#1 Edited by SlimJ87D (9593 posts) - - Show Bio

I had a odd dream Plutonian was killing everyone. Gave me teh idea for this battle.

Bills

VS

Plutonian

Plutonian is at full power after his upgrades and training when he meets his parents.

#2 Posted by Strider92 (16238 posts) - - Show Bio

Plutonian should take this. Granted I haven't seen the new DBZ movie (and tbh don't plan to either) but given what i've heard about Goku and his fights I don't see anything that means this guy can contend with Plutonian.

#3 Posted by SlimJ87D (9593 posts) - - Show Bio

Bills has a clear combat experience advantage.

But Plutonian has taken punches where each contained the energy of a star and he has reacted fast enough to match the speed of a special signal that traveled from a satellite to Earth in a pico second.

#4 Posted by Theorder14 (1437 posts) - - Show Bio

Plutonian should take this. Granted I haven't seen the new DBZ movie (and tbh don't plan to either) but given what i've heard about Goku and his fights I don't see anything that means this guy can contend with Plutonian.

What's Plutonians feats and what is it that makes u so sure that he wins when u haven't even seen the movie yet? Does he have FTL combat speed?

#5 Edited by Strider92 (16238 posts) - - Show Bio

@theorder14: He's a reality warper who can theoretically make himself as fast and as strong as he wants.

#6 Posted by Theorder14 (1437 posts) - - Show Bio

@strider92:okay, i don't rly know alot about him but wasn't his speed only faster than thoughts? was it ever stated he had FTL combat speed? and what kind of reality warps feats does he have?

#7 Edited by uberhikari (2473 posts) - - Show Bio

I was thinking about a match up involving Bills vs Plutonian, but I thought Bills would be too much and didn't give it much thought. I'll have to think about this and then come back.

#8 Edited by monarch_prime (377 posts) - - Show Bio

Plutonian wins.

#9 Posted by SlimJ87D (9593 posts) - - Show Bio

@strider92:okay, i don't rly know alot about him but wasn't his speed only faster than thoughts? was it ever stated he had FTL combat speed? and what kind of reality warps feats does he have?

Plutonian at base form is superhuman. His parents said that his natural physiology increases his durability, strength, speed, etc and everything.

Now throwing some powers on top of that, he can manipulate the molecules of himself and the things he hits. He can further increase his own durability and decrease the durability of the objects he hits. At that time he was completely unaware of his powers, but once he met his celestial like parents he came to realize that on top of his already superman like physical body he had these matter manipulating powers and became even more powerful. Turning himself intangible, controlling matter like Magneto but with any type of element he wants. bending physics to his whim.

As for his speed, he has outraced a radio signal that travels at light speed after it was fired.

He did the same again against another signal that was FTL as it would reach its destination in a pico second from space to the other side of Earth. The signal again had a clear head start and Plutonian beat it there.

I HATE the way how these boards were redone. I would post all my scans here but I can no longer copy and paste. All his feats can be found here.

http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles-7/plutonian-vs-silver-surfer-747385/?page=1

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/6/60545/2233870-irr_35_020_super.jpg

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/6/60545/2233871-irr_35_021_super.jpg

http://img193.imageshack.us/img193/2137/irr2p16.jpg

http://img855.imageshack.us/img855/5447/irr2p17.jpg

http://img856.imageshack.us/img856/7522/irr2p18.jpg

http://img838.imageshack.us/img838/8172/irr17lerajecps021.jpg

#10 Edited by uberhikari (2473 posts) - - Show Bio

After thinking about this for a bit, remembering how Tony's powers work and some of his insane feats, Plutonian stomps hard. Bills doesn't have anything that can hurt Tony, and since Tony's power is psionics which allow him to bypass the normal durability of objects, there's nothing Bills can do to stop himself from getting mauled. Add to this the fact that Plutonian is WAY faster and its almost a spite match.

#11 Posted by AngryHulks (3001 posts) - - Show Bio

At his peak, Plutonian can warp reality, I don't think anyone from DBZ have ever encounters someone on that scope.

#12 Edited by SlimJ87D (9593 posts) - - Show Bio

Plutonian is also a telepath and can read peoples minds. Just couldn't do it to Qubic since Qubic prepared for it and developed devices like Magento's helmet in his head. So he could predict Bills moves.

Bills has resisted his molecules from being manipulated though, so not sure if Plutonian can harm him. But Bills probably can't harm a intangible Plutonian either.

Plutonian did have problems with energy users like Charybdis but this was pre-amp Plutonian. Not sure how energy attacks would affect him. We just know he could tank multiple star energized gravitational punches.

Not sure if that energy is purely gravitational or heat based, etc.

Bills energy attacks are Ki based. Ki based attacks like Akira said are kinetic like Cyclop's blasts. That being said, I speculate that since they are kinetic they are like a force. Since they are like a force than the gravity based attacks are similar. Bills does have that flame attack though.

That's all I can really add to this thread.

#13 Edited by AngryHulks (3001 posts) - - Show Bio

@slimj87d said:

Plutonian is also a telepath and can read peoples minds. Just couldn't do it to Qubic since Qubic prepared for it and developed devices like Magento's helmet in his head. So he could predict Bills moves.

Bills has resisted his molecules from being manipulated though, so not sure if Plutonian can harm him. But Bills probably can't harm a intangible Plutonian either.

Plutonian did have problems with energy users like Charybdis but this was pre-amp Plutonian. Not sure how energy attacks would affect him. We just know he could tank multiple star energized gravitational punches.

Not sure if that energy is purely gravitational or heat based, etc.

Bills energy attacks are Ki based. Ki based attacks like Akira said are kinetic like Cyclop's blasts. That being said, I speculate that since they are kinetic they are like a force. Since they are like a force than the gravity based attacks are similar. Bills does have that flame attack though.

That's all I can really add to this thread.

