) - - Show Bio

@angryhulks: I agree, its very impressive but I believe Silver Surfer utilizes a form of time bending with the power cosmic, he alters the things around him in regards to perception and he travels through time itself.

#226 Edited by THC (367 posts) - - Show Bio

@comicstooge said:

@neongamewave said:

@comicstooge: There`s a difference between Travel Speed and Combat Speed. Bills actually battles at those speeds its like saying Superman can fight at FTL speeds because he travels at FTL during flight and Superman accelerates when in doing those things as well similar to how the Silver Surfer manipulates time to achieve things beyond normal speed level.

I know the difference, I'm just saying that Surfer flew down, grabbed those people and flew out in less then a second, showing he has at LEAST microsecond reaction speed.

Then by feats Surfer's combat speed is comparable to kid Krillin who fought an entire fight with Muten Roshi in 3 seconds showing microsecond reaction speed, subsequently speedblitz'd by Goku

Goku as a kid was clearly beyond hypersonic, and as a teenager began approaching the 1% of light speed mark as he and his opponents such as Tien and Piccolo began regularly completely vanishing from sight during combat. 18:50:

#227 Posted by ComicStooge (11991 posts) - - Show Bio

@comicstooge:

That doesn`t mean he would be able to compete with Bills.

No its overall considering the fact that Whis further confirmed it when he was talking about his overall performance and the amount of effort he put in regards to his fight with Goku.

Good question. I personally believe Funimation will dub the actual movie by the end of the year. But it also depends on support and feedback for the film, this video can give you a good idea as to what could happen in regards to the Dub. However, some even say it could possibly take 2 years for the actual Dub but we know for sure that a Sub would already be on its way by now and its less costly for Funimation as well but I believe Funimation will Dub the movie for sure.

https://twitter.com/dbresource

Cool beans. The movie looks awesome.

#228 Edited by AngryHulks (3001 posts) - - Show Bio

@thc said:

@comicstooge said:

@neongamewave said:

@comicstooge: There`s a difference between Travel Speed and Combat Speed. Bills actually battles at those speeds its like saying Superman can fight at FTL speeds because he travels at FTL during flight and Superman accelerates when in doing those things as well similar to how the Silver Surfer manipulates time to achieve things beyond normal speed level.

I know the difference, I'm just saying that Surfer flew down, grabbed those people and flew out in less then a second, showing he has at LEAST microsecond reaction speed.

Then by feats Surfer's combat speed is comparable to kid Krillin who fought an entire fight with Muten Roshi in 3 seconds showing microsecond reaction speed, subsequently speedblitz'd by Goku

Goku as a kid was clearly beyond hypersonic, and as a teenager began approaching the 1% of light speed mark as he and his opponents such as Tien and Piccolo began regularly completely vanishing from sight during combat. 18:50:

Surfer claimed that he is faster than light, he have confused even abstract being such as Deathurge and semi-abstract like Stranger can't tag him. Surfer's reaction time should be at least on nanosecond if not faster as he is capable of searching entire planet in few seconds. He have also detected opponent slipping away from him at 3 times faster than light and manage to catch up to him in no time.

#229 Posted by xeon1cs (1479 posts) - - Show Bio

Don't forget Surfer has also blitz'd Nova twice, and he had no idea what hit him, he thought it was just energy Galactus shot at him. Even with the Worldmind he couldn't avoid him.

#230 Edited by ComicStooge (11991 posts) - - Show Bio

@xeon1cs said:

Don't forget Surfer has also blitz'd Nova twice, and he had no idea what hit him, he thought it was just energy Galactus shot at him. Even with the Worldmind he couldn't avoid him.

He's also blitzed Beta Ray Bill.

#231 Posted by isaac_clarke (5448 posts) - - Show Bio

For the simple fact that he would be able to bust galaxies without using a majority or great fraction of his overall power. I know you are probably going o dismiss it and say well you have no proof, Power Levels don`t work even though Akira Toriyama himself already confirmed that Cell is a solar system buster and Bills would definitely fit the Bill for Galaxy Buster due to the significant gap of power and how ki is the distinguishable factor for the attributive and fundamental as well as methodical utilization of ki even Akira confirmed why ki would be so important not simply Power Levels but Ki and Ki Control itself. Bills is a maintainer for the entire universe and has been around for a very long time, he destroys stars, planets and other forms of life across the entire universe, his master Whis even said he would wipe out the entire Solar System in no time at all just through a suit of rage and it wouldn`t require him to use his absolute max power and before you question me, yes I do know what a Skyfather is and the requirements to be placed on that level. Some of the few examples would be Odin, Dormammu and Zeus although these beings probably as well as easily supersede Bills, I`m not a fanboy either I wouldn`t dare put Bills on Abstract Level or on the level of Galactus, I know DBZ fanboys who had made a critical mistake in that regard but even if he is not to be on skyfather level he would at least be herald level.

