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#151 Posted by debeze (243 posts) - - Show Bio
#152 Edited by NeonGameWave (8005 posts) - - Show Bio

@isaac_clarke said:

@neongamewave said:

I just pointed out why, his transmutation is entirely superficial. As far as the incident with Vegito revealed, nothing fundamentally changes outside of appearance. Otherwise the change to a ball of candy would have been instantaneous death for Vegito, much less result in a situation where it is capable of thought / movement.

In what sense? What makes Bills atomic structure any different than anyone elses? Gods in Marvel are at least sporting physical forms that quite literally break reality and that could argument for why they aren't being atomized by characters (albeit Thor has been fused into pavement before). The Surfer on the other hand has been shown manipulating structures of worlds and stars (for example, with Quasar and Ronan - fusing a normal star with a magic black star). It isn't some sort of cheap imitation, but an actual transformation into the desired object / matter. He's done it more than once in the last few years without breaking a sweat, don't know why this would be any different.

@neongamewave said:

Bills overpowered a SSJG Goku with only 70% of his power and he was moving at MFTL speeds within combat and travel. Has Silver Surfer ever produced any attacks that are above planetary? Or has he ever survived any attacks that are solar system level or galaxy level? Bills took an attack from a bloodlusted Vegeta who used up all of his ki energy and the attack left no scratch. Also its important to note that Vegeta usually doesn't power down so quickly when in using his strongest attacks that threaten to destroy the planet and when he fired his concentrated blast against Bills he powered down instantly, and he had no energy left that attack was definitely way above planetary level. He even took a Kamehameha from Goku who had the SSJG power but it left no scratch. His master Whis who trained him and knows him the best said the following: Uis warns everyone to be careful what they say; if anything rubs Birus the wrong way, he will destroy the entire solar system in no time at all.

He destroyed two primordeal beings on Galactus' level of power using the Crunch (energies of creation) and defeated Uni-Lord using his own power against him. Those are his two big feats in terms of doing something beyond planetary in terms of destructive power. With the Primordeal Gods he was already dying according Tenebrous after taking multiple hits from both of them (mind you, Tenebrous on his own was able to fight Galactus for a time, before Aegis blindsided him). Destroying a solar system isn't at all beyond the Surfer's ability.

@neongamewave said:

It was also translated as blink of an eye and there is no indication to suggest that it would require Bills to use his full power or even for him to power up, his master Whis obviously meant with ease or no trouble at all. Bills has the power to destroy galaxies and he has the better fighting technique, he could target Silver Surfer in all of his pressure points, he knocked out SSJ Vegeta, SSJ3 Goku, Piccolo, Gotenks, Android 18, Majin Buu and etc with light attacks or pressure point techniques, he wasn`t even trying at all when in doing these things. Bills was holding back against Goku and he even confirmed it along with his master Whis, he only utilized 70% of his power when he fought against SSJG Goku who used 80% and went all out yet he was able to overpower him remember Bills was not bloodlusted within that fight and he still managed to knock around a SSJG Goku who was using Instant Transmission also Bills along with Goku created earth shattering shockwaves. If Bills goes all out with his full power he will tear the Silver Surfer apart and have him blasted into oblivion.

A blink of a eye is actually a very long time, especially for a character like the Silver Surfer.

The Silver Surfer torn apart? The only characters that have ever broken his skin have either been sporting Nigh-Omnipotence or have been Abstracts: Earth shattering shockwaves isn't a big deal to an individual that nearly destroyed Earth in his sleep (nightmare zing). The true irony of it all, even if he could "tear apart" the Silver Surfer, he wouldn't be dead. He's already been chopped to pieces on two occasions (good as new by the next page) and in more recent showings turned himself into the wind, snow, dirt, etc and was a disembodied voice as he chatted with the Defenders.

@neongamewave said:

Also saying Goku died to a heart virus is downgrading him in every way possible since we do not know the actual nature of the heart virus itself and where it came from. Bills is the God of Destruction for the entire universe, he maintains balance by destroying stars and planets also he destroys different forms of life, he must of destroyed many galaxies in his lifetime. Kid Buu has destroyed hundreds of worlds easily while hopping around from world to world, Bills has way more experience and its his job to destroy planets and stars, the Kais fear him also even the Eternal Dragon Shenron fears him. I read the official and entire synopsis and I know what happens in the movie. Even when Goku had received his new SSJG power he still failed miserably against a Bills who was holding back most of his true power.

It was meant to be downgrading in response to a silly post to begin with. The actual nature of the heart virus was a simple virus that was potentially lethal without the proper medicine from the future. It wasn't some sort of magic virus, simply a virus was capable of putting Goku down - opening an entire book of possibilities if we actually toyed with what radiation would have down to him. "Must have" isn't evidence, he as with any threat in DBU is a planet buster.

The latter portion of this comment makes one question why should we debate off nothing if you haven't even seen the film? Its just silly.

The point was that the attack or attempt itself was ineffective, he was protected from being transmuted thanks to his ki level which surpasses Super Buuhan`s and Bills` ki>>>>>>>>>>>>Vegito`s and Super Buhaan`s. Ki is the distributive factor for feats with DBZ as confirmed and implied by Akira Toriyama himself. Has Silver Surfer ever performed this ability on different types of beings before instead of non living things? Also there is no proof to suggest that it would work on Bills more effectively than Majin Buu`s transmutation working on Vegito or Silver Surfer`s ability to transmute through cosmic working on celestial bodies.

That is very impressive but it doesn`t mean he could change the atomic structure of Bills assuming that he would be able to catch him to begin with and the difference with Thor and etc is that Bills has actually shown resistance to transmutation, Bills` anatomy and body structure is very different in comparison to many of the lesser beings. My point is has Silver Surfer ever used it before on these types of beings and if its so effective why doesn`t he use it on these types of beings during a fight other than CIS or PIS?

He defeated those gods by using some type of power up, right? Also like I said Bills can destroy galaxies and solar systems also he did not use his max power when fighting Goku. Also my point is that Silver Surfer has never tanked a galaxy leveling attack before so if Bills fires off an attack of that level he wouldn`t be able to survive it. Also like I said Bills created shockwaves and sent Goku flying across the world by only delivering pretty light blows not critical ones and none of Goku`s attacks were able to put down Bills by much. Vegeta`s attack that is composed 100% of his ki energy was unable to leave a scratch on Bills.

No it isn`t, also notice the other translation where it says in no time at all meaning it would be instantly destroyed and also that is Bills not utilizing his true power. Silver Surfer does not have galaxy leveling durability neither does he have solar system durability and weaker attacks have caused problems for him before. Bills is MFTL in combat speed and travel speed while holding back his true power so imagine how much faster he would be if were to go all out and Bills also was able to outpace as well as overpower Goku who was using Instant Transmission. Silver Surfer excels in travel speed does he excel in combat or reaction speed? Beings like Thanos, Thor and Nova are even able to react to him and perceive him at different moments in time in regards to when he is about to launch an attack. Also other than his classic showings what has he done so significant recently that would suggest that he would be able to do such things?

Has been blow into oblivion before? Bills could also target his pressure points and weaken him. Bills has the better fighting ability and experience, he`s taken down beings who are fighting geniuses with zero effort and he tanked their destructive attacks with no scratch so what attack would Silver Surfer be able to produce that would be able to harm or put down Bills exactly? Silver Surfer has great power when it comes to versatility but I`m not so sure if he would be able to wipe out a solar system or galaxy for that matter, Bills on the other hand can.

It doesn`t change the fact that the actual heart virus itself is unknown in nature and that was Goku in the earlier parts of the series not during the later parts where he improves dramatically in all aspects. This heart virus does not have to be magical, the point is that we do not know the actual dangers of this heart virus other than Saiyans are susceptible to it and it was spreading rapidly having deadly effects we do not know the actual origin or where it originated from.

I have read the entire synopsis and I know what happens in the film based on spoilers so it does make sense actually and the movie has been released for officially 2 days now so I am not disobeying the rules either in regards to waiting for the film to be released concrete information has been released and revealed the entire film will leak very soon but it doesn`t mean we can`t make arguments on Bills` behalf.

Knocked back by Mjonir, I don`t even believe Thor has FTL reflexes or combat speed he is very sluggish and slow when it comes to fighting or brawling. Silver Surfer is extremely fast when it comes to travel speed but I don`t think he is that fast when it comes to combat speed.

Terrax is a great threat and is extremely powerful but I`m just curious, does he have MFTL combat speed or reaction time?

Now many would argue about the fact that Rulk is a PIS machine and he is terribly written by Jeph Loeb however the point I am trying to convey is that Silver Surfer like Superman suffers in regards to feats as they seem to be all over the place due to the different writers within Marvel who change things around or have something occur that contradicts with something else that had occurred in another story. Without the surfboard and his cosmic energy which Rulk absorbed he was easily depowered or powered down and he fell to Rulk pretty fast considering the situation, Bills is MFTL in combat speed when holding back and Goku even with his SSJG power barely managed to absorb or resist Bills God of Destruction Energy Sphere which threatened to destroy the earth and Bills was not even using his absolute max power.

Bills stomps every single one of the Z Fighters with zero effort including Ultimate Gohan and he did this without using any real power up, he attacked them lightly within their critical points and had them demolished. Bills also stomped Majin Buu with his kiai which is the aura that surrounds DBZ characters and Goku has used kiai before too as a way to destroy things and force back his enemies. Also Akira Toriyama confirmed that ki is an important factor along with ki control and Bills>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Goku in all aspects, his kiai would force back the Silver Surfer which ultimately means that Bills wouldn`t even have to touch the Silver Surfer he would just utilize his kiai and it would act as a method of telekinesis, this barrier of kiai could protect Bills from the Silver Surfer`s incoming attacks or assaults.

He absolutely destroyed Goku who was in SSJ3 form and notice how he appears right before Goku as he then proceeds to using a simple and seemingly harmless finger flick to send him borrowing down King Kai`s planet which is a lot more durable than Earth, 1:44 - 1:48. He even stopped Goku`s attacks with no real effort and he also did this without the need to see where the attack was coming from.

Kaizenshuu - Angered, Birus punches Goku hard in the gut, then sends him flying through West City with a ferocious kick. Goku stops himself mid-air, but before he can do anything Birus is already there and puts Goku in a headlock. Birus quickly whirls around him, kicks Goku off into a nearby forest, and gives chase. Not able to see them, Kame-Sen’nin and the others run over to a Capsule ship and fly off after the two. Goku and Birus continue exchanging blows in the forest, when Birus sends Goku flying with another kick to the face. Birus flies off after him and the two end up in a desert area with numerous rock formations surrounding them. Goku and Birus charge at each other and their punches collide, sending out an Earth-shattering shockwave. They pull away from each other and a trickle of blood falls from a cut on Goku’s cheek.

Kaizenshuu - Birus admits that he too is dissatisfied, because he is still not fighting with anywhere close to his full power. Goku is amazed, since he himself has only been fighting at close to 80% of his full power.

Kaizenshuu - Uis says that Birus put forth about 70% of his full power in that fight.

Kanzenshuu - Vegeta unleashes a giant ki attack at Birus, which catches the attention of the people in West City. A police woman remarks that Capsule Corporation must be setting off extra-large fireworks again.

Kazenshuu - Vegeta reverts back to his normal state, having used up all of his power in that last attack, and as the smoke clears, is shocked to see that Birus is undamaged.

Vegeta`s attack which he concentrated on Bills should be>>>>>>>>>>>>Final Flash since he immediately powered down and the attack was able to gain attention from across the world, when he unleashed Final Flash against Perfect Cell he concentrated the attack and the attack threatened to destroy the planet but he did not power down at all, when he used this ki attack against Bills he powered down completely right after and it consumed 100% of his ki energy, this attack is way above planetary level. Also this blast came from a bloodlusted and angry Vegeta who saw Bulma get slapped by Bills and he charged at him being motivated within those moments he temporarily surpassed Goku but even his efforts did not pay off and he was easily knocked out by a simple touch by Bills.

Akira Toriyama:"When it comes to battle, the most important thing is KI SIZE, and its control. Of course, “ki” also includes such spiritual power as energy/vigor [genki] and bravery [yuuki], and being in one’s right mind [shouki] (note 11). There’s a limit to physical strength, no matter how much you toughen it up, and the only way to overcome that it is with “ki”. I think that it was through turning ki into formidable power that Goku drew closer to being the strongest warrior in the universe"

Goku was able to hold back Final Form Frieza`s ultimate attack which he used to destroy planet Vegeta which is 10x the size and mass of earth. Frieza was in his first form and had a PL of 530,000 yet he was able to destroy Planet Vegeta with less than 1% of his power, Goku is able to hold back or repel a far more powerful version of this same attack but he struggles to hold off against Bills attack even when receiving a boost in power from Ultimate Gohan, Vegeta, Goten, Trunks and Pan.

Skip to 0:45 of the second video, Goku is able to hold back Final Form Frieza`s most powerful attack and this is him in SSJ1 form yet he struggles even while in SSJG form after absorbing Bills God of Destruction Energy Sphere he becomes exhausted as he can no longer fight and this is Bills holding back 30% of his real actual power its like he was testing Goku because even throughout the fight he was asking Goku questions and seemed to want to push him, Goku was using his absolute true power yet he loses to a depowered and weaker Bills who isn`t using his true power, he was holding back a huge portion yet he was able to fight at MFTL speeds, tank supernova+++attacks and outpace Instant Transmission. Goku decides to give up and this Goku going all out against a Bills who restrained 30% of his overall true power he did not go all out at all yet he managed to easily overpower Goku and convince him to say give up, Goku absorbed the attack while in SSJG form but he was left in a state where he was unable to fight and also Bills brings more clarification on the DBZ universe which is now a multiverse and I explain why that is important.

Kanzenshuu - Birus’s energy ball threatens to destroy the Earth, but as his friends and family cheer him on, Goku momentarily becomes Super Saiyan God once again, and repels the attack. Impressed, Birus asks Goku what he did, but Goku does not know. Birus does not understand this, but thinks Goku always has something interesting to say.

Birus decides to stop the fight, if Goku will say that he gives up. Goku obliges and surrenders, saying he is not any match for Birus, whose strength is just what you would expect from the best in the universe

Kanzenshuu - Birus continues, saying that this world is the Seventh Universe. Birus explains that he is the God of Destruction for the Seventh Universe, but there are twelve universes in total.

This is important because it could mean that the movies although canon may hold some form of significance to the world of DB due to the fact that Akira makes mention of them himself and here is what he has to say about them.

Akira Toriyama approved of the script:

“Q: What work do you do on the films, Sensei?”

“A: I check the plot and script that gets sent to me from Toei Animation. I also do some character designs and touch-ups, as well as altering the names and such.”

Toriyama: “I take the movies as “stories in a different dimension from the main story of the manga”. I’m entirely just an audience member for them.”

This means they are alternative realities this would include GT and it also means that there is many possibilities that occur within these other 11 universes and Broly as shown in his first appearance destroyed a galaxy in his weaker form. This is not a mere galaxy but rather a quadrant of the universe and Bills>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Broly in overall power he would be able to destroy a galaxy as well. Many like to say that it was sped up or not described properly even when all versions of the translations ultimately point to the same thing, Broly did destroy the galaxy and the writers of the movie obviously had that scene there in the beginning of the movie for a reason. Even if there are to be 200 million planets left it wouldn`t mean that the galaxy wasn`t destroyed and Bills could do this if he wanted to in no time and he probably has considering the fact that he keeps balance throughout the entire universe, he is the God of Destruction for the Seventh Universe. Omega Shenron from GT and Hirudegarn from Wrath of the Dragon were described as being Gods of Destruction which furthers this point about them possibly being in relation to what Bills had talked about in regards to there being twelve universe in total which points to the fact that DB characters will only become more powerful and it furthers the idea of these other existing forms of media having some type of tie within the entire situation itself but from alternative realities or dimensions.

When Super Buuhan went berserk he was affecting things within the world which extended to Other World and etc. Things on a dimensional and space level were having rifts broken down all around, also Super Buuhan even was able to create a barrier which had a lot of destructive force yet Vegito is able to overpower it, and this same destruction force is capable of destroying the universe due to all of the rifts being formed from this energy sphere and if Vegito still was able to overpower or repel it with his own ki energy. This is taken from the official Daizenshuu and the following information from the Daizenshuu will shed further light on this fact. For the video skip to 11:35 and watch from there to 13:00.

