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#101 Edited by laflux (14382 posts) - - Show Bio

@uberhikari said:

@neongamewave: No, Goku and Vegeta can destroy planets because they've been powerscaled at that level. Neither Cell nor Bills can be powerscaled to either solar system or galaxy busting. I don't care about anything else you wrote because: no feats = no feats = no feats.

I know I've joined this party late, but that logic is faulty IMO. If the author of a title says that a character can or can't do something, then their word is final, whether or not it is shown on panel. Especially, if they are the sole creator of that character. This works whether a its comics, movies or TV shows. The fictional creation is the just that, a fictional creation, and the author is free to add whatever powers, abilities, plot-holes etc as he sees fit.

And this actually works over and above on Panel feats. For example, Thor and Hulk have both been shown in the past to break and crack through Adamantuim. This was later retconned by Marvel so that all in all instances the Adamantuim was secondary, even when it was explicitly stated on panel that it was pure Adamantuim.

What I'm trying to say here is that authors are not called TOAA's for nothing. If they say a character they created can do ABC and D, then they can do ABC and D.

/Rant

#102 Edited by uberhikari (2463 posts) - - Show Bio

This is the real problem with DBZ fans, they simply don't know how to argue. To them the DBZ characters seem strong but since they lack definitive feats to prove this they use speculative methods of arguing.

For example, they claim Akira Toriyama has confirmed that Cell is a solar system buster. I've often heard this claim but there's no evidence supporting it. Just because Cell, a character known to have an inflated sense of his own abilities, says he can bust a solar system doesn't mean the author intended for him to be this powerful. It's plausible that Cell was just boasting. Perhaps someone can provide evidence that Akira Toriyama actually confirmed that Cell is a solar system buster? I'll wait with baited breath...

Another thing DBZ fans like to do is claim that data books and/or hand books prove x, y, and z. But there are no data books and/or hand books stating that Cell is a solar system buster. If there are perhaps some evidence of this can be adduced as well? Again, I'll wait with baited breath.

Yet another attempt that DBZ fans use is power level math. Good luck with that one, I say. Power levels stopped being used during the Frieza saga, and to put it simply, there's no evidence that abilities scale linearly with power levels even if we knew what they were. In any event, the power level needed to bust a solar system was never stated, and no one knows what it is. Therefore, no one can know if Cell has the power level necessary to bust a solar system.

The final thing DBZ fans say is that because you can't disprove that Cell is solar system buster then he is. This is silly for obvious reasons: the fact that a claim can't be disproved can't be used as evidence that the claim is true. For example, no one here can disprove the existence of a pink unicorn standing next to me, but can the fact that you can't disprove this be used as evidence that there is a pink unicorn standing next to me? Of course not. The burden of proof lies with the person making the claim not with the person denying the claim. The onus is on the DBZ fans to PROVE that Cell can bust a solar system. I certainly can't disprove the claim that Cell can bust a solar system, but this can't be used as evidence that he can. And Cell NEVER busted a solar system, therefore, I'm justified in saying that Cell is not a solar system buster.

In any event, this thread isn't about Cell it's about Bills. And in the case of Bills the "evidence" for him being a galaxy buster is even more flimsy. Bills never busted a galaxy, there are no data books and/or hand books that claim he can, and Akira Toriyama never said he could. There's one statement made by Piccolo about the galaxy being in peril or some such nonsense to that effect; but there's no reason to take Piccolo's statement as fact.

I've already pointed out all the ways SS would utterly crush Bills with powers/abilities that Bills has no answer for, so I'm pretty much done here. Good day.

#103 Edited by uberhikari (2463 posts) - - Show Bio

@laflux: You haven't proven that my logic is faulty, you've merely asserted something, namely, that the author's word is final. So what? I disagree. For example, the Naruto databooks claim that Haku using the Demonic Mirroring Ice Crystals jutsu is light speed. This is obviously not true, LOL. It would mean that everybody genin level and above in Naruto is FTL. Here's a bet: make a thread with Naruto vs Superman in a foot race and argue that Naruto is faster. If you do, I'll concede the point.

When on panel feats and author statements conflict, at best, what we're left with is an irresolvable contradiction. For me personally, though, on panel feats are a better form of evidence simply because there can be no dispute when you SEE the character performing the feat.

#104 Edited by xlab3000 (3157 posts) - - Show Bio

Bills

#106 Posted by xlab3000 (3157 posts) - - Show Bio

This is the real problem with DBZ fans, they simply don't know how to argue. To them the DBZ characters seem strong but since they lack definitive feats to prove this they use speculative methods of arguing.

For example, they claim Akira Toriyama has confirmed that Cell is a solar system buster. I've often heard this claim but there's no evidence supporting it. Just because Cell, a character known to have an inflated sense of his own abilities, says he can bust a solar system doesn't mean the author intended for him to be this powerful. It's plausible that Cell was just boasting. Perhaps someone can provide evidence that Akira Toriyama actually confirmed that Cell is a solar system buster? I'll wait with baited breath...

Another thing DBZ fans like to do is claim that data books and/or hand books prove x, y, and z. But there are no data books and/or hand books stating that Cell is a solar system buster. If there are perhaps some evidence of this can be adduced as well? Again, I'll wait with baited breath.

Yet another attempt that DBZ fans use is power level math. Good luck with that one, I say. Power levels stopped being used during the Frieza saga, and to put it simply, there's no evidence that abilities scale linearly with power levels even if we knew what they were. In any event, the power level needed to bust a solar system was never stated, and no one knows what it is. Therefore, no one can know if Cell has the power level necessary to bust a solar system.

The final thing DBZ fans say is that because you can't disprove that Cell is solar system buster then he is. This is silly for obvious reasons: the fact that a claim can't be disproved can't be used as evidence that the claim is true. For example, no one here can disprove the existence of a pink unicorn standing next to me, but can the fact that you can't disprove this be used as evidence that there is a pink unicorn standing next to me? Of course not. The burden of proof lies with the person making the claim not with the person denying the claim. The onus is on the DBZ fans to PROVE that Cell can bust a solar system. I certainly can't disprove the claim that Cell can bust a solar system, but this can't be used as evidence that he can. And Cell NEVER busted a solar system, therefore, I'm justified in saying that Cell is not a solar system buster.

In any event, this thread isn't about Cell it's about Bills. And in the case of Bills the "evidence" for him being a galaxy buster is even more flimsy. Bills never busted a galaxy, there are no data books and/or hand books that claim he can, and Akira Toriyama never said he could. There's one statement made by Piccolo about the galaxy being in peril or some such nonsense to that effect; but there's no reason to take Piccolo's statement as fact.

I've already pointed out all the ways SS would utterly crush Bills with powers/abilities that Bills has no answer for, so I'm pretty much done here. Good day.