I would dismiss it because it doesn't make any sense and is completely unfounded. You're taking an offhand comment by Cell that is completely unrelated to something else and insisting its applicable. "X is this powerful, so Y being more powerful can do Z!" Its at its core is a bad argument

And if the perquisite to being a Skyfather simply being a galaxy buster, a good portion of them wouldn't likely even fit the bill. Its the whole ability to more or less spawn their own pantheons, control things such as time or where the stars in the night sky are or creating entire worlds, dimensions, souls and even people to worship them - you know exhibiting a bit more of a reality warping theme over blowing things up - that makes them Gods of Gods.

Around a long time? A maintainer? At best he's at herald level, but even then he is an extremely limited herald.

And your point what exactly? It doesn`t change the facts that were already stated, its transmutation regardless of how it is used the fact is it achieves the same effects.
And how does your argument exactly prove that it is not transmutation? What else could it be? Its matter manipulation nonetheless, it changed the target`s body structure and notice how the many other characters did not retain their power, also I already told you why in regards to how ki is a factor. So by your argument its not transmutation simply because it did not kill them or have them lacking of specific organs or functions? Your argument did not prove anything, your simply assuming things and theorizing. So why wouldn`t it be transmutation? Silver Surfer usually utilizes matter manipulation to change and alter energies or substances as it would fit into the definition of what matter manipulation is supposed to be although similar, transmutation actually changes one`s or something`s form completely into something completely different without certain materials and forms of application. Silver Surfer can achieve transmutation but usually he would have used this form through the manipulation of matter or energies as he also relies on matter manipulation. Now when does Silver Surfer usually transmute someone of Bills` category who uses a form of transmutation himself?
Transmutation
  1. The action of changing or the state of being changed into another form: "the transmutation of the economy".
  2. The changing of one element into another by radioactive decay, nuclear bombardment, or similar processes.
Matter Manipulation

Characters capable of consciously manipulating inorganic, and sometimes organic, matter at the molecular, sub-molecular, atomic, or sub-atomic scale. Characters with wide-spectrum matter manipulation would be capable of such feats as disintegration and reformation thus changing any object into anything they wish, though other characters might be capable of only targeted applications, like turning objects into gold and gold only.

The problem is the transformation was merely superficial, as in it doesn't change the contents of the object. Otherwise these characters hit by it would have immediately been killed - not beating Buu senseless or appearing inside his body in their normal state. The actual matter, what makes up the object, remains the same. It's no different then the transformations the characters in Naruto do - its a trick.

Because I'm pointing out if it was real transmutation the characters would have ceased to exist in their physical forms, they would have been dead. Not trapped inside Buu or beating him senseless. Many other characters? Fat Buu was using it as a last resort to beat Evil Buu because he was running out of power, outside him the majority of the individuals getting hit from the candy beam are either a lot more inept than Vegito or didn't have the ability to do not have any ability to fly or resist in any fashion. Quite literally a gust of wind as pushed back this "transmutation".

But lets entertain this argument of yours where the Candy Beam = Silver Surfer's ability to control the atomic structure of an object. More or less, its an argument akin to how getting a bucket of paint dropped on me didn't kill me, so I must be able to tank an atomic bomb being dropped on me. Seems legit.

If you can prove to me Bills will be completely immune to the Surfer manipulating his atomic structure post it. If all you have is the synopsis of the candy beam not defeating him, best to end this argument here because it is completely pointless to even continue. At that point we're comparing parlor tricks to someone that can quite literally use his power to actively fight someone actually warping his being (universal reality warper).

Like what? Bills clearly used a form of transmutation by shaping it or transmuting it into sand, it was a egg by the way and he utilized his ki to perform this which says something as in comparison to Silver Surfer and his cosmic ability.