Plutonian seemingly have better transmutation power than Buu, and in the panel where Morpheus discuss about Plutonian's power mechanics, Plutonian decreases the durability (I think he said density to be precise) of the opponent when he delivers punch. I could infer that Plutonian could hurt virtually any material beings.

#14 Edited by uberhikari (2473 posts) - - Show Bio

@slimj87d: I've been trying to find video of the scene where Buu tries to turn Bills into candy, but I can't find it. And without seeing it it's hard to know precisely how Bills resisted being transmuted by Buu and, therefore, difficult to assess the limits of Bills resistance to transmutation. However, a couple of things needs to be noted.

First, Buu's candy beam works based on magic not telekinesis like Tony's abilities. So, this is really like comparing apples to oranges. If anything, this seems like a great magic resistance feat for Bills rather than a straightforward resistance to transmutation or molecular manipulation.

Second, Buu's candy beam and the way it's been used in the manga really defies logic, lol. When Vegito was turned into candy, for example, he was more like a disembodied consciousness that took the form of a piece of candy. Obviously, when something is genuinely transmuted that shouldn't be possible.

Then again, Buu's candy beam has worked on pretty much everybody without fail (it even worked on Vegito even though it was clear that Vegito outclassed him in every other way). So, perhaps Bills does have the ability to control his own molecules. Then the question becomes: Is Tony's psionic ability stronger than Bill's ability to control his own molecules? I don't know, Tony has some pretty impressive psionic feats. Plus, resisting transmutation doesn't mean you can resist having your durability bypassed.

#15 Posted by SlimJ87D (9593 posts) - - Show Bio

@slimj87d: I've been trying to find video of the scene where Buu tries to turn Bills into candy, but I can't find it. And without seeing it it's hard to know precisely how Bills resisted being transmuted by Buu and, therefore, difficult to assess the limits of Bills resistance to transmutation. However, a couple of things needs to be noted.

First, Buu's candy beam works based on magic not telekinesis like Tony's abilities. So, this is really like comparing apples to oranges. If anything, this seems like a great magic resistance feat for Bills rather than a straightforward resistance to transmutation or molecular manipulation.

Second, Buu's candy beam and the way it's been used in the manga really defies logic, lol. When Vegito was turned into candy, for example, he was more like a disembodied consciousness that took the form of a piece of candy. Obviously, when something is genuinely transmuted that shouldn't be possible.

Then again, Buu's candy beam has worked on pretty much everybody without fail (it even worked on Vegito even though it was clear that Vegito outclassed him in every other way). So, perhaps Bills does have the ability to control his own molecules. Then the question becomes: Is Tony's psionic ability stronger than Bill's ability to control his own molecules? I don't know, Tony has some pretty impressive psionic feats. Plus, resisting transmutation doesn't mean you can resist having your durability bypassed.

Transmutation is a little tricky. It depends if the resistor resists it before or instantly after.

Someone that resists before is resistant against magic while someone that resists instantly afterwards has control over their own molecules. The more powerful of the 2 would probably be someone like Sentry, he should be resistant to both affects as if you used magic, he still controls his own molecules. If you use the other, regardless he still has control over the end result.

I agree it is hard to figure out what kind of resistance Bill has.

#16 Posted by laflux (14998 posts) - - Show Bio

@killemall

Haven't you read every issue on Plutonian?

Online
#17 Edited by Killemall (18458 posts) - - Show Bio

@laflux said:

@killemall

Haven't you read every issue on Plutonian?

Yes i have , is there anything you want me to add or post here?

#18 Posted by AngryHulks (3001 posts) - - Show Bio

@slimj87d said:

@uberhikari said:

@slimj87d: I've been trying to find video of the scene where Buu tries to turn Bills into candy, but I can't find it. And without seeing it it's hard to know precisely how Bills resisted being transmuted by Buu and, therefore, difficult to assess the limits of Bills resistance to transmutation. However, a couple of things needs to be noted.

First, Buu's candy beam works based on magic not telekinesis like Tony's abilities. So, this is really like comparing apples to oranges. If anything, this seems like a great magic resistance feat for Bills rather than a straightforward resistance to transmutation or molecular manipulation.

Second, Buu's candy beam and the way it's been used in the manga really defies logic, lol. When Vegito was turned into candy, for example, he was more like a disembodied consciousness that took the form of a piece of candy. Obviously, when something is genuinely transmuted that shouldn't be possible.

Then again, Buu's candy beam has worked on pretty much everybody without fail (it even worked on Vegito even though it was clear that Vegito outclassed him in every other way). So, perhaps Bills does have the ability to control his own molecules. Then the question becomes: Is Tony's psionic ability stronger than Bill's ability to control his own molecules? I don't know, Tony has some pretty impressive psionic feats. Plus, resisting transmutation doesn't mean you can resist having your durability bypassed.

Transmutation is a little tricky. It depends if the resistor resists it before or instantly after.

Someone that resists before is resistant against magic while someone that resists instantly afterwards has control over their own molecules. The more powerful of the 2 would probably be someone like Sentry, he should be resistant to both affects as if you used magic, he still controls his own molecules. If you use the other, regardless he still has control over the end result.

I agree it is hard to figure out what kind of resistance Bill has.

To make things more complicated, Plutonian can in theory rewrite law of physics, probably at localized level.

#19 Edited by NeonGameWave (7712 posts) - - Show Bio

Bills is FTL in combat as well as travel speed, has thousands of years of combat experience, has destroyed stars, planets and worlds. He is also a galaxy buster as well but the Plutonian is extremely powerful in his own right.

#20 Posted by laflux (14998 posts) - - Show Bio

@killemall: Just about his status as a reality warper? I thought that's the potential he has to be, and that he isn't one ATM.

Online
#21 Posted by New_World_Order (12899 posts) - - Show Bio

Bills is FTL in combat as well as travel speed, has thousands of years of combat experience, has destroyed stars, planets and worlds. He is also a galaxy buster as well but the Plutonian is extremely powerful in his own right.

