Bills vs Broly, Kid Buu, and Omega Shenron

@scouterv: Unfortunately that's not what they're going for. Their claim is that since GT Goku is stronger than GT Buu then GT Goku is stronger than DBZ Goku. That is the entire basis of their argument. And as those claims are entirely baseless with no supportive evidence, it further damns GT.

@xlr87t3:omega shenron outclassed ssj4 goku who outclassed cell and frieza in base form so i think this "kid buu> omega shenron" logic is incorrect

@reikai:

GT, whether considered to be canon or not, was meant to be a sequel to Dragonball Z. So one assumes that all the events of DBZ have taken place in the GT universe. Your argument is that all the events of DBZ have taken place in the GT universe, except that for some reason all the DBZ characters were far weaker. So how strong was "GT Buu" then? As strong as DBZ Nail? How strong was "GT Raditz"? Could he even beat DBZ farmer? Your assumption that somehow every character had been incredibly weak before GT started isn't only baseless, it lacks any intuitive sense.

You dislike GT so much that you've created a fantasy universe for it in your mind in which the characters are magically weaker to align with your wishful desire that DBZ's characters be superior in power.

GT wasn't a great show, but that doesn't change the fact that GT Power > DBZ Power. Toei didn't get together and say, "Let's make the sequel to DBZ take place in an alternate Dragonball universe in which all the characters are weak as sh*t."

@shane94: It doesn't matter what GT was intended to be. It's little more than Fan-Fiction. And not even good fanfic. I've read better fanfic than GT. Hell, I've written better fanfic than GT.

And again, can't assume all events of DBZ take place in GT timeline as they appear, nor that they share the same pl/abilities as the original timeline. Again, Future Trunks is evidence of differences in alternate timelines, and latter films made canon by Toriyama disclose events and characters that're not present in GT.

What screws GT the most is its own Sourcebook. It has more plotholes than half of Superman's comic career. One of its major faults is stating that Pan couldn't got SSJ because her Saiyan blood is too thin. Which completely ignores itself when the series shows Goku and Vegeta jr, the great-great-grandchildren of their namesakes who'd have like 1/16th Saiyan blood and still turn Super Saiyan. Which completely eliminates the stated reason why Pan couldn't do so.

And as we see with DBO, Heroes, Xenoverse, etc, Females with Saiyan Blood can go SSJ. DBO was future canon by Toriyama, and being re-adapted by Dimps into Xenoverse so everyone gets the experience.

Frankly, Episode of Bardock, despite being utterly improbable, was still better than GT. And made a far better parody. And even then, could still be explained by Time Paradoxes in both DBO and Xenoverse.

Kid Buu is powerful, Broly is very powerful, and Omega Shenron is extremely powerful. But Bills is the God of Destruction. Buu, Broly, or omega shenron none of them are gods. Bills proved himself great amongst everybody including other DBZ villains and Goku. Dont mess with a cat!

WHO THE HELL IS BILLS, its Beerus btw......

as for the versus going by feats alone Beerus decapitates the other three, going by scaling from z to GT im sure you could make it so Omega is stronger but..........thats not a good way to debate.........

also beerus is not mftl whiss staff is but not himself, beerus has the potential of being FTL, he can bust solar systems in an INSTANT, can take planet busters at the very LEAST, ect...... this is not even close lol

Thanks for the call-out, but honestly I've given up trying to reason with these types of Broly fanatics.

@reikai:

I believe you, GT was tacky and unimaginative. But if you were to create a fan fic, even a poor one, where you created a character that you said was stronger then Majin Buu, I would assume that your character is stronger than the Majin Buu I know from DBZ. Unless you implied otherwise, I would have no reason to believe that you're referring to a Majin Buu that has any power difference than DBZ Buu. Trunks explicitly states that the androids in his timeline are weaker, but there's no implication anywhere in GT that any of the characters aren't who they were in DBZ and have done anything but increase their power since DBZ.

GT does have plotholes, but its far more reasonable to assume that one character increased in strength (albeit a lot) than, without any implication, to assume that the entire universe of characters is weaker than the original.

@havoc_wreaker:

Scaling's a more reliable way to debate than feats when it comes to DBZ. If we only look at feats, Broly destroys everyone, something only naive Broly fanboys convince themselves of.

@shane94: I actually use the Power Level system in my own internal media and connect with the Main Canon, not just reference its existence. And I wouldn't assume my own creations are any more powerful than the MC until actually doing something to prove it. Like actually wrecking solar systems and not just mouthing off about what they can do.

Also there's nothing showing that GT figures got stronger. Everyone except Goku stopped training and he toned it down for Uub. Literally everyone stopped doing everything and when $hit finally started going down on Earth, Vegeta tried to get back into training and was having difficulty with gravity levels he'd already have mastered in DBZ.

There is an abundance of plot holes in GT. They tried to mix older DB elements with the Z action and it failed quite miserably. I mean cripes, they got controlled and beat up by the ParaPara brothers that use Sound. By this stage, Sound should be the slowest thing in the universe to them, yet they're getting beat by it.