Notably the Daizenshuu discussed the anime too and states that when Buu absorbed Gohan and fought Vegeto and went into a frenzy Buu could have destroyed the universe.

Daizenshuu- Overwhelmed by Vegetto, Buu went into a frenzy and generated this, which caused distortions to appear in the space around him. It seems that this power was also what enabled Buu to escape from the Room of Spirit and Time. This space would cover the living world and wipe out the universe.

Akira Toriyama - This Daizenshuu, the 7th and final one, is a huge Dragon Ball encyclopedia. I think the staff who make these books always have a rough time of it, but this one looked even more hellish than usual. They really did a great job. I am ridiculously forgetful, so despite being the author there is lots of stuff even I do not know anymore. It was often quite a nuisance, and I think having this encyclopedia around when the series was still running would have really helped me out. Darn it all. Anyway, my thanks to the staff, and to all Dragon Ball fan."

These handbooks or guidebooks are officially approved and written by Akira Toriyama himself so all information is 100% confirmed as well as 100% confirmed as credible.

It is also confirmed that Bills is>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Super Buhaan and Vegito in all aspects of power as well as fighting ability.

So I don`t think Silver Surfer would be able to defeat Bills who is utilizing 100% of his absolute power. In his weakest state or form, Bills would be able to wipe out the entire solar system in an instant also he had to hold back 30% of his power to make it fair for Goku and he was being generous but he still managed to perform feats such as battling at MFTL speeds, outpacing IT and overwhelming Goku as well as generating Earth shattering shockwaves while battling pretty lightly now his Silver Surfer supposed to deal with Bills who is going at 100% when with 70% he was able to do the things that I have mentioned? What is the other 30% that Bills kept within himself? If he unleashed that power he would have Goku killed and annihilated in an instant, to top it off, Bills is a god who has been around for eons since the time of the Supreme Kais who create life within the universe and he instills fear in all of them, he has been destroying stars, planets and etc for many eras, he definitely has been destroying galaxies in his time.

Officially said by King Kai throughout the beginning of the fim: King Kai then explains that there are gods who give birth to life-forms and worlds but in contrast to them there are gods who maintain balance by destroying these things, the aptly named God of Destruction.

At Bills' temple, alarm bombs are exploding, but the God of Destruction continues his 39 year long slumber. His attendant,Whis, insists that he awake now and threatens to perform an "awakening song" if he does not arise. Terrified, Bills shoots awake and proceeds to slide down from his bed atop a floating rock. Bills, who is cranky having woken up much earlier then before, is reminded by Whis that he was the one that set this as the time of his next awakening, and is then questioned about his wanting to be woken so early. Bills, now cleaning his fur, states that he was concerned about something in this era.

The Supreme Kais can create stars and world as they are opposing force to the Gods of Destruction who destroy forms of life whether it be stars, worlds, planets and etc.

Now this is Bills` God of Destruction Energy Sphere and this attack easily>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Final Form Frieza`s Supernova attack. Goku barely held this attack back even when he tapped into the power of his SSJG form he still was left exhausted after absorbing the attack and he was out of energy remember this is Bills holding back his true power which is kept within a great percentage of 30% in regards to his overall power.

Also this film is canon and takes place several years after the Buu Saga, Vegeta and Goku were training also as shown in the beginning of the film they are improving since their fight against Majin Buu and by the end of Z they would easily be Solar System Busters themselves. Perfect Cell alone would be a Solar System Buster and I explained why in previous pages why it is the case. Bills still is>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>all of the Z characters even after they received their training and power ups this proves why Bills would be a galaxy buster.

Even Kid Buu like I said before was going around easily destroying hundreds of worlds and threatening the universe, the Supreme Kais who govern the different Quadrants of the Universe viewed him as a universal threat and this is said by Akira Toriyama himself.

  • There is no telling how powerful Buu was if he actually went all out and fully powered up and shot a single blast.
  • In fact, Toriyama said Buu's power was immeasurable! Hence why a Genki Dama of immeasurable power was also needed.

From the very first issue of the American "Shonen Jump", dated: Vol. 1, #1, January 2003:

"ASK AKIRA TORIYAMA!
From 1998 to 2002, the DRAGON BALL and DRAGON BALL Z monthly comics received thousands of letters from fans in the U.S., Canada, and around the world. We've taken the most interesting questions from the letters and asked Akira Toriyama himself!

Q: What is Majin Buu's power level?

A: The frightening thing about Majin Buu is his unknown, unfathomable power. Whether it's actually not that much, or whether it's really stupendous, majin Buu himself probably doesn't know the answer.

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=17921

Daizenshu 2, p. 217:

Bills at 0% would still be>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Kid Buu and also notice how Kid Buu even manipulates the structure of his ki attack when destroying the Earth through ki control as said by Akira Toriyama himself.

Bills has been around far longer and has destroyed planets far longer than Kid Buu has, he easily could destroy a galaxy if he wanted to and he has been balancing out the entire universe so he has been traversing around the entire universe destroying all types of planets, worlds and stars.

Out of all the many gods in the universe, Bills is the most feared. He is feared even by Kais and Supreme Kais. As a God of Destruction, he was once tasked with maintaining balance in the universe. Bills is the God of Destruction of the Seventh Universe, and his administrative zone include planet Earth. He slumbers for several years to several decades straight, and he destroys planets of his administrative zone during the few years when he is awake. This is because destruction is required in order to create new planets, but he does not act on Supreme Kais' orders; the God of Destruction destroys according to his own individual judgment. Also, because he is capricious, he destroys even important planets without a second thought. When he finds it bothersome, he lets someone else act as an agent of destruction. While he is awake, tense days for the Supreme Kai continue, as nobody knows how many planets will be sacrificed.

The Supreme Kais once ruled over the entire universe (Other World and living world), with the Grand Supreme Kai overseeing them (the same way that the regular Kais rule over their individual quadrants of the living world, with a Grand Kai in charge of the four of them). They are the Gods of Creation (Sozoshin) who provide the catalyst for life and planets to be born, as opposed to the Gods of Destruction who destroy life and planets, which maintains the balance of the universe. Supreme Kai are able to provide the impetus for planets to be born; also, they will sometimes divide up one planet and increase the number of planets. They even do things like create life-forms, or transplant them from another planet, but their basic job is to watch over the numerous planets.

#153 Posted by debeze (243 posts) - - Show Bio
#154 Edited by Simon_the_digger (3091 posts) - - Show Bio

@neongamewave: Red Hulk didn't beat 616 Surfer, he beat one from an alternate universe, and he had no idea what he was doing there.

Surfer has nanosecond reaction time and has MFTL travel speed.

Random question did you actually see the movie?

#155 Posted by OmgOmgWtfWtf (7040 posts) - - Show Bio

You know a debate gets bad when people channel Leob Force Rulk as a legitimate feat and every time Silver Surfer gets hit he must not be FTL. I mean every time Superman gets hit his foes clearly must be faster then he is.

#156 Posted by xeon1cs (1479 posts) - - Show Bio

You know a debate gets bad when people channel Leob Force Rulk as a legitimate feat and every time Silver Surfer gets hit he must not be FTL. I mean every time Superman gets hit his foes clearly must be faster then he is.

Literally every scan you'll see from people debating this, will just be Silver Surfer laying on the ground. 100% out of context as to how it happened.

#157 Edited by isaac_clarke (5448 posts) - - Show Bio

The point was that the attack or attempt itself was ineffective, he was protected from being transmuted thanks to his ki level which surpasses Super Buuhan`s and Bills` ki>>>>>>>>>>>>Vegito`s and Super Buhaan`s. Ki is the distributive factor for feats with DBZ as confirmed and implied by Akira Toriyama himself. Has Silver Surfer ever performed this ability on different types of beings before instead of non living things? Also there is no proof to suggest that it would work on Bills more effectively than Majin Buu`s transmutation working on Vegito or Silver Surfer`s ability to transmute through cosmic working on celestial bodies.

That is very impressive but it doesn`t mean he could change the atomic structure of Bills assuming that he would be able to catch him to begin with and the difference with Thor and etc is that Bills has actually shown resistance to transmutation, Bills` anatomy and body structure is very different in comparison to many of the lesser beings. My point is has Silver Surfer ever used it before on these types of beings and if its so effective why doesn`t he use it on these types of beings during a fight other than CIS or PIS?

Since when has KI done anything to prevent their atomic structure from being played with? You're completely making this up. This instance with Vegito isn't the only red flag - when in Fat Buu's case he was also turned into a cookie yet found himself completely normal inside Buu after being consumed. Every actual example of the candy / snack-beam has yet to say otherwise when we keep seeing cases where the individual is clearly not just a piece of candy.

The Surfer's turned people to stone and has atomized people for less. The latter being his more recent stuff in Defenders:

Outside that we've seen the character synthesize Odin Power, play with the atomic structure worlds and what have you. There is hardly anything outside purple skin and a feline appearance to seperate him from any other humanoid in the DBU in physical appearance - simply out - you really don't have anything here worth mentioning in the atomic structure manipulation department for Bills outside the candy-beam which has this very clear limitation on anyone that can fly - they don't become candy.

He defeated those gods by using some type of power up, right? Also like I said Bills can destroy galaxies and solar systems also he did not use his max power when fighting Goku. Also my point is that Silver Surfer has never tanked a galaxy leveling attack before so if Bills fires off an attack of that level he wouldn`t be able to survive it. Also like I said Bills created shockwaves and sent Goku flying across the world by only delivering pretty light blows not critical ones and none of Goku`s attacks were able to put down Bills by much. Vegeta`s attack that is composed 100% of his ki energy was unable to leave a scratch on Bills.

No it isn`t, also notice the other translation where it says in no time at all meaning it would be instantly destroyed and also that is Bills not utilizing his true power. Silver Surfer does not have galaxy leveling durability neither does he have solar system durability and weaker attacks have caused problems for him before. Bills is MFTL in combat speed and travel speed while holding back his true power so imagine how much faster he would be if were to go all out and Bills also was able to outpace as well as overpower Goku who was using Instant Transmission. Silver Surfer excels in travel speed does he excel in combat or reaction speed? Beings like Thanos, Thor and Nova are even able to react to him and perceive him at different moments in time in regards to when he is about to launch an attack. Also other than his classic showings what has he done so significant recently that would suggest that he would be able to do such things?

In the Unilord example, he used Uni-Lord's own power against him, against Tenebrous and Aegis he was channeling the Crunch (which again, are the energies of creation) - the energy that birthed them. In less you think KI is particularly hard to manipulate for a character of the Surfer's ability, I honestly have no idea why Bills own power won't simply become a boon for the Silver Surfer to blast him back with at tremendously more potent levels. If it was a 100% he would have turned to stone like he did against Buu.

What I find hilarious is this talk about "galaxy" or "solar system" level durabiltiy when Bills doesn't tank anything of that magnitude in his appearance. The Surfer? He was riding out the "Herald my rage!" attack that clear Annihilus' forces out of the galaxy and even decades ago was riding super-novas Solar System to Solar System for kicks. The character these days arguably doesn't even need to have a physical body to exist and can stand up to reality warpers trying to change him into a normal man, as well as went mono-e-mono with two primordeal gods and Uni-Lord. Proof of Bills' MFTL combat speed?

Nova was able to react to the Silver Surfer?

Nova couldn't even see the Silver Surfer initially attacking him, much-less react to him.

There "fight" was one where the Surfer dominated, even while he was putting on a show for Galactus.

Thanos has spotted the Surfer hauling his rear at hundreds of times the speed of light while beating on Captain America. Not to mention cheap-shotted him in the much loved to abused scene where he kills him. Thor's been shown on more than one occasion, especially when fighting characters of the Surfer's caliber - to be able to move very fast. Namely why the latter fight consisted of Thor appearing as one massive cape streaking across the field. The Surfer's gotten a lot more powerful than he was decades ago.

Has been blow into oblivion before? Bills could also target his pressure points and weaken him. Bills has the better fighting ability and experience, he`s taken down beings who are fighting geniuses with zero effort and he tanked their destructive attacks with no scratch so what attack would Silver Surfer be able to produce that would be able to harm or put down Bills exactly? Silver Surfer has great power when it comes to versatility but I`m not so sure if he would be able to wipe out a solar system or galaxy for that matter, Bills on the other hand can.

It doesn`t change the fact that the actual heart virus itself is unknown in nature and that was Goku in the earlier parts of the series not during the later parts where he improves dramatically in all aspects. This heart virus does not have to be magical, the point is that we do not know the actual dangers of this heart virus other than Saiyans are susceptible to it and it was spreading rapidly having deadly effects we do not know the actual origin or where it originated from.

Blown into what? Pressure points? This is becoming a bizarre argument. Point out to me the pressure points he can exploit:

Uni-lord was cutting him into dozens of pieces and he was literally fine by the next page. This whole pressure point thing doesn't exist outside the Panther Armbar fiasco where he also apparently is sporting a wind-pipe. This argument is getting ridiculous, given Bills has yet to do anything close to what you're arguing he can do and under the same concept of an argument we could go down the route of the Silver Surfer being able to take on abstracts given his actual record in fights.

I have read the entire synopsis and I know what happens in the film based on spoilers so it does make sense actually and the movie has been released for officially 2 days now so I am not disobeying the rules either in regards to waiting for the film to be released concrete information has been released and revealed the entire film will leak very soon but it doesn`t mean we can`t make arguments on Bills` behalf.
Knocked back by Mjonir, I don`t even believe Thor has FTL reflexes or combat speed he is very sluggish and slow when it comes to fighting or brawling. Silver Surfer is extremely fast when it comes to travel speed but I don`t think he is that fast when it comes to combat speed.

Like I said, not having even seen the film, yet arguing relentlessly how awesomely powerful a character is based of a synopsis you read doesn't sound very good in an argument. Every clip I've been able to see thus far shows Bills more or less doing what every other villain has done in the series, nothing cosmic or of anything I should be blown away with.

Mjolnir can hurt abstracts and Skyfathers - it being able to knock the Silver Surfer off his board isn't a big deal. It has also been pointed out on multiple cases to be capable of being thrown faster than light - even as recently mentioned in Avengers vs X-MEN to being hurled at FTL speeds. Thor himself has spent the last few decades knocking blasts of energy clear out of his way, he in no shape or form is slow and sluggish against anyone that isn't named the Hulk.

Terrax is a great threat and is extremely powerful but I`m just curious, does he have MFTL combat speed or reaction time?

Now many would argue about the fact that Rulk is a PIS machine and he is terribly written by Jeph Loeb however the point I am trying to convey is that Silver Surfer like Superman suffers in regards to feats as they seem to be all over the place due to the different writers within Marvel who change things around or have something occur that contradicts with something else that had occurred in another story. Without the surfboard and his cosmic energy which Rulk absorbed he was easily depowered or powered down and he fell to Rulk pretty fast considering the situation, Bills is MFTL in combat speed when holding back and Goku even with his SSJG power barely managed to absorb or resist Bills God of Destruction Energy Sphere which threatened to destroy the earth and Bills was not even using his absolute max power.

A few things to mention: Not the actual 616 Silver Surfer. That Silver Surfer had his powers for about an hour. Terrax has cut planets in half effortlessly with his axe and inevitably loses to said Silver Surfer. Rulk strolls into to steal his powers after being exhausted with the fight with Terrax. Rulk does this through his own magic plot powers to absorb power. I want to emphasize again, this isn't the Silver Surfer being discussed and Rulk strolled up to him while he couldn't even defend himself.

Bills stomps every single one of the Z Fighters with zero effort including Ultimate Gohan and he did this without using any real power up, he attacked them lightly within their critical points and had them demolished. Bills also stomped Majin Buu with his kiai which is the aura that surrounds DBZ characters and Goku has used kiai before too as a way to destroy things and force back his enemies. Also Akira Toriyama confirmed that ki is an important factor along with ki control and Bills>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Goku in all aspects, his kiai would force back the Silver Surfer which ultimately means that Bills wouldn`t even have to touch the Silver Surfer he would just utilize his kiai and it would act as a method of telekinesis, this barrier of kiai could protect Bills from the Silver Surfer`s incoming attacks or assaults.