Galaxy buster? Shown it, or was it stated?

#22 Posted by BillzTheGodOfDestruction (71 posts) - - Show Bio

Bills is FTL in combat as well as travel speed, has thousands of years of combat experience, has destroyed stars, planets and worlds. He is also a galaxy buster as well but the Plutonian is extremely powerful in his own right.

it is for this reason bills stomps

#23 Edited by jaywray (631 posts) - - Show Bio

@thundergodswrath said:

@neongamewave said:

Bills is FTL in combat as well as travel speed, has thousands of years of combat experience, has destroyed stars, planets and worlds. He is also a galaxy buster as well but the Plutonian is extremely powerful in his own right.

Galaxy buster? Shown it, or was it stated?

Neither, it's speculative.

He's stated to be able to wipe out a solar system in an instant though, if that helps.

@uberhikari

said:

@slimj87d: I've been trying to find video of the scene where Buu tries to turn Bills into candy, but I can't find it. And without seeing it it's hard to know precisely how Bills resisted being transmuted by Buu and, therefore, difficult to assess the limits of Bills resistance to transmutation. However, a couple of things needs to be noted.

First, Buu's candy beam works based on magic not telekinesis like Tony's abilities. So, this is really like comparing apples to oranges. If anything, this seems like a great magic resistance feat for Bills rather than a straightforward resistance to transmutation or molecular manipulation.

Second, Buu's candy beam and the way it's been used in the manga really defies logic, lol. When Vegito was turned into candy, for example, he was more like a disembodied consciousness that took the form of a piece of candy. Obviously, when something is genuinely transmuted that shouldn't be possible.
Then again, Buu's candy beam has worked on pretty much everybody without fail (it even worked on Vegito even though it was clear that Vegito outclassed him in every other way). So, perhaps Bills does have the ability to control his own molecules. Then the question becomes: Is Tony's psionic ability stronger than Bill's ability to control his own molecules? I don't know, Tony has some pretty impressive psionic feats. Plus, resisting transmutation doesn't mean you can resist having your durability bypassed.

Hmm, I think it's pretty clear from the fact that it worked on Vegito that Ki is not what resists against Buu's transmutation, so there's only really 2 other options, 1 Bills has solid resistance to matter manipulation, or 2 he just happens to know Buus magic and can nullify it.

Given that he'd never met Buu before, id go with the former, but it's still debatable.

Is anyone able to shed some light on this Picosecond speed feat of Plutonians? I mean, he raced a signal and beat it to earth, but where did it start from? how far away from eart etc? That could either mean MFTL or barely FTL depending.

#24 Edited by ImperiexPrime (27 posts) - - Show Bio

Burisu wins this. He moves as MFTL speeds, his presence is not felt.

#25 Posted by Killemall (18458 posts) - - Show Bio

@laflux said:

@killemall: Just about his status as a reality warper? I thought that's the potential he has to be, and that he isn't one ATM.

His normal power is mind over matter, but if he fully understand his powers he could potentially become a reality warper.

Pretty sure i have posted it in more than one thread people dont even read my argument often :( Shame!

Lets try again, the scans below are from Irredeemable 25, if anyone wishes to check it out.

Firstly 3 pages of Qubit and Modeus discussing how his powers work (page 3-5)

So based on his observation Modeus summarises that Plutonian power isnt physical but rather mind over matter, something Qubit agrees (they are the 2 smartest people in Irredeemable verse), but Plutonian himself doesnt know this.

Then he goes on to say IF he moves from Kindergarden to Gradeschool, he can redefine reality, there is no evidence in either Irredeemable or Incorruptible that he ever leans his power enough to warp reality, nor do we see any evidence of him actually conciously warping reality, he acts as a normal brute despite how his power works, because he doesn't know it.

So its hard to argue Tony is an actual reality warper.

@jaywray said:

Is anyone able to shed some light on this Picosecond speed feat of Plutonians? I mean, he raced a signal and beat it to earth, but where did it start from? how far away from eart etc? That could either mean MFTL or barely FTL depending.

He is faster than light at least for travel purpose, we dont know how fast he can react or fight at.

BTW he never reacted in picosecond, what he understood was the battle report that the eternet was carrying was "picosecond" long. While its impressive he could detect a very , very short battle report, it doesnt necessarily say he could physical react at those speed, only that he can perceive those speed.

Here are the scans from Irredeemable 16 (page 19-21), just in case anyone wants to check it out.

If you notice, and here is the panel that talks about the picosecond:

It clearly says Battle Report was picosecond long, which makes sense because picosecond is a measure of time and time alone, in order to measure speed you would need distance per unit of time, for eg: 10 km/ hr, you cant have a measure of speed that says 30 second, 0.004 seconds, or 1 hour.

I think the very use of picosecond tend to convince people that this feat was somehow a picosecond reaction feat, when it wasnt.

He was arguably FLT because he saw the message, followed the ethernet web and reached there before the message was delivered.

#26 Posted by jaywray (631 posts) - - Show Bio

@killemall: Thanks for the clarification Killemall :)

Looking at how his powers work, and the feats he's capable of, Id say the result of this fight depends entirely on the state of mind Plutonian is in, is that fair to say?

Unless he has some examples of extreme combat speed Id say Bills wins if he doesn't play around and doesn't want Plutonian to reach full potential, but it's in his character to do so, it's a difficult one.

#27 Posted by AngryHulks (3001 posts) - - Show Bio

@jaywray said:

@killemall:

Thanks for the clarification Killemall :)

Looking at how his powers work, and the feats he's capable of, Id say the result of this fight depends entirely on the state of mind Plutonian is in, is that fair to say?

Unless he has some examples of extreme combat speed Id say Bills wins if he doesn't play around and doesn't want Plutonian to reach full potential, but it's in his character to do so, it's a difficult one.

It's psionic, but his power seems to work mostly subconsciously because he don't know how his power work. Because his power works subconsciously, he can still retains his invulnerability even when loosing conscious.