And let's not forget Luud that, for some reason, none of them could hurt or destroy without striking its nucleus from inside and outside of it. If Myuu could already make something that was effectively indestructible, there'd be no point to making anything that isn't.

One of the biggest and most ridiculous plot holes in the entire series is right at the very start with the Blackstar Balls. If they were created by Kami before his initial split from King Piccolo, then they still wouldn't exist or be active once fused with Piccolo who is now a separate figure. And there is absolutely zero reason for The Namek to have created a set of Dragon Balls that destroys the planet within a year after using them. Since Earth didn't have adequate space travel then and Kami clearly forgets about having his own ship anyway, it makes them pointlessly dangerous.

Nvm that the only way Pilaf would've ever heard about them was if they'd been used at some point. And if that was the case, the Earth would've long since been destroyed since, as we've seen, Kami's ship is pretty damn slow next to a Saiyan Pod. So there is no way for the BSB to have ever been used, nor for information about them to have ever been circulated once the other Dragon Balls had been made by Kami.

Plus there is zero reason why Kami or Piccolo would leave the set intact when knowing the extreme danger it possessed. Forget the fact they would've been destroyed during the Buu Saga anyway when Super Buu and Gotenks pretty much obliterated the Lookout during their fight.

So let's put it this way. The entire premise of the story they were trying to do was complete impossible bull$hit right from the start. And they still ran with it. There is no sense, no logic, and clearly no writing talent that went into GT. Which is why it fails so much.

Well, the basis of this forum is:

Billis against Omega, Buu, and Broly.

For the sake of the argument, you have to use an Omega Shenron that is extremely powerful.

However, it's honestly moot, in my opinion. Shenron was scared to death of Beerus (I can't imagine Omega wouldn't be either,), Broly wouldn't stand much chance unless he could go Super Saiyan 4, and Kid Buu would simply be too stupid to actually be scared. He'd get frustrated, but he can't beat Beerus.

@scouterv said:

No, we don't. Because it's not proven. The only actual threat is Brolly because he's still the only one to have ever annihilated a galaxy on screen.

I was going to reply to him directly but you nailed all the points.

I also could write a post full of DBZ plot-holes and inconsistencies (or misinterpreted blatant information to create them), but that doesnt make the show's universe any less continuous.

# what if broly somehow became a super saiyan god !!! So will he be able to defeat lord bills ??

@reikai: At this point, I really don't think I'll be able to change your mind if you really think Broly is stronger than Buu and Omega Shenron (not sure if trolling).

But if your fan fictions explicitly state the powers of your characters in relativity to the canon, then that is an exception no different than Future Trunks' statement about the androids. GT never makes such a statement.

And yes, as Fufuh said, GT is fairly plot-hole ridden, but DBZ has its own share of inconsistencies. But most GT's problems don't really pertain to this debate.

The Dragon Ball franchise follows a pretty consistent pattern of generally having its characters growing stronger, even between sagas and series as well as introducing new, stronger characters. It would be very uncharacteristic for Goku, particularly, to slow his training to the point of becoming weaker. Even if Uub did slow him down, he'd likely just train on his own additionaly.

Agreed. The creator of Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z actually helped with character designs, and gladly enjoyed the GT Series. Proof enough to me he accepts it lol.

Bills is pure talk, he has no feats whatsoever, so he loses this big time

Really..............21:15

since ssg is a semi ss4 (anyone who saw lord slug can see what im talking about) bills make take buu and broly but omega shenron flattens him as two ss4s could not beat omega .

Team based off power levels

bills stomps

@sirfizzwhizz: Toriyama said it was entertaining. That's all. Never said he approved of it. He did some designs and that was all, moved off to other projects. He had nothing to do with the writing process.

If the creators of GT had any sense, they would've included the Actual reason why Pan didn't go SSJ in the show, which Toriyama himself explained in an interview. Basically he said he just couldn't get a picture in his head of what a female SSJ would look like, so he never drew it. That's all. That was the sole reason. And it was apparent the GT writers and animators couldn't figure out how to do it on their own, which I would find insulting to them given Fans have created excellent working artwork for Female SSJ's for many years.

@shane94:

The Dragon Ball franchise follows a pretty consistent pattern of generally having its characters growing stronger, even between sagas and series as well as introducing new, stronger characters. It would be very uncharacteristic for Goku, particularly, to slow his training to the point of becoming weaker. Even if Uub did slow him down, he'd likely just train on his own additionaly.

But as I've said, there's nothing to support GT Goku being stronger. Everything about the story, visuals, even official source books all point him out as being weaker than his original counterpart. There's nothing to support it and using power scaling doesn't function because it's non-canon and doesn't link with the original series because of Toriyama. It's an Alternate Timeline, and as I've shown and proven, it doesn't make them equal to the Main Canon.

"History of Future Trunks" was evidence of this. Even DBZ itself showed the inconsistencies and variations in timelines. Cell was from a future where he killed Trunks after Trunks had managed to destroy the Androids. Which meant the Trunks in that timeline wasn't as strong as the one we know that returns to the future, as Mirai Trunks not only kills 17&18, but Imperfect Cell as well.