He absolutely destroyed Goku who was in SSJ3 form and notice how he appears right before Goku as he then proceeds to using a simple and seemingly harmless finger flick to send him borrowing down King Kai`s planet which is a lot more durable than Earth, 1:44 - 1:48. He even stopped Goku`s attacks with no real effort and he also did this without the need to see where the attack was coming from.

I could careless about the defeating of the Z-Fighters that happens almost every time a new villain is rolled out. KI isn't going to suddenly prevent the Surfer from using his powers offensively, if anything it will only serve to enhance his own power.

A lot more durable than the Earth? Don't kid yourself, it is a fragment of the size and doesn't even sport an iron core. It is essentially a floating ball of dirt and grass sporting more gravity than the Earth - as it is a magic ball of dust and grass. Trying to argue being thrown through it is a big feat is ridiculous. The Surfer beat senseless a character that was smashed halfway through the planet and then had a planet buster thrown right in his face. The Surfer dropped this guy with his fists.

Vegeta`s attack which he concentrated on Bills should be>>>>>>>>>>>>Final Flash since he immediately powered down and the attack was able to gain attention from across the world, when he unleashed Final Flash against Perfect Cell he concentrated the attack and the attack threatened to destroy the planet but he did not power down at all, when he used this ki attack against Bills he powered down completely right after and it consumed 100% of his ki energy, this attack is way above planetary level. Also this blast came from a bloodlusted and angry Vegeta who saw Bulma get slapped by Bills and he charged at him being motivated within those moments he temporarily surpassed Goku but even his efforts did not pay off and he was easily knocked out by a simple touch by Bills.

Goku was able to hold back Final Form Frieza`s ultimate attack which he used to destroy planet Vegeta which is 10x the size and mass of earth. Frieza was in his first form and had a PL of 530,000 yet he was able to destroy Planet Vegeta with less than 1% of his power, Goku is able to hold back or repel a far more powerful version of this same attack but he struggles to hold off against Bills attack even when receiving a boost in power from Ultimate Gohan, Vegeta, Goten, Trunks and Pan.

Skip to 0:45 of the second video, Goku is able to hold back Final Form Frieza`s most powerful attack and this is him in SSJ1 form yet he struggles even while in SSJG form after absorbing Bills God of Destruction Energy Sphere he becomes exhausted as he can no longer fight and this is Bills holding back 30% of his real actual power its like he was testing Goku because even throughout the fight he was asking Goku questions and seemed to want to push him, Goku was using his absolute true power yet he loses to a depowered and weaker Bills who isn`t using his true power, he was holding back a huge portion yet he was able to fight at MFTL speeds, tank supernova+++attacks and outpace Instant Transmission. Goku decides to give up and this Goku going all out against a Bills who restrained 30% of his overall true power he did not go all out at all yet he managed to easily overpower Goku and convince him to say give up, Goku absorbed the attack while in SSJG form but he was left in a state where he was unable to fight and also Bills brings more clarification on the DBZ universe which is now a multiverse and I explain why that is important.

This is important because it could mean that the movies although canon may hold some form of significance to the world of DB due to the fact that Akira makes mention of them himself and here is what he has to say about them.

Vegeta cleaved right through Cell like butter, but was exhausted by his own attack. Here he does the same thing, great durability feat for Bills - but only in the sense he is more durable than Cell - which isn't saying much. Power levels aren't worth mentioning as they are made up numbers that only tell you X is stronger than Y.

Fan conjecture that doesn't even matter in terms of a multiverse.

This means they are alternative realities this would include GT and it also means that there is many possibilities that occur within these other 11 universes and Broly as shown in his first appearance destroyed a galaxy in his weaker form. This is not a mere galaxy but rather a quadrant of the universe and Bills>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Broly in overall power he would be able to destroy a galaxy as well. Many like to say that it was sped up or not described properly even when all versions of the translations ultimately point to the same thing, Broly did destroy the galaxy and the writers of the movie obviously had that scene there in the beginning of the movie for a reason. Even if there are to be 200 million planets left it wouldn`t mean that the galaxy wasn`t destroyed and Bills could do this if he wanted to in no time and he probably has considering the fact that he keeps balance throughout the entire universe, he is the God of Destruction for the Seventh Universe. Omega Shenron from GT and Hirudegarn from Wrath of the Dragon were described as being Gods of Destruction which furthers this point about them possibly being in relation to what Bills had talked about in regards to there being twelve universe in total which points to the fact that DB characters will only become more powerful and it furthers the idea of these other existing forms of media having some type of tie within the entire situation itself but from alternative realities or dimensions.

When Super Buuhan went berserk he was affecting things within the world which extended to Other World and etc. Things on a dimensional and space level were having rifts broken down all around, also Super Buuhan even was able to create a barrier which had a lot of destructive force yet Vegito is able to overpower it, and this same destruction force is capable of destroying the universe due to all of the rifts being formed from this energy sphere and if Vegito still was able to overpower or repel it with his own ki energy. This is taken from the official Daizenshuu and the following information from the Daizenshuu will shed further light on this fact. For the video skip to 11:35 and watch from there to 13:00.

There is nothing here you can use in a debate, assumptions up the wazoo isn't debate worthy. Bills does none of this.

@neongamewave said:

These handbooks or guidebooks are officially approved and written by Akira Toriyama himself so all information is 100% confirmed as well as 100% confirmed as credible.

It is also confirmed that Bills is>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Super Buhaan and Vegito in all aspects of power as well as fighting ability.

So I don`t think Silver Surfer would be able to defeat Bills who is utilizing 100% of his absolute power. In his weakest state or form, Bills would be able to wipe out the entire solar system in an instant also he had to hold back 30% of his power to make it fair for Goku and he was being generous but he still managed to perform feats such as battling at MFTL speeds, outpacing IT and overwhelming Goku as well as generating Earth shattering shockwaves while battling pretty lightly now his Silver Surfer supposed to deal with Bills who is going at 100% when with 70% he was able to do the things that I have mentioned? What is the other 30% that Bills kept within himself? If he unleashed that power he would have Goku killed and annihilated in an instant, to top it off, Bills is a god who has been around for eons since the time of the Supreme Kais who create life within the universe and he instills fear in all of them, he has been destroying stars, planets and etc for many eras, he definitely has been destroying galaxies in his time.

Officially said by King Kai throughout the beginning of the fim: King Kai then explains that there are gods who give birth to life-forms and worlds but in contrast to them there are gods who maintain balance by destroying these things, the aptly named God of Destruction.

At Bills' temple, alarm bombs are exploding, but the God of Destruction continues his 39 year long slumber. His attendant,Whis, insists that he awake now and threatens to perform an "awakening song" if he does not arise. Terrified, Bills shoots awake and proceeds to slide down from his bed atop a floating rock. Bills, who is cranky having woken up much earlier then before, is reminded by Whis that he was the one that set this as the time of his next awakening, and is then questioned about his wanting to be woken so early. Bills, now cleaning his fur, states that he was concerned about something in this era.

A lot of this has absolutely nothing to do with why the Silver Surfer can't beat Bills in an argument. This whole argument is reaching levels of pure silliness since we haven't even seen the film and you're going on and on about how he could easily destroy a solar system, which in all honest is a small fish in terms of Galactic Destruction. Broly is still more powerful than Bills is here. Assumptions abound!

The Supreme Kais can create stars and world as they are opposing force to the Gods of Destruction who destroy forms of life whether it be stars, worlds, planets and etc.

Now this is Bills` God of Destruction Energy Sphere and this attack easily>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Final Form Frieza`s Supernova attack. Goku barely held this attack back even when he tapped into the power of his SSJG form he still was left exhausted after absorbing the attack and he was out of energy remember this is Bills holding back his true power which is kept within a great percentage of 30% in regards to his overall power.

Also this film is canon and takes place several years after the Buu Saga, Vegeta and Goku were training also as shown in the beginning of the film they are improving since their fight against Majin Buu and by the end of Z they would easily be Solar System Busters themselves. Perfect Cell alone would be a Solar System Buster and I explained why in previous pages why it is the case. Bills still is>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>all of the Z characters even after they received their training and power ups this proves why Bills would be a galaxy buster.

Even Kid Buu like I said before was going around easily destroying hundreds of worlds and threatening the universe, the Supreme Kais who govern the different Quadrants of the Universe viewed him as a universal threat and this is said by Akira Toriyama himself.

Bills at 0% would still be>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Kid Buu and also notice how Kid Buu even manipulates the structure of his ki attack when destroying the Earth through ki control as said by Akira Toriyama himself.

Bills has been around far longer and has destroyed planets far longer than Kid Buu has, he easily could destroy a galaxy if he wanted to and he has been balancing out the entire universe so he has been traversing around the entire universe destroying all types of planets, worlds and stars.

Out of all the many gods in the universe, Bills is the most feared. He is feared even by Kais and Supreme Kais. As a God of Destruction, he was once tasked with maintaining balance in the universe. Bills is the God of Destruction of the Seventh Universe, and his administrative zone include planet Earth. He slumbers for several years to several decades straight, and he destroys planets of his administrative zone during the few years when he is awake. This is because destruction is required in order to create new planets, but he does not act on Supreme Kais' orders; the God of Destruction destroys according to his own individual judgment. Also, because he is capricious, he destroys even important planets without a second thought. When he finds it bothersome, he lets someone else act as an agent of destruction. While he is awake, tense days for the Supreme Kai continue, as nobody knows how many planets will be sacrificed.

The Supreme Kais once ruled over the entire universe (Other World and living world), with the Grand Supreme Kai overseeing them (the same way that the regular Kais rule over their individual quadrants of the living world, with a Grand Kai in charge of the four of them). They are the Gods of Creation (Sozoshin) who provide the catalyst for life and planets to be born, as opposed to the Gods of Destruction who destroy life and planets, which maintains the balance of the universe. Supreme Kai are able to provide the impetus for planets to be born; also, they will sometimes divide up one planet and increase the number of planets. They even do things like create life-forms, or transplant them from another planet, but their basic job is to watch over the numerous planets.

You're reaching past conjecture and are not even making sense at this point. At 0, your are 0. Wiki entries FTW I guess.

Silver Surfer likely still stomps.

#158 Posted by 18hunt (2945 posts) - - Show Bio

Not SS that's BS!

#159 Edited by MisterShin (228 posts) - - Show Bio

I dunno if this has been mentioned here or not, but oh well.

Birusu has shown the following visually in the movie, some clips can be found online: Matter Manipulation, MFTL speed (travels across galaxies to destroy celestial bodies Stars, planets etc when he can be bothered), tanks Goku & Vegeta's strongest Ki attacks. Birusu has Godly Ki, which is different from normal Ki.

I dunno who wins tho.

#160 Edited by Supermansito (197 posts) - - Show Bio

Bills wins

#161 Posted by Theorder14 (1575 posts) - - Show Bio

well, we will have to see the movie first b4 we can judge >.>

#162 Posted by Walzo (4355 posts) - - Show Bio

Bills wins

SS Wins.

See how absolutely useless that statement is?

#163 Edited by NeonGameWave (8005 posts) - - Show Bio

@isaac_clarke said:

@neongamewave said:

The point was that the attack or attempt itself was ineffective, he was protected from being transmuted thanks to his ki level which surpasses Super Buuhan`s and Bills` ki>>>>>>>>>>>>Vegito`s and Super Buhaan`s. Ki is the distributive factor for feats with DBZ as confirmed and implied by Akira Toriyama himself. Has Silver Surfer ever performed this ability on different types of beings before instead of non living things? Also there is no proof to suggest that it would work on Bills more effectively than Majin Buu`s transmutation working on Vegito or Silver Surfer`s ability to transmute through cosmic working on celestial bodies.

That is very impressive but it doesn`t mean he could change the atomic structure of Bills assuming that he would be able to catch him to begin with and the difference with Thor and etc is that Bills has actually shown resistance to transmutation, Bills` anatomy and body structure is very different in comparison to many of the lesser beings. My point is has Silver Surfer ever used it before on these types of beings and if its so effective why doesn`t he use it on these types of beings during a fight other than CIS or PIS?

Since when has KI done anything to prevent their atomic structure from being played with? You're completely making this up. This instance with Vegito isn't the only red flag - when in Fat Buu's case he was also turned into a cookie yet found himself completely normal inside Buu after being consumed. Every actual example of the candy / snack-beam has yet to say otherwise when we keep seeing cases where the individual is clearly not just a piece of candy.

The Surfer's turned people to stone and has atomized people for less. The latter being his more recent stuff in Defenders:

Outside that we've seen the character synthesize Odin Power, play with the atomic structure worlds and what have you. There is hardly anything outside purple skin and a feline appearance to seperate him from any other humanoid in the DBU in physical appearance - simply out - you really don't have anything here worth mentioning in the atomic structure manipulation department for Bills outside the candy-beam which has this very clear limitation on anyone that can fly - they don't become candy.

@neongamewave said:
He defeated those gods by using some type of power up, right? Also like I said Bills can destroy galaxies and solar systems also he did not use his max power when fighting Goku. Also my point is that Silver Surfer has never tanked a galaxy leveling attack before so if Bills fires off an attack of that level he wouldn`t be able to survive it. Also like I said Bills created shockwaves and sent Goku flying across the world by only delivering pretty light blows not critical ones and none of Goku`s attacks were able to put down Bills by much. Vegeta`s attack that is composed 100% of his ki energy was unable to leave a scratch on Bills.

No it isn`t, also notice the other translation where it says in no time at all meaning it would be instantly destroyed and also that is Bills not utilizing his true power. Silver Surfer does not have galaxy leveling durability neither does he have solar system durability and weaker attacks have caused problems for him before. Bills is MFTL in combat speed and travel speed while holding back his true power so imagine how much faster he would be if were to go all out and Bills also was able to outpace as well as overpower Goku who was using Instant Transmission. Silver Surfer excels in travel speed does he excel in combat or reaction speed? Beings like Thanos, Thor and Nova are even able to react to him and perceive him at different moments in time in regards to when he is about to launch an attack. Also other than his classic showings what has he done so significant recently that would suggest that he would be able to do such things?

In the Unilord example, he used Uni-Lord's own power against him, against Tenebrous and Aegis he was channeling the Crunch (which again, are the energies of creation) - the energy that birthed them. In less you think KI is particularly hard to manipulate for a character of the Surfer's ability, I honestly have no idea why Bills own power won't simply become a boon for the Silver Surfer to blast him back with at tremendously more potent levels. If it was a 100% he would have turned to stone like he did against Buu.

What I find hilarious is this talk about "galaxy" or "solar system" level durabiltiy when Bills doesn't tank anything of that magnitude in his appearance. The Surfer? He was riding out the "Herald my rage!" attack that clear Annihilus' forces out of the galaxy and even decades ago was riding super-novas Solar System to Solar System for kicks. The character these days arguably doesn't even need to have a physical body to exist and can stand up to reality warpers trying to change him into a normal man, as well as went mono-e-mono with two primordeal gods and Uni-Lord. Proof of Bills' MFTL combat speed?

Nova was able to react to the Silver Surfer?

Nova couldn't even see the Silver Surfer initially attacking him, much-less react to him.

There "fight" was one where the Surfer dominated, even while he was putting on a show for Galactus.

Thanos has spotted the Surfer hauling his rear at hundreds of times the speed of light while beating on Captain America. Not to mention cheap-shotted him in the much loved to abused scene where he kills him. Thor's been shown on more than one occasion, especially when fighting characters of the Surfer's caliber - to be able to move very fast. Namely why the latter fight consisted of Thor appearing as one massive cape streaking across the field. The Surfer's gotten a lot more powerful than he was decades ago.

@neongamewave said:
Has been blow into oblivion before? Bills could also target his pressure points and weaken him. Bills has the better fighting ability and experience, he`s taken down beings who are fighting geniuses with zero effort and he tanked their destructive attacks with no scratch so what attack would Silver Surfer be able to produce that would be able to harm or put down Bills exactly? Silver Surfer has great power when it comes to versatility but I`m not so sure if he would be able to wipe out a solar system or galaxy for that matter, Bills on the other hand can.