Clearly? Are you sure about that being 'clearly'? Then clearly Michael must have turned Anna into sand too.

We could argue that was a million different things, mostly from my perspective he simply super heated it or simply is so physically strong shattered its form with a tap, but given the whole sparkles of purple over it and another flash of purple simply to have it disperse - its tough to accurately say what he did. Trying to compare that to Kid Buu's candy-beam is a bit of a stretch, about as wide as to compare it to the Silver Surfer directly controlling the atomic structure of an object. To me I see him burning it, more power to disagree - but building an argument around it isn't going to fly.

Wow. You still resort to the petty argument about Goku and the heart virus we had no clue about? Two totally different situations, and Vegito being a half wit or adjusting to the situation is a lame excuse the fact is that he was still able to overpower Buu even when changed into candy or a different form, weaker characters and characters who aren`t exactly senseless were not able to do that.

There is nothing petty about it. You're trying to argue KI control suddenly can protect someone from having their atomic structure from being torn apart, yet it can't handle a heart virus that already killed one iteration of Goku without fail. Its kinda ridiculous to be hearing how on the cellular level he can't even handle a virus, god knows why you're bothering to argue how these characters can stand up to anyone more or less cease to physically exist with by pulling apart their atoms with their minds. Its kind of the glaring flaw in this argument.

The point is that the synopsis is accurate and what was shown within the synopsis itself is actually accurate in occurrence to what was released in regards to the movie, there are many leaked videos that display exactly what the synopsis entails once the movie is leaked in its entirety you will learn to understand better. Repeating? Nothing is repeated just as shown in the Saiyan Saga your using old events to downgrade or overshadow current events that happen pretty differently and based on what I have seen and found out it is very different although it may still retain a form of formula in regards to what DBZ is and was always meant to be.

Pretty differently? It at its core is the same plot we as the audience have been watching since Saiyan Saga. The only bit of variation to the theme I can think of was when you have Baddrock being blasted through time and self-fulfilling the Super Saiyan prophecy. Outside that you can run the entire plot of the DBU as:

  • Villain shows up
  • Rest of the cast is defeated by said Villain
  • Lone Saiyan pulls out a win on his own, either through plot power up or spirit bomb. Mostly plot power up.

But the main thing is the threat always being the same. It's always the Earth at risk, the villain is more or less not substantially becoming a galactic level force - he's going to punching, kicking and blasting - normally never exceeding the destruction of planets that don't matter to the plot and firing a blast that ultimately threatens to destroy the Earth at the very end. That's more or less the theme in a nutshell - and it really kills the threat posed by villains in the series when they ultimately never exceed what the previous guy was doing, just doing it slightly better against more potent protagonists.

Kazenshuu - Uis warns everyone to be careful what they say; if anything rubs Birus the wrong way, he will destroy the entire solar system in no time at all.

That doesn't prove anything. That's the problem - one piece of dialogue becomes the rallying cry behind your entire argument, Cell said the same thing and didn't do anything close.

Has anyone in DBZ actually absorbed ki? Not manipulation, absorption, Goku in SSJG form was able to absorb Bills` energy but he was left exhausted and it weakened him also like I said that wasn`t Bills going all out with his true power.

The Androids 19 and 20? That was kinda there thing - if we include GT - Super 17 was doing it too. But that has nothing to do with the argument, my reference was the fact the entire cast that actively fights controls KI and they don't have anywhere close to the record of absorbing / controlling various energies the Surfer has. The difference is the Surfer absorbing energy empowers him, it doesn't weaken him and he can do it with incredible amount of energy to boot.

What?? Bills clearly wasn`t fighting at those speeds and did not need to, what happened was that the battle continued from a confrontation he had with Buu so by your logic Superman wouldn`t have nanosecond reaction time because he is fighting Doomsday at regular levels? Bills was outpacing Goku`s Instant Transmission and Bills as well as his master Whis crossed Other World, Heaven, Hell in seconds during the time King Kai was telepathically communicating with Vegeta that is definitely MFTL in travel speed also him being able to outpace Goku even when he was using IT proves why he would be MFTL in combat speed. Bills utilized his speed a lot more when he was battling Goku through space and the earth this is something you clearly overlooked.