@laflux: You haven't proven that my logic is faulty, you've merely asserted something, namely, that the author's word is final. So what? I disagree. For example, the Naruto databooks claim that Haku using the Demonic Mirroring Ice Crystals jutsu is light speed. This is obviously not true, LOL. It would mean that everybody genin level and above in Naruto is FTL. Here's a bet: make a thread with Naruto vs Superman in a foot race and argue that Naruto is faster. If you do, I'll concede the point.

When on panel feats and author statements conflict, at best, what we're left with is an irresolvable contradiction. For me personally, though, on panel feats are a better form of evidence simply because there can be no dispute when you SEE the character performing the feat.

someone with common sense

#107 Edited by debeze (243 posts) - - Show Bio

@uberhikari: ROFL .

then TOAA is sh*t and he can be defeated by chiatozu cause ive never seen him do sh*t lOl............

bills is ALTEAST solar system buster ,therre will be a movie after this movie maybe it will show his feats maybe and a manga too. what kind of shitty god of destruction would he be if he cant even bust a solar system

said it a million times whis his master said he could destroy the solar system in a blink of an eye (with ease) , and he knows what bills is capable of ,if he didnt destroy a solar system in the movie it was because it wouldnt go with the story ,anime is different is not so random were characters tell their enemy their feats for half the book and then attack them.

if they didnt show him desttoying a solarsystem it doesnt mean he cant

@xlab3000: proof

#108 Posted by debeze (243 posts) - - Show Bio

bump

#110 Posted by New_World_Order (12653 posts) - - Show Bio

@debeze: Did the new DBZ movie come out yet?

#111 Edited by xlab3000 (3157 posts) - - Show Bio
#112 Edited by valfranx (61 posts) - - Show Bio

Akira Toriyama, the author of Dragon Ball Z, and the company he works with are the only official source of information regarding Dragon Ball Z. Fantasy is not reality. People’s opinions about what they shouldn’t be able to do can’t matter at all. Internet nerds’ opinions don’t count. Akira Toriyama wrote in the manga (Japanese comic book) that Cell could destroy the solar system and the company printed material that confirms it. Comic books are fantasies and break the laws of physics all the time by having people run at millions of times the speed of light and other such impossibilities. If such a thing were even possible, the friction alone would incinerate everything. Now to the point, below are counter arguments to arguments that are in common use. Following that is proof from the manga and official printed material.

Argument: “Cell was going to destroy the solar system one planet at a time.”

Counter Argument: “That line never appeared in the manga or anime.”

Argument: “Cell was going to destroy the sun.”

Counter Argument: “That statement never appeared in the manga or anime. What Akira Toriyama, the author, wrote for Cell is “I’ve already gathered enough ki power to blow away not only the Earth, but the solar system as well!” That’s what appears in the manga and is therefore OFFICIAL.” (Thanks to DBZGTKOSDH at kanzenshuu for the correction.) The solar system includes the sun and all of the planets. It shouldn’t be taken out of context.

Argument: “Cell was bluffing and lied.”

Counter Argument: “Internet nerds said that. But neither the author of the story nor the company he worked for have ever said that. The characters in the story never said that either. It is NOT official and NEVER appears in the story ever.”

Argument: “There’s no additional proof Cell can do that.”

Counter Argument: “The Japanese company printed a guidebook that states Cell can destroy the solar system. This is NOT Internet Nerd opinion, but from OFFICIAL SOURCES; it COUNTS infinitely more than ANY NERD’S OPINION, mine included.”

Argument: “Cell’s beam didn’t look that impressive.”

Counter Argument: “Piccolo, when he was weak at the beginning of the story, could blow up the moon with a casual normal level energy blast WITHOUT CHARGING HIS ENERGY. While at that same level of power he could not harm Raditz, Goku’s evil brother, so Piccolo CHARGED HIS ENERGY and focused his energy into a small and narrow beam and killed Raditz while Goku held him, so small and narrow beams are usually at higher power than wide beams.

Argument: “The solar system is too big for a small blast to destroy.”

Counter Argument: Piccolo blew up the moon with a beam, the front of which was like 6 INCHES wide. The moon is 2,000 MILES across. 5,280 feet in a mile. Times 2000 miles is 10,560,000 FEET. 6 INCHES DIVIDES INTO THAT 21,120,000 TIMES. The moon was 21 million and 120 thousand times larger than the beam that destroyed it!

You can click the images to make them larger. And Super Saiyan Grade 5 was the original name of Super Saiyan 2 in Japan BEFORE Super Saiyan 3 had been invented. The name changed after that.

This is the version that was released for Hong Kong. What it says is translated below. Translation:

“Everything’s super!! Declare this invincible Saiya-Power!!”

“Super Saiyan Grade Five (Strongest Form). An aura with sparks like flashes of lightning and an upright, combative hairstyle are the distinguishing features of this, the strongest Saiyan warrior! One’s personality also becomes aggressive; even the ordinarily gentle Gohan started to enjoy battle! Its power is enough to push back even Cell’s energy bullet, which had enough force to blow away the Solar System!”

A Super Saiyan that has achieved a different evolution!!

Broli appeared in the movie “Burn Up!! A Red-Hot, Raging, Super Fierce Fight”. His final form resembles Super Saiyan Grade Three. But his speed is ultra first-class, and he could be called a Super Saiyan who has achieved a different evolution than Goku and the others!”

WARNING: If you go by the English dub of Dragon Ball Z, you should know there were a lot of translation errors.

Regarding Dragon Ball Z, the Outskirts Battle Dome and Screw Attack do not speak for the manga, do not speak for the author, do not speak for the company, do not speak for the characters, and do not speak for anyone or anything other than themselves. And if they had done such a good job researching and were so reliable, they wouldn’t have made the mistakes that they’ve made and overlooked vital material. Their fan calculations are based on personal opinion since no official source has ever given numbers regarding any character’s speed or strength. The most we ever get from official sources are power levels and statements about what they can destroy.

What’s happening is that people who are ignorant of Dragon Ball Z or who don’t want Dragon Ball Z to win are accusing legitimate evidence of being invalid and using excuses like “outlier” to ignore the truth. An “outlier” is something that doesn’t fit in with a pattern. What gives people who have nothing to do with the manga, the author, or the company the right to decide what an “outlier” is and therefore should be thrown out? It’s truly absurd to try to win by throwing out evidence that proves you lose. And I know they’re biased because I’ve had dozens of people scream at me like animals and curse me out. They hate losing so much they lie, ignore, and take things out of context, so I’ve decided to post the truth where they cannot reach to condemn.