It doesn`t change the fact that the actual heart virus itself is unknown in nature and that was Goku in the earlier parts of the series not during the later parts where he improves dramatically in all aspects. This heart virus does not have to be magical, the point is that we do not know the actual dangers of this heart virus other than Saiyans are susceptible to it and it was spreading rapidly having deadly effects we do not know the actual origin or where it originated from.

Blown into what? Pressure points? This is becoming a bizarre argument. Point out to me the pressure points he can exploit:

Uni-lord was cutting him into dozens of pieces and he was literally fine by the next page. This whole pressure point thing doesn't exist outside the Panther Armbar fiasco where he also apparently is sporting a wind-pipe. This argument is getting ridiculous, given Bills has yet to do anything close to what you're arguing he can do and under the same concept of an argument we could go down the route of the Silver Surfer being able to take on abstracts given his actual record in fights.

@neongamewave said:
I have read the entire synopsis and I know what happens in the film based on spoilers so it does make sense actually and the movie has been released for officially 2 days now so I am not disobeying the rules either in regards to waiting for the film to be released concrete information has been released and revealed the entire film will leak very soon but it doesn`t mean we can`t make arguments on Bills` behalf.
Knocked back by Mjonir, I don`t even believe Thor has FTL reflexes or combat speed he is very sluggish and slow when it comes to fighting or brawling. Silver Surfer is extremely fast when it comes to travel speed but I don`t think he is that fast when it comes to combat speed.

Like I said, not having even seen the film, yet arguing relentlessly how awesomely powerful a character is based of a synopsis you read doesn't sound very good in an argument. Every clip I've been able to see thus far shows Bills more or less doing what every other villain has done in the series, nothing cosmic or of anything I should be blown away with.

Mjolnir can hurt abstracts and Skyfathers - it being able to knock the Silver Surfer off his board isn't a big deal. It has also been pointed out on multiple cases to be capable of being thrown faster than light - even as recently mentioned in Avengers vs X-MEN to being hurled at FTL speeds. Thor himself has spent the last few decades knocking blasts of energy clear out of his way, he in no shape or form is slow and sluggish against anyone that isn't named the Hulk.

@neongamewave said:

Terrax is a great threat and is extremely powerful but I`m just curious, does he have MFTL combat speed or reaction time?

Now many would argue about the fact that Rulk is a PIS machine and he is terribly written by Jeph Loeb however the point I am trying to convey is that Silver Surfer like Superman suffers in regards to feats as they seem to be all over the place due to the different writers within Marvel who change things around or have something occur that contradicts with something else that had occurred in another story. Without the surfboard and his cosmic energy which Rulk absorbed he was easily depowered or powered down and he fell to Rulk pretty fast considering the situation, Bills is MFTL in combat speed when holding back and Goku even with his SSJG power barely managed to absorb or resist Bills God of Destruction Energy Sphere which threatened to destroy the earth and Bills was not even using his absolute max power.

A few things to mention: Not the actual 616 Silver Surfer. That Silver Surfer had his powers for about an hour. Terrax has cut planets in half effortlessly with his axe and inevitably loses to said Silver Surfer. Rulk strolls into to steal his powers after being exhausted with the fight with Terrax. Rulk does this through his own magic plot powers to absorb power. I want to emphasize again, this isn't the Silver Surfer being discussed and Rulk strolled up to him while he couldn't even defend himself.

@neongamewave said:

Bills stomps every single one of the Z Fighters with zero effort including Ultimate Gohan and he did this without using any real power up, he attacked them lightly within their critical points and had them demolished. Bills also stomped Majin Buu with his kiai which is the aura that surrounds DBZ characters and Goku has used kiai before too as a way to destroy things and force back his enemies. Also Akira Toriyama confirmed that ki is an important factor along with ki control and Bills>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Goku in all aspects, his kiai would force back the Silver Surfer which ultimately means that Bills wouldn`t even have to touch the Silver Surfer he would just utilize his kiai and it would act as a method of telekinesis, this barrier of kiai could protect Bills from the Silver Surfer`s incoming attacks or assaults.

He absolutely destroyed Goku who was in SSJ3 form and notice how he appears right before Goku as he then proceeds to using a simple and seemingly harmless finger flick to send him borrowing down King Kai`s planet which is a lot more durable than Earth, 1:44 - 1:48. He even stopped Goku`s attacks with no real effort and he also did this without the need to see where the attack was coming from.

I could careless about the defeating of the Z-Fighters that happens almost every time a new villain is rolled out. KI isn't going to suddenly prevent the Surfer from using his powers offensively, if anything it will only serve to enhance his own power.

A lot more durable than the Earth? Don't kid yourself, it is a fragment of the size and doesn't even sport an iron core. It is essentially a floating ball of dirt and grass sporting more gravity than the Earth - as it is a magic ball of dust and grass. Trying to argue being thrown through it is a big feat is ridiculous. The Surfer beat senseless a character that was smashed halfway through the planet and then had a planet buster thrown right in his face. The Surfer dropped this guy with his fists.

@neongamewave said:

Vegeta`s attack which he concentrated on Bills should be>>>>>>>>>>>>Final Flash since he immediately powered down and the attack was able to gain attention from across the world, when he unleashed Final Flash against Perfect Cell he concentrated the attack and the attack threatened to destroy the planet but he did not power down at all, when he used this ki attack against Bills he powered down completely right after and it consumed 100% of his ki energy, this attack is way above planetary level. Also this blast came from a bloodlusted and angry Vegeta who saw Bulma get slapped by Bills and he charged at him being motivated within those moments he temporarily surpassed Goku but even his efforts did not pay off and he was easily knocked out by a simple touch by Bills.

Goku was able to hold back Final Form Frieza`s ultimate attack which he used to destroy planet Vegeta which is 10x the size and mass of earth. Frieza was in his first form and had a PL of 530,000 yet he was able to destroy Planet Vegeta with less than 1% of his power, Goku is able to hold back or repel a far more powerful version of this same attack but he struggles to hold off against Bills attack even when receiving a boost in power from Ultimate Gohan, Vegeta, Goten, Trunks and Pan.

Skip to 0:45 of the second video, Goku is able to hold back Final Form Frieza`s most powerful attack and this is him in SSJ1 form yet he struggles even while in SSJG form after absorbing Bills God of Destruction Energy Sphere he becomes exhausted as he can no longer fight and this is Bills holding back 30% of his real actual power its like he was testing Goku because even throughout the fight he was asking Goku questions and seemed to want to push him, Goku was using his absolute true power yet he loses to a depowered and weaker Bills who isn`t using his true power, he was holding back a huge portion yet he was able to fight at MFTL speeds, tank supernova+++attacks and outpace Instant Transmission. Goku decides to give up and this Goku going all out against a Bills who restrained 30% of his overall true power he did not go all out at all yet he managed to easily overpower Goku and convince him to say give up, Goku absorbed the attack while in SSJG form but he was left in a state where he was unable to fight and also Bills brings more clarification on the DBZ universe which is now a multiverse and I explain why that is important.

This is important because it could mean that the movies although canon may hold some form of significance to the world of DB due to the fact that Akira makes mention of them himself and here is what he has to say about them.

Vegeta cleaved right through Cell like butter, but was exhausted by his own attack. Here he does the same thing, great durability feat for Bills - but only in the sense he is more durable than Cell - which isn't saying much. Power levels aren't worth mentioning as they are made up numbers that only tell you X is stronger than Y.

Fan conjecture that doesn't even matter in terms of a multiverse.

@neongamewave said:

This means they are alternative realities this would include GT and it also means that there is many possibilities that occur within these other 11 universes and Broly as shown in his first appearance destroyed a galaxy in his weaker form. This is not a mere galaxy but rather a quadrant of the universe and Bills>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Broly in overall power he would be able to destroy a galaxy as well. Many like to say that it was sped up or not described properly even when all versions of the translations ultimately point to the same thing, Broly did destroy the galaxy and the writers of the movie obviously had that scene there in the beginning of the movie for a reason. Even if there are to be 200 million planets left it wouldn`t mean that the galaxy wasn`t destroyed and Bills could do this if he wanted to in no time and he probably has considering the fact that he keeps balance throughout the entire universe, he is the God of Destruction for the Seventh Universe. Omega Shenron from GT and Hirudegarn from Wrath of the Dragon were described as being Gods of Destruction which furthers this point about them possibly being in relation to what Bills had talked about in regards to there being twelve universe in total which points to the fact that DB characters will only become more powerful and it furthers the idea of these other existing forms of media having some type of tie within the entire situation itself but from alternative realities or dimensions.

When Super Buuhan went berserk he was affecting things within the world which extended to Other World and etc. Things on a dimensional and space level were having rifts broken down all around, also Super Buuhan even was able to create a barrier which had a lot of destructive force yet Vegito is able to overpower it, and this same destruction force is capable of destroying the universe due to all of the rifts being formed from this energy sphere and if Vegito still was able to overpower or repel it with his own ki energy. This is taken from the official Daizenshuu and the following information from the Daizenshuu will shed further light on this fact. For the video skip to 11:35 and watch from there to 13:00.

There is nothing here you can use in a debate, assumptions up the wazoo isn't debate worthy. Bills does none of this.

@neongamewave said:

These handbooks or guidebooks are officially approved and written by Akira Toriyama himself so all information is 100% confirmed as well as 100% confirmed as credible.

It is also confirmed that Bills is>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Super Buhaan and Vegito in all aspects of power as well as fighting ability.

So I don`t think Silver Surfer would be able to defeat Bills who is utilizing 100% of his absolute power. In his weakest state or form, Bills would be able to wipe out the entire solar system in an instant also he had to hold back 30% of his power to make it fair for Goku and he was being generous but he still managed to perform feats such as battling at MFTL speeds, outpacing IT and overwhelming Goku as well as generating Earth shattering shockwaves while battling pretty lightly now his Silver Surfer supposed to deal with Bills who is going at 100% when with 70% he was able to do the things that I have mentioned? What is the other 30% that Bills kept within himself? If he unleashed that power he would have Goku killed and annihilated in an instant, to top it off, Bills is a god who has been around for eons since the time of the Supreme Kais who create life within the universe and he instills fear in all of them, he has been destroying stars, planets and etc for many eras, he definitely has been destroying galaxies in his time.

Officially said by King Kai throughout the beginning of the fim: King Kai then explains that there are gods who give birth to life-forms and worlds but in contrast to them there are gods who maintain balance by destroying these things, the aptly named God of Destruction.

At Bills' temple, alarm bombs are exploding, but the God of Destruction continues his 39 year long slumber. His attendant,Whis, insists that he awake now and threatens to perform an "awakening song" if he does not arise. Terrified, Bills shoots awake and proceeds to slide down from his bed atop a floating rock. Bills, who is cranky having woken up much earlier then before, is reminded by Whis that he was the one that set this as the time of his next awakening, and is then questioned about his wanting to be woken so early. Bills, now cleaning his fur, states that he was concerned about something in this era.

A lot of this has absolutely nothing to do with why the Silver Surfer can't beat Bills in an argument. This whole argument is reaching levels of pure silliness since we haven't even seen the film and you're going on and on about how he could easily destroy a solar system, which in all honest is a small fish in terms of Galactic Destruction. Broly is still more powerful than Bills is here. Assumptions abound!

@neongamewave said:

The Supreme Kais can create stars and world as they are opposing force to the Gods of Destruction who destroy forms of life whether it be stars, worlds, planets and etc.

Now this is Bills` God of Destruction Energy Sphere and this attack easily>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Final Form Frieza`s Supernova attack. Goku barely held this attack back even when he tapped into the power of his SSJG form he still was left exhausted after absorbing the attack and he was out of energy remember this is Bills holding back his true power which is kept within a great percentage of 30% in regards to his overall power.

Also this film is canon and takes place several years after the Buu Saga, Vegeta and Goku were training also as shown in the beginning of the film they are improving since their fight against Majin Buu and by the end of Z they would easily be Solar System Busters themselves. Perfect Cell alone would be a Solar System Buster and I explained why in previous pages why it is the case. Bills still is>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>all of the Z characters even after they received their training and power ups this proves why Bills would be a galaxy buster.

Even Kid Buu like I said before was going around easily destroying hundreds of worlds and threatening the universe, the Supreme Kais who govern the different Quadrants of the Universe viewed him as a universal threat and this is said by Akira Toriyama himself.

Bills at 0% would still be>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Kid Buu and also notice how Kid Buu even manipulates the structure of his ki attack when destroying the Earth through ki control as said by Akira Toriyama himself.

Bills has been around far longer and has destroyed planets far longer than Kid Buu has, he easily could destroy a galaxy if he wanted to and he has been balancing out the entire universe so he has been traversing around the entire universe destroying all types of planets, worlds and stars.

Out of all the many gods in the universe, Bills is the most feared. He is feared even by Kais and Supreme Kais. As a God of Destruction, he was once tasked with maintaining balance in the universe. Bills is the God of Destruction of the Seventh Universe, and his administrative zone include planet Earth. He slumbers for several years to several decades straight, and he destroys planets of his administrative zone during the few years when he is awake. This is because destruction is required in order to create new planets, but he does not act on Supreme Kais' orders; the God of Destruction destroys according to his own individual judgment. Also, because he is capricious, he destroys even important planets without a second thought. When he finds it bothersome, he lets someone else act as an agent of destruction. While he is awake, tense days for the Supreme Kai continue, as nobody knows how many planets will be sacrificed.

The Supreme Kais once ruled over the entire universe (Other World and living world), with the Grand Supreme Kai overseeing them (the same way that the regular Kais rule over their individual quadrants of the living world, with a Grand Kai in charge of the four of them). They are the Gods of Creation (Sozoshin) who provide the catalyst for life and planets to be born, as opposed to the Gods of Destruction who destroy life and planets, which maintains the balance of the universe. Supreme Kai are able to provide the impetus for planets to be born; also, they will sometimes divide up one planet and increase the number of planets. They even do things like create life-forms, or transplant them from another planet, but their basic job is to watch over the numerous planets.

You're reaching past conjecture and are not even making sense at this point. At 0, your are 0. Wiki entries FTW I guess.

Silver Surfer likely still stomps.

Notice how when the transmutation was used on others they were successfully transformed into candies yet when it was used on Bills or Vegito it did not work whatsoever, ki is the attributive factor as I have said. His entire structure was changed yet he still retained some of his power who`s not to say even if Silver Surfer had succeeded in changing his atomic structure that Bills wouldn`t be able to fight and will Silver Surfer be able to catch Bills anyway? Their forms change however your forgetting the point, their atomic structure was manipulated and altered as well as their genetic makeup and their appearances do change. Bills also has altered things with a form of kiai as evidently shown within the following video which is video 1. For the first video go to 0:47 and watch till 1:03 as you can see, Bills could alter inanimate objects also things that are not alive but your argument is probably going to be there is no proof that he could resist Silver Surfer`s transmutation and what Bills did was not very impressive. This is also proves the fact that ki or even kiai play a factor into everything, ask yourself this, why did Buu`s transmutation work on everybody else but it wasn`t able to work on Vegito? It changed him into something that was inanimate yet he was able to fight with the same strength he had while in his true form and your telling me ki does not play a factor into all of this? Even when the author and creator himself confirmed that ki has a role in everything Dragon Ball? Saiyans and other characters as well use types of shields and you can`t say just because had eaten them or absorbed them that it disapproves the idea of it being transmutation the fact is that Buu had successfully transmuted them in the first place. Power Levels became more so inaccurate after the events of when Frieza arrived, I remember Akira himself even said that Power Levels became pointless for the villains to scan them or measure their scale because of how high and powerful the PL have gotten its not just about Power Level its about Ki Control as well as stated by Akira here.

Q. What's the trick to winning battles [in the DB world]?

A. Toriyama says it all comes down to 'ki', the size of it and the ability to control it. He says it includes several forms: genki, yuuki & shouki (energy, bravery & true character). You can only train your muscles to a certain point, it's 'ki' that carries you beyond that and what helped Goku come closer to being the strongest warrior in the universe.