Then you should post something where he is fighting at those speeds instead of keep telling me he does - I'd rather hear evidence then claims of this amazing speed. By my logic someone can post a scan of Superman fighting at high speeds that require a high-reactionary operating process. But Nano-second isn't accurate, since I haven't seen post 52 or pre-52 Superman doing that. And there are scans where he utilizes speed against Doomsday to boot, not the best example.

What the hell does any of what you mention here (telepathy, crossing Other World, Heaven, Hell) prove MFTL travel speeds? That means about as much as someone going from one end of Mephisto's realm to the other, in other words, not a lot. Hitting someone after they've teleported? As someone mentioned here, congrats he's joined Cyclops in the world of those who have easily attacked someone after they've teleported.

Kazenshuu - Birus nonchalantly bids Kaiō farewell, and heads off with Uis for Earth. Goku is in bad shape, but still alive, and Kaiō curses him for his stupidity. He realizes he has to contact Vegeta right away and inform him of the situation.

Kanzenshuu - Vegeta is still off on his own training when Kaiō telepathically contacts him. After listening to what Kaiō has to say, Vegeta says he has heard of the God of Destruction, but he is not too worried that he is on his way to Earth. Kaiō warns that the Earth will be wiped out if they do not keep their hands off Birus, but Vegeta still does not care, at least not until Kaiō tells him that Birus took Super Saiyan 3 Goku down in just two blows. Vegeta rushes out and interrupts the party to warn everyone, but Birus is already there. Birus casually greets him, asking Vegeta if he remembers him. Vegeta recalls that when he was still little, his father King Vegeta treated Birus to a feast, but that Birus still used the King as a stepping stone at the time. Seeing Birus face-to-face, Vegeta can tell that Kaiō was not exaggerating; Birus is far too dangerous.

Stop repeating yourself, there is nothing here for me to care about or even bother mentioning in the debate.

Now this doesn`t make any sense? His Cosmic Awareness wouldn`t necessarily make him at a fighting genius it makes an intellect in the understanding of location and opponent but it doesn`t make him a fighting genius his feats prove otherwise. Yes a wave that didn`t destroy any galaxy whatsoever and that fight has nothing to do with his fight with Bills, Silver Surfer cannot even produce those types of attacks on a regular basis, most DBZ characters have the power to destroy planets and solar systems, Bills is far greater than any of them when holding back his true power. Silver Surfer also uses a form of time manipulation he doesn`t just simply move so fast that he exists time and space he has an ability that allows him to achieve that and that`s travel speed not combat speed.

Cosmic Awareness is knowledge. When the Surfer wants to know something, he does - for the High Evolutionary, he was quite literally being overwhelmed by the amount of cosmic awareness invested in the Silver Surfer.

He will see Bills and know everything there is to know about him and the most efficient way of defeating him. That beats any general knowledge Bills has or will have.

Feel free to show me a DBU character that isn't Broly destroying anything that isn't a planet. Let alone Solar Systems or Galaxies - arguing otherwise when planet busters have consistently been killing these characters since Cell Saga isn't the best argument, when characters much more powerful than Cell are still being incinerated by attacks that simply destroy the planet - (Gohan in this case or Vegeta and Goku given they where running for their lives against Kid Buu's attack). There is no point entertaining an argument where someone insists X character can do something they haven't done anything close to, if the Z fighters can release multi-light year sized attacks, they haven't really bothered to show that ability.

Yes the Surfer did that with speed, not time manipulation. Time Manipulation doesn't let you leave the boundaries of space and time - that doesn't make sense.

Show me scans of Surfer not being affected by energy blasts and then we`ll talk. He manipulated energies and thus absorbs them but it doesn`t mean he can`t be affected also my point was that Bills wasn`t even using anywhere near his true power to stomp the Z Fighters as well as SSJG Goku. Silver Surfer has never survived an attack that is galaxy or solar system level on that type of scale when harnessed into a burst of energy, he has never tanked anything like that. So can you show me a scan of him surviving an attack like that? Also Bills overpowered Goku with not much power, he held back 30% and has Silver Surfer ever produced a solar system or supernova leveling attack in one harnessed focus of energy if not then we would know that he pales in comparison to the more powerful Dragon Ball Z characters.

Are you just ignoring the scan with Quasar that I posted where he is blasting the Surfer with the power level of a miniature star and he completely tanks it without so much as acknowledging it? Simply responding to Quasar he told him, that attack would do any damage since he can tank "Raging" super novas without even feeling it because of the durability he has. Or are we talking about when he blasted Uni Lord with his own power and ignoring that?