—————————————————————————————————————————————————————————–

SOME PEOPLE CLAIM THAT EXPLOSIONS IN DRAGON BALL Z ARE WEAK BECAUSE THERE’S ONLY A SMALL HOLE. THIS IS ABSURD! THE CHARACTERS HAVE THE ABILITY TO WIDEN OR NARROW THEIR BEAMS TO A SINGLE POINT OF FOCUS! IT ACTUALLY MAKES THE BEAM STRONGER.

Claim Dragon Ball Z characters can’t concentrate their energy: FALSE

In Dragon Ball Z, Piccolo with a power level between 300 – 400, blows up the moon casually with one hand. That same Piccolo can’t harm Raditz (Goku’s evil brother) with that same level of attack. So how does Piccolo kill Raditz? Does he use a giant explosion? NO, he does not! Piccolo charges his energy up for minutes and concentrates it into a tiny beam that has several times the power of a moon destroying blast and kills Raditz with a tiny wound only inches across. This is proof that Dragon Ball Z characters can concentrate their attacks to small radiuses. This destroys the argument that they can’t destroy planets because they only created a small crater. Raditz even says in dialogue that they can raise their power level by concentrating their energy to a single spot.

Argument: “Cell’s beam didn’t look that impressive.”

Counter Argument: “Piccolo, when he was weak at the beginning of the story, could blow up the moon in seconds with a casual normal level energy blast WITHOUT CHARGING HIS ENERGY. While at that same level of power he could not harm Raditz, Goku’s evil brother, so Piccolo CHARGED HIS ENERGY and focused his energy into a small and narrow beam and killed Raditz while Goku held him, so small and narrow beams are usually at higher power than wide beams.

Argument: “The solar system is too big for a small blast to destroy.”

Counter Argument: Piccolo blew up the moon with a beam, the front of which was like 6 INCHES wide. The moon is 2,000 MILES across. 5,280 feet in a mile. Times 2000 miles is 10,560,000 FEET. 6 INCHES DIVIDES INTO THAT 21,120,000 TIMES. The moon was 21 million and 120 thousand times larger than the beam that destroyed it!

THE CHARACTERS HAVE THE ABILITY TO WIDEN OR NARROW THEIR BEAMS TO A SINGLE POINT OF FOCUS! IT ACTUALLY MAKES THE BEAM STRONGER.

Although real world physics don’t apply to fantasy, a supernova would have 10 octillion megatons. That’s 10 decillion tons. Super Saiyan 2 Gohan killed Cell, and Goku as a Super Saiyan 2 is stronger.

So now since we’ve confirmed Cell can generate a solar nova and blow up the solar system, let’s see this power progression with Super Saiyan Multipliers added.

Cell and Super Saiyan 2 level warriors can make supernovas

Super Saiyan 3 increases that by 4 times to 4 supernovas

Super Saiyan 4 increases that by 10 times to 40 supernovas

KAMEHAMEHA allows Goku to increase his normal power by 1.5 times. Goku focuses his energy to a single spot to make it more powerful, so that’s 60 supernovas of destructive force.

Those are the facts from the manga and guidebook,the official sources ; and I’ve explained why the beams can be small and have more power than large beams. Now there.

Claim that Goku can only lift 40 tons: FALSE.

Goku was using BUKUJUTSU (Sky Dance Art/Technique) while lifting weight. According to Akira Toriyama (the man who invented Goku and the story) in the Super Exciting Guide (a Dragon Ball Z guidebook), using bukujutsu makes it almost impossible for Goku to lift weight. So the scene was actually quite impressive. Muscle strength means little in Dragon Ball Z, supernatural KI energy is used to perform superhuman acts and KI follows rules such as the above. This means we actually have no idea how strong Goku is or what he can lift. But we do know that while flying, it’s incredibly hard for him to lift anything. Not that it matters since Dragon Ball Z characters mainly use their energy to strike hard and cause explosions.

It’s worth pointing out that it basically says the reason Goku’s weight training in Heaven was so effective was that he used Bukujutsu to float in midair as he used the weights, which made it much harder. It also says his image training/meditation was a means to raise his maximum ki, as muscle training has a limit. Toriyama mentioned there being limits to how much training your muscles could do and needing ki to overcome that limit in the book’s interview.

Some things of interest is that it describes Gohan’s training as being based mostly on strengthening and learning to control his ki, while Vegeta’s training is described as training his muscles to the limit. And as a result of Vegeta’s training, it says he awakened to Super Saiyan 2, so that’s another data point in that debate (Daizenshuu 7 also says Vegeta acquired Super Saiyan 2 through training). http://www.neoseeker.com/forums/88/t1516050-super-exciting-guide-training-section/

So how strong is Goku really? Well, no one knows, but let’s go by feats. Goku fought Kid Buu as a Super Saiyan 3 and was nearly even with him. Kid Buu is the monster who kills creator gods. Let that speak for itself.

Claim that Goku can’t use instant teleportation in battle: FALSE.

In the manga, Goku only fails to teleport in battle once when he’s too freaked out Kid Buu is destroying the earth. Goku has failed to save the earth after nearly 40 years of defending it, and the villain has won, so Goku freaks out and can’t concentrate enough to teleport. That’s literally the only time in the entire manga he fails to teleport in battle. Goku uses teleportation in battle multiple times against Cell and Buu.

Goku’s energy output ISN’T limited to his durability. Goku uses supernatural energy that doesn’t follow the laws of physics, YET THE ENERGY ISN’T MAGIC. Goku can go beyond his durability, but can kill or” beat himself” if he’s not careful.

A main point of Dragon Ball Z is that cosmic level warriors can destroy celestial objects. Deal with it. Don’t apply too much logic to it because all these things are impossible in the real world anyway. Let me remind you Frieza did this in his first form.Toriyama loved the special and included it as events that happened, so don’t go there by saying it’s not canon or whatever excuse to try to win by throwing out evidence.

Frieza destroyed planet Vegeta easily with a single finger in his first form and this was referenced in the manga. Frieza, in his first form, was nowhere near Super Saiyan Goku’s level. According to Dazenshuu 7, at least 200 “kilis” can destroy 1 -2 planets. How large those planets are, aren’t mentioned; nor is whether or not Goku and the others were at full power.

However, Akira Toriyama’s dialogue about Cell being able to destroy the solar system, including the sun, does makes sense and here’s why. Planet Vegeta had ten times earth’s gravity. If one does the silly thing of applying the laws of physics to a fantasy that started as a gag manga, then planet Vegeta had to be much more massive than the earth. It was NEVER stated to have artificial gravity.

Although Toriyama didn’t think it through too well, he intended Cell to be a solar system destroyer and yet have the “Kilis” be an accurate measurement of power in the Buu Saga. Frieza did destroy planet Vegeta in his first form in the manga too as the scene was referenced there. And final form Frieza has 226 times the power level of his first form. Every villain after that was stronger and stronger and stronger. The problem is Toriyama doesn’t seem to realize how much more energy it takes to destroy a star compared to a planet.