Just like John Bryne trying to explain Superman's strength is a form of tactile telekinesis, when he lift, he exert it physically but what's really happens is psionic.

#28 Edited by jaywray (631 posts) - - Show Bio

@jaywray said:

@killemall:

Thanks for the clarification Killemall :)

Looking at how his powers work, and the feats he's capable of, Id say the result of this fight depends entirely on the state of mind Plutonian is in, is that fair to say?

Unless he has some examples of extreme combat speed Id say Bills wins if he doesn't play around and doesn't want Plutonian to reach full potential, but it's in his character to do so, it's a difficult one.

It's psionic, but his power seems to work mostly subconsciously because he don't know how his power work. Because his power works subconsciously, he can still retains his invulnerability even when loosing conscious.

Just like John Bryne trying to explain Superman's strength is a form of tactile telekinesis, when he lift, he exert it physically but what's really happens is psionic.

I realise it's psionic, but even in the scan that Killemall provided it says he thinks he's strong, so at least on some level he's only as strong as his mind lets him, imo the way to defeat a character like that is to totally out match him before he gets the chance to have positive thoughts on the fight.

Is Plutonian himself aware of the fact that if he thinks he's strong, he is? because if so that would also strengthen the idea that if you outclass him early on you'd make him mentally weak.

If he says to Bills he can become stronger or somehow Bills realises he has huge potential then it would be very in character for Bills to let him reach that.

If not Bills gets bored after the first couple of seconds and blows the planet away.

#29 Edited by NeonGameWave (7712 posts) - - Show Bio

@thundergodswrath: It was stated by Piccolo but an important factor would be Bills` master Whis who is more powerful than him, he said Bills in a fit of rage would wipe out the entire Solar System with no effort at all or in the blink of an eye and Bills has been around as long as the Kais have, the Supreme Kais create worlds, stars and life the God of Destruction opposes that principle and destroys those very same things. Bills has been destroying stars, worlds, planets and sources of life for a very long time also he is the God of Destruction for the entire universe he traverses the entire universe in which he maintains balance by destroying what the Kais have created also Bills overpowered a SSJG Goku with 70% of his power and I believe at full power he would be able to destroy galaxies if he really wanted to. He is a cosmic being and within his positional power would be able to wipe out a galaxy since he maintains the entire universe, Kid Buu destroyed hundreds of worlds in no time and he did not even traverse the entire universe, Bills has been around for probably thousands of years, the Supreme Kais lifespan is around 75,000 years, Bills has been around since that time since all of the Supreme Kais know him and they fear him also. Even Shenron the Eternal Dragon knows and fears him, Bills has been maintaining the universe since then although sometimes he would forsake his duty as God of Destruction when bored. It would only make sense that he would be able to destroy a galaxy and he probably has before during his travels across the universe in travel speed although this term wouldn`t be considered as an official term I would describe his combat and travel speed as being MFTL just to give an idea of how fast he truly is so he would be able to travel across the entire universe easily, even when he held back against Goku he was still going at FTL speeds within combat and he also was able to outpace Goku`s Instant Transmission technique which is faster than light.

Kanzenshuu - Goku adds that Birus is the strongest in the universe; he even makes Kaiō and Kaiōshin wet themselves. Uis warns everyone to be careful what they say; if anything rubs Birus the wrong way, he will destroy the entire solar system in no time at all

.Kanzenshuu - When Shenlong hears Birus’s name, he panics! He did not know Birus-sama was there!

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/movie/battle-of-gods/synopsis/

#30 Posted by AngryHulks (3001 posts) - - Show Bio

@jaywray said:

@angryhulks said:

@jaywray said:

@killemall:

Thanks for the clarification Killemall :)

Looking at how his powers work, and the feats he's capable of, Id say the result of this fight depends entirely on the state of mind Plutonian is in, is that fair to say?

Unless he has some examples of extreme combat speed Id say Bills wins if he doesn't play around and doesn't want Plutonian to reach full potential, but it's in his character to do so, it's a difficult one.

It's psionic, but his power seems to work mostly subconsciously because he don't know how his power work. Because his power works subconsciously, he can still retains his invulnerability even when loosing conscious.

Just like John Bryne trying to explain Superman's strength is a form of tactile telekinesis, when he lift, he exert it physically but what's really happens is psionic.

I realise it's psionic, but even in the scan that Killemall provided it says he

thinks

he's strong, so at least on some level he's only as strong as his mind lets him, imo the way to defeat a character like that is to totally out match him before he gets the chance to have positive thoughts on the fight.

Is Plutonian himself aware of the fact that if he thinks he's strong, he is? because if so that would also strengthen the idea that if you outclass him early on you'd make him mentally weak.

If he says to Bills he can become stronger or somehow Bills realises he has huge potential then it would be very in character for Bills to let him reach that.

If not Bills gets bored after the first couple of seconds and blows the planet away.

Some people said that his power is entirely psionic, some people said that his power is physically set, but I think somewhere in-between. He was mind-controlled and is out-cold once and he still retains his invulnerability, although I could argue that his subconscious control over
"giving himself" strength is weaker than when he was under full control. I'm not good at putting this into word, but this is my thought.

#31 Posted by Killemall (18458 posts) - - Show Bio

@jaywray said:

@killemall:

Thanks for the clarification Killemall :)

No problem glad to help, although while i am very well versed with Plutonian i know little about Bills.

Looking at how his powers work, and the feats he's capable of, Id say the result of this fight depends entirely on the state of mind Plutonian is in, is that fair to say?

I dont think Plutonian state of mind has anything to do with it, he could potentially be omnipotent, "only if" he understood his power, point is he doesnt.

He has been beaten, my Modeus (in his GF's body), by Charybdis (one of his team mate) so its entire possible to beat him, he doesnt really have strength feats above Superman level being, he doesnt have reaction feats above Superman level being, he doesnt have skill feats about superman level being, what he however has is pretty awesome durability feat (i.e. not dying when Modeus was punching him with gravity of an entire star, to the point the gravity itself was warping reality around it), although to be fair Modeus loves him wanted to be his soul mate so i dont think killing him was ever in the agenda .