The synopsis is official and Bills actually has done some amazing things. He defeated a SSJG Goku who you claimed agave him trouble when Bills was only utilizing 70% of his overall power and he defeated all of the heroic characters with absolute ease. Its not like comics where your going to see galaxies and stars being destroyed sometimes for no good reason in context of the story, manga works differently as does its narrative. The synopsis is accurately translated and done by someone who has watched the movie in its first day premiere in Japan as well as someone who obviously speaks Japanese. Once the movie comes out in my opinion more will only be revealed its not like I`m debating Bills in regards to the movie not coming out yet in like 2 weeks or 3 months.

Silver Surfer has been forced back or damaged by energy attacks before and he might be able to manipulate some form of the ki energy but that is if he would be able to absorb it or understand the properties behind it. Its a life energy and Bills like I said is MFTL in combat, reaction and travel speed somewhere the Silver Surfer is lacking. He is also a combat genius if he realizes that his attacks are not affecting the Silver Surfer he would attack Silver Surfer physically and that attack you mentioned was not a galaxy busting one, you just said cleared armies did it wipe out a galaxy? I don`t think Silver Surfer can come back from nothingness and here is the proof in regards to Bills` speed. Goku couldn`t even keep up with Bills even he was using Instant Transmission which is faster than light speed and Bills as well as Whis crossed Snake Way as they reached Vegeta even during he was in telepathic contact with King Kai. Thor is not even close to being at these speeds in terms of reaction and combat speed also the difference is that Mjonir is FTL not MFTL, has Silver Surfer ever fought at MFTL speeds before?

Kaizenshuu - Vegeta is still off on his own training when Kaiō telepathically contacts him. After listening to what Kaiō has to say, Vegeta says he has heard of the God of Destruction, but he is not too worried that he is on his way to Earth. Kaiō warns that the Earth will be wiped out if they do not keep their hands off Birus, but Vegeta still does not care, at least not until Kaiō tells him that Birus took Super Saiyan 3 Goku down in just two blows. Vegeta rushes out and interrupts the party to warn everyone, but Birus is already there. Birus casually greets him, asking Vegeta if he remembers him. Vegeta recalls that when he was still little, his father King Vegeta treated Birus to a feast, but that Birus still used the King as a stepping stone at the time. Seeing Birus face-to-face, Vegeta can tell that Kaiō was not exaggerating; Birus is far too dangerous.

Kaizenshuu - Angered, Birus punches Goku hard in the gut, then sends him flying through West City with a ferocious kick. Goku stops himself mid-air, but before he can do anything Birus is already there and puts Goku in a headlock. Birus quickly whirls around him, kicks Goku off into a nearby forest, and gives chase. Not able to see them, Kame-Sen’nin and the others run over to a Capsule ship and fly off after the two. Goku and Birus continue exchanging blows in the forest, when Birus sends Goku flying with another kick to the face. Birus flies off after him and the two end up in a desert area with numerous rock formations surrounding them. Goku and Birus charge at each other and their punches collide, sending out an Earth-shattering shockwave. They pull away from each other and a trickle of blood falls from a cut on Goku’s cheek.

Bills tanked Vegeta`s ki blast which is Solar System level and he tanked SSJG Goku`s kamehameha which is above due to having the energies of Ultimate Gohan, Trunks, Goten, Vegeta and Pan. Bills has tanked these leveling blasts before and I already explained why in the previous posts which you clearly overlooked. The thing is Bills has done these things while restraining 30% of his overall power, none of these attacks were able to phase him or harm him greatly, just barely even a scratch so it is very impressive considering the fact that none of Silver Surfer`s energy beams have demonstrated galaxy busting or solar system busting power. Silver Surfer`s advantages and raw power lies within the fields of energy and matter manipulation also Goku in SSJG form is able to absorb ki and energies yet when he was trying to absorb Bills` energy he was left exhausted even when he tapped more into the SSJG power which is composed of Ultimate Gohan, Vegeta, Trunks, Goten and Pan. Now Vegeta, Ultimate Gohan and Gotenks would be well above planet busters they would easily be Solar System Busters and don`t forget that its composed of Goku`s SSJ3 form`s energy as well yet he couldn`t even hold back Bills` attack which is nothing compared to his real power which he toned down in order to test and be generous to Goku now tell me how is Silver Surfer going to deal with a Bills who is using 100% of his overall true power and who is ready to kill him in mere nanoseconds? Bills also has the better fighting ability so he would be able to come up with better strategies and he would exploit weaknesses or openings this is what DBZ characters are very good at, the key term would be combat and Bills far supersedes all of them in that category, he`s been trained by his master Whis and he has mastered martial arts as well as triumphed over fighting geniuses like Goku and Vegeta.

It doesn`t change the fact that they we were able to react to him and none of these characters are as fast as Bills. Thor in some cases may be shown to be fast but he is very slow especially when in comparing to Bills and Silver Surfer also did I forget to mention that when Bills was fighting at MFTL speeds he was holding back 30% of his true power?

Blown as in blown away into nothingness, an attack Bills could achieve at full power, attacks usually in DBZ affect things on the molecular level and with greater ki comes greater power, and Silver Surfer can be killed regardless if you believe he is more powerful now than he was before also I can see the scans in regards to the Uni Power events? Bills is the better fighter, something you clearly forgot he is the better tactician and is more skilled, he has used only light attacks on many in which he has them knocked out with no trouble at all and that`s him holding back. Now if at 70% he is able to fight at MFTL speeds, outpace IT and annihilate characters or even overpower them such as a SSJG Goku then imagine what he would be able to do at 100%, you are underestimating Bills. The only thing I would give Silver Surfer over Bills is the versatility advantage that is where he stomps Bills but Bills has him in combat speed and combat skill as well as combat ability, he is also more experienced.

At 2:45 - 2:57 he is able to take out a SSJ3 Goku by hitting him in his neck area and he did this by tapping him lightly.

At 0:27 - 0:29 he knocked out Piccolo with chopsticks.

At 1:06 - 1:13 he knocked out Vegeta with one simple touch.

Which is why I mentioned Jeph Loeb and Rulk`s character, I was only making a point about Silver Surfer in regards to his showings whether it be 616, Ultimate and etc. Silver Surfer obviously has the greater speed which is why I asked about Terrax` reaction and combat speed.

That argument doesn`t make any sense. Bills wrecked all of them with no effort, many of the other DBZ villains haven`t done that before he still defeated Goku who received a massive power boost, and also can you show me an instance where energy attacks haven`t harmed the Silver Surfer? Also Bills has kiai which I already explained as an invisible attack.

What? King Kai`s planet is more durable than the earth and you can`t judge it based on its size or appearance the fact is Bills just flicked Goku with his finger, he didn`t use his real power or any of his fists so your argument here doesn`t make sense either. Also Bills can easily produce attacks that are>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> earth busting ones. Show me Silver Surfer flicking someone with no ease with just a finger than we`ll discuss things on that level. Compare him to using his fists to a finger flick.

Really? Exhausted? The point is he did not convert back to base form and that was Vegeta during the Cell Saga, this movie takes place after the Buu Saga and as we both know Saiyans become more powerful once they train, Vegeta was training in this film also notice how the attack did not do anything to Bills` whatsoever. PL are important and so is ki both of these terms help distinguish Dragon Ball Z characters that attack was definitely>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>a planetary attack.

What? Broly is nowhere near Bills` level, I believe you are simply overlooking my points and dismissing them as fan conjecture, I`m proving why Bills is a galaxy buster. Broly in his LSSJ form defeated SSJ1 Goku, Vegeta and etc. Bills stomped SSJ3, SSJG and the rest of the Z Fighters with no effort at all. If he had used 100% of his real power he would of had them annihilated. And he was holding back 30% of his power now tell how Broly would be more powerful than him? And why are you bringing Galactus into this fight when it has nothing to do with him? Has Silver Surfer done those very things on his own accord and power? No, he hasn`t. Broly and the other points I made connect with Bills and DBZ in general.

Sources and References are applicable as you are not well aware, you ignored my kiai argument and combat reaction argument as well in regards to the Silver Surfer. Silver Surfer is one of my top favorite Marvel characters, I read a good deal of his comics although I may not be perfect I still know his character well enough and he is indeed a force to be reckoned with but it doesn`t mean you have to underestimate Bills and throw him in with the generalizations of DBZ, I think there is a form of bias that is coming forth from your arguments. If Bills had morals and couldn`t access his true power then that would be a different story but this character was easily able to overpower a SSJG Goku with only 70% and during this encounter was able to fight and move at MFTL speeds as well as get him to say give up in no time says something now how is Silver Surfer supposed to deal with this truly defined god character who is using 100% of his true power? Now imagine how fast and powerful he would be with that power. If Bills was very slow and couldn`t hold his own against a SSJG Goku then I would agree Silver Surfer would murder but that clearly wasn`t the case he is different from the rest of the DBZ villains and you assuming him to be the same is just plain silly, he actually defeats Goku with 30% of his power held back and he mopped the floor with all of the key main characters as well as traveled and fought at MFTL speeds while outpacing Instant Transmission itself.

Your being very biased, now I admit Silver Surfer would probably or most likely stomp SSJG Goku but he ain`t stomping Bills, Bills is going all out and if he was that dangerous when dealing with Goku with only 70% then at 100% he murders Silver Surfer and has him left in a wreck.

#164 Edited by NeonGameWave (8005 posts) - - Show Bio

@neongamewave: Red Hulk didn't beat 616 Surfer, he beat one from an alternate universe, and he had no idea what he was doing there.

Surfer has nanosecond reaction time and has MFTL travel speed.

Random question did you actually see the movie?

Which is why I mentioned Jeph Loeb and the instances regarding Rulk but you are correct. I was only making a point about the differentiation in feats in regards to Silver Surfer and Superman who have multiple showings or feats. There are many versions and these versions can sometimes seem to be contradictory.

Bills has MFTL combat speed and he was able to outpace Goku`s Instant Transmission which is above Light Speed also Bills was holding back 30% of his true power when in doing these things. Within this fight he is fighting at full power this is why I don`t think Silver Surfer would be able to win, Bills is skyfather level in my opinion. Silver Surfer is MFTL in travel speed not combat speed and reaction, see my point? That is why I asked isaac_clarke if he has MFTL combat speed.

I didn`t watch the movie but I read the official synopsis which was posted as well as confirmed by Kazenshuu and somebody who actually did the watch the movie had it accurately translated as well as watched it on the first day premiere. Once the movie debuts in the terms of a full showing for all to watch it would only reveal more in regards to what Bills can do and what he is capable of.

#165 Edited by Simon_the_digger (3091 posts) - - Show Bio
#167 Edited by alcoholbob (1192 posts) - - Show Bio

@ferdelance said:

Dragon Ball arguments used to be a 40 scan per post and was never really convincing, now it's just a some statements and even less convincing.

Every Z fan wishes they could argue like Superman fans, 1 word synonyms for stomp without posting any evidence.

#168 Posted by Walzo (4355 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't understand why this Purple Cat is being put against Silver Surfer.

Surfer has better reaction time, better speed, versatile powers, etc.

#169 Posted by Simon_the_digger (3091 posts) - - Show Bio
#170 Posted by uberhikari (2474 posts) - - Show Bio

So, after walls and walls and walls and walls and walls of text, what have we learned? Bills is clearly not a galaxy buster. Bills never busted a galaxy, Akira Toriyama never said Bills could bust a galaxy, and no databooks or handbooks say Bills can bust a galaxy.

#171 Posted by NeonGameWave (8005 posts) - - Show Bio
#172 Posted by King Saturn (224454 posts) - - Show Bio

I can't wait until it's all over again.

#173 Posted by Walzo (4355 posts) - - Show Bio

I can't wait until it's all over again.

Oh it won't ever be over :(

#174 Edited by OmgOmgWtfWtf (7040 posts) - - Show Bio

These big walls of text remind of Lance Bastro's tirades about how the Juggernaut was the strongest being in existence.

#175 Posted by Walzo (4355 posts) - - Show Bio

These big walls of text remind of Lance Bastro's tirades about how the Juggernaut was the strongest being in existence.

Oh god, don't remind me.

#176 Posted by dccomicsrule2011 (25556 posts) - - Show Bio

I can't wait until it's all over again.

Truth.

#177 Edited by OmgOmgWtfWtf (7040 posts) - - Show Bio
#178 Posted by dccomicsrule2011 (25556 posts) - - Show Bio
#179 Posted by OmgOmgWtfWtf (7040 posts) - - Show Bio

@dccomicsrule2011: I hope she kills Priscilla, but knowing how the story goes she most likely is going to lose to her T.T Can't wait for mangastream's translation in the next few days. I can't stand Mangapanda's broken translations lol.

#180 Posted by isaac_clarke (5448 posts) - - Show Bio

Notice how when the transmutation was used on others they were successfully transformed into candies yet when it was used on Bills or Vegito it did not work whatsoever, ki is the attributive factor as I have said. His entire structure was changed yet he still retained some of his power who`s not to say even if Silver Surfer had succeeded in changing his atomic structure that Bills wouldn`t be able to fight and will Silver Surfer be able to catch Bills anyway? Their forms change however your forgetting the point, their atomic structure was manipulated and altered as well as their genetic makeup and their appearances do change. Bills also has altered things with a form of kiai as evidently shown within the following video which is video 1. For the first video go to 0:47 and watch till 1:03 as you can see, Bills could alter inanimate objects also things that are not alive but your argument is probably going to be there is no proof that he could resist Silver Surfer`s transmutation and what Bills did was not very impressive. This is also proves the fact that ki or even kiai play a factor into everything, ask yourself this, why did Buu`s transmutation work on everybody else but it wasn`t able to work on Vegito? It changed him into something that was inanimate yet he was able to fight with the same strength he had while in his true form and your telling me ki does not play a factor into all of this? Even when the author and creator himself confirmed that ki has a role in everything Dragon Ball? Saiyans and other characters as well use types of shields and you can`t say just because had eaten them or absorbed them that it disapproves the idea of it being transmutation the fact is that Buu had successfully transmuted them in the first place.

Notice how it worked just fine on the character that implements the attack itself? How said character re-appears not as fragments of a cookie?

Not whatsoever? Are we just ignoring the part where he becomes a candy ball as some sort of justification that KI can now allow a user to survive his atoms being torn apart? No matter how you slice it, the beam doesn't seem to transmute anything - otherwise Vegito would have died from a lack of a brain, heart, lungs or any basic necessities to actually be alive. The fact Buu was in one piece inside kinda helps push this argument further along.

It looks like the oval he was holding was incinerated after touching it and it if is matter manipulation, it isn't very impressive matter manipulation. We could quite literally look at dozens of other examples with similar results when a character touches something and it burns to ash in-front of everyone.

Because Vegito wasn't a half-wit and adjusted to his new body. That heart virus must have had a ton of KI to kill Goku. I mean, Vegito could resist (or in this case not) being turned into candy, yet that virus was able to put down a Son Goku like nothing.

The synopsis is official and Bills actually has done some amazing things. He defeated a SSJG Goku who you claimed agave him trouble when Bills was only utilizing 70% of his overall power and he defeated all of the heroic characters with absolute ease. Its not like comics where your going to see galaxies and stars being destroyed sometimes for no good reason in context of the story, manga works differently as does its narrative. The synopsis is accurately translated and done by someone who has watched the movie in its first day premiere in Japan as well as someone who obviously speaks Japanese. Once the movie comes out in my opinion more will only be revealed its not like I`m debating Bills in regards to the movie not coming out yet in like 2 weeks or 3 months.

Its one thing to watch a movie, its another to read its synopsis and then roll an argument around a character based off that synopsis. Even expanding past what is actually done and trying to work around the fact the characters are quite literally repeating what they have been doing since saiyan saga.

We aren't even discussing Manga. We're talking about an animated film that has yet to be released, regardles comics and manga are more or less the same method of telling a narrative, pretending their different outside their intended audiences is silly. Maybe wait for the movie before you start muttering on about how he easily destroys solar systems or galaxies despite the lack of anything worthwhile to say that is the case? But I doubt it.