Of course we’re applying logic to a fantasy were characters throw supernatural energy at each other and the energy, according to Akira Toriyama, is made of courage (YUKI), being in your right mind(SHOKI), and health(GENKI). How do planets and stars have this abstract concept energy? Plot holes? Well, whatever, it’s a fantasy. It doesn’t have to make sense.

In Star Wars, Han Solo used a measure of distance like it was a measure of time because George Lucas didn’t even know the difference at the time. So in conclusion, Babidi’s “Kili” system is a possible plot hole in the Dragon Ball Z universe because the characters got stronger and certainly didn’t get weaker as the story progressed. All in all, Dragon Ball Z is confusing to try to figure out because the author is forgetful and did not use logic, but pure imagination.

Internet Nerd: “Those are outliers and Outskirts Battle Dome and Screw Attack said this and that and used math.”

Me: “Why are you ignoring what the author wrote in favor of your worthless opinions about someone else’s fantasy world? Since when does a fantasy world obey real world physics and logic? Where in the manga or anime did those calculations appear? When did the Japanese company or Akira Toriyama, the author, ever invent those? None of the characters ever called them outliers or hyperboles, where did you get that idea from? Why do you ignore official sources from the Dragon Ball Z copyright holders and creators like guidebooks, yet insist that you know better than the people who invented it and have been in the business for decades?”

ABILITY TO TAKE AN EXPLODING PLANET.

In Dragon Ball Z, body durability depends on energy level. The lower the energy, the less damage you can take. Frieza, at his lowest energy level ever, still survived a planet exploding. But at his highest energy level, couldn’t take Goku’s punches and spat up blood. Goku even blew half of Frieza’s head off with an energy blast while planet Namek’s explosion did no more visible damage to him. Then Frieza got even stronger than ever before and came to earth, only to be cut up by Trunks’ sword. Frieza, at his strongest ever, can’t take Trunks’ sword, but at his weakest ever, survives an exploding planet. It’s important to note, the stronger the characters get, the larger their energy is, so an explosion that destroys a planet can actually have much more energy than a previous planetary explosion earlier on in the series. Same sized explosion, but far more power. That’s why weaker characters can survive them, but stronger characters can die from them later on. It’s because the blast of the same size has MUCH MORE energy inside of it.

———————————————————————————————————————————————————————————-

————————————————————————-NON MANGA BELOW———————————————————————————————————

————————————————————————–NON MANGA BELOW——————————————————————————————————–

I COVER NON-MANGA MATERIAL AT THIS POINT, NOT TO STRENGTHEN MY ARGUMENT, BUT BECAUSE IT’S BROUGHT UP A LOT. I’m trying to address it because people will bring it up and I can’t avoid it.

Speaking of celestial objects, Broli AKA Brolly, in a non-canon movie (NEVER PART OF THE MANGA), somehow destroys a galaxy in an unspecified amount of time. That galaxy was truly destroyed, it’s not up for debate. In the Japanese version King Kai says it’s under attack and then says it was “torn up.” Some stars and planets are shown to remain. That means Brolly blew it up in pieces, but spared some areas of the galaxy for unknown reason. But most of it is gone. Click on the images to make them bigger. Remember, a galaxy is over 100 billion stars, so even millions remaining could count as it being destroyed but still having ruined bits of it left.

This is an actual on screen feat. Are you calling all the writers and artists liars? Remember,in the real world nothing like this is possible. A fantasy is a fantasy. Simply accept it.

text full with images

http://abear77.wordpress.com/2013/03/20/dragon-ball-z-ignorance/

#113 Edited by xeon1cs (1479 posts) - - Show Bio

@valfranx: Okay, Cell is a solar system buster.

I guess Sentry truly does have the power of one million exploding suns. That makes him one of the most powerful characters in all of fiction.

#114 Posted by SonDeathEater (428 posts) - - Show Bio

Well said valfranx

#115 Posted by NeonGameWave (7712 posts) - - Show Bio
#116 Posted by xlab3000 (3157 posts) - - Show Bio
#118 Edited by God_Spawn (37387 posts) - - Show Bio

@debeze: Watch the cursing, please. Censor it if you have to swear.

Moderator
#119 Edited by debeze (243 posts) - - Show Bio

@xlab3000: wikis... lolll

Durability: At least island level+ (tanked Piccolo’s Hyper Explosive Demon Wave)

they are using sh*t from dragonball! LAWL!

I stopped reading after that lmfao.

wikis are written by common people like you and me.

#120 Posted by xlab3000 (3157 posts) - - Show Bio

@debeze: I don't use wikis no more not after valfranx huge post

#121 Edited by NeonGameWave (7712 posts) - - Show Bio

Even if Bills were to only be a Solar System Buster there is no evidence to suggest that Silver Surfer would be able to even survive an attack like that from Bills, he gets knocked around by weaker blasts and attacks. Bills is also the better fighter so he wouldn`t allow Silver Surfer the chance to attack him up close or use any deadly attacks also he fights and travels at MFTL speeds, when he fought Goku he was only using 70% of his power not 100%.

Uis warns everyone to be careful what they say; if anything rubs Birus the wrong way, he will destroy the entire solar system in no time at all.

Rather than disapproving the idea of him being able to galaxy bust it actually further supports the idea, this is coming from his master Whis who is more powerful and he said in no time at all, as I have said before there is no indication to suggest that it would require Bills to use his true power, Whis meant with absolute ease so him being able to destroy a galaxy wouldn`t be so far fetch considering the idea that even Bills has been around for a long time and has destroyed many forms of life as he the God of Destruction for the entire Universe. He maintains balance for the universe, he`s destroyed countless of planets and stars as well as other forms of life, The Supreme Kais create life, stars and planets, Bills as the opposite force destroys these planets and stars also Bills like I said is an amazing combatant evidence is when he exploited pressure points instantly when he stomped Goku and the rest of the Z Fighters with no trouble.

Akira Toriyama:"When it comes to battle, the most important thing is KI SIZE, and its control. Of course, “ki” also includes such spiritual power as energy/vigor [genki] and bravery [yuuki], and being in one’s right mind [shouki] (note 11). There’s a limit to physical strength, no matter how much you toughen it up, and the only way to overcome that it is with “ki”. I think that it was through turning ki into formidable power that Goku drew closer to being the strongest warrior in the universe"

As said by Akira Toriyama here, ki and ki control is a major factor when in regards to the distinguishing of feats, this is how strength, speed, durability and etc is accessed. It is accessed through ki which separates DBZ characters from comic book characters when in terms of the understanding of feats and their representational nature. By saying one can`t accomplish something just because they haven`t done it, is flawed logic and completely misunderstands the idea associating with one`s capabilities for example, just because someone hasn`t ride a bike before does that mean they can`t do it? Especially when they showed or displayed the potential to do it? Also by that logic, of Bills not being able to destroy a galaxy or Cell not being able to destroy a solar system would mean Vegito wouldn`t be able to destroy a planet because he hasn`t shown the ability to do it even though weaker characters have done so and also the reason why it is important to realize the point about there being nothing to disapprove the idea is because if there is no evidence to contradict it then there wouldn`t be evidence to argue by and it wouldn`t make sense to dismiss something that hasn`t been proven wrong or contradicted. These following points are important in regards to this following fight.