That being said if Bill has any claim to being a solar system buster or above Plutonian is outgunned, let alone Galaxy level that i have seen people claim.

Unless he has some examples of extreme combat speed Id say Bills wins if he doesn't play around and doesn't want Plutonian to reach full potential, but it's in his character to do so, it's a difficult one.

I can show you what his reaction feats are like, you make your own judement (he really doesnt have anything in terms of combat speed that should reasonably put him above Superman, apart from travel speed and essentially ability to go from 0 to light speed in no time for travel purpose).

You have seen the picosecond instance, here are others. I might have missed one or two minor reaction feats done for like 1 panel or so but apart from that, these are pretty much all his speed feats

Irredemable 02: Some random quantifiable speed , blocking bullets and stuffs

In the same issues he outraces a radio wave, so thats FTL or close to it because radio signal has to be first transformed from to light, then sent.

Irredeemable 21: Some more random speed feats, but he was in a virtual reality, so i suppose one could argue it doesnt count, its not really that grand anyways, just blocking bullets and stuffs

Irredeemable 30: More random unquantifiable speed feats, blocking bullets and flying fast

Irredeemable 34: Upon realizing his one true love, Betty, is under the control of his one true enemy, he flies to save her, apparently 2 buildings are torn apart because of his speed.

These are his speed feats, look at it and make your own judgement.

#32 Edited by jaywray (631 posts) - - Show Bio

@jaywray said:

I realise it's psionic, but even in the scan that Killemall provided it says he

thinks

he's strong, so at least on some level he's only as strong as his mind lets him, imo the way to defeat a character like that is to totally out match him before he gets the chance to have positive thoughts on the fight.

Is Plutonian himself aware of the fact that if he thinks he's strong, he is? because if so that would also strengthen the idea that if you outclass him early on you'd make him mentally weak.

If he says to Bills he can become stronger or somehow Bills realises he has huge potential then it would be very in character for Bills to let him reach that.

If not Bills gets bored after the first couple of seconds and blows the planet away.

Some people said that his power is entirely psionic, some people said that his power is physically set, but I think somewhere in-between. He was mind-controlled and is out-cold once and he still retains his invulnerability, although I could argue that his subconscious control over

"giving himself" strength is weaker than when he was under full control. I'm not good at putting this into word, but this is my thought.

I get what you mean about it being difficult to put into words, I myself don't quite know enough about the character to straight up say it's one way or the other, so Ill wait for someone who knows him better to have their say :)

... *wink wink nudge nudge* @killemall

#33 Posted by SlimJ87D (9593 posts) - - Show Bio

It says something happened in a picosecond. It's either the signal would reach its destination in a picosecond or Plutonian had a battle that took place in a picosecond. Regardless, both results prove that he has picosecond or above reaction time. There no no other way to interpret this. It's that simple.

If you have a battle that took place in a picosecond, you're FTL.

If a signal left a device and it was going to reach its destination in a picosecond and the signal LEFT before you did and you reacted to it and matched its speed. You're FTL. It's that simple, there's nothing more complicated about it.

#34 Edited by SlimJ87D (9593 posts) - - Show Bio

@jaywray said:

@angryhulks said:

@jaywray said:

@killemall:

Thanks for the clarification Killemall :)

Looking at how his powers work, and the feats he's capable of, Id say the result of this fight depends entirely on the state of mind Plutonian is in, is that fair to say?

Unless he has some examples of extreme combat speed Id say Bills wins if he doesn't play around and doesn't want Plutonian to reach full potential, but it's in his character to do so, it's a difficult one.

It's psionic, but his power seems to work mostly subconsciously because he don't know how his power work. Because his power works subconsciously, he can still retains his invulnerability even when loosing conscious.

Just like John Bryne trying to explain Superman's strength is a form of tactile telekinesis, when he lift, he exert it physically but what's really happens is psionic.

I realise it's psionic, but even in the scan that Killemall provided it says he

thinks

he's strong, so at least on some level he's only as strong as his mind lets him, imo the way to defeat a character like that is to totally out match him before he gets the chance to have positive thoughts on the fight.

Is Plutonian himself aware of the fact that if he thinks he's strong, he is? because if so that would also strengthen the idea that if you outclass him early on you'd make him mentally weak.

If he says to Bills he can become stronger or somehow Bills realises he has huge potential then it would be very in character for Bills to let him reach that.

If not Bills gets bored after the first couple of seconds and blows the planet away.

Some people said that his power is entirely psionic, some people said that his power is physically set, but I think somewhere in-between. He was mind-controlled and is out-cold once and he still retains his invulnerability, although I could argue that his subconscious control over

"giving himself" strength is weaker than when he was under full control. I'm not good at putting this into word, but this is my thought.

Both are wrong. He has both. he is physically strong and he has psionics. Think if Superman has science bending psionic powers. Go read my debunking thread on Plutonian. I have the scans where his parents say his physiology is not human and he began to get powers due to them when he was a baby. He's not a human that was given powers, people need to know this. He's a alien that has psionic powers.

Full post is here: http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles-7/discuss-and-debunk-a-feat-with-a-viner-721916/?page=13

#35 Posted by jaywray (631 posts) - - Show Bio

@jaywray said:

@killemall:

Thanks for the clarification Killemall :)

No problem glad to help, although while i am very well versed with Plutonian i know little about Bills.

Looking at how his powers work, and the feats he's capable of, Id say the result of this fight depends entirely on the state of mind Plutonian is in, is that fair to say?

I dont think Plutonian state of mind has anything to do with it, he could potentially be omnipotent, "only if" he understood his power, point is he doesnt.