Silver Surfer has been forced back or damaged by energy attacks before and he might be able to manipulate some form of the ki energy but that is if he would be able to absorb it or understand the properties behind it. Its a life energy and Bills like I said is MFTL in combat, reaction and travel speed somewhere the Silver Surfer is lacking. He is also a combat genius if he realizes that his attacks are not affecting the Silver Surfer he would attack Silver Surfer physically and that attack you mentioned was not a galaxy busting one, you just said cleared armies did it wipe out a galaxy? I don`t think Silver Surfer can come back from nothingness and here is the proof in regards to Bills` speed. Goku couldn`t even keep up with Bills even he was using Instant Transmission which is faster than light speed and Bills as well as Whis crossed Snake Way as they reached Vegeta even during he was in telepathic contact with King Kai. Thor is not even close to being at these speeds in terms of reaction and combat speed also the difference is that Mjonir is FTL not MFTL, has Silver Surfer ever fought at MFTL speeds before?

Here's the thing. Goku can manipulate KI. Everyone in the cast can manipulate their KI. How does a character that has had no issues manipulating random energies for decades suddenly going to have issues with energy that for the most part normal biological organisms can bend to their will?

Show me Bill moving at MFTL. In ever clip thus far he is doing hardly any movement whatsoever and has gets tagged by EVERY character(with the exception of Tien and 18). It doesn't help that EVERY character can seemingly watch tentatively and know exactly whats going on. If they are all sporting FTL reaction times, the question becomes: When did Bulma get MFTL reaction times? Or Roshi? Or Krillin and the list goes on and on.

His travel speed isn't on the surfer's rader. Lets not kid ourselves, when Bills goes so fast he exits time and space, call me then. His genius is nothing compared to cosmic awareness, which was overwhelming the High Revolutionary at how much information the Surfer was exposed to from all of the cosmos. It was a galactic wide attack, if not multi-galactic according to Thanos Imperative. It obliterated the armies, as well as a Watcher that stuck around to watch. Was the galaxy still there? For the most part, yes it was since the intended target was the Wave.

How does Bills make him become "nothingness" prove that Bill is sufficiently powerful to damage the Surfer and maybe we can entertain an argument. Trashing the Z-Fighters isn't that kind of winning argument, especially when the biggest opponent he had was the guy who was absorbing his attacks. You know, the Surfer's main calling card against anyone blasting with energy that he doesn't tank.

Kaizenshuu - Vegeta is still off on his own training when Kaiō telepathically contacts him. After listening to what Kaiō has to say, Vegeta says he has heard of the God of Destruction, but he is not too worried that he is on his way to Earth. Kaiō warns that the Earth will be wiped out if they do not keep their hands off Birus, but Vegeta still does not care, at least not until Kaiō tells him that Birus took Super Saiyan 3 Goku down in just two blows. Vegeta rushes out and interrupts the party to warn everyone, but Birus is already there. Birus casually greets him, asking Vegeta if he remembers him. Vegeta recalls that when he was still little, his father King Vegeta treated Birus to a feast, but that Birus still used the King as a stepping stone at the time. Seeing Birus face-to-face, Vegeta can tell that Kaiō was not exaggerating; Birus is far too dangerous.

Kaizenshuu - Angered, Birus punches Goku hard in the gut, then sends him flying through West City with a ferocious kick. Goku stops himself mid-air, but before he can do anything Birus is already there and puts Goku in a headlock. Birus quickly whirls around him, kicks Goku off into a nearby forest, and gives chase. Not able to see them, Kame-Sen’nin and the others run over to a Capsule ship and fly off after the two. Goku and Birus continue exchanging blows in the forest, when Birus sends Goku flying with another kick to the face. Birus flies off after him and the two end up in a desert area with numerous rock formations surrounding them. Goku and Birus charge at each other and their punches collide, sending out an Earth-shattering shockwave. They pull away from each other and a trickle of blood falls from a cut on Goku’s cheek.

Where's the MFTL reaction speeds? Because I've already posted a scan of the Surfer flying around the globe with everyone frozen in place contemplating the entire scenario, being punched across the air doesn't quite seem as impressive. He'll the Surfer simply looking for a planet for Galactus to eat is a better feat than this thus far.

Bills tanked Vegeta`s ki blast which is Solar System level and he tanked SSJG Goku`s kamehameha which is above due to having the energies of Ultimate Gohan, Trunks, Goten, Vegeta and Pan. Bills has tanked these leveling blasts before and I already explained why in the previous posts which you clearly overlooked.

Absolutely no proof whatsoever to say this. Your entire argument is more or less assumptions at how powerful these characters are. No substance.

Kaizenshuu - Vegeta is still off on his own training when Kaiō telepathically contacts him. After listening to what Kaiō has to say, Vegeta says he has heard of the God of Destruction, but he is not too worried that he is on his way to Earth. Kaiō warns that the Earth will be wiped out if they do not keep their hands off Birus, but Vegeta still does not care, at least not until Kaiō tells him that Birus took Super Saiyan 3 Goku down in just two blows. Vegeta rushes out and interrupts the party to warn everyone, but Birus is already there. Birus casually greets him, asking Vegeta if he remembers him. Vegeta recalls that when he was still little, his father King Vegeta treated Birus to a feast, but that Birus still used the King as a stepping stone at the time. Seeing Birus face-to-face, Vegeta can tell that Kaiō was not exaggerating; Birus is far too dangerous.

Kaizenshuu - Angered, Birus punches Goku hard in the gut, then sends him flying through West City with a ferocious kick. Goku stops himself mid-air, but before he can do anything Birus is already there and puts Goku in a headlock. Birus quickly whirls around him, kicks Goku off into a nearby forest, and gives chase. Not able to see them, Kame-Sen’nin and the others run over to a Capsule ship and fly off after the two. Goku and Birus continue exchanging blows in the forest, when Birus sends Goku flying with another kick to the face. Birus flies off after him and the two end up in a desert area with numerous rock formations surrounding them. Goku and Birus charge at each other and their punches collide, sending out an Earth-shattering shockwave. They pull away from each other and a trickle of blood falls from a cut on Goku’s cheek.

Where's the MFTL reaction speeds? Because I've already posted a scan of the Surfer flying around the globe with everyone frozen in place contemplating the entire scenario, being punched across the air doesn't quite seem as impressive. He'll the Surfer simply looking for a planet for Galactus to eat is a better feat than this thus far.

It doesn`t change the fact that they we were able to react to him and none of these characters are as fast as Bills. Thor in some cases may be shown to be fast but he is very slow especially when in comparing to Bills and Silver Surfer also did I forget to mention that when Bills was fighting at MFTL speeds he was holding back 30% of his true power?

It isn't much of a reaction feat to deck the Surfer when he is trying to talk to you, which I can say for the most part is going to be a majority of these showings you're referrencing. You might ask, why does he allow himself to be this vulnerable? Easy answer: Most of the characters hitting him can't hurt him, he's even apologized to She-Hulk for bumping into her fist.

Rulk beating on a Surfer who can't defend himself isn't a feat, especially not a feat worth mentioning when it isn't even the same character being discussed in this thread. Bad argument is bad.

Blown as in blown away into nothingness, an attack Bills could achieve at full power, attacks usually in DBZ affect things on the molecular level and with greater ki comes greater power, and Silver Surfer can be killed regardless if you believe he is more powerful now than he was before also I can see the scans in regards to the Uni Power events? Bills is the better fighter, something you clearly forgot he is the better tactician and is more skilled, he has used only light attacks on many in which he has them knocked out with no trouble at all and that`s him holding back. Now if at 70% he is able to fight at MFTL speeds, outpace IT and annihilate characters or even overpower them such as a SSJG Goku then imagine what he would be able to do at 100%, you are underestimating Bills. The only thing I would give Silver Surfer over Bills is the versatility advantage that is where he stomps Bills but Bills has him in combat speed and combat skill as well as combat ability, he is also more experienced.

Prove it. Show me Bills blasting with enough energy that is akin to Primordeal Gods, Universal Reality Warpers, Abstracts or beings sporting Nigh-Omnipotence. Those are the characters that are thus far shown capable of breaking his skin, which is a lot more durable than his board mind you. The best feat I've seen physical force do is dent his skull and that was Thor.

High-Light of Uni-Lord vs Silver Surfer: I'm not digging for the entire fight, mainly because I uploaded it a looooooong time ago.

Better tactician? More skill? At what solitaire? You have nothing to go on to say this nonsense. And it is nonsense.

At 2:45 - 2:57 he is able to take out a SSJ3 Goku by hitting him in his neck area and he did this by tapping him lightly.

At 0:27 - 0:29 he knocked out Piccolo with chopsticks.

At 1:06 - 1:13 he knocked out Vegeta with one simple touch.

Your point?

Which is why I mentioned Jeph Loeb and Rulk`s character, I was only making a point about Silver Surfer in regards to his showings whether it be 616, Ultimate and etc. Silver Surfer obviously has the greater speed which is why I asked about Terrax` reaction and combat speed.

That argument doesn`t make any sense. Bills wrecked all of them with no effort, many of the other DBZ villains haven`t done that before he still defeated Goku who received a massive power boost, and also can you show me an instance where energy attacks haven`t harmed the Silver Surfer? Also Bills has kiai which I already explained as an invisible attack.

If you want to make a point, use the actual character in question. Your point is otherwise completely lost. Many haven't what? Every DBU villain has trashed the entire cast till one of them props up enough power to actually defeat them. Sure:

What? King Kai`s planet is more durable than the earth and you can`t judge it based on its size or appearance the fact is Bills just flicked Goku with his finger, he didn`t use his real power or any of his fists so your argument here doesn`t make sense either. Also Bills can easily produce attacks that are>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> earth busting ones. Show me Silver Surfer flicking someone with no ease with just a finger than we`ll discuss things on that level. Compare him to using his fists to a finger flick.

No I'm judging it based off what planets are made of. King Kai's planet being argued to be more durable than the planet Earth is plainly nonsensical, it's a small ball of dirt / rock, it is in no shape or form as durable as an actual rocky planet, let alone Earth. You'd have to really come up with something substantial to prove otherwise, because it isn't just size I'm looking at but the content - and the content doesn't match up what you're claiming.

Can or did? Because most of these attacks are using chopsticks or slamming heads together, not destroying the Earth.

@neongamewave said:

Really? Exhausted? The point is he did not convert back to base form and that was Vegeta during the Cell Saga, this movie takes place after the Buu Saga and as we both know Saiyans become more powerful once they train, Vegeta was training in this film also notice how the attack did not do anything to Bills` whatsoever. PL are important and so is ki both of these terms help distinguish Dragon Ball Z characters that attack was definitely>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>a planetary attack.

Generally when I see panting and him holding his arms out as he pants - it doesn't look like he was glowing with energy - quite the opposite. Exhausted seems like a good fit for what he appears to be. Everyone becomes more powerful as they train in this series - this isn't exclusive to Saiyans and ironically despite Vegeta's supremely more difficult training regiment, he's still getting kicked to the curb by Goku. So much for training.

Assumptions, conjecture, etc.

What? Broly is nowhere near Bills` level, I believe you are simply overlooking my points and dismissing them as fan conjecture, I`m proving why Bills is a galaxy buster. Broly in his LSSJ form defeated SSJ1 Goku, Vegeta and etc. Bills stomped SSJ3, SSJG and the rest of the Z Fighters with no effort at all. If he had used 100% of his real power he would of had them annihilated. And he was holding back 30% of his power now tell how Broly would be more powerful than him? And why are you bringing Galactus into this fight when it has nothing to do with him? Has Silver Surfer done those very things on his own accord and power? No, he hasn`t. Broly and the other points I made connect with Bills and DBZ in general.

Your points are exactly that, you don't have anything akin to a concrete evidence for anything and are trying to argue based off how powerful you believe the character is. Broly out of all the villians thus far in the DBU has probably the best feats out of the lot in terms of destructive power and he more or less does exactly what Bills is going to do in this film. Just like every other character does in these films. The only difference is Bills curbstomped SSJ3 Goku, outside that its the same story we've seen before. "Galactic Destruction" is not Galactus, its a comment to the point you keep muttering on about this supposed destruction of galaxies you're insisting he's done or is capable of doing without so much as a scrap of evidence.

Sources and References are applicable as you are not well aware, you ignored my kiai argument and combat reaction argument as well in regards to the Silver Surfer. Silver Surfer is one of my top favorite Marvel characters, I read a good deal of his comics although I may not be perfect I still know his character well enough and he is indeed a force to be reckoned with but it doesn`t mean you have to underestimate Bills and throw him in with the generalizations of DBZ, I think there is a form of bias that is coming forth from your arguments.

Almost half your post was pointless fan conjecture aimed at the ideas of a Multiverse or what Broly has done in some vague attempt to bump Bills up in power. That isn't an argument, that is completely pointless chatter I could care less about it. There is no substance behind it.

For a big fan you've apparently you've missed just about every prominent fight that wasn't against Rulk. Regardless if you don't post anything worth responding to I'm not going to even bother with your response. So the guy arguing relentlessly for a character he hasn't actually seen in action yet outside of brief clips is the unbiased debater here? Cool.

Not even close. Bills murders.

Not with the way you're arguing. He's quite literally become another villain susceptible to about a dozen non-taxing abilities for the Surfer to beat him with.

#181 Edited by dccomicsrule2011 (25556 posts) - - Show Bio

@dccomicsrule2011: I hope she kills Priscilla, but knowing how the story goes she most likely is going to lose to her T.T Can't wait for mangastream's translation in the next few days. I can't stand Mangapanda's broken translations lol.

I agree Riful is obviously going to lose,it seems they are trying to make Prissy out to be a god especially with the whole "she does not regenerate but create"crap.

#182 Posted by OmgOmgWtfWtf (7040 posts) - - Show Bio

@dccomicsrule2011: yeah the whole hate equal power concept is very vague and seems to be contradictory in my opinion. The whole creation of matter, not regenerating concept is basically a standard Shonen power up lol. I really hope it doesn't turn out for the worse :(

#184 Edited by dccomicsrule2011 (25556 posts) - - Show Bio

@dccomicsrule2011: yeah the whole hate equal power concept is very vague and seems to be contradictory in my opinion. The whole creation of matter, not regenerating concept is basically a standard Shonen power up lol. I really hope it doesn't turn out for the worse :(

Yeah me too when it was first read I was like WTF? It makes very little sense and does fit in that particular universe imo.

#186 Edited by dccomicsrule2011 (25556 posts) - - Show Bio

People should really start using spoilers.......

#187 Edited by Walzo (4355 posts) - - Show Bio

@dccomicsrule2011:

It's honestly really frustrating having to scroll through all of this shit.

#188 Posted by uberhikari (2474 posts) - - Show Bio

Can someone get a mod in here to stop people from spamming these walls of text?

#190 Edited by NeonGameWave (8005 posts) - - Show Bio

@isaac_clarke said:
@neongamewave said:

Notice how when the transmutation was used on others they were successfully transformed into candies yet when it was used on Bills or Vegito it did not work whatsoever, ki is the attributive factor as I have said. His entire structure was changed yet he still retained some of his power who`s not to say even if Silver Surfer had succeeded in changing his atomic structure that Bills wouldn`t be able to fight and will Silver Surfer be able to catch Bills anyway? Their forms change however your forgetting the point, their atomic structure was manipulated and altered as well as their genetic makeup and their appearances do change. Bills also has altered things with a form of kiai as evidently shown within the following video which is video 1. For the first video go to 0:47 and watch till 1:03 as you can see, Bills could alter inanimate objects also things that are not alive but your argument is probably going to be there is no proof that he could resist Silver Surfer`s transmutation and what Bills did was not very impressive. This is also proves the fact that ki or even kiai play a factor into everything, ask yourself this, why did Buu`s transmutation work on everybody else but it wasn`t able to work on Vegito? It changed him into something that was inanimate yet he was able to fight with the same strength he had while in his true form and your telling me ki does not play a factor into all of this? Even when the author and creator himself confirmed that ki has a role in everything Dragon Ball? Saiyans and other characters as well use types of shields and you can`t say just because had eaten them or absorbed them that it disapproves the idea of it being transmutation the fact is that Buu had successfully transmuted them in the first place.

Notice how it worked just fine on the character that implements the attack itself? How said character re-appears not as fragments of a cookie?