Either or this argument is pointless if you aren't going to even read the scans you ask for.

Bills did not simply punch Goku to the West City he appeared instantly before him when delivering that strike. And that argument is just ridiculous you know that`s travel speed right? When the Silver Surfer is traveling at those speeds to search for a planet he isn`t actually battling anybody or giving them a tour of the universe.

Him going around the world, commenting about what he is watching and without anyone seeing or noticing him is a traveling speed showing? Is that some kind of joke? Bills putting himself dead infront of Goku after hitting him happens when he isn't fighting Goku right? The Surfer is going around the universe looking for specific planets fit for Galactus' consumption, its a lot more difficult a task that requires insane processing ability in his skull than finding Goku above a city on Earth. Its a much better feat.

In Dragon Ball Online which is canon and was written by Akira Toriyama, Vegeta and Goku`s fight in space caused or produced explosions that rivaled that of supernovas.

http://dbmmo.com/about

http://wiki.dbmmo.com/index.php?title=Storyline

Age 801 officially in text and translated, words of Akira Toriyama!

Goku goes missing. He and Vegeta realized they were nearing the end of their prime. Vegeta and Goku mysteriously vanish from Earth. Years later explosions on par with supernovas were detected which were believed to be caused by a battle between Goku and Vegeta.

Sources:

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=14963

http://cafe.daum.net/FoReVerDB/70rX/5635

http://dragonball.comgames.de/?forum-showposts-1479-p1

So at the end of their prime they are producing attacks that couldn't even hurt the Surfer decades ago? Cool. And by cool, I'm glad we're going the route of using rumors as another basis for your argument, you know, rather than showing them doing that and is something you acknowledge in your own words here as a rumor.

Translated: http://magikarp46.dyndns.org/dragonball/daizenshuu/07/07-046.html

For the word Kiri:

"キリ Kiri Kili An energy unit used by Bobbidi. When Bobbidi measured Goku's energy during his fight with Yakon, this unit was used. [Par.] Goku's energy level is over 3,000 kili. At approximately 200-300 kili, one can destroy 1 or 2 planets.

As stated within the official Daizenshuu and further confirmed within the manga, Goku with a PL of 3,000 within SSJ1 form would be able to blow up 10-15 planets greater in size than the earth or 10-15 planets at once as it even stated that it was 1 or 2 planets that someone with 200-300 kili would be able to accomplish easily. SSJ3 Goku would easily be able to destroy the Solar System and Perfect Cell can as well but Bills>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>SSJ3 Goku and Perfect Cell. Their attacks usually threaten to blow up the planet but they concentrate their attacks and Vegeta`s Final Flash almost destroyed the earth, Vegeta had to concentrate it but this recent ki attack consumed all of his ki energy unlike Final Flash also he did not have to power up as much which makes it more impressive for Bills and the attack itself was concentrated, concentrated explosions in most cases would be>>>>expanded ones.

Show me him or any other character from the series doing anything close. I could care less about made of numbers or math that is completely pointless to use in a debate.

And your point is? You haven`t exactly shown or proven why Silver Surfer would be able to fight at MFTL combat speeds he travels at those speeds but he certainly doesn`t fight at those speeds.

Why don't you show me Bills fighting at those speeds instead of claiming to me over and over he can. Not speeds Bulma or anyone in the cast can see. But MFTL speeds in combat. I'm a patient man, I can wait for you to find that evidence that so clearly exists for your character. =)

I was only making a point about Silver Surfer in regards to multiple showings and versions, you failed to understand the purpose of my argument.

Why do I care about multiple showings of non-canon appearances of Surfer's that aren't the one being discussed. Should I start arguing with Infinity Gauntlet Surfer in mind?

You haven`t proven otherwise so it doesn`t make sense for you to say nonsense when Silver Surfer does not have the same combat experience Bills has and he doesn`t use any form of specialized techniques he uses the Power Cosmic to solve most of his problems, where is his combat ability exactly.

What I call nonsense is nonsense. Half the discussion consists of you writing about irrelevant things, pure assumption and things that simply do not make sense. The Silver Surfer doesn't have the combat experience Bills has? For a guy that is appearing in one film that isn't much to worth not and for a character that has fought Gods or quite literally a devil that has been around likely since creation - not a good argument. The Z fighters use KI to do everything they do. Superman needs solar energy to do anything he does. My god, we've discovered the Silver Surfer needs power cosmic to do what he does!?