He has been beaten, my Modeus (in his GF's body), by Charybdis (one of his team mate) so its entire possible to beat him, he doesnt really have strength feats above Superman level being, he doesnt have reaction feats above Superman level being, he doesnt have skill feats about superman level being, what he however has is pretty awesome durability feat (i.e. not dying when Modeus was punching him with gravity of an entire star, to the point the gravity itself was warping reality around it), although to be fair Modeus loves him wanted to be his soul mate so i dont think killing him was ever in the agenda .

That being said if Bill has any claim to being a solar system buster or above Plutonian is outgunned, let alone Galaxy level that i have seen people claim.

Unless he has some examples of extreme combat speed Id say Bills wins if he doesn't play around and doesn't want Plutonian to reach full potential, but it's in his character to do so, it's a difficult one.

I can show you what his reaction feats are like, you make your own judement (he really doesnt have anything in terms of combat speed that should reasonably put him above Superman, apart from travel speed and essentially ability to go from 0 to light speed in no time for travel purpose).

You have seen the picosecond instance, here are others. I might have missed one or two minor reaction feats done for like 1 panel or so but apart from that, these are pretty much all his speed feats


Well to be honest not many on this board actually truly know too much about Bills since none have seen the movie, much less had a chance to actually sit down and examine it.

But from the long and detailed synopsis on Kazenshuu (http://www.kanzenshuu.com/movie/battle-of-gods/synopsis/ here it is in case you want to read it) we can basically confirm Bills is a Solar System buster, it's not statements from Bills himself, but from King Kai/Bills more powerful master Uis, 2 reliable sources IMO, there's another one going around where apparently Piccolo states the Galaxy will be wiped out, but I personally think that's just hopeful fans looking for some debate ammo.

It's difficult to say what his combat speed is from the clips I've seen, but according to a few who've actually seen the movie his combat speed is FTL, and his travel speed is certainly MFTL since his job is basically the same as Galactus (Id imagine on a smaller scale of course)

That's a nice durability feat though, but was it the for of a star or simply the gravity similar to what a star would produce? Don't get me wrong, both are nice feats it's just that the former is more impressive.

Judging from the scans that you provided the "picosecond" instance seems to be somewhat of an outliner in contrast to his other feats which id put him at very high Hypersonic speeds still, just that the Picosecond one seems a bit out of place amongst them lol.

I wont deny that he has FTL reaction speed, but it'd be like saying Kid Goku was FTL since he out raced Tiens Solar flare light attack haha.

Again though cheers for the scans Killemall, Plutonian actually seems like a solid character!


@slimj87d said:

It says something happened in a picosecond. It's either the signal would reach its destination in a picosecond or Plutonian had a battle that took place in a picosecond. Regardless, both results prove that he has picosecond or above reaction time. There no no other way to interpret this. It's that simple.

If you have a battle that took place in a picosecond, you're FTL.

If a signal left a device and it was going to reach its destination in a picosecond and the signal LEFT before you did and you reacted to it and matched its speed. You're FTL. It's that simple, there's nothing more complicated about it.


I never said he wasn't I just wanted clarification for the difference between FTL and MFTL.

As Killemall said though, Picosecond is a measure of time, not distance, so that feat is quite debatable.

Although as I said, seems like a clear outliner if it really was.

#36 Posted by AngryHulks (3001 posts) - - Show Bio

@slimj87d said:

@angryhulks said:

@jaywray said:

@angryhulks said:

@jaywray said:

@killemall:

Thanks for the clarification Killemall :)

Looking at how his powers work, and the feats he's capable of, Id say the result of this fight depends entirely on the state of mind Plutonian is in, is that fair to say?

Unless he has some examples of extreme combat speed Id say Bills wins if he doesn't play around and doesn't want Plutonian to reach full potential, but it's in his character to do so, it's a difficult one.

It's psionic, but his power seems to work mostly subconsciously because he don't know how his power work. Because his power works subconsciously, he can still retains his invulnerability even when loosing conscious.

Just like John Bryne trying to explain Superman's strength is a form of tactile telekinesis, when he lift, he exert it physically but what's really happens is psionic.

I realise it's psionic, but even in the scan that Killemall provided it says he

thinks

he's strong, so at least on some level he's only as strong as his mind lets him, imo the way to defeat a character like that is to totally out match him before he gets the chance to have positive thoughts on the fight.

Is Plutonian himself aware of the fact that if he thinks he's strong, he is? because if so that would also strengthen the idea that if you outclass him early on you'd make him mentally weak.

If he says to Bills he can become stronger or somehow Bills realises he has huge potential then it would be very in character for Bills to let him reach that.

If not Bills gets bored after the first couple of seconds and blows the planet away.

Some people said that his power is entirely psionic, some people said that his power is physically set, but I think somewhere in-between. He was mind-controlled and is out-cold once and he still retains his invulnerability, although I could argue that his subconscious control over

"giving himself" strength is weaker than when he was under full control. I'm not good at putting this into word, but this is my thought.

Both are wrong. He has both. he is physically strong and he has psionics. Think if Superman has science bending psionic powers. Go read my debunking thread on Plutonian. I have the scans where his parents say his physiology is not human and he began to get powers due to them when he was a baby. He's not a human that was given powers, people need to know this. He's a alien that has psionic powers.

Full post is here: http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles-7/discuss-and-debunk-a-feat-with-a-viner-721916/?page=13

It's still possible that his psionic power still works subconsciously, he don't need 100% conscious control of it to maintain his default physiology. Plutonian never realize how his powers work anyway, toddler or adult.

#37 Posted by Killemall (18458 posts) - - Show Bio

@jaywray said:

I realise it's psionic, but even in the scan that Killemall provided it says he

thinks

he's strong, so at least on some level he's only as strong as his mind lets him, imo the way to defeat a character like that is to totally out match him before he gets the chance to have positive thoughts on the fight.