1. Silver Surfer`s transmutation won`t work on Bills, Majin Buu`s transmutation ability was ineffective and Silver Surfer has yet to shown that he can perform this ability on a god like Bills instead of lesser beings who have a weaker defense.

2. Silver Surfer lacks in the combat department. Bills is a trained fighter and mastered one at that also he has more experience and he easily defeated amazing fighters such as Goku, Vegeta, Piccolo and Gohan. Bills would discover blind spots and would strategize also he could target Silver Surfer`s pressure points or weak spots.

3. Bills has been blasted by an attack that is way above planetary level Vegeta had used up all of his energy in one concentrated attack and as we all know concentrated explosions in many cases are far more worse than expansive ones. Vegeta reverted back to his base form, that is how much force was exerted and Vegeta was bloodlusted too. This attack did nothing to Bills. Has Silver Surfer ever used any type of attack that is above planetary level?

4. Bills is MFTL in combat and flight speed this is him holding back as evidently proven when he fought against a SSJG Goku who was going all out. Instant Transmission has even failed miserably and Bills still outpaces Goku even when he moves instantaneously and Bills manages to send Goku across the world with simple punches.

Its not about raw power that would decide this fight although Bills is superior in that area its about skill and combat ability, this is where Bills exceeds over the Silver Surfer.

#122 Posted by pooty (10863 posts) - - Show Bio

Couldn't SS win with a mental attack?

#124 Edited by xeon1cs (1479 posts) - - Show Bio

@neongamewave: I mean...Silver Surfer has been in comics for like 40~ years. As opposed to Bills who has appeared for a grand total of like 60 minutes. Using the argument that he's been beaten by weaker attacks isn't really that relevant, since in 99% of those scenarios, that wasn't bloodlusted/no morals Silver Surfer.

Bills is more certainly not superior to Norrin in raw power and technique. He may be a better fighter, but there's really nothing to lead anyone to believe he's more powerful than him.

#125 Edited by NeonGameWave (7712 posts) - - Show Bio

@xeon1cs: It doesn`t change the facts in regards to Silver Surfer`s durability and has Silver Surfer ever displayed an ability that is above planetary level? Bills took attacks that are way above planetary level and was fine with no scratch whatsoever. Silver Surfer has never survived a Solar System or galaxy busting attack also when Bills was fighting against Goku he wasn`t bloodlusted or he wasn`t the one to have a lack of morals, he didn`t even use 100% of his power he only used 70% and he still easily overpowered Goku who received a massive boost in power.

Bills has more raw power, has Silver Surfer ever shown to bust a planet at least? He has the versatility advantage but Bills is the better fighter and is more experienced in that category, him having the combat ability means a lot.

#126 Edited by NeonGameWave (7712 posts) - - Show Bio

@xlab3000: I`ve seen the feats and it is a really good Respect Thread but nothing there suggests that Silver Surfer would be able to survive a galaxy busting attack or at least a solar system busting one. Whis, Bills` master even said Bills in a fit of rage would have the Solar System destroyed instantly with no trouble at all and when he fought against Goku he was only using 70% of his power not 100%, he still overpowered Goku and he held back by a lot. Bills even tanked attacks that are way above planetary level such as a bloodlusted Vegeta`s concentrated attack that required him to use all of his ki energy and a massive Kamehameha Wave from Goku that contains the SSJG power, Bills tanked it and was fine right after. The only advantage I believe Silver Surfer has is versatility but most of his critical attacks won`t work such as transmutation and TP. Bills is the greater fighter, tactician and he has more experience within this scenario he will go all out and use his strongest attacks. His fists and kicks will hurt Silver Surfer a lot too, he will target Silver Surfer in all of his pressure point areas.

Unless Silver Surfer can produce an attack that is greater than this, he won`t be able to make a dent on Bills or even a scratch this concentrated attack came from a bloodlusted and motivated Vegeta who used up all of his ki energy this is Vegeta right after the Buu Saga he has been training since then and has become a lot stronger, this attack did 0% in terms of damage and effect.

#128 Posted by xeon1cs (1479 posts) - - Show Bio

@neongamewave: He created a black hole with literally zero effort on his part. And there's still not really anything to suggest he can't just atomize Bills.

#129 Posted by NeonGameWave (7712 posts) - - Show Bio

@xlab3000: Thanks for the link and I agree, Silver Surfer is very powerful indeed but I don`t think he can stand up to a bloodlusted Bills who is using 100% of his power, Bills has destroyed planets and stars also, as he produces attacks that are far above planetary level, Silver Surfer to my knowledge has survived planetary attacks but not solar system busting ones. Silver Surfer is one of my top favorite Marvel characters probably would be in a top 10 list of mine but he can`t beat Bills, SSJG Goku he probably can beat but Bills is too powerful he still managed to tank an attack from a bloodlusted Vegeta who used up 100% of his ki power even when Vegeta fought against Cell and used Final Flash he did not revert back to base form that attack threatened to destroy the planet but Vegeta focused it and Goku with the SSJG power which contains energy and ki power from Gohan, Vegeta, Trunks, Goten and Pan performed a kamehameha wave and the attack hit Bills head on yet he was left with no scratch. Silver Surfer has never shown levels of power in concentrated attacks that are Solar System level neither Galaxy level, Bills on the other hand has this power and he overpowered a SSJG Goku with only 70% of his power through that percentage he was fighting at FTL-MFTL speeds, outpacing Instant Transmission, producing earth shattering shockwaves when colliding with Goku, and holding back. Bills in my opinion would be skyfather level while Silver Surfer evidently is herald level and Thanos as well as Thor were even able to compete with Silver Surfer at some given points, Bills>>>>>>>>Thanos and Thor. Also Bills has the greater striking power and skill when it comes to H2H as with his held back strike was able to send Goku across the world and create shockwaves that leveled as well as shattered earth, Bills was not bloodlusted or did not have no morals either In this scenario he is bloodlusted and has no morals so he would go all out.

#130 Edited by NeonGameWave (7712 posts) - - Show Bio

@xeon1cs said:

@neongamewave: He created a black hole with literally zero effort on his part. And there's still not really anything to suggest he can't just atomize Bills.