You know my point it doesn`t make sense for you to overlook them.

However Bills actually overpowered a SSJG Goku and he wasn`t at full power also he has displayed far greater technique than the other villains has any of the other villains done that?

You haven`t proven why it isn`t more durable than earth your judging it based on appearance so you haven`t actually provided anything other than your opinion and the point is Bills flicked Goku. King Kai`s planet is confirmed as being 10x Earth`s gravity.

I'm reading all of your points, the problem is they are flawed to the point you can't write a convincing argument based off anything fundamental to prove anything you're saying. You're resorting to power levels as an argument or what X character might be capable because he is more powerful than Y character. Power Levels mean nothing outside you're more powerful, it isn't a benchmark to formulate what a character can do outside beat X character.

I could care less what 30% means in this fight since it's completely assumption based, off an argument you're already running entirely off assumptions.

10x or 20x Earth's gravity means nothing when you are trying to argue that something the fraction of the size of earth, composed of dirt, grass and rock is more durable than any generic rocky planet orbiting a star. It's a bad argument that has no merit, it helps that Bills isn't knocking giant holes in the Earth when he hits Goku into it. Now if you can point out to me any evidence for the claim King Kai's planet is more durable than the Earth outside magic gravity - best to stop arguing something you quite literally pulled out of thin air - its really trollish.

I already explained why Bills would be able to do the same what Broly did in regards to busting a galaxy all you did was ignore and overlook it. Bills also overpowered a SSJG Goku with only 70% of his power that is something you are forgetting.

Broly actually would relate to Bills considering how powerful Bills would be and its not senseless conjecture you made it out to be, Bills is far more powerful than Broly its like arguing Vegito wouldn`t be able to bust a planet because he hasn`t shown to do it and Frieza in his first form destroyed Planet Vegeta.

No I pointed out how incredibly flawed that train of logic is. You can't "prove" something by telling me unrelated events and more or less arguing how he is way more powerful than Cell so he can destroy a Galaxy. That isn't an argument. I could care less he overpowered SSJG Goku - unless you can prove why that is a big feat - it lacks substance.

Broly's overall destructive capacity was well beyond Bills displayed power. The thing about Vegito is he doesn't need to destroy a planet, they've been capable of that since Saiyan Saga at the very least. The problem is, you're going from something that has been done by characters in the series (that being planetary destruction and NOTHING else) and insisting something that has NEVER been done by anyone in the series (as in NO WHERE NEAR solar System busting, much-less Galaxy Busting) is possible because - more or less - you think he can. That is not an argument, at least not one anyone will acknowledge that demands any sort of evidence.

Also like I said you ignored my kiai argument and you haven`t posted anything in regards to Silver Surfer`s combat reaction feats.

Like I said I was only making a point about Silver Surfer and Superman, this Bills character actually has official information released as well as accurately shown based on the official synopsis, I even explained the situation so its not a form of bias unlike you assumes things and downgrades a DBZ character with DBZ generalizations such as it being the same thing over and over.

Like what exactly?

The problem is you're asking me for feats of him fighting at MFTL while completely neglecting to prove Bills is even in that ballpark of speed. We could post a ton of feats in regards for the Surfer, but why does it matter if you can't hold up your side of the bargain and show me how fast Bill is - not how many characters he is significantly more powerful than can hit him.

DBZ is inherently un-original - it isn't me downgrading the series, but at this point it really hasn't evolved in over a decade, so why should I be complimenting it for repeating what its been doing shamelessly for more money? We're getting nothing out of this film except what we've been getting since Saiyan Saga - more of the same.

Telepathy, Astral Plane, opening singularities in Bills eye sockets, removing his powers, etc, etc. If Bills has the ability to resist any of his powers, you sure as hell can't prove it. You can't even prove he can hurt the Silver Surfer - which is really doesn't help you here. Your argument is essentially one big assumption of how powerful Bills is. So far you can't prove anything you're saying and it becomes one big wall of text after another with no merit behind it.