Pretty much so, but the point was he seem to have a set level of durability, while it "should" be possible from him to increase his durability at will, I have found no evidence of him demonstrating it, and i am quite certain he has no other appearences apart from Irredeemable and Incorruptible series. He has been hurt, he has been beaten before as well, so he is by no means unbeatable, and since he doesnt know his true potential he is what he is always shown to be Superman level character with higher pain tolerance .

Lets look at some example, these are mostly instances where he lost, but dont get me wrong, i am not trying to downplay him, he has some pretty good feats too, just shows that it is entirely possible for him to be beaten, and his ability to appreantly make him "hard as diamond" hasnt been shown to help.

Irredeemable 08: Beaten by his team mate Charybdis

Irredeemable 18: This is his lowest showing so please, dont make a judgement based on this , he gets one shotted by an alien gun.

The real point i was trying to show here is that his durability drops if he is caught unaware.

Here is another of such instance

Irredeemable 33: So Max Damage, frankly whose actual stats have not been revealed, whose best feat is limited to lifted Cars and Trucks (there or there abouts in terms with Luke Cage , that i think fits because he is essentially bullet proof) was able to make Tony bleed with 1 punch, while Tony has in other time has looked a lot durable, and its because he was caught off guard and did not expect Max to be able to punch him while at high speed.

BTW Max is not where close to being on Plutonian's league, he got stomped in this instance, and when Plutonian went bad, seeing Tony Max's first words were I saw the face of a god.

Irredeemable 35: His best feat till date, Tony's gf whose ability is gravity manipulation gets taken over by Modeus, who start talking pills to increase her powers, and is jacked up to the point she can pull the entire gravity of a star, her power were distorting space, Tony is bloody and near death, although killing Tony was never actually on the agenda i would think, because Modeus is gay and in love with Tony.

So yeah he can be beaten he is not unbetable, that brings me back to my last response, if Bills is anywhere close to solar system buster (which would given me more power than what Betty was dissing out) the battle would end pretty much like this.

The only reason he was not outright killed here was because:

1. Modeus loves him (the idea of his arch enemy being in love with him is pretty cool to think about :p )

2. Qubit arrives in the next issue, giving Tony the opportunity to kill Betty (which also take away a possible argument that Tony was holding back out of love for Betty, because well he outright kills her)

Is Plutonian himself aware of the fact that if he thinks he's strong, he is? because if so that would also strengthen the idea that if you outclass him early on you'd make him mentally weak.

There is absolutely no evidence of this, he met his parents and learned that he is from a heritage of nearly omnipotent being, sadly they never taught him how to do things that his parents were able to do, and against them he was totally helpless. The whole point was plutonian meeting people whose powers dwarfed his own.

There is not a single evidence of Plutonian making himself too durable , beyond what he is normally shown (superman level being) to a point he cant be hurt at all, nor is there any evidence in any of his issue of him making him enemies weak to the point he could one shot them.

In fact, everytime he is face being closer to him in terms of power, he has struggled.

#38 Posted by SlimJ87D (9593 posts) - - Show Bio

@jaywray: but that's exactly why it proves he's FTL. Picosecond is a measurement of time. Something took place in that time and it happened in a picosecond. A whole battle or he raced the signal. I'm just pointing out that there's nothing else the picosecond can be referring to. That's all.

@angryhulks: You need to read my post. Aliens cloned and grafted his skin. When they did it had natural durability to it.

But it's clear as day that his parents state his "NATIVE" characteristics are far beyond that of Earthlings.

So again, when we talk about super powers, we talk about things that humans can't do. Things that alienate another persons physical characteristics from ours. That's what a power is to us, where these aren't powers to his people. And his parents clearly state that their characteristics are far above ours.

Both clearly prove that he's naturally has powers on top of his psionic abilities.

#39 Posted by Killemall (18458 posts) - - Show Bio

@slimj87d said:

It says something happened in a picosecond. It's either the signal would reach its destination in a picosecond or Plutonian had a battle that took place in a picosecond. Regardless, both results prove that he has picosecond or above reaction time. There no no other way to interpret this. It's that simple.

If you have a battle that took place in a picosecond, you're FTL.

If a signal left a device and it was going to reach its destination in a picosecond and the signal LEFT before you did and you reacted to it and matched its speed. You're FTL. It's that simple, there's nothing more complicated about it.

I disagree.

Its pretty clear not the battle but the battle report was a picosecond length

Also we actually see the battle on panel, or at least flash back to it:

Doesnt look anything like it took place in picosecond.

Then we see him notice something flickering

And then comes the picosecond scan :)

#40 Edited by Saren (25559 posts) - - Show Bio

@killemall said:

Irredeemable 33: So Max Damage, frankly whose actual stats have not been revealed, whose best feat is limited to lifted Cars and Trucks (there or there abouts in terms with Luke Cage , that i think fits because he is essentially bullet proof) was able to make Tony bleed with 1 punch, while Tony has in other time has looked a lot durable, and its because he was caught off guard and did not expect Max to be able to punch him while at high speed.

BTW Max is not where close to being on Plutonian's league, he got stomped in this instance, and when Plutonian went bad, seeing Tony Max's first words were I saw the face of a god.

Context applies here. Max's strength and durability increase exponentially the longer he stays awake without going to sleep. When he goes to sleep, his stats reset back to zero. I believe (since it's been a while since I read the series) it was stated in an issue of Incorruptible that to raise his stats to the Plutonian's level, Max had to stay awake longer than he'd ever done before in his life, so he definitely wasn't at Luke Cage's level when he was fighting the Plutonian. Though I don't know whether it was during this fight or during a much longer, cooler fight that the two had in Max's book.

Moderator
#41 Posted by Killemall (18458 posts) - - Show Bio

@jaywray said:

That's a nice durability feat though, but was it the for of a star or simply the gravity similar to what a star would produce? Don't get me wrong, both are nice feats it's just that the former is more impressive.

Again though cheers for the scans Killemall, Plutonian actually seems like a solid character!