Bills is MFTL in combat speed and Bills was holding back 30% of his true power also Bills wouldn`t allow Silver Surfer to do something like that, can`t Bills just strike Silver Surfer in all of his pressure points or punch his cranium out with the force of his blows? Goku in Dragon Ball channeled ki into his fist and increased his strength, Bills can do the same and more.

#131 Edited by valfranx (61 posts) - - Show Bio

Bills travel for earth, using pure speed of displacement:

note:

Vegeta effortlesly dodging lasers in his base form in high gravity

Bills and Whis actually cross all of other world, heaven and Hell and snake way, but all the dimensional walls between and even the universe and the North galaxy in seconds to fly to Earth from king kais planet, that's mftl.

The Set-Up of the DB World

Fundamentally, the DB world is a giant pokeball. The top half of the pokeball is the afterlife, and the bottom half is split between the regular universe that Goku and friends call home, and the Demon Realm that Dabra rules. There’s not really any name given for this giant ball thingy, but I’ll call it the “macrocosm”. The Kaioshin live in their own separate realm outside of the macrocosm, which revolves around the rest of the macrocosm like a moon. None of this is apparent from the manga, but Toriyama eventually drew a map of the DB world showing all this. In the Super Exciting Guide: Character Volume, he explained that he designed the DB world in this way to make it easy for both himself and his readers to understand.

more info about the concept of the universe dbz:

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=11596

about the galaxy north:

宇宙

The UniverseThe endless, expansive space wrapped around every celestial body that exists in the Living World. Along with the "Demon Realm," it is a single, large world in the Living World. In the world of Dragon Ball, the universe is located beneath the World Beyond, and it is hermetically sealed by a barrier that is engraved with a strange design. Within the universe, there are "nebulae" composed of innumerable stars, and there are "galaxies" composed of innumerable nebulae. There is a ruling Kami for each galaxy. Earth resides in the Solar System, a galactic nebula on the outskirts of the North Galaxy.

[Par.]

A "Cosmic Police Organization" exists in the universe. However, they lack the fighting ability to oppose Freeza and the Saiyans.

(Daizenshuu 4, Page 72)

銀河

GalaxyA gathering of local planets in the universe. Planets gather and form a nebula, and beyond that, a collection of gathered nebulae is called a galaxy. The four Kaiou who rule over the east, west, south, and north [sections] of the universe actually govern these galaxies. Because the Kami in the Heavenly Realm and the Kaiou supervise the galaxies that exist infinitely in all the universe, the sections known as the East, West, South, and North Galaxies are denominations that came into use through their duty.

ps: about the term used in serie, "quadrant" isn't assigning a new name. Unless the dub put emphasis on what a quadrant means in regards to the story. I don't think it confuses the issue. A quadrant is 1/4 of the circumference of a circle. In this context, it literally means 1/4 of the universe, which is true.

quadrant and galaxy north are synonyms.

bonuses:

gotenks Koed by Bills:

#132 Edited by NeonGameWave (7712 posts) - - Show Bio

@valfranx: Another awesome post! I would say Bills is galaxy buster considering the fact that his master Whis even said he could destroy the Solar System in a blink of an eye or in no time all which means he probably wouldn`t even need to power up or use a high percentage of his power. Also Bills has been around for many years and he has destroyed planets, stars and other forms of life throughout the entire universe, him being able to blow up a galaxy seems pretty logical considering his authoritative and cosmically influenced power within his position as God of Destruction also many forget the fact that Piccolo says the galaxy will cease to be right after Whis` statement about Bills destroying the Solar System in the blink of an eye, he probably knows that Bills possesses the power to destroy a galaxy as Whis said in no time at all right just before what Piccolo stated. Bills even held back 30% of his true power when he fought against SSJG Goku and he only used 70% yet he still was able to easily overpower him, I think Bills is too powerful for the Silver Surfer to handle beings below Bills such as Thanos, Nova and Thor are even able to compete with the Silver Surfer.

#133 Posted by isaac_clarke (5448 posts) - - Show Bio

@thc said:

Bills: God of destroying universes

versus

Silver Surfer: Herald to the God of destroying planets

mismatch anyone?

Galactus is the Devourer of Worlds, his actual high-end fights nearly destroy the universe. If anyone actually sporting a power-set somewhat similar to the Surfer, you might have a point. The issue is, Bill was having troubles putting down Goku's supped up new form and Goku's the guy that can get killed by a heart virus. So much for the 'universe' destroyer that destroys planets.

@xeon1cs: Based on the fact that Majin Buu used his transmutation ability on Bills and it had no effect. Also has Silver Surfer`s transmutation ever worked on a god before or anything of that same power?

Buu's transformation is superficial. Namely why Vegito didn't die when he became a snack. That is, unless you believe, DBZ characters don't require a brain, heart, lungs, etc to function, fight or even think.

The Silver Surfer on the other hand? He actually plays with your atomic structure. Hell at this point the Silver Surfer doesn't even require a physical body to survive anymore.

#134 Posted by isaac_clarke (5448 posts) - - Show Bio

@debeze said:

@uberhikari: ROFL .

then TOAA is sh*t and he can be defeated by chiatozu cause ive never seen him do sh*t lOl............

bills is ALTEAST solar system buster ,therre will be a movie after this movie maybe it will show his feats maybe and a manga too. what kind of shitty god of destruction would he be if he cant even bust a solar system

said it a million times whis his master said he could destroy the solar system in a blink of an eye (with ease) , and he knows what bills is capable of ,if he didnt destroy a solar system in the movie it was because it wouldnt go with the story ,anime is different is not so random were characters tell their enemy their feats for half the book and then attack them.

if they didnt show him desttoying a solarsystem it doesnt mean he cant

@xlab3000: proof

TOAA has actually appeared on panel and was shown having this sense of absolute control over reality. But more power to you. If anything, the Living Tribunal is a walking feat for the character.

#135 Posted by debeze (243 posts) - - Show Bio

@valfranx: i always wondered why are the planet namek and planet freeza so far away from each other? werent those planets in the same galaxy? if thats so the dbz unvierse isnt that big... because king kai said frieza was the ruler of the galaxy , not sure if he meant the north galaxy meaning the north kais quadrant as they reffer it in the english dub , you know how the eng dub is effed up

in our universe there is billions of galalxies so i dont know... im confused

#136 Posted by debeze (243 posts) - - Show Bio

@isaac_clarke: bills wasnt at full power when fighiting ssjg goku he was at 70%

#137 Edited by NeonGameWave (7712 posts) - - Show Bio

@isaac_clarke:

What makes Buu`s transmutation so different other than the method in which it is channeled? Has Silver Surfer ever performed these abilities on beings like Bills before?