#232 Posted by Bane_of_sith (2780 posts) - - Show Bio

Great I guess we have a million bills threads to look forward to now,,the DBS fans are salivating

#233 Posted by NeonGameWave (7688 posts) - - Show Bio

@isaac_clarke: Actually, I pretty much to a degree agreed with Walzo`s point about Silver Surfer`s intangibility so Silver Surfer should win through that ability, however what I will say is that a lot of the points you just made within your recent response is assumptive, also you ignored my points once again taking them out of context and many of the points are ignorant to the fact of how DBZ actually works and why it differs but there is no need for me to respond to it due to the reasons above.

#234 Posted by isaac_clarke (5448 posts) - - Show Bio

@neongamewave said:

I never denied that he can but Bills can produce attacks that are far above planetary attacks

Prove it. Prove anything. Don't repeat the same things over and over without any evidence outside out of context clips or irrelevant scans that don't prove you points.

@comicstooge: That`s impressive but Bills actually overpowered a SSJG Goku who was using Instant Transmission which is instantaneous as well as way above light speed and he did this while holding back 30% of his true power.

What's "way above light speed"? Two, Three? A hundred times the speed of light? What does 30% of his true power do?

@thc said:

@comicstooge said:

@neongamewave said:

@comicstooge: There`s a difference between Travel Speed and Combat Speed. Bills actually battles at those speeds its like saying Superman can fight at FTL speeds because he travels at FTL during flight and Superman accelerates when in doing those things as well similar to how the Silver Surfer manipulates time to achieve things beyond normal speed level.

I know the difference, I'm just saying that Surfer flew down, grabbed those people and flew out in less then a second, showing he has at LEAST microsecond reaction speed.

Then by feats Surfer's combat speed is comparable to kid Krillin who fought an entire fight with Muten Roshi in 3 seconds showing microsecond reaction speed, subsequently speedblitz'd by Goku

Goku as a kid was clearly beyond hypersonic, and as a teenager began approaching the 1% of light speed mark as he and his opponents such as Tien and Piccolo began regularly completely vanishing from sight during combat. 18:50:

By feats he's able to react in under a nano-second. If we want to post some old-school scans - since we're visiting dragon ball for feats -

I'm not a big fan of old scans, since they aren't the best bench marks for characters. Though given Quasar does something similar when responding to an attack by Lord Mar-Vell and unless the Surfer has suddenly got mentally slower over the decades when Quasar was commenting a reversal of how much more easily he can do anything:

So these characters can still, even today, react to those speeds in a combat / threat situation.

Albeit the Surfer has searched an entire planet before some could finish a sentence (As in Dr. Strange couldn't find them with a spell, good chance the Surfer had to search through the entire planet's population for one individual visually). It's consistent with how he is currently depicted where he can go around the world and give a great deal of thought the the events transpiring from Olympus, to New York and what have you - something as small as Spiderman on a rocket fighting Scorpian is something that gives him thought as he mentions he could fix all the worlds issues in a moment.

There isn't anything to indicate the Surfer is any-slower than he was decades ago.

#235 Posted by isaac_clarke (5448 posts) - - Show Bio

@isaac_clarke: Actually, I pretty much to a degree agreed with Walzo`s point about Silver Surfer`s intangibility so Silver Surfer should win through that ability, however what I will say is that a lot of the points you just made within your recent response is assumptive, also you ignored my points once again taking them out of context and many of the points are ignorant to the fact of how DBZ actually works and why it differs but there is no need for me to respond to it due to the reasons above.

If you want to argue they are assumptions, then yes you could do so. The problem is they are all based off what the character has actually done and the lack of proof to say he can't do them to said character. But if intangibility was the Achilles heel of this argument, I wish I had mentioned it earlier.

#236 Edited by NeonGameWave (7688 posts) - - Show Bio

@isaac_clarke: I already did prove why and I explained in full detail, your just going to dismiss it as DBZ logic.

Bills is FTL and beyond instantaneous movement, 30% in regards to his overall power, and performance his Master Whis even further confirms this idea when he said he put about 70% in terms of effort within his fight against SSJG Goku meaning he performed all of those feats at only 70%, 30% was held back and Bills even says that he is not fighting nowhere close to his true power.

#237 Edited by NeonGameWave (7688 posts) - - Show Bio

@neongamewave said:

@isaac_clarke: Actually, I pretty much to a degree agreed with Walzo`s point about Silver Surfer`s intangibility so Silver Surfer should win through that ability, however what I will say is that a lot of the points you just made within your recent response is assumptive, also you ignored my points once again taking them out of context and many of the points are ignorant to the fact of how DBZ actually works and why it differs but there is no need for me to respond to it due to the reasons above.