And thanks to the likes of DBO and Xenoverse, the former worked on directly by Toriyama himself, DBZ is a multiverse with infinite alternate timelines, so now there is and will be various forms of canon which can effectively make even Fan creations canon to some small degree. Being the prime hero to save time and history is quite a thing and allows the PC to fight villains old and new, even involving the more recent "Battle of Gods" film.

@micah: so... what is that supposed to prove? I've seen that already, it's the lamest DBZ fight I've ever seen and I don't see Bills busting a galaxy or anything...

Did you somehow miss the part of him busting 7 planets back to back with sheer striking force/strength and insane speed near the end of the video? You said he had no feats, and that's clearly an impressive feat :/

@fufuh: do it

Only name them from the manga

This.

I PM'd you, considering that it doesnt add anything to the thread.

@micah: It may be, but such a thing does not prove he is above Kid buu or even cell who is a star sytem buster

@sirfizzwhizz: Toriyama never said he accepted it, he only said it was entertaining, GT is non-canon and is also a big load of crap. It is pitiful compared to Z, really disgusting, the only thing I liked was gogueta SSJ4

@pablosl: Well he did KO a Super Saiyan 3 Goku in two shots. A more powerful Goku who was previously able to stalemate Kid Buu in combat as a SS3, and has since increased in power over the years. Then he did take down Good Buu without any effort, an opponent who while being weaker than Kid Buu wasn't that far off from Kid Buu's power. And Cell was defeated by a SS2 Teen Gohan............Beerus KO'ed an adult Ultimate Gohan with one kick to the gut.......

BUMP

Omega wins, He toyed with ss4 goku it was also stated that goku only needed ss1 to face rilldo who was as strong as Buu only god know how strong ss4 is.

I've pretty much had my say in this. It's a mistake to rely so much on feats as they're too inconsistent in Dragonball. And there's just not enough of an argument here to support the idea of a GT weakiverse so drastically different from the original canon that Omega wouldn't own through power scaling.

I'd say buu would last almost as much as omega shenron. Keep in mind that he was getting worn out trying to beat a MUCH weaker version of himself, just imagine someone trying to beat him. Also, he almost blocked a spirit bomb. Keeping in mind how many people would live on earth at the time and having an average power level of 5. Then you have fighters like hercule will have somewhere around 20-50, then the z fighters. This put buus power at around 40 billion. As an indicator to how powerful that is, ssj3 goku had around prob around 720 million. Beerus would win though. Yes, he used 70% power, goku only blocked the 70% power move with the true ssjg power. I'd say if you bump broly to even just super sayian 3, the result might change.

Omega shenron is the greatest Threat to Bills ........ Bills solo The team ...... Then OS solo him :D

It comes down to beerus vs omega it could go either way honestly beerus has better durublty but omega can regenerate almost a effectively as buu.

Most of you have probably watched dragonball z in english and thats why ur so damned confused about everything. Smh and you all sound stupid saying omega shenron could wipe beerus there are twelve other god of destruction mind you and hes not in the top ranking of whis's deciples. Not only that omega shenron is still not on beerus level. beerus would annihilate omega sshenron the only real threat is kid buu. Becus it did take the whole universe to kill him, they even said it goku asked the whole universe and even had to go super saiyan to detonate meaning he had put most of his power in to it. The only thereat to beerus is kid buu. Because the simple fact of the matter kid buu strength speed skill is only matched by his strongest opponent which he can overpower when and if needed. If he fights a god of destruction he doesnt need to absorb them he only absorbed the kai becuz he was tricked into doing it. The good karma weakened his evil power. Smh yall argueing and you dont know the damn facts. It comes down to kid buu and beerus and kid buu would over power beerus if he doesnt instant wipe because kid buu is living malignance malicee. But like a super intelligent baby it recognizes its own life but it simple nature takes everything as a game and ir thinks of it as toys a baby gets mmad he breaks toys buu gets mad hell give whis a real fight.... but honesty beerus would sense the danger of kid buu and wipe him out 1st then mob o shenron and brolli

No way they can beat him.

They would need god power.

No one of them has god power.

In the other hand they are too powerfull.

A fight with no end till Mario comes and jumps to the head of all and kills them.

Beerus woud win with little to no effort.

According to Whis, it would take Three full powerd SSGSS to defeat Bills (Two SSGSS to give him the match he always wanted.) at their very best. Omega Shenron is NOT winning this.

Omega Shenron solos. Base on feats Kid Buu can match him lol. Broly has wiped out a galaxy. He solos.

if you take Bills to fight SS4 Gogeta to fight Bills on xenoverse, Bills states that SS4 Gogeta is around regular Super Sayajin God. I don't think Shenron can win this.

Shenron solos, then slaughters his teammates for being useless.

Hilarious! Likely This, but I don't know if it would still be enough

Beerus godstomps.

Omega Shenron solos

Beerus one-shots them all.

Omega Shenron isn't losing to anyone that SSj1 Vegeta could tag in a rage-blitz.

Even though Vegeta rage-blitzed but could do no harm to the recipient of said blitz whatsoever...

Context -- It is a 'thing'..

@sirfizzwhizz: how does kid buu match beerus?