Bills overpowered a SSJG Goku with only 70% of his power and he was moving at MFTL speeds within combat and travel. Has Silver Surfer ever produced any attacks that are above planetary? Or has he ever survived any attacks that are solar system level or galaxy level? Bills took an attack from a bloodlusted Vegeta who used up all of his ki energy and the attack left no scratch. Also its important to note that Vegeta usually doesn't power down so quickly when in using his strongest attacks that threaten to destroy the planet and when he fired his concentrated blast against Bills he powered down instantly, and he had no energy left that attack was definitely way above planetary level. He even took a Kamehameha from Goku who had the SSJG power but it left no scratch. His master Whis who trained him and knows him the best said the following:

Uis warns everyone to be careful what they say; if anything rubs Birus the wrong way, he will destroy the entire solar system in no time at all.

It was also translated as blink of an eye and there is no indication to suggest that it would require Bills to use his full power or even for him to power up, his master Whis obviously meant with ease or no trouble at all. Bills has the power to destroy galaxies and he has the better fighting technique, he could target Silver Surfer in all of his pressure points, he knocked out SSJ Vegeta, SSJ3 Goku, Piccolo, Gotenks, Android 18, Majin Buu and etc with light attacks or pressure point techniques, he wasn`t even trying at all when in doing these things. Bills was holding back against Goku and he even confirmed it along with his master Whis, he only utilized 70% of his power when he fought against SSJG Goku who used 80% and went all out yet he was able to overpower him remember Bills was not bloodlusted within that fight and he still managed to knock around a SSJG Goku who was using Instant Transmission also Bills along with Goku created earth shattering shockwaves. If Bills goes all out with his full power he will tear the Silver Surfer apart and have him blasted into oblivion.

Also saying Goku died to a heart virus is downgrading him in every way possible since we do not know the actual nature of the heart virus itself and where it came from. Bills is the God of Destruction for the entire universe, he maintains balance by destroying stars and planets also he destroys different forms of life, he must of destroyed many galaxies in his lifetime. Kid Buu has destroyed hundreds of worlds easily while hopping around from world to world, Bills has way more experience and its his job to destroy planets and stars, the Kais fear him also even the Eternal Dragon Shenron fears him. I read the official and entire synopsis and I know what happens in the movie. Even when Goku had received his new SSJG power he still failed miserably against a Bills who was holding back most of his true power.

#138 Edited by valfranx (61 posts) - - Show Bio

was thinking, broly could be a version of ssj god evil? in Their alternative timeline? In the movies Hirudegarn is called of god of destruction,

in the beginning of the movie 13, he was told that Could destroy the universe.

I remember the time akira said that the movies were like a different dimension (like future trunks), akira also mentions that dbgt and a future alternative. I believe it has a good chance of timelines alternatives be the 11 universes.

seeing that in each timeline has different, gods of destruction. Omega Shenron is the god od destruction in dbgt and in movies is Hirudegarn.

i will make the upload of a video about the statements of the destructive capabilities of all villains, all taken from the original language with English subtitles.

First of all, I’m not against the idea of ;the existence of other galaxies. just wanted to show there sources to support the idea that db and galaxies formed only by 4 galaxies/ quarters / areas. herms and seconds several others, the term galaxy, area or quadrant, the three mean the same thing, one quarter of the universe / space, if this a 1/4 of universe is formed by a collection of galaxies or a single galaxy, and another question.

the more I said, I’m not against the existence of other galaxies, because they can be used to explain some things that we see in the series.

for exemple:

assume that 1/4 of the universe and consists of a collection of galaxies, and we see in movie 8 broly destroying a galaxy, plus the voiceover says the southern galaxy is being attacked not destroyed, then a 1/4 of universe is formed for many galaxies, makes sense to the characters and voice actor say that the galaxy southern is being attacked and not destroyed, and the concept of their universe, the galaxy south = 1/4 of the matter in the universe (planets, stars, black holes, dark energy , galaxies ...) then we can assume that 1/4 of the universe and populated by many galaxies, this signifies

what we see at the beginning of the film and broly starting the destruction of galaxies in galaxy south / south area / south quadrant. where broly in its restricted form was destroying galaxies in southern quadrant in one shooter, as the film makes clear that broly was destroying the south quadrant in a matter of time, not at the opening of the movie, anyway destroy a quadrant (1/4 of the universe / space), that has 1/4 of the material universe, making no difference if 1/4 of the material and formed by a single galaxy or galaxies, broly had that be one shooter galaxy regular to destroy 1/4 of the universe, that was confirmed by, broly father, goku or king kai, who say broly destroyed much of southern quadrant. leaving only some stars and planets.

#139 Posted by isaac_clarke (5448 posts) - - Show Bio

@neongamewave said:

I just pointed out why, his transmutation is entirely superficial. As far as the incident with Vegito revealed, nothing fundamentally changes outside of appearance. Otherwise the change to a ball of candy would have been instantaneous death for Vegito, much less result in a situation where it is capable of thought / movement.

In what sense? What makes Bills atomic structure any different than anyone elses? Gods in Marvel are at least sporting physical forms that quite literally break reality and that could argument for why they aren't being atomized by characters (albeit Thor has been fused into pavement before). The Surfer on the other hand has been shown manipulating structures of worlds and stars (for example, with Quasar and Ronan - fusing a normal star with a magic black star). It isn't some sort of cheap imitation, but an actual transformation into the desired object / matter. He's done it more than once in the last few years without breaking a sweat, don't know why this would be any different.

@neongamewave said:

Bills overpowered a SSJG Goku with only 70% of his power and he was moving at MFTL speeds within combat and travel. Has Silver Surfer ever produced any attacks that are above planetary? Or has he ever survived any attacks that are solar system level or galaxy level? Bills took an attack from a bloodlusted Vegeta who used up all of his ki energy and the attack left no scratch. Also its important to note that Vegeta usually doesn't power down so quickly when in using his strongest attacks that threaten to destroy the planet and when he fired his concentrated blast against Bills he powered down instantly, and he had no energy left that attack was definitely way above planetary level. He even took a Kamehameha from Goku who had the SSJG power but it left no scratch. His master Whis who trained him and knows him the best said the following: Uis warns everyone to be careful what they say; if anything rubs Birus the wrong way, he will destroy the entire solar system in no time at all.

He destroyed two primordeal beings on Galactus' level of power using the Crunch (energies of creation) and defeated Uni-Lord using his own power against him. Those are his two big feats in terms of doing something beyond planetary in terms of destructive power. With the Primordeal Gods he was already dying according Tenebrous after taking multiple hits from both of them (mind you, Tenebrous on his own was able to fight Galactus for a time, before Aegis blindsided him). Destroying a solar system isn't at all beyond the Surfer's ability.