Not whatsoever? Are we just ignoring the part where he becomes a candy ball as some sort of justification that KI can now allow a user to survive his atoms being torn apart? No matter how you slice it, the beam doesn't seem to transmute anything - otherwise Vegito would have died from a lack of a brain, heart, lungs or any basic necessities to actually be alive. The fact Buu was in one piece inside kinda helps push this argument further along.

It looks like the oval he was holding was incinerated after touching it and it if is matter manipulation, it isn't very impressive matter manipulation. We could quite literally look at dozens of other examples with similar results when a character touches something and it burns to ash in-front of everyone.

Because Vegito wasn't a half-wit and adjusted to his new body. That heart virus must have had a ton of KI to kill Goku. I mean, Vegito could resist (or in this case not) being turned into candy, yet that virus was able to put down a Son Goku like nothing.

@neongamewave said:
The synopsis is official and Bills actually has done some amazing things. He defeated a SSJG Goku who you claimed agave him trouble when Bills was only utilizing 70% of his overall power and he defeated all of the heroic characters with absolute ease. Its not like comics where your going to see galaxies and stars being destroyed sometimes for no good reason in context of the story, manga works differently as does its narrative. The synopsis is accurately translated and done by someone who has watched the movie in its first day premiere in Japan as well as someone who obviously speaks Japanese. Once the movie comes out in my opinion more will only be revealed its not like I`m debating Bills in regards to the movie not coming out yet in like 2 weeks or 3 months.

Its one thing to watch a movie, its another to read its synopsis and then roll an argument around a character based off that synopsis. Even expanding past what is actually done and trying to work around the fact the characters are quite literally repeating what they have been doing since saiyan saga.

We aren't even discussing Manga. We're talking about an animated film that has yet to be released, regardles comics and manga are more or less the same method of telling a narrative, pretending their different outside their intended audiences is silly. Maybe wait for the movie before you start muttering on about how he easily destroys solar systems or galaxies despite the lack of anything worthwhile to say that is the case? But I doubt it.

@neongamewave said:

Silver Surfer has been forced back or damaged by energy attacks before and he might be able to manipulate some form of the ki energy but that is if he would be able to absorb it or understand the properties behind it. Its a life energy and Bills like I said is MFTL in combat, reaction and travel speed somewhere the Silver Surfer is lacking. He is also a combat genius if he realizes that his attacks are not affecting the Silver Surfer he would attack Silver Surfer physically and that attack you mentioned was not a galaxy busting one, you just said cleared armies did it wipe out a galaxy? I don`t think Silver Surfer can come back from nothingness and here is the proof in regards to Bills` speed. Goku couldn`t even keep up with Bills even he was using Instant Transmission which is faster than light speed and Bills as well as Whis crossed Snake Way as they reached Vegeta even during he was in telepathic contact with King Kai. Thor is not even close to being at these speeds in terms of reaction and combat speed also the difference is that Mjonir is FTL not MFTL, has Silver Surfer ever fought at MFTL speeds before?

Here's the thing. Goku can manipulate KI. Everyone in the cast can manipulate their KI. How does a character that has had no issues manipulating random energies for decades suddenly going to have issues with energy that for the most part normal biological organisms can bend to their will?

Show me Bill moving at MFTL. In ever clip thus far he is doing hardly any movement whatsoever and has gets tagged by EVERY character(with the exception of Tien and 18). It doesn't help that EVERY character can seemingly watch tentatively and know exactly whats going on. If they are all sporting FTL reaction times, the question becomes: When did Bulma get MFTL reaction times? Or Roshi? Or Krillin and the list goes on and on.

His travel speed isn't on the surfer's rader. Lets not kid ourselves, when Bills goes so fast he exits time and space, call me then. His genius is nothing compared to cosmic awareness, which was overwhelming the High Revolutionary at how much information the Surfer was exposed to from all of the cosmos. It was a galactic wide attack, if not multi-galactic according to Thanos Imperative. It obliterated the armies, as well as a Watcher that stuck around to watch. Was the galaxy still there? For the most part, yes it was since the intended target was the Wave.

How does Bills make him become "nothingness" prove that Bill is sufficiently powerful to damage the Surfer and maybe we can entertain an argument. Trashing the Z-Fighters isn't that kind of winning argument, especially when the biggest opponent he had was the guy who was absorbing his attacks. You know, the Surfer's main calling card against anyone blasting with energy that he doesn't tank.

@neongamewave said:
Kaizenshuu - Vegeta is still off on his own training when Kaiō telepathically contacts him. After listening to what Kaiō has to say, Vegeta says he has heard of the God of Destruction, but he is not too worried that he is on his way to Earth. Kaiō warns that the Earth will be wiped out if they do not keep their hands off Birus, but Vegeta still does not care, at least not until Kaiō tells him that Birus took Super Saiyan 3 Goku down in just two blows. Vegeta rushes out and interrupts the party to warn everyone, but Birus is already there. Birus casually greets him, asking Vegeta if he remembers him. Vegeta recalls that when he was still little, his father King Vegeta treated Birus to a feast, but that Birus still used the King as a stepping stone at the time. Seeing Birus face-to-face, Vegeta can tell that Kaiō was not exaggerating; Birus is far too dangerous.

Kaizenshuu - Angered, Birus punches Goku hard in the gut, then sends him flying through West City with a ferocious kick. Goku stops himself mid-air, but before he can do anything Birus is already there and puts Goku in a headlock. Birus quickly whirls around him, kicks Goku off into a nearby forest, and gives chase. Not able to see them, Kame-Sen’nin and the others run over to a Capsule ship and fly off after the two. Goku and Birus continue exchanging blows in the forest, when Birus sends Goku flying with another kick to the face. Birus flies off after him and the two end up in a desert area with numerous rock formations surrounding them. Goku and Birus charge at each other and their punches collide, sending out an Earth-shattering shockwave. They pull away from each other and a trickle of blood falls from a cut on Goku’s cheek.

Where's the MFTL reaction speeds? Because I've already posted a scan of the Surfer flying around the globe with everyone frozen in place contemplating the entire scenario, being punched across the air doesn't quite seem as impressive. He'll the Surfer simply looking for a planet for Galactus to eat is a better feat than this thus far.

@neongamewave said:

Bills tanked Vegeta`s ki blast which is Solar System level and he tanked SSJG Goku`s kamehameha which is above due to having the energies of Ultimate Gohan, Trunks, Goten, Vegeta and Pan. Bills has tanked these leveling blasts before and I already explained why in the previous posts which you clearly overlooked.

Absolutely no proof whatsoever to say this. Your entire argument is more or less assumptions at how powerful these characters are. No substance.

@neongamewave said:
Kaizenshuu - Vegeta is still off on his own training when Kaiō telepathically contacts him. After listening to what Kaiō has to say, Vegeta says he has heard of the God of Destruction, but he is not too worried that he is on his way to Earth. Kaiō warns that the Earth will be wiped out if they do not keep their hands off Birus, but Vegeta still does not care, at least not until Kaiō tells him that Birus took Super Saiyan 3 Goku down in just two blows. Vegeta rushes out and interrupts the party to warn everyone, but Birus is already there. Birus casually greets him, asking Vegeta if he remembers him. Vegeta recalls that when he was still little, his father King Vegeta treated Birus to a feast, but that Birus still used the King as a stepping stone at the time. Seeing Birus face-to-face, Vegeta can tell that Kaiō was not exaggerating; Birus is far too dangerous.

Kaizenshuu - Angered, Birus punches Goku hard in the gut, then sends him flying through West City with a ferocious kick. Goku stops himself mid-air, but before he can do anything Birus is already there and puts Goku in a headlock. Birus quickly whirls around him, kicks Goku off into a nearby forest, and gives chase. Not able to see them, Kame-Sen’nin and the others run over to a Capsule ship and fly off after the two. Goku and Birus continue exchanging blows in the forest, when Birus sends Goku flying with another kick to the face. Birus flies off after him and the two end up in a desert area with numerous rock formations surrounding them. Goku and Birus charge at each other and their punches collide, sending out an Earth-shattering shockwave. They pull away from each other and a trickle of blood falls from a cut on Goku’s cheek.

Where's the MFTL reaction speeds? Because I've already posted a scan of the Surfer flying around the globe with everyone frozen in place contemplating the entire scenario, being punched across the air doesn't quite seem as impressive. He'll the Surfer simply looking for a planet for Galactus to eat is a better feat than this thus far.

@neongamewave said:
It doesn`t change the fact that they we were able to react to him and none of these characters are as fast as Bills. Thor in some cases may be shown to be fast but he is very slow especially when in comparing to Bills and Silver Surfer also did I forget to mention that when Bills was fighting at MFTL speeds he was holding back 30% of his true power?

It isn't much of a reaction feat to deck the Surfer when he is trying to talk to you, which I can say for the most part is going to be a majority of these showings you're referrencing. You might ask, why does he allow himself to be this vulnerable? Easy answer: Most of the characters hitting him can't hurt him, he's even apologized to She-Hulk for bumping into her fist.

Rulk beating on a Surfer who can't defend himself isn't a feat, especially not a feat worth mentioning when it isn't even the same character being discussed in this thread. Bad argument is bad.

@neongamewave said:

Blown as in blown away into nothingness, an attack Bills could achieve at full power, attacks usually in DBZ affect things on the molecular level and with greater ki comes greater power, and Silver Surfer can be killed regardless if you believe he is more powerful now than he was before also I can see the scans in regards to the Uni Power events? Bills is the better fighter, something you clearly forgot he is the better tactician and is more skilled, he has used only light attacks on many in which he has them knocked out with no trouble at all and that`s him holding back. Now if at 70% he is able to fight at MFTL speeds, outpace IT and annihilate characters or even overpower them such as a SSJG Goku then imagine what he would be able to do at 100%, you are underestimating Bills. The only thing I would give Silver Surfer over Bills is the versatility advantage that is where he stomps Bills but Bills has him in combat speed and combat skill as well as combat ability, he is also more experienced.

Prove it. Show me Bills blasting with enough energy that is akin to Primordeal Gods, Universal Reality Warpers, Abstracts or beings sporting Nigh-Omnipotence. Those are the characters that are thus far shown capable of breaking his skin, which is a lot more durable than his board mind you. The best feat I've seen physical force do is dent his skull and that was Thor.

High-Light of Uni-Lord vs Silver Surfer: I'm not digging for the entire fight, mainly because I uploaded it a looooooong time ago.

Better tactician? More skill? At what solitaire? You have nothing to go on to say this nonsense. And it is nonsense.

@neongamewave said:

At 2:45 - 2:57 he is able to take out a SSJ3 Goku by hitting him in his neck area and he did this by tapping him lightly.

At 0:27 - 0:29 he knocked out Piccolo with chopsticks.

At 1:06 - 1:13 he knocked out Vegeta with one simple touch.

Your point?

@neongamewave said:

Which is why I mentioned Jeph Loeb and Rulk`s character, I was only making a point about Silver Surfer in regards to his showings whether it be 616, Ultimate and etc. Silver Surfer obviously has the greater speed which is why I asked about Terrax` reaction and combat speed.

That argument doesn`t make any sense. Bills wrecked all of them with no effort, many of the other DBZ villains haven`t done that before he still defeated Goku who received a massive power boost, and also can you show me an instance where energy attacks haven`t harmed the Silver Surfer? Also Bills has kiai which I already explained as an invisible attack.

If you want to make a point, use the actual character in question. Your point is otherwise completely lost. Many haven't what? Every DBU villain has trashed the entire cast till one of them props up enough power to actually defeat them. Sure:

@neongamewave said:

What? King Kai`s planet is more durable than the earth and you can`t judge it based on its size or appearance the fact is Bills just flicked Goku with his finger, he didn`t use his real power or any of his fists so your argument here doesn`t make sense either. Also Bills can easily produce attacks that are>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> earth busting ones. Show me Silver Surfer flicking someone with no ease with just a finger than we`ll discuss things on that level. Compare him to using his fists to a finger flick.

No I'm judging it based off what planets are made of. King Kai's planet being argued to be more durable than the planet Earth is plainly nonsensical, it's a small ball of dirt / rock, it is in no shape or form as durable as an actual rocky planet, let alone Earth. You'd have to really come up with something substantial to prove otherwise, because it isn't just size I'm looking at but the content - and the content doesn't match up what you're claiming.

Can or did? Because most of these attacks are using chopsticks or slamming heads together, not destroying the Earth.

@neongamewave said:

Really? Exhausted? The point is he did not convert back to base form and that was Vegeta during the Cell Saga, this movie takes place after the Buu Saga and as we both know Saiyans become more powerful once they train, Vegeta was training in this film also notice how the attack did not do anything to Bills` whatsoever. PL are important and so is ki both of these terms help distinguish Dragon Ball Z characters that attack was definitely>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>a planetary attack.

Generally when I see panting and him holding his arms out as he pants - it doesn't look like he was glowing with energy - quite the opposite. Exhausted seems like a good fit for what he appears to be. Everyone becomes more powerful as they train in this series - this isn't exclusive to Saiyans and ironically despite Vegeta's supremely more difficult training regiment, he's still getting kicked to the curb by Goku. So much for training.

Assumptions, conjecture, etc.

@neongamewave said:

What? Broly is nowhere near Bills` level, I believe you are simply overlooking my points and dismissing them as fan conjecture, I`m proving why Bills is a galaxy buster. Broly in his LSSJ form defeated SSJ1 Goku, Vegeta and etc. Bills stomped SSJ3, SSJG and the rest of the Z Fighters with no effort at all. If he had used 100% of his real power he would of had them annihilated. And he was holding back 30% of his power now tell how Broly would be more powerful than him? And why are you bringing Galactus into this fight when it has nothing to do with him? Has Silver Surfer done those very things on his own accord and power? No, he hasn`t. Broly and the other points I made connect with Bills and DBZ in general.

Your points are exactly that, you don't have anything akin to a concrete evidence for anything and are trying to argue based off how powerful you believe the character is. Broly out of all the villians thus far in the DBU has probably the best feats out of the lot in terms of destructive power and he more or less does exactly what Bills is going to do in this film. Just like every other character does in these films. The only difference is Bills curbstomped SSJ3 Goku, outside that its the same story we've seen before. "Galactic Destruction" is not Galactus, its a comment to the point you keep muttering on about this supposed destruction of galaxies you're insisting he's done or is capable of doing without so much as a scrap of evidence.

@neongamewave said:
Sources and References are applicable as you are not well aware, you ignored my kiai argument and combat reaction argument as well in regards to the Silver Surfer. Silver Surfer is one of my top favorite Marvel characters, I read a good deal of his comics although I may not be perfect I still know his character well enough and he is indeed a force to be reckoned with but it doesn`t mean you have to underestimate Bills and throw him in with the generalizations of DBZ, I think there is a form of bias that is coming forth from your arguments.

Almost half your post was pointless fan conjecture aimed at the ideas of a Multiverse or what Broly has done in some vague attempt to bump Bills up in power. That isn't an argument, that is completely pointless chatter I could care less about it. There is no substance behind it.

For a big fan you've apparently you've missed just about every prominent fight that wasn't against Rulk. Regardless if you don't post anything worth responding to I'm not going to even bother with your response. So the guy arguing relentlessly for a character he hasn't actually seen in action yet outside of brief clips is the unbiased debater here? Cool.

@neongamewave said:
Not even close. Bills murders.

Not with the way you're arguing. He's quite literally become another villain susceptible to about a dozen non-taxing abilities for the Surfer to beat him with.

And your point what exactly? It doesn`t change the facts that were already stated, its transmutation regardless of how it is used the fact is it achieves the same effects.

And how does your argument exactly prove that it is not transmutation? What else could it be? Its matter manipulation nonetheless, it changed the target`s body structure and notice how the many other characters did not retain their power, also I already told you why in regards to how ki is a factor. So by your argument its not transmutation simply because it did not kill them or have them lacking of specific organs or functions? Your argument did not prove anything, your simply assuming things and theorizing. So why wouldn`t it be transmutation? Silver Surfer usually utilizes matter manipulation to change and alter energies or substances as it would fit into the definition of what matter manipulation is supposed to be although similar, transmutation actually changes one`s or something`s form completely into something completely different without certain materials and forms of application. Silver Surfer can achieve transmutation but usually he would have used this form through the manipulation of matter or energies as he also relies on matter manipulation. Now when does Silver Surfer usually transmute someone of Bills` category who uses a form of transmutation himself?