No problem, happy to help :)

And Betty's power is gravity manipulation, Modeus in her body takes pills to increase her power, when fighting plutonian the gravity is distroting space.

Everything points to it being the latter, gravity of the star as opposed to entire power of the star.

After all what else would you expect from an extremely amped up gravity manipulator?

#42 Posted by Killemall (18458 posts) - - Show Bio


Context applies here. Max's strength and durability increase exponentially the longer he stays awake without going to sleep. When he goes to sleep, his stats reset back to zero. I believe (since it's been a while since I read the series) it was stated in an issue of Incorruptible that to raise his stats to the Plutonian's level, Max had to stay awake longer than he'd ever done before in his life, so he definitely wasn't at Luke Cage's level when he was fighting the Plutonian. Though I don't know whether it was during this fight or during a much longer, cooler fight that the two had in Max's book.

There was no mention of how long Max hasnt slept and given how the fight ended the moment Tony hits him i would say he really wasnt much higher than what he normally is shown to be.

Point was when Plutonian is caught unaware he does tend to hurt and be taken down quicker than normal.

Had Max not slept for ages wouldnt you expect the fight to go a lot longer than it did, like good 5 pages in his other fights?

The fight he had in Incorroptable, lasted good number of pages, this was pretty much one hit stomp, and its Tony within the bound of his character before going bad.

#43 Edited by SlimJ87D (9593 posts) - - Show Bio

@slimj87d said:

It says something happened in a picosecond. It's either the signal would reach its destination in a picosecond or Plutonian had a battle that took place in a picosecond. Regardless, both results prove that he has picosecond or above reaction time. There no no other way to interpret this. It's that simple.

If you have a battle that took place in a picosecond, you're FTL.

If a signal left a device and it was going to reach its destination in a picosecond and the signal LEFT before you did and you reacted to it and matched its speed. You're FTL. It's that simple, there's nothing more complicated about it.

I disagree.

Its pretty clear not the battle but the battle report was a picosecond length

Also we actually see the battle on panel, or at least flash back to it:

Doesnt look anything like it took place in picosecond.

Then we see him notice something flickering

And then comes the picosecond scan :)

That clearly doesn't mean a blink was in a picosecond. Read the whole thing and also notice the comma, it's a change in subject meaning that he's comparing the speed of something to the barest blinking meaning the tiny movement of a eyelid.

"A picosecond long battle report." Again, it states a battle report that was a picosecond long.

#44 Posted by Killemall (18458 posts) - - Show Bio

@slimj87d said:

That clearly doesn't mean a blink was in a picosecond. Read the whole thing and also notice the comma, it's a change in subject meaning that he's comparing the speed of something to the barest blinking meaning the tiny movement of a eyelid.

"A picosecond long battle report." Again, it states a battle report that was a picosecond long.

Yes i understand those were 2 different sentence what i was drawing attent to was, in was when he looked into the signal he saw the picosecond battle report, and hence it was the length of the report.

And the second part says what i am saying. The battle report itself was summarized in picosecond, not the actual battle.

In fact we see the actual battle which certain doesnt look like was complete in a picosecond because it starts from Tony fighting Modeus, to him finally blowing up that huge conductor.

#45 Posted by jaywray (631 posts) - - Show Bio

@jaywray said:

That's a nice durability feat though, but was it the for of a star or simply the gravity similar to what a star would produce? Don't get me wrong, both are nice feats it's just that the former is more impressive.

Again though cheers for the scans Killemall, Plutonian actually seems like a solid character!

No problem, happy to help :)

And Betty's power is gravity manipulation, Modeus in her body takes pills to increase her power, when fighting plutonian the gravity is distroting space.

Everything points to it being the latter, gravity of the star as opposed to entire power of the star.

After all what else would you expect from an extremely amped up gravity manipulator?

Well, after reading through all the scans, in my opinion, Bills wins but would be impressed with Plutonian, hell Uis would probably offer Plutonian the title of god of destruction for when Bills retires haha :)

But if Sun gravity levels can hurt him, Solar system busting is on another level is all. Still seems like a pretty awesome character.

#46 Edited by SlimJ87D (9593 posts) - - Show Bio

@killemall:

I think we really need to send Mark Waid an e-mail or letter to figure out what he's really trying to convey to us there.

I'll just leave it at this. If what you are saying is true then Bills can probably beat Plutonian because he would be massively faster than Plutonian is and would land 100s of strikes before Plutonian knew what happened to him.

But if not then Plutonian will probably win it due to his psionic abilities affecting Bill, his massive durability to tank star energized punches, his telepathic abilities to see what Bills has planned and his intangibility.

#47 Posted by Killemall (18458 posts) - - Show Bio

@slimj87d: Unless there is evidence that Bill has actually blitzed someone , apart from just dodging Goku's punches i wouldnt count on blitz being a viable option, unless prove so, and its not only against Plutonian but a lot other character (same way regardless of who Surfer is fighting unless its out of character there should be no blitz)

The second part is questionable as we have never seen Plutonian conciously use that ability, but i know we have agreed to disagreed previously :) better to leave it at that.

You have your reason to believe one, i have mine, athought i do honestly respect your opinion :)

Its pretty much like me vs samules in Thor or Zeus thread, he has his opinion i have mine, we most often than not disagree but we both respect each other opinions.

#48 Edited by Killemall (18458 posts) - - Show Bio

@jaywray: Its a pretty interesting series, i am a bigger fan of Incorruptible rather than Irredeemable, the former is the story of Max Damage, Plutonians villain, who once realizing that Plutnonian has gone bad and knowing that he is godlike and near impossible to stop, has a change of his heart and becomes a hero, while the second is just opposite a hero turned villain because someone broke his heart and in a moment of anger, he ended up killing thousands.

The most badass moment of the series was when Plutonian, physically sinks the entire Singapore under water, and that pretty much was his last straw, from where everyone knew Plutnonian cant be redeemed anymore.

#49 Posted by SlimJ87D (9593 posts) - - Show Bio