@neongamewave said:

It was also translated as blink of an eye and there is no indication to suggest that it would require Bills to use his full power or even for him to power up, his master Whis obviously meant with ease or no trouble at all. Bills has the power to destroy galaxies and he has the better fighting technique, he could target Silver Surfer in all of his pressure points, he knocked out SSJ Vegeta, SSJ3 Goku, Piccolo, Gotenks, Android 18, Majin Buu and etc with light attacks or pressure point techniques, he wasn`t even trying at all when in doing these things. Bills was holding back against Goku and he even confirmed it along with his master Whis, he only utilized 70% of his power when he fought against SSJG Goku who used 80% and went all out yet he was able to overpower him remember Bills was not bloodlusted within that fight and he still managed to knock around a SSJG Goku who was using Instant Transmission also Bills along with Goku created earth shattering shockwaves. If Bills goes all out with his full power he will tear the Silver Surfer apart and have him blasted into oblivion.

A blink of a eye is actually a very long time, especially for a character like the Silver Surfer.

The Silver Surfer torn apart? The only characters that have ever broken his skin have either been sporting Nigh-Omnipotence or have been Abstracts: Earth shattering shockwaves isn't a big deal to an individual that nearly destroyed Earth in his sleep (nightmare zing). The true irony of it all, even if he could "tear apart" the Silver Surfer, he wouldn't be dead. He's already been chopped to pieces on two occasions (good as new by the next page) and in more recent showings turned himself into the wind, snow, dirt, etc and was a disembodied voice as he chatted with the Defenders.

@neongamewave said:

Also saying Goku died to a heart virus is downgrading him in every way possible since we do not know the actual nature of the heart virus itself and where it came from. Bills is the God of Destruction for the entire universe, he maintains balance by destroying stars and planets also he destroys different forms of life, he must of destroyed many galaxies in his lifetime. Kid Buu has destroyed hundreds of worlds easily while hopping around from world to world, Bills has way more experience and its his job to destroy planets and stars, the Kais fear him also even the Eternal Dragon Shenron fears him. I read the official and entire synopsis and I know what happens in the movie. Even when Goku had received his new SSJG power he still failed miserably against a Bills who was holding back most of his true power.

It was meant to be downgrading in response to a silly post to begin with. The actual nature of the heart virus was a simple virus that was potentially lethal without the proper medicine from the future. It wasn't some sort of magic virus, simply a virus was capable of putting Goku down - opening an entire book of possibilities if we actually toyed with what radiation would have down to him. "Must have" isn't evidence, he as with any threat in DBU is a planet buster.

The latter portion of this comment makes one question why should we debate off nothing if you haven't even seen the film? Its just silly.

#140 Posted by xeon1cs (1479 posts) - - Show Bio

@isaac_clarke: I know he's only done it like once or twice, I think, but can't Surfer just force people onto the Astral Plane as well? Or couldn't be just mind rape Bills?

#141 Posted by isaac_clarke (5448 posts) - - Show Bio

@xeon1cs said:

@isaac_clarke: I know he's only done it like once or twice, I think, but can't Surfer just force people onto the Astral Plane as well? Or couldn't be just mind rape Bills?

Given the Surfer's tool box, telepathy is the least of Bills' concerns.

#143 Posted by valfranx (61 posts) - - Show Bio

for those who do not have an idea about what would be 4 galaxies that occupy 1/4 of the universe or a super cluster galaxy, simply imagine that the four galaxies/super cluster are the four sttgl occupying, 1 quarter of universe.

or take the observable universe and divide into 4 pieces.

note: according to the guides, our universe would be the session an even larger universe, which is inside a ball, to be more exact a kind of small multiverse with one of the other different universes, with different characteristics.

about the 12 universes, they would have the same format as the seventh universe.

do not believe, here is some interesting information about the size of the heaven .

Heaven

天国/tengoku

Translation: heaven, the heavenly country

Other Names: the Upper World (Viz)

As you might expect, Heaven is where those who Enma Daio judges to be good are allowed to go to. It’s a large planet directly above Enma’s palace. To reach Heaven, one must ride a special plane that takes off from an airport near Enma’s palace (this plane was part of Toriyama’s drawing of the afterlife, but only appears in the anime). The place where Goku is shown training for the 25th Tenkaichi Budoukai is identified in the daizenshuu as being Heaven. It’s shown as a pleasant, grassy place with round buildings. The sky has odd clouds, and a moon or something is visible at one point (maybe it’s Dai-Kaio’s planet?). In addition to Goku and Kaio, a dead dog and squid creature are also seen here. Kaio continues to hang out here for the rest of the Boo arc, since his planet was destroyed by Cell. When Dabra dies, Enma decides to send him here, on the logic that he’d be happy to go to Hell (this is mentioned in the manga, though it’s only in the anime that we actually get to see Dabra in Heaven).

In the anime, Videl, Bulma, and co. look for Gohan here after being killed by Boo. Heaven is said to be as wide as the entire universe itself, and seems to consist mostly of an immense field of flowers.

the mini-multiverse and divided thus:

§ Spirit Universe (Heaven, Hell, Otherworld)

§ Mortal Universe (Earth, Namek etc)

§ Demon Realm (Makaio, Makaioshin, Dabura)

§ Other Dimensions (ROSAT etc)

Kaioshin Realm (Lies Outside of Universe)

ps: about the 12 universes, they would have the same format as the seventh universe.

bonuses:

vegeta planet is bigger than Earth:

#144 Posted by OmgOmgWtfWtf (6955 posts) - - Show Bio

Silver Surfer goes intangible and proceeds to mentally dominate.

#145 Posted by debeze (243 posts) - - Show Bio

@valfranx: SO you are saying that our universe is bigger than dbz verse

#146 Edited by SlimJ87D (9389 posts) - - Show Bio

@god_spawn: I believe Bills is resistant to transmutation as Buu couldn't turn him into Candy from what I heard.

#147 Posted by God_Spawn (37387 posts) - - Show Bio

@slimj87d: I was just BSing to begin with. I really don't care if he can or can't.

Moderator
#148 Posted by SlimJ87D (9389 posts) - - Show Bio

To those that don't know how to use Wikis and think they're not reliable. Have you ever noticed at the very bottom that links to creditable sources and reading material? Try it next time.

#149 Posted by pooty (10863 posts) - - Show Bio

@debeze said:

@isaac_clarke: bills wasnt at full power when fighiting ssjg goku he was at 70%

I have not seen the movie but have read about it. When did he say he was only at 70%? I read that he was exhausted after the fight?

#150 Edited by debeze (243 posts) - - Show Bio

@pooty: yes whis(his master) told birusu he only used 70% of his power AFTER the fight and bills was gonna destroy earth but he thought about it and decided not to, and whis asked him why didnt he destroyed earth then he lied saying he didnt have any power left , goku was the one that was exhausted and gave up

during the battle bills even said he wanst fighiting at full power.