If you want to argue they are assumptions, then yes you could do so. The problem is they are all based off what the character has actually done and the lack of proof to say he can't do them to said character. But if intangibility was the Achilles heel of this argument, I wish I had mentioned it earlier.

I will not, although I can without a doubt based on the nature of the arguments and what is considered fact, however there is no real point and through intangibility Silver Surfer should be able to win against Bills.

#238 Edited by debeze (243 posts) - - Show Bio

They are pretty even in speed

now what about durability and strength

didnt the silver surfer survived a super nova explosion?

#239 Posted by isaac_clarke (5448 posts) - - Show Bio

@isaac_clarke: I already did prove why and I explained in full detail, your just going to dismiss it as DBZ logic.

Bills is FTL and beyond instantaneous movement, 30% in regards to his overall power, and performance his Master Whis even further confirms this idea when he said he put about 70% in terms of effort within his fight against SSJG Goku meaning he performed all of those feats at only 70%, 30% was held back and Bills even says that he is not fighting nowhere close to his true power.

Beyond instantaneous movement. I have no idea how this makes any sense whatsoever, but whatever.

#240 Posted by NeonGameWave (7688 posts) - - Show Bio

@isaac_clarke: IT is instantaneous and Bills was able to outpace Goku who was utilizing it.

#241 Edited by debeze (243 posts) - - Show Bio

i think silver surfer wins

#242 Edited by name12345 (560 posts) - - Show Bio

i honestly think Bills sucks as a villain... Anyway he would win without even trying like he does with Goku SS3, remember that he's a GOD.

Bills is the God of Destruction of the Seventh Universe

SS can't fight

#243 Edited by xeon1cs (1479 posts) - - Show Bio

@name12345: What does being a god have to do with anything? I never understood this, that just because they're labeled a god means they're unbeatable?

He isn't God. He's a god.

#244 Posted by name12345 (560 posts) - - Show Bio

@xeon1cs said:

@name12345: What does being a god have to do with anything? I never understood this, that just because they're labeled a god means they're unbeatable?

He isn't God. He's a god.

BECAUSE this is not marvel or dc where gods are just another race, like the Asgardians. In DBZ Gods are Gods.

Do you remember Shenron? he can grant ANY whish to a mortal, well he is just a magic dragon created by a God.

Shenron himself could kill SS, imagine what could do the God of Destruction of the Seventh Universe...

#245 Edited by xeon1cs (1479 posts) - - Show Bio

@name12345: Didn't they true to use Shenron to kill Vegeta/Nappa or was it the Androids?

Either way, they couldn't.

#246 Posted by debeze (243 posts) - - Show Bio

@xeon1cs: ye shenron cant kill or dissapear people

#247 Posted by debeze (243 posts) - - Show Bio

does the '' 7th universe'' ring a bell?

there is 7 dragon balls and they are in the 7th universe hmmm.

and shenron knows bills strange.

#248 Edited by name12345 (560 posts) - - Show Bio

@xeon1cs said:

@name12345: Didn't they true to use Shenron to kill Vegeta/Nappa or was it the Androids?

Either way, they couldn't.

no they never tried to use the dragon balls to kill warriors, don't lie.

DBZ warriors are warriors and they like to FIGHT. That's why Goku allowed Frieza to reach his final form, he could've killed him soner but he wanted to fight him at his best. That's why what you said is completely untrue and you lied to make a point, pathetic.

Shenron is omnipotent and he's just a magical dragon created by a God of DBZ

again

Bills is the God of Destruction of the Seventh Universe... VS Silversurfer? seriously?

you are not making any sense...

#249 Posted by xeon1cs (1479 posts) - - Show Bio

@name12345: Shenron isn't omnipotent though.

There isn't an omnipotent in DBZ at all.

He had clear limitations on what people could and could not do with the Dragon Balls.

#250 Edited by name12345 (560 posts) - - Show Bio

@xeon1cs said:

@name12345: Shenron isn't omnipotent though.

There isn't an omnipotent in DBZ at all.

He had clear limitations on what people could and could not do with the Dragon Balls.

Wrong! those limitations are for humans only... infact they tricked him once to do something they could not.

Whatever think what you want, if you like to be illogical that's your problem.