Transmutation

  1. The action of changing or the state of being changed into another form: "the transmutation of the economy".
  2. The changing of one element into another by radioactive decay, nuclear bombardment, or similar processes.

Matter Manipulation

Characters capable of consciously manipulating inorganic, and sometimes organic, matter at the molecular, sub-molecular, atomic, or sub-atomic scale. Characters with wide-spectrum matter manipulation would be capable of such feats as disintegration and reformation thus changing any object into anything they wish, though other characters might be capable of only targeted applications, like turning objects into gold and gold only.

Like what? Bills clearly used a form of transmutation by shaping it or transmuting it into sand, it was a egg by the way and he utilized his ki to perform this which says something as in comparison to Silver Surfer and his cosmic ability.

Wow. You still resort to the petty argument about Goku and the heart virus we had no clue about? Two totally different situations, and Vegito being a half wit or adjusting to the situation is a lame excuse the fact is that he was still able to overpower Buu even when changed into candy or a different form, weaker characters and characters who aren`t exactly senseless were not able to do that.

The point is that the synopsis is accurate and what was shown within the synopsis itself is actually accurate in occurrence to what was released in regards to the movie, there are many leaked videos that display exactly what the synopsis entails once the movie is leaked in its entirety you will learn to understand better. Repeating? Nothing is repeated just as shown in the Saiyan Saga your using old events to downgrade or overshadow current events that happen pretty differently and based on what I have seen and found out it is very different although it may still retain a form of formula in regards to what DBZ is and was always meant to be.

I was making a point about how manga and comics differ also its not simply an animated film it takes place officially within the manga between Chapters 517-518 also there is already proof as to why Bills would be able to destroy galaxies and solar systems. Cell alone can destroy a solar system as confirmed by the author himself within the official handbooks and its very logical if you are not to let ignorance ignite your understandings and perceptions. The following is official dialogue from the movie and this said by Bills` master Whis who is his superior and mentor, now are you going to tell me that his master would lie or over exaggerate things? I doubt it, and notice how I already explained why Bills would be able o blow up a galaxy or solar system. All you did was dismissed and ignored it as being conjecture you did not take the time to understand my point.

Kazenshuu - Uis warns everyone to be careful what they say; if anything rubs Birus the wrong way, he will destroy the entire solar system in no time at all.

Has anyone in DBZ actually absorbed ki? Not manipulation, absorption, Goku in SSJG form was able to absorb Bills` energy but he was left exhausted and it weakened him also like I said that wasn`t Bills going all out with his true power.

What?? Bills clearly wasn`t fighting at those speeds and did not need to, what happened was that the battle continued from a confrontation he had with Buu so by your logic Superman wouldn`t have nanosecond reaction time because he is fighting Doomsday at regular levels? Bills was outpacing Goku`s Instant Transmission and Bills as well as his master Whis crossed Other World, Heaven, Hell in seconds during the time King Kai was telepathically communicating with Vegeta that is definitely MFTL in travel speed also him being able to outpace Goku even when he was using IT proves why he would be MFTL in combat speed. Bills utilized his speed a lot more when he was battling Goku through space and the earth this is something you clearly overlooked.

Kazenshuu - Birus nonchalantly bids Kaiō farewell, and heads off with Uis for Earth. Goku is in bad shape, but still alive, and Kaiō curses him for his stupidity. He realizes he has to contact Vegeta right away and inform him of the situation.

Kanzenshuu - Vegeta is still off on his own training when Kaiō telepathically contacts him. After listening to what Kaiō has to say, Vegeta says he has heard of the God of Destruction, but he is not too worried that he is on his way to Earth. Kaiō warns that the Earth will be wiped out if they do not keep their hands off Birus, but Vegeta still does not care, at least not until Kaiō tells him that Birus took Super Saiyan 3 Goku down in just two blows. Vegeta rushes out and interrupts the party to warn everyone, but Birus is already there. Birus casually greets him, asking Vegeta if he remembers him. Vegeta recalls that when he was still little, his father King Vegeta treated Birus to a feast, but that Birus still used the King as a stepping stone at the time. Seeing Birus face-to-face, Vegeta can tell that Kaiō was not exaggerating; Birus is far too dangerous.

Now this doesn`t make any sense? His Cosmic Awareness wouldn`t necessarily make him at a fighting genius it makes an intellect in the understanding of location and opponent but it doesn`t make him a fighting genius his feats prove otherwise. Yes a wave that didn`t destroy any galaxy whatsoever and that fight has nothing to do with his fight with Bills, Silver Surfer cannot even produce those types of attacks on a regular basis, most DBZ characters have the power to destroy planets and solar systems, Bills is far greater than any of them when holding back his true power. Silver Surfer also uses a form of time manipulation he doesn`t just simply move so fast that he exists time and space he has an ability that allows him to achieve that and that`s travel speed not combat speed.

Show me scans of Surfer not being affected by energy blasts and then we`ll talk. He manipulated energies and thus absorbs them but it doesn`t mean he can`t be affected also my point was that Bills wasn`t even using anywhere near his true power to stomp the Z Fighters as well as SSJG Goku. Silver Surfer has never survived an attack that is galaxy or solar system level on that type of scale when harnessed into a burst of energy, he has never tanked anything like that. So can you show me a scan of him surviving an attack like that? Also Bills overpowered Goku with not much power, he held back 30% and has Silver Surfer ever produced a solar system or supernova leveling attack in one harnessed focus of energy if not then we would know that he pales in comparison to the more powerful Dragon Ball Z characters.

Bills did not simply punch Goku to the West City he appeared instantly before him when delivering that strike. And that argument is just ridiculous you know that`s travel speed right? When the Silver Surfer is traveling at those speeds to search for a planet he isn`t actually battling anybody or giving them a tour of the universe.

In Dragon Ball Online which is canon and was written by Akira Toriyama, Vegeta and Goku`s fight in space caused or produced explosions that rivaled that of supernovas.

http://dbmmo.com/about

http://wiki.dbmmo.com/index.php?title=Storyline

Age 801 officially in text and translated, words of Akira Toriyama!

Goku goes missing. He and Vegeta realized they were nearing the end of their prime. Vegeta and Goku mysteriously vanish from Earth. Years later explosions on par with supernovas were detected which were believed to be caused by a battle between Goku and Vegeta.

Sources:

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=14963

http://cafe.daum.net/FoReVerDB/70rX/5635

http://dragonball.comgames.de/?forum-showposts-1479-p1

Vegeta`s weakest attacks would be able to destroy massive planets and that ki blast he hit Bills with was way above any of his previous attacks it consumed all of his ki also Bills was hit with Goku`s kamehameha which contained the energies of Ultimate Gohan, Vegeta, Pan, Trunks, Goten and himself but it did not do anything that attack would logically be above supernova level, Cell alone is a solar system buster and these characters are far above him.

Translated: http://magikarp46.dyndns.org/dragonball/daizenshuu/07/07-046.html

For the word Kiri:

"キリ Kiri Kili An energy unit used by Bobbidi. When Bobbidi measured Goku's energy during his fight with Yakon, this unit was used. [Par.] Goku's energy level is over 3,000 kili. At approximately 200-300 kili, one can destroy 1 or 2 planets.

As stated within the official Daizenshuu and further confirmed within the manga, Goku with a PL of 3,000 within SSJ1 form would be able to blow up 10-15 planets greater in size than the earth or 10-15 planets at once as it even stated that it was 1 or 2 planets that someone with 200-300 kili would be able to accomplish easily. SSJ3 Goku would easily be able to destroy the Solar System and Perfect Cell can as well but Bills>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>SSJ3 Goku and Perfect Cell. Their attacks usually threaten to blow up the planet but they concentrate their attacks and Vegeta`s Final Flash almost destroyed the earth, Vegeta had to concentrate it but this recent ki attack consumed all of his ki energy unlike Final Flash also he did not have to power up as much which makes it more impressive for Bills and the attack itself was concentrated, concentrated explosions in most cases would be>>>>expanded ones.

And your point is? You haven`t exactly shown or proven why Silver Surfer would be able to fight at MFTL combat speeds he travels at those speeds but he certainly doesn`t fight at those speeds.

I was only making a point about Silver Surfer in regards to multiple showings and versions, you failed to understand the purpose of my argument.

You haven`t proven otherwise so it doesn`t make sense for you to say nonsense when Silver Surfer does not have the same combat experience Bills has and he doesn`t use any form of specialized techniques he uses the Power Cosmic to solve most of his problems, where is his combat ability exactly.

You know my point it doesn`t make sense for you to overlook them.

However Bills actually overpowered a SSJG Goku and he wasn`t at full power also he has displayed far greater technique than the other villains has any of the other villains done that?

You haven`t proven why it isn`t more durable than earth your judging it based on appearance so you haven`t actually provided anything other than your opinion and the point is Bills flicked Goku. King Kai`s planet is confirmed as being 10x Earth`s gravity.

Yeah right. The point is obviously clear, Vegeta`s ki level did not shoot down when he fired Final Flash but it did when he fired a ki blast at Bills and Saiyans in particular being the combat race that they are become very powerful when undergoing training and my point still stands that they have become more powerful.

I already explained why Bills would be able to do the same what Broly did in regards to busting a galaxy all you did was ignore and overlook it. Bills also overpowered a SSJG Goku with only 70% of his power that is something you are forgetting.

Broly actually would relate to Bills considering how powerful Bills would be and its not senseless conjecture you made it out to be, Bills is far more powerful than Broly its like arguing Vegito wouldn`t be able to bust a planet because he hasn`t shown to do it and Frieza in his first form destroyed Planet Vegeta.

Also like I said you ignored my kiai argument and you haven`t posted anything in regards to Silver Surfer`s combat reaction feats.

Like I said I was only making a point about Silver Surfer and Superman, this Bills character actually has official information released as well as accurately shown based on the official synopsis, I even explained the situation so its not a form of bias unlike you assumes things and downgrades a DBZ character with DBZ generalizations such as it being the same thing over and over.

Like what exactly?

If you keep ignoring my arguments and dismissing them as conjecture, there would be no point to this debate since you simply would overlook my points.

#191 Posted by NeonGameWave (8005 posts) - - Show Bio

For the simple fact that he would be able to bust galaxies without using a majority or great fraction of his overall power. I know you are probably going o dismiss it and say well you have no proof, Power Levels don`t work even though Akira Toriyama himself already confirmed that Cell is a solar system buster and Bills would definitely fit the Bill for Galaxy Buster due to the significant gap of power and how ki is the distinguishable factor for the attributive and fundamental as well as methodical utilization of ki even Akira confirmed why ki would be so important not simply Power Levels but Ki and Ki Control itself. Bills is a maintainer for the entire universe and has been around for a very long time, he destroys stars, planets and other forms of life across the entire universe, his master Whis even said he would wipe out the entire Solar System in no time at all just through a suit of rage and it wouldn`t require him to use his absolute max power and before you question me, yes I do know what a Skyfather is and the requirements to be placed on that level. Some of the few examples would be Odin, Dormammu and Zeus although these beings probably as well as easily supersede Bills, I`m not a fanboy either I wouldn`t dare put Bills on Abstract Level or on the level of Galactus, I know DBZ fanboys who had made a critical mistake in that regard but even if he is not to be on skyfather level he would at least be herald level.

#192 Edited by debeze (243 posts) - - Show Bio

@walzo: damn dude if you didnt tell me i wouldnt know thanks for telling me mate.

b

@walzo said:

I don't understand why this Purple Cat is being put against Silver Surfer.

Surfer has better reaction time, better speed, versatile powers, etc.

bills is pretty fast too his travel speed is MFTL and he is also rlly fast , but ye he does have more versatile powers

#193 Posted by SSJLozza (1528 posts) - - Show Bio

Bills

#194 Edited by debeze (243 posts) - - Show Bio

@uberhikari said:

So, after walls and walls and walls and walls and walls of text, what have we learned? Bills is clearly not a galaxy buster. Bills never busted a galaxy, Akira Toriyama never said Bills could bust a galaxy, and no databooks or handbooks say Bills can bust a galaxy.

lol i said it since the beggining , also i dont think silver surfer canT bust a galaxy either.

#195 Posted by uberhikari (2474 posts) - - Show Bio

@debeze: I agree, I don't think anybody here is arguing that Surfer is a galaxy buster. I think his highest showing with respect to destructive capacity is taking out solar system. But a bloodlusted SS has also been shown to create black holes as well.

#196 Posted by Walzo (4355 posts) - - Show Bio

@debeze said:

@walzo: damn dude if you didnt tell me i wouldnt know thanks for telling me mate.

b

@walzo said:

I don't understand why this Purple Cat is being put against Silver Surfer.

Surfer has better reaction time, better speed, versatile powers, etc.

bills is pretty fast too his travel speed is MFTL and he is also rlly fast , but ye he does have more versatile powers

Okay, let's say that there speed's are equal; this is where Surfer's versatility comes in.

How does Bills combat TP or Intangibility.

#197 Posted by Walzo (4355 posts) - - Show Bio

For the simple fact that he would be able to bust galaxies without using a majority or great fraction of his overall power. I know you are probably going o dismiss it and say well you have no proof, Power Levels don`t work even though Akira Toriyama himself already confirmed that Cell is a solar system buster and Bills would definitely fit the Bill for Galaxy Buster due to the significant gap of power and how ki is the distinguishable factor for the attributive and fundamental as well as methodical utilization of ki even Akira confirmed why ki would be so important not simply Power Levels but Ki and Ki Control itself. Bills is a maintainer for the entire universe and has been around for a very long time, he destroys stars, planets and other forms of life across the entire universe, his master Whis even said he would wipe out the entire Solar System in no time at all just through a suit of rage and it wouldn`t require him to use his absolute max power and before you question me, yes I do know what a Skyfather is and the requirements to be placed on that level. Some of the few examples would be Odin, Dormammu and Zeus although these beings probably as well as easily supersede Bills, I`m not a fanboy either I wouldn`t dare put Bills on Abstract Level or on the level of Galactus, I know DBZ fanboys who had made a critical mistake in that regard but even if he is not to be on skyfather level he would at least be herald level.

Just because Toriyama said CELL could destroy a solar system, doesn't mean that Bills can do what he said. That's not how that works.

Also, how does Bills combat Intangibility or TP?

That's right, he can't.

#198 Edited by NeonGameWave (8005 posts) - - Show Bio

@walzo: Its officially confirmed by the author within the manga as well as the handbooks and it is very logical for Cell and the reason why I say that is because Akira already confirmed why ki control and PL were important in regards to the characters. Bills` Master Whis who trained him and is his superior said Bills can destroy a solar system in an instant why would he lie? He would know how powerful Bills would be and what he is capable of.

When does Silver Surfer use TP within battle? He can`t stay intangible forever, how can he counter Bills` kiai which is an invisible force or attack? Would he be able to counter Bills who can fight at MFTL speeds?

Silver Surfer isn`t stomping Bills.

#199 Edited by ComicStooge (13404 posts) - - Show Bio

@walzo: Its officially confirmed by the author within the manga as well as the handbooks and it is very logical for Cell and the reason why I say that is because Akira already confirmed why ki control and PL were important in regards to the characters. Bills` Master Whis who trained him and is his superior said Bills can destroy a solar system in an instant why would he lie? He would know how powerful Bills would be and what he is capable of.

When does Silver Surfer use TP within battle? He can`t stay intangible forever, how can he counter Bills` kiai which is an invisible force or attack? Would be able to counter Bills who can fight at MFTL speeds?

Silver Surfer isn`t stomping Bills.

Any proof Bills has MFTL combat speeds?

#200 Posted by Walzo (4355 posts) - - Show Bio

@neongamewave:

Why couldn't Surfer stay intangible forever? He has Cosmic Awareness, he'd be able to know how powerful Bills is. The OP even states they are bloodlusted and have no morals, Surfer would absolutely use any way to win.

I never said he'd stomp